I was 20 when I decided to marry my H.<P>I did not even know who "I" was. <P>17 years later, I am a very different person. I know what is important to me. I know whats NOT important to me.<P>My H failed me on several very very important needs. Our relationship was superficial in a lot of ways. (My fault as well as his) We coasted along not really questioning it.<BR>It was ok...not great/not terrible. <P>Well over the last couple years, I AM questioning it. I am coming to know myself better, and I don't have to make the same choice I made then. It won't serve me well for the rest of my life. <P>

There are some commonalities in all the books that I have been reading...<P><I>Secrets of the Vine</I>, <I>Surviving An Affair</I>, <I>The Four Agreements</I>, <I>The Mastery of Love </I>, and <I>The Way of Agape</I>.<P>Yourself. You. Who you are. The issue of your beliefs...Where they came from...and the issue of control...<P>Even Dr. Phil's book (one of the first books I read)...says...Fix yourself first...then make decisions...Figure out who you are and why you do things...<P>I think when BS's and WS's do this, we see a whole different level of intimacy and communication...and reconciliation isn't just a pipe dream...it is possible, attainable and desireable.<P>Cali

But through that same process it can be UNDESIRABLE, UNATTAINABLE, and IMPOSSIBLE.<P>Its possible for it to turn out EITHER way.<BR>It just seems like BS's will only look at it one way.<P>

Yes, but we won't know until we've done the work HONESTLY, WITHOUT HOLDING BACK...<P>We don't have to trade for different to get a different result...we only have to change ourselves for a different result...<P>But here's the rub for both BS's and WS's; BOTH PARTIES HAVE TO DO THE WORK...<P>I think I posted to you once...not what have you got to lose...but what have you got to gain?<P>Maybe truly finding yourself? Maybe truly finding the 'promise' of that relationship you started when you were 20? maybe having it bear fruit? maybe taking it out of the superficial?<P>I have had to look at my relationship with God and ask "What does he want from me? What is this test all about?" (<I>Secrets of the Vine</I>)<P>My answers? He wants me to give control to Him... He wants me to have a better relationship with Him... and with my H...He wants me AND MY MARRIAGE to bear more fruit...to be meaninful and worthwhile...not just to exist or tread water...<P>Has it been a painful wakeup call? You bet...but ours is not to question "Why?" Rather, "What do I need to learn from this?"<P>Cali

Just had to step in and provide a little bit of input...love your posts Cali. You're an amazing person. Lexxxy, be patient with us BS's, with your BS. We're hurting so very badly and we know along with fear that things may NOT turn out the way we wish. However, isn't it enlightening that in this "throwaway, replacement" society, despite the hurt and anger that we battle, we don't want to throw away the marriage. We want to overcome the hatred and the anger that ensure after divorce. We're striving to become better. We just fervently hope that you're there to reap the benefits of our personal growth. <P>The downside is that we get angry too and overreact, LB until we're blue in the face, etc. Forgive us. Regain your compassion. As Cali says, what do you have to gain by holding on to your bitterness?<P>My prayers are with you.<P>

If its just about self awareness and enlightenment, why does the only answer have to be working on your marriage?<P>Why do I have to WORK at a relationship that doesn't fulfill me....when I have one that does?<P>And even if I didn't, why can't finding myself and being ALONE be an acceptable answer?<P>I just really wish that my H would approach this less emotionally. I wish that he would really think about what he wants. I feel like he is only thinking emotionally and not logically.

cali...When you and my H do as other WS's have done--as much internal stuff as I have been doing...when you get radically honest with yourself...AS I HAVE BEEN DOING....<BR>When YOU REALLY ADMIT TO YOURSELF what is going on WITH YOU...<P>Then we'll talk...<P>snl... *hurt look* why is cali's radical honesty count but snl's, or lexxy's, or presumeably no ws's count? Why do you think your journey revealed truths and ours has not? I have spent most of a year looking hard at myself, read books, gone to seminars, counselling, endless talks with thinker, brutal peer reviews here....it sounds like your standard of "work" is only when the ws expresses remorse, pledges eternal love to the bs, and hangs their head in shame? Is that pretty close?<P>cali...'cause, it is not about the marriage...it is not about the relationship...it is not about the spouse...<P>IT IS ABOUT YOU...<P>snl...Of course it is, it always is about you, and your choices. But a marriage is required to work for both, is no good if one does not want to be there.<P>cali...and I have to add, what about "For BETTER OR For WORSE?" I hate to bring up marriage vows with you...<P>snl...Vows are a nice sentiment, but have no practical significance. If ya want start a thread but we (I think) have been through this before, it is an elemental exercise to prove they are meaningless (primarily cause one cannot gaurantee to love and cherish someone, they can only gaurantee the legal contract, which is essentially an economic issue).<P>cali...but I am amazed that people take vows and then when it doesn't suit them anymore...say "Well I didn't really mean it...it goes against human nature." Gee...wonder why those particular words are included in marital vows anyway?<P>snl..This is harsh. Most people have some sort of honorable intent re vows, but that is all vows can ever be, intent. Otherwise they are a life sentence, no means of correcting a poor marital choice, is that how you feel? You will stay married to H no matter what he does? What about anyone else, there is no marital circumstance you would leave? What about the woman (a few months ago) who found out (after married) her H was homosexual and would not have sex, she stayed 7 years (cause of vows) and finally gave up. <P>

Yeah...SnL...back to the whole "Why get married?" question...<P>Would it surprise you to know that I once used to argue that 'marriage' was meaningless? That it was no more than an economic contract? (in my college days.)<P>And, Lexxxy...I think I wrote that the common thing in what I have been reading is the working on YOU...<P>I am not discounting your radical honesty...But I know that I still hold a piece of myself back...I know there is MORE to me...but I am fearful...if I couldn't 'give over' my whole self to him before...how can I now...now when he has betrayed me?<P>Aren't you holding back a little of yourselves? because, you too have been betrayed by your spouses...<P>I have admitted my betrayal to my spouse...I have told him "What does it matter which vow you broke or I broke? What makes fidelity more important than honor? or cherish?"<P>It is a decision...It is...It is...It is...until you truly give it over to a higher power...until you stop holding back a piece of yourself...until you get to the truth of your beliefs...YOU WILL NOT BE HAPPY.<P>Do I believe all BS's and WS's have to stay together? No. If one is not willing to do the work...it will not work...If one is not truly making the decision WITHOUT RESERVATION, with holding back...IT WILL NOT WORK...<P>By your very words, you are resistant to the idea of allowing it to work...why?<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

There are just toooo many instances in which I think vows are invalid.<P>OK -- how about if your husband is boinking a 16 year old cashier both before and after the wedding?<P>Do I still have to honor and obey then?<BR>

Are we talking hypothetically? or Are we talking your H?<P>How long is marriage upon d-day? Are there children?<P>Is this the one and only infidelity in the marriage?<P>Is H working on himself or just expecting W to?<P>This is a two-way street... if one of the parties won't work...<P>Well as they say, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink...<P>But you can plan a...plan a...plan a....You can get yourself strong and whole...<P>Then you plan b...plan b...plan b...<P>When lovebank is drained...when YOU HAVE DONE ALL YOU CAN...and the spouse STILL ISN'T WORKING ON THEMSELVES...<P>But the key is....YOU ARE HONESTLY WORKING...you are not holding a piece of yourself back...'just in case'...<P>In Ruiz's books it is sharing love freely because you want to...not because you expect anything in return...it is knowing that nothing the other person does is really about you...it is about themselves and their 'dream/fog,' (<I>mitote </I>their beliefs...and in turn...what you do IS NOT about them, but is about YOU...because of your beliefs and your 'dream/fog.'<P>When people are truly honest about who they are...why they are...what they do and why they do it...they can be personally free...they can be happy loving someone without 'expectation.'<P>Then, when they are in a loving relationship they can pledge to 'protect' and 'take care of one another.' But the 'control' issues are now gone...because I control myself and spouse controls himself...AND WE TREAT EACH OTHER CORRECTLY...<P><I>anyway, this is my new dream...how I wish it could be...ny new possibility...based on the reading I have done...and, after I feel I have done all I can do...if my H is NOT on board eventually, yes I believe that a separation would be in order, because I deserve this type of relationship.</I><P>Cali<p>[This message has been edited by JustPlainCali (edited September 13, 2001).]

Lexxxy...How are you today? ....SnL?<P><BR>Cali <BR>

Hi Cali --<BR>Just getting ready for the weekend.<BR>Can't say I'm looking forward to it.<P>H is not plan A'ing anymore.....he's silently hateful.<P>

Hi L, Please be patient with you H. I, as the BS, have also taken a sudden turn for the worse. This horrific world tragedy has caused me to look at our situation as being so sad and relatively insignificant compared to the sorrow and also the uncertainty of what lies ahead. Yet still, my H remains steadfast in his belief that he must leave to feel happiness. Yes, you're all entitled to validation of your feelings but this week was just a little more difficult to accept than most. Now I'm pleading with you L, to cut your H some slack. <P>I hope your weekend goes better than you think. I'll be thinking of you.

Lexxxy...<P>My H was angry with me for a long time...now he's finding it difficult...I am practicing my four agreements...plus no lovebusting plus radical honesty...till there is not much to be angry at me for...he can find very little to fault me...even has admitted as much...<P>I didn't have to educate this to him...just executed my plan A...<P>I know you are WS...but by coming here, it makes me think you want to work on marriage...plan A him...change your actions and reactions...if nothing else...do it for you...<P>It is such a stress reliever to let it all go...let go of my anger, my frustration...now that's not to say I don't backslide...I've discovered PMS time is difficult for me...but now I recognize why...<P>And, as was said...be patient...y'all didn't get here overnight and it's not going to get better overnight...<P>Thinking and Praying for you,<BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>