Oh buffy so very true. I did two toilet seats in one day, and didn't get anyhting for it.<P>This has been a most interesting evening, has made me see somethings a little differently then before. <P>Would still like someone elses take on the e mail from WH asking me to let go and to get on with my life. But must go to bed as 16 yo D and I are sleeping in the basement and she wont go down by herself and it is almost 1 am here, it's not like when I was in VA and this was my time to be on here cause of job.<P>Anyone can share their thoughts about WH e mail I will check in the am. Good night!! Sleep tight and I will include all in my prayers. dawn

Hi Faye,<P>Good to see you. I've yet to email you. Soon, if that's okay, Hon.<P>I think males, at least my H, is a bit confused. He always wanted me to make my own money, have a job I loved, and of course take care of him and everything else ... which BTW, I did. So, he created and nutured his own Frankenstien.<P>Now he is with someone who can't do ANYTHING but ... well you know. <P>Jo<P><p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited September 03, 2001).]

Oh No, I must be needing to go to bed...S&L is getting to make sense to me....I won't think about that now...maybe everything will look better in the morning. Heck, I'm on an old movie kick tonight aren't I...Wizard of Oz..now Gond With the Wind.<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> a needy clingy certifiable loser (and ugly to boot)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B> <P>S&L...YOU'VE MET WH'S OW!!!!! Did you have a beer or two with her.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>in the meantime I met ow, who made it clear I mattered to her, my feelings, my thoughts, my fears... they mattered, and she needed someone strong to nurture and protect her, she was emotionally vulnerable (to me, had closed off to her H long ago cause he did not take good care of her emotionally). It wasn't faked, she wasn't conniving, I just fit her, and she me, and it clicked <HR></BLOCKQUOTE></B><P>Well, S&L you seem to be in the same boat as our WH...looking for someone to matter to...someone who needs you...someone to protect and nurture.<P>And you said you like a strong woman...men are so full of inconsistency...you're right. I've heard my WH say the same things...how his OW's husband didn't treat her right...how he use to beat her....never let her spend money...how she came from such a bad family background.<BR>And you're right, he says and will tell anyone that I am wonderful...a really good wife and mother...very qifted.<BR>But his need is so great to be the protector and the caregiver that he was willing to give all that up for what little she had to offer....that's how important it is to him. Must be some message in that, huh.<P>Hey, go to bed S&L...at least you have a wife in yours...you know you really do spend too much time here.<P><BR>Faye<P> <P> <P> <p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited September 03, 2001).]

Same ole message snl - get off the friggin computer, hold thinker.<P>btw - ARGGGGGGHHHHHH too tired to go on with that....

OK!! Good answers, all.<P>I'm glad I started this thread, but not sure if it answers my questions....hmmm....maybe that's because my H's situation is "unique" (huh, yeah, like who's ISN'T??)<P>See, my H LEFT. PERIOD. NO warning. NO "talk," NO threats (from either side), I had no inkling there was an "OW." Well, OK, maybe just a little but that was only AFTER he'd left.<P>We were getting along "fine" (by my perspective), NO fighting, etc. This, to me, was his fear of bringing up problems because 1) it would have resulted in a huge fight, and him being BEATEN DOWN by me and 2) it probably wouldn't have changed anything anyway.<P>So, I figure he did what he did (plot, plan, talk to OW - who HELPED plot and plan this move) until all ducks were in a row, and POOF!! He's gone with a note: "I couldn't handle confrontation at this time. The m is over, I filed for d." That's it!! STILL (to this day) NO mention of OW - from him OR me. Just that he is leaving!!! I had to put the pieces together all by myself. I have. We had other problems, yes, we did. BUT nothing we ever fought over, just disagreements, who doesn't?!?! Enough to end our M over? I didn't think so.<P>Speaking to OW being "needy" and "clingy" - OURS (see, I figure she belongs to BOTH of us now, as she'll forever be a part of OUR lives) is not. A very capable, hard-working woman, owns her own house, takes care of business, holds a very stressful job (H3LL, you could be talking about ME, except for the FAT, UGLY part! )<P>So WHAT did he run TO HER FOR?!?! Well, in our case, part of our problems.....too many "responsibilities" here. We own 6 dogs, H HATED taking care of them. I heard him. I didn't listen. OW has NO pets. OK, problem can be fixed. Next? See? What do I do? Call him and say, "Dogs are gone, will you come home now?" How pathetic sounding is that?!?!<P>Meeting his EN's. I can do some of this by mail. I have. I am. This will help. One need is for admiration. I am doing that by mail. He also enjoys "chatting" with me, conversation. We did a lot of that when dating. I can ONLY do that if I call HER house. He won't call me. I HATE THAT!! I'm tyring NOT to call THERE, but then I can't meet that need......oh, what a dilemma.<P>It is the "in-between" where I THINK my WH is: S_N_L said:<I>In between their may be a group of truly fence sitting ws, who may leave, but who could be persuaded to return.<BR>The ws has left cause they assess in some way or another the marriage doesn't work, and they doubt it ever will. So the first response is pure harley, don't LB, acknowledge the bs role in the marital breakdown, </I> [I DID THIS] <I>and express a willingness to really address the issues the ws has with the bs. This will give the ws pause, they just figured you'd be angry, trash em,</I> [I DID THIS TOO!]<I> and demand they return and honor their vows blah blah blah....</I><B>Ok, so you don't LB, and start an effective plan a, ws is watching, but they are also focused on pursuing the op. They know this can't go on forever, but for now is pretty comfortable, and the power over the bs feels pretty good too. But IMO what happens if allowed to go on very long, is many ws come to feel they don't have to really do anything, that you will just wait for them... </B> <P>OK, so this is where I figure we are now.....granted, it's only been 3 1/2 months, but I'm TIRED!!! Let's move on!!! I want to move to the next level. Let's start talking. Let's decide if this thing is going to be over or try again, or whatever.<P>I told you earlier in this (becoming rather LONG) post that H left me w/div. papers. I didn't sign. I talked to an atty. who basically told me they were the "quickie" things and if I didn't want an uncontested d. then just ignore them! I did. I threw them away. I think this is giving H time to re-evaluate what he will do next. BUT IT'S NEVER COME UP......NOTHING HAS EVER COME UP..... I guess I just don't know what my next "move" should be. <P>I'm considering telling him I don't want a div. I won't sign papers, and I want us to try to make our M work first. We need to talk over our problems before moving along without trying at least. But this sounds SO NEEDY AND WEAK even to me!! <P>This is what prompted me to start this thread. I'm not sure I'm any closer to knowing what comes next than I was before. STILL know "feminine wiles" aren't for me, though! I just don't think it was OW's "feminine wiles" that got him there.....something else. (Well, OK, sex was a biggy....) <P>L

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B><P>There seems to be an unfortuate by-product of being a capable, strong, supportive wife...that being some men start to feel unecessary, just there as a paycheck...this is addressed so well in the book the "surrendered wife". It seems the woman unknowingly, takes over the marriage, assumes dominance, and the male gets lost. ).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think this what happened to my first marriage [husband left me in 1999 after 19 years of marriage]. I was the main support of the household and made all of the decisions. By the end of 20 years he didn't feel like a man anymore and I sure as heck didn't respect him anymore. The woman he took up with was dramatically DIFFERENT from me. I am polished, attractive, educated and have a successful career. His new woman is rough, uneducated, does house painting for a living, and is not very attractive. But... she makes him feel like a man!<P>With my new marriage [married again in 2000] I purposely chose a man who makes more money than I and is more independent and willful. I do let him take the lead and I have to say that it is WONDERFUL to not have to do all the thinking and decision-making for a change. I can get all of that I want at work.<P>

Lupo .. I'm sorry for crashing your thread.<P><BR>Just have one more comment to SnL about this "needs" -vs- "want" thing.<P>As far as my H is concerned I "wanted" him, and no one else, to meet my "needs". So in that respect I DID "need" him. <P><BR>I just don't get this, HONESTLY! Men keep telling me how attractive it is to be a self assured, confident and together female ... and then I hear that ultimately it can destroy your marriage. What do you MALES want? Do you even know?<P>Ughhhhhhhhhhh.............!

Here here, Dana!<P>"IF" I was ever to marry again, I want your new H's twin, okay?<P>Thanks! lol<BR>Jo

dang, had this huge post to all of you, and the darn comp ate it, the thread really interests me, and have some additional thoughts, so will try to do it later *sigh* I am so bummed!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol ... SnL, God works in mysterious ways, even electronically.<P>So go hug up Thinker instead!<P>Jo <p>[This message has been edited by Resilient (edited September 03, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Resilient:<BR><B>HONESTLY! Men keep telling me how attractive it is to be a self assured, confident and together female ... and then I hear that ultimately it can destroy your marriage. What do you MALES want? Do you even know?<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ah! SO! There's the rub. I wish we had a few more men on here to sort this out for us.....Where's Trueheart when we need him?<P>L<BR>

ok... I do have to say I need a little help on this one too! I was trying to sit back and learn.... <P>I used to make twice as much as H - the first 4 years... I stood by him and believed in him and encouraged him (no, not nagged - I assure you)... so now he's quite successful. he encouraged me to work, and work my way into management and success at work.... we knew I would come home when the babies came and I could be a SAHM... we just never got there yet. So him encouraging me to be a confident career-woman... like someone said already.... Did that turn me into something he didn't like? <P>it's SO hard to be the Woman of Today - with career and responsibility, then come home and be what hubby needs. And Buffy said what I think the problem is today... men have handed over the leadership role too much - in trying to give women "equal rights" in this world.... <P>I like the way snl calls things a "dance".. these are difficult dances to learn... will we ever? is it possible? how leads? who follows? who selects the music?