snl, what about Hosea? A very unusual story where God directed him to chose the lusting Gomer and demonstrate faithfulness. I am certainly not saying God wants adultery to happen ever. <P>But whether one is BS or WS, don't we all LB God in many ways? Don't we pound the nails in His cross by some of our thoughts and actions? And somehow He still loves us and believes and invites us to renew our covenant with Him.<P>It is NOT easy, I totally agree. It is NOT fair, either to be hurt. There are no easy answers. But I pray you can find healing on your journey to recovery. I feel it is perfectly fine for us to be mad at God for life's disappointments..who are we kidding if we think we can hide anything from Him? But please don't let the anger choke you in bitterness...let His love refresh you just now. Maybe it's time to surrender the controls to Him. Let him help you in the dark time you face right now. <P>May you see His light of love shining bright and find hope.<P>

SNL,<BR>You say that you don't value commitment but that you value honesty... What you <B>really</B> value, however, is selfishness. It's OK, most WS's do. But please don't rationalize your selfishness (i.e. your desire to end your previous life-long commitment because you're "not happy") with some profession of honesty. <P>No, I do not believe in absolute "no divorce" stance. But, I also don't believe in people getting out of commitments because they changed their minds or "lost the feelings". Tough luck... A lot of other people have come to depend on these commitments (not just your spouse, but also kids, extended family, etc). Let's call a spade a spade: your CHOICE to have an affair and get out of the marriage was a choice for YOU, and YOU alone, which is why it is selfish. Not honest, but selfish. Please don't try to take the line of saying that you are doing others a favor by being honest... You are only looking out for your own interests. If you can admit that, then you are being honest. But as long as you keep rationalizing the affair, and that marriages are somehow inherently stupid, then I think you are being dishonest.<P>BTW, your concept of commitment being contingent on feelings really defeats the basic premise of marriage. What you preach are open ended, non-commital relationships, because in any long term relationship the feelings change over time. If, once they do, there should be no ties to bind the "suffering" party to the relationship, then it's not a matter of you having found the "wrong" person, but rather is a matter of you not being marriage material. With anyone.<P>AGG

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>we choose a mate, and come to regret it, and that's it? No 2nd chance? For either person, just chained together forever? We have a name for that....slavery. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, I use a different name for it....family. Once you create it, you can't make it go away. You can destroy it, but that's what you'll have, a destroyed family. Not some vision of two beautiful swans flying off in their separate directions, no harm no foul, everyone is happy. Ending of a marriage, especially one aided by an affair, is not without victims in most cases...

hmmm goodguy, being a moving target is a good strategy, and I am patient, but now is time for you to defend your philosophic points. I showed you the holes in your stance, and why, now is your turn to defend your philosophic position with more than just barbs (I am not offended) at my position. All my points are based on reality, how humans really are, real psychology, and are Biblically sound, so far all you have offered is your ........um...... feelings. Feelings are always "right" of course.....for you, but they don't do much for a reasoned position. Explain why exactly committment is always an absolute in human behaviour. Amd explain why you say marriage is not an absolute, but it is not ok to leave it, I guess unless it meets "your" standard for leaveing? Do you see the problem gg? I have no objection to folks making personal decisions on how to live, but we are having a philosophic discussion re marital issues (I think), you have to do more than give an opinion, you need to offer a logical argument supported by real life facts re the human condition. <P>gg...No, I do not believe in absolute "no divorce" stance. But, I also don't believe in people getting out of commitments because they changed their minds or "lost the feelings". Tough luck... <P><BR>snl.... I agree. You leave cause it is in your best psychological health to do so, if that is how your assessment works out. What does tough luck mean? You mean if I take a job, become a key employee, people depend on me, livelihoods are at stake, and I want to leave...is tough luck...I can't? What if I have an employment contract as well, and I break it, is that ok?... (careful is a trick question).<P>gg...A lot of other people have come to depend on these commitments (not just your spouse, but also kids, extended family, etc).<P>snl....So, we all live our lives totally by what others need? And of course all those people are living their lives according to my needs too..right? Anf gg, never does anything solely in his interest? Why do you say these things, you know no one lives like this, it is not how humans function. We are a species that operates solely in our own best interest, there is not a single soul who does not. We cannot do otherwise, if we did not, we would not be human, we would be similar to bees or ants or some other group mentality.<P>gg...Let's call a spade a spade: your CHOICE to have an affair and get out of the marriage was a choice for YOU, and YOU alone, which is why it is selfish. <P>snl...Is much more complex than that, I didn't "decide" to do anything, I lived life, it remains to be seen whether my choices were good or bad. I don't believe one gets into or out of a marriage, I think one is bonded or they are not, if they are not, they are cohabitating, and only married in the economic sense, just a piece of paper for keeping score, means absolutely nothing. The truth of a marriage lies in the hearts of the 2 people. If they come to understand the oneflesh bond is not there, they are not married, the rest is just economic details. I am a pragmatist gg, I care little for pretense, I deal in reality. And yes I am selfish, as are you, you are doing what you want.... correct?<P>gg....Not honest, but selfish. Please don't try to take the line of saying that you are doing others a favor by being honest... <P>snl...I don't think I said that, did I? And honesty is an absolute, selfish is an orientation. There is no conflict between honest and selfish. Nor am I trying to do anyone a favor (which is impossible anyways), I will do exactly what I want (sans any overt coercion), as do you.<P>gg....You are only looking out for your own interests. <P>snl...Of course, it would be extremely patronizing to look out for anyone elses, nor do I want anyone looking out for mine, I only ask they be honest with me.<P>gg...If you can admit that, then you are being honest. But as long as you keep rationalizing the affair, and that marriages are somehow inherently stupid, then I think you are being dishonest.<P>snl...I am not trying to rationalize anything, I don't do rationalization, is a waste of resources, self-deception is not healthy. What I am doing is trying to understand some very complex human relationship, spiritual, issues, and then assess how that applies to me, and what should I do about it. Thx for your help.<P>

gg, could you tell me what family is and why you think it is important? Near as I can tell we are all the family of wo/mankind. btw I don't think it is possible to destroy a "family" it is a label for a social organization evolved to raise children, it has no inherent life of it's own, only what we assign to it. Nor is it particularly necessary for good mental health, in fact many "families" are severe impediments to good mental health. If 2 people divorce, they are still parents, they still raise the children (if they so wish), and life goes on....what is destroyed? All that happens is a rearrangement of those humans into other "families" sort of a zero sum thingy. I am not trying to be difficult, I am just not particularly fond of platitudes and cliches, and imagery. If you think the family grouping is more important than the individuals in it (and that is what you are saying) then prove it. Family is invoked all the time as an absolute defense against divorce, even with just a cursory effort is easily disproven in terms of psychological health. However, I do agree that the needs of minor children should factor heavily in divorce considerations. But it is by no means even remotely an absolute reason not to divorce. Finally since the kids belong to the people divorcing, I am comfortable letting them decide what is in the kids best interest. As for extended family, their interests are irrelevant in something as personal as who one sleeps with...don't ya think? Ya know, the reason marital breakups are often times more devastating than they need to be, is cause of the people who refuse to let someone go without extracting their pound of flesh, and not being concerned about the welfare of that person, only the effect on them....hmmm... that wouldn't be considered selfish by any chance would it?

Snl and all participating in this post,<P>You all raise interesting thoughts, so to add my 2 cents. As I was thinking how to write this post, I was also listening to Politically Incorrect with Bill Mahr, he commented that their has been a death in the national family. <P>With that in mind, I will start my thoughts. What is a family? My definition: The uniting of persons through marriage and birth. Webster's definition: 1. a social unit consisting esp of a man and woman and their offspring. 2. A group of like things, class.<P>What does this unity consist of? Consider this quote: "That is why a man will leave his father and his mother and he must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh." <P>The family unit (H, W and children) is one unit. Example: Our body can be described as a unit. Made up of many parts, each important together is becomes one working unit able to be productive and live life. <P>Take that train of thought, what would you think of a person who was willing to cut off his shoulder, or remove a vital functioning organ (like the brain, heart, stomache) completely remove it and continue living? <P>Each spouse had a choice to be married. Yes some marriages were arranged (both my grandparents had arranged marriages), yet their marriages lasted 'til death did them part. Once the choice had been made, all that followed was lived through, dealt with, worked out as a family. <P>Somehow though, society today think marriages are as easily discarded as throwing out the garbage. You don't like it, leave and get another one. Like changing clothes. No loyalty, love or devotion is to be expected or desired. Big talk about marriage being a piece of paper. Yes, it is possible to love more than one person. But within our makeup we were designed to love as in God's image. The way he made us was to honor the marriage arrangement. This means that love which is a requirement in marriage does the following: "love is long suffering and kind, not jealous, does not brag, does not get puffed up, does not behave indecently, does not look for its own interests, does not become provoked, does not keep account of hte injury, does not rejoice over unrighteousness but rejocies with the truth."<P>Those thoughts and wise sayings are not mine. You may recognize where they come from. Their meaning is clear and strong. <P>So based on all this, it is true that life is not 50/50. But we can balance each other out. When we have children, it does not get anywhere near 50/50 until after the children are out of the house and caring for us. Loving parents usually give more to their children when the parents receive. We parents accept this but still train our children to eventually be able to carry their responsbility. So that parents could eventually say: "No greater cause for thankfulness do I have than these things, that I should be hearing that my children go on walking in the truth." Does that mean we parents can withdraw our support for our children? NO. Most loving parents give until it hurts sometimes. <P>If we give willingly to our children and with love should less be given to the one who is also a part of our family just because they are not one of our children?<BR>Is it ok to love less or not at all just because we have a feeling for someone else? <P>What loyalty and love is lost in a piece of trash? Maybe an old shirt or outfit has some sentimental value, but most of our clothes get replaced without causing too much of a crisis. Yet can anyone replace our invididual children? You loose a child in death, have another one as a replacement? How would that 2nd child feel, go through the rest of their lives as a replacement? Hm...... how about your W or H? Your next one was a replacement? Hm.....<P>Yet these same parents expect different standards to be applied to them to legitimize the A. Hm....... does that make sense? <P>L.<p>[This message has been edited by Orchid (edited September 22, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>You mean if I take a job, become a key employee, people depend on me, livelihoods are at stake, and I want to leave...is tough luck...I can't? </B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>THIS ISN'T THE SAME THING AS A M COMMITTMENT AND YOU KNOW IT. A CONTRACT FOR A JOB ISN'T ANYWHERE NEAR THE LEVEL OF COMMITTMENT YOU MAKE TO ANOTHER PERSON TO "FORSAKE ALL OTHERS TILL DEATH DO YOU PART..."<P><B>Is much more complex than that, I didn't "decide" to do anything, I lived life, it remains to be seen whether my choices were good or bad.</B><BR>THIS IS THE "CRUX" OF THE MATTER.....YOU "LIVED LIFE" - BUT IN THE "LIVING" OF IT, YOU MADE SOME BAD CHOICES. WE ALL DO. HOW TO UNDO IT? GOOD QUESTION. CAN YOU "UNDO" A BAD CHOICE OF WHO TO MARRY? I DON'T KNOW. CAN YOU "UNDO" HAVING AN A AND FALLING "IN LOVE" WITH THAT PERSON? SUPPOSEDLY.<BR>SHOULD YOU IF YOU ARE M? DEFINITELY!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I don't believe one gets into or out of a marriage, I think one is bonded or they are not, if they are not, they are cohabitating, and only married in the economic sense, just a piece of paper for keeping score, means absolutely nothing. The truth of a marriage lies in the hearts of the 2 people. If they come to understand the oneflesh bond is not there, they are not married<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I BELIEVE THAT THE "ACT OF SEX" BONDS US. ONCE WE DO THAT, POWERFUL FORCES OVERTAKE US, WE MARRY THAT PERSON, AND STAND BEFORE GOD AND WITNESSES, AND ESSENTIALLY *AGREE* TO BOND WITH THAT PERSON. IN GOD'S PERFECT PLAN, THIS TAKES PLACE *ONCE.* THERE IS NO TURNING BACK, LOOKING BACK, SECOND GUESSING OR RATIONALIZING. THIS IS WHY "CHOOSING CAREFULLY" AHEAD OF TIME IS ESSENTIAL. THERE'S NO RE-DO. OOPS! I DON'T LIKE THE CHOICES I MADE, SO I'LL DISCARD THIS ONE, AND TRY AGAIN, THAT ONE "FITS" ME BETTER. DIDJA EVER HEAR THE SAYING, "IF THE GRASS IS GREENER NEXT DOOR, WATER YOURS! IT'LL GET GREEN, TOO!!"<BR> <BR>THE REASON GOD'S PLAN *IS* PERFECT IS BECAUSE OF THE POWERFUL STUFF SEX IS TO US HUMANS. GOD KNEW THAT. HE KNEW THAT WE *WOULD*, *COULD* "FALL IN LOVE" WITH ALMOST ANYONE WE HAD SEX WITH. SOOO, THE "ONE MAN/ONE WOMAN" THINGY, AND NO SEX UNTIL M. WAS THE RIGHT WAY TO GO. IT PROTECTED US FROM THE HEARTBREAK OF INFIDELITY, SPLIT FAMILIES, DAMAGED CHILDREN, DISEASE, ETC. WE'VE DISCARDED THAT CONCEPT, AND LOOK AT OUR SOCIETY NOW!<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I am not trying to rationalize anything, I don't do rationalization<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>OH, BUT YOU *ARE* RATIONALIZING,DEAR S-N-L!!! YOU CONTINUOUSLY WRITE AND WRITE WITH YOUR DIGITAL DIARREHA (sp) LOOKING FOR, HOPING FOR, SOMEONE, ANYONE, *EVERYONE* TO AGREE WITH YOU AND "LET YOU OFF THE HOOK" FROM YOUR DISMAL M, WHICH IS THAT WAY CAUSE YOU AND YOUR W WILL NOT **WORK ON IT** TO FIX IT!!!!<P>WAAAL, FRANKLY, I'M DONE. I HAVE DELIBERATELY WRITTEN THIS POST ALL IN CAPS SO YOU WILL KNOW I AM PI**ED. WHY AREN'T YOU SPENDING THIS MUCH TIME TALKING TO YOUR W??? WHY AREN'T YOU SPENDING THIS MUCH TIME READING AND LEARNING AND IMPROVING YOURSELF??? I THINK I KNOW WHY. CAUSE YOU JUST WANT TO SAY YOU "STAYED, YOU TRIED, ETC" FOR SOME SPECIFIED AMOUNT OF TIME, AND IT DIDN'T WORK, SO YOU LEFT. PERIOD. NO GUILT.<P>AT FIRST, I THOUGHT YOU WERE AN INTELLECTUAL, THOUGHTFUL, INSIGHTFUL PERSON. I THOUGHT YOU WERE ON A TRULY HONEST QUEST FOR "YOURSELF" AND WHERE IT ALL WENT WRONG. I DON'T THINK SO ANYMORE.....YOU *ARE* SELFISH!!! YOU JUST DON'T KNOW HOW TO ACT ON IT WITHOUT LETTING EVERYONE KNOW HOW SELFISH YOU ARE!!!<P>WELL, S-N-L, I'M GIVING YOU PERMISSION. WHY THE H--- DON'T YOU JUST *GO*??? GET IN YOUR LITTLE CAR, DRIVE THE 2000+ MILES TO WHERE THE OW IS, GET HER, RAVISH HER, HAVE SEX, HAVE YOUR "HEART-FELT FIT" WITH HER???? DO IT, FOR PETE'S SAKE!!!!!! YOUR CONTINUAL WHINING ON THIS BOARD IS ALL I CAN TAKE. AFTER YOU FIND OUT *SHE'S* NOT THE "FIT" YOU THOUGHT SHE WAS, 2 YEARS FROM NOW, OR WHENEVER, YOU'LL BE BACK. THEN MAYBE YOU'LL BE READY TO LISTEN TO WHAT EVERYONE IS TRYING TO SAY, INSTEAD OF "RATIONALIZING" YOUSELF TO US AD-NAUSEUM.<P>I'M DONE, AND THAT FELT GOOD.<BR>LUPO<BR>

Sad_n_lonely,<P>I truly feel sorry for you...you are lost in a big thick London fog if you don't think feelings matter...oh COME ON. Feelings are what separate us from the animal kingdom.<P>You cannot, ever dismiss the feelings in this kind of thing just because it suits what you have done in the past. Or are doing now underhandedly.<P>I see in your posts a real vindictiveness, something that your wife will read and get her to leave you. I really think that's why you post all these sour things. To get her off your case.<P>Someone else here said there is no real 50/50 in a marriage and I agree...it is not a set arrangement. Sometimes H will do more, sometimes W. But it balances out.<P>Now I know you are just going to find things to pick at here, and I'll tell you something...I don't care. Because you are in the fog, and you will do and say ANYTHING to justify your position, and therefore you shouldn't be taken seriously.<P>I still feel for your wife, the pawn in all your stupid WS games.<P>And if that sounds harsh, well tough. I still feel sorry for you.<P>

Lupo, I figured out you were upset before you said so, why? We are just talking, and everything I ask is a reasonably conjecture, or question re the facts of human existence. By being angry you in effect are trying to limit the scope of the discussion. Should one not voice thoughts (in polite manner) that one thinks will make someone uncomfortable? (and possibly angry, sad). I am in a place (in my life) where I am questioning everthing I know, or thought I believed, and this was clearly a philosophic thread. True (and useful) discussion comes not from a setting where everyone agrees, but from a setting where all views are expressed, dissected, and contemplated, wouldn't you agree? In my time on-line I have personally chosen to discuss all the volatile issues wo/mankind I can find, cause I want to KNOW why I think the way I do, and know how others think and act, plus I really just like philosophic discussion...it is one of my strongest emotional needs lupo, my wife doesen't; and you can probably surmise who else did, and now you are doing the same thing she "used" to do... get mad at me just for being curious. How come? Was I rude? Was I offensive? Did I not express myself impersonally (not diss someones specific life).... etc?<P>I have discussed religion, homosexuality, abortion, feminism, politics, slavery, white supremacy, and a host of other "volatile" subjects....sometimes people act like they would just as soon kill you as talk about these things (once the thread gets going).... their reason? They are upset one does not agree with them (or "appear" not to agree by even suggesting other viewpoints), I can't help but wonder why they choose to enter the discussions. I too (on occassion) feel like coming through the screen and shaking some sense into people, but I have to leave that at home if I want to participate in a full ranging discussion. I know you meant no ill lupo, but I would really appreciate your contemplating this, and an explanation for your angry outbursts. Also keep in mind that I (and others of intellectual bent) do not necessarily believe what we suggest personally, oft times one is the devils advocate, or simply choosing to wear another point of view. For example, in a slavery discussion, if most were decrying it, I would be arguing why it is a good thing. Those who think it is not must prove it, this is the only way we can be sure our cherished beliefs are sound in terms of human psychology/behaviour and not the wrong road no matter how "cherished" they may be. In the area of human marital relations their are a number of behaviours that folks just want to make axioms, and go from there. All of these axioms must be proven. One (for some) is that marriage is an absolute, "vows" (for example), but when pressed most acknowledge it is not, so it has no place in a discussion of why should you remain married. If we don't challenge these kinds of mindsets we are unable to uncover the "real" psychological truths we need to operate under. That is what I seek to do when I make these kinds of posts. I need this in order to find my way, I don't do well when I am confused, and I do even less well doing what someone else tells me to. We each cope in our own ways lupo, my way is to understand as much as possible the truths re human marital behaviour, and the basis for it, that basis has to be the psychological health of the individuals, not the cultural standards they happen to live under. It seems others have similar interests for a variety of reasons (probably) and I don't really know why anyone needs to get too angry, frustrated yes, as do I when folks say things here I just don't get, but are supposed to control my choices.<P>Anyways, for the record lupo, I have not filed any divorce papers, I am still home interacting with w (and counselling), I have no contact (and believe that is appropriate). Nor do I promote the choosing of an affair, or condoning (meaning no repercussions) of such actions. I am not trying to find acceptance (nor do I need such) for my A. It is history to me, it happened, now I am trying to understand what that means about my future. And I am curious too why affairs happen, so I talk about that too. An Affair is not a discrete "thing" it is an inextricable part of human mating, as is marriage, you cannot have one without the other, nor can you have marriage without divorce. Arguments that don't reflect that truth, are arguments about some species other than human beings. SO I strive to understand, that isn't so bad is it?<p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 22, 2001).]

Hey s_n_l,<P>I believe that a marriage is 100/100. I believe we are EQUALLY IMPORTANT. <P>Re: Feelings. Whispy, flighty things that they are ~~ hard to grasp and even harder to live a life by. <P>If I had followed feelings, I would not have divorced my ex. I loved him. But he HURT TOO MUCH... there just came a time where feelings didn't matter anymore.<P>I know you say you're "trying" and "doing the right things" but sheesh... this would be hell to read as your wife. My ex did the opposite -- he did NOTHING he was suppose to do (no "no contact" letters, no "no contact" [altho he says he "tried"], no throwing away her gifts, and on and on and on.)<P>But here's the thing: I could grasp onto that stuff, because he was a liar and a cheat. Your wife has nothing to hold on to, because you're "doing" the right things, but your heart is not with her, and she knows it. <P>I feel sorry for both of you... <P>**Also, I wrote a reply on snobird's thread (about time to divorce) that might interest you. Please check it out.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited September 22, 2001).]

nina..I truly feel sorry for you...you are lost in a big thick London fog if you don't think feelings matter...oh COME ON. Feelings are what separate us from the animal kingdom.<P>snl....??????? I DO think feelings matter.....alot. <P>nina...You cannot, ever dismiss the feelings in this kind of thing just because it suits what you have done in the past. Or are doing now underhandedly.<P>snl...Ya lost me, and what is with the disrespectful judgements? This is a philosophic thread, and what I say is not necessarily my personal feelings/opinions (in terms of how I will choose something)...the point is to refute what I SAY, with better logic and facts...not diss me. Read my reply above to lupo to for more detail.<P>nina...I see in your posts a real vindictiveness, something that your wife will read and get her to leave you. <P>snl..I haven't a vindictive bone in my body, I get taken advantage of on a regular basis, and rarely do anything about it. Plus I forgave my w long ago, for the very real injuries she too has inflicted on me in our marriage. No nina, I seek only the truth, and it is not that easily discerned in human marital relations. It is exceedingly difficult to reconcille feelings and rationality, but reconcilled they must be for good mental health.<P>nina...I really think that's why you post all these sour things. To get her off your case.<P>snl...You are correct, sometimes they upset her, she does not like philosophic discussion of any kind, she feels threatened when anything she believes is challenged, unfortuneately I thrive on it, need it, it is sad we are so different this way, hurts both of us. But I do not post for her, I post for me, and I have asked her not to read these kinds of posts so as to not distress her.... still she kinda sneaks in and reads them....should I just clam up, and deny this part of myself nina. Is that what you would do? Is that what a marital partner should do, be someone they are not so as not to distress their partner, is that what marriage is about, becoming a different person?<P>nina...Someone else here said there is no real 50/50 in a marriage and I agree...it is not a set arrangement. Sometimes H will do more, sometimes W. But it balances out.<P>snl...Nina, that is 50/50 you just phrased it differently. As long as we make marriage/love a mechanistic decision, someone will ALWAYS be getting the better deal, that is how our cause and effect universe works. But if we say feelings do count, then we must accept not only will one feel like being married, but they may also feel like not being married, and both feelings count, and must be equally acted on. You cannot just say I will only choose to validate the feelings that support my intellectual position.<P>nina...Now I know you are just going to find things to pick at here, and I'll tell you something...I don't care. Because you are in the fog, and you will do and say ANYTHING to justify your position, and therefore you shouldn't be taken seriously.<P>snl...Nina, would you plz tell me what you think my position is? I regularly get chastised for condoning affairs, yet am on record repeatedly as not doing so. I regularly get chastised for being uncaring (about my w and marriage) yet I have been a loyal, and good provider for 23 years, depite being almost totally emotionally neglected. Now I am accused of fog, when I make perfectly rational observations re human behaviour and simply ask people to prove their positions (as should I mine).<P>nina...I still feel for your wife, the pawn in all your stupid WS games.<P>snl...I am doing my best to be honest with her, and responsible to both her and me, why do you see that as a game? How do I be other than what I am nina? If it is a game, I am guilty of deliberate manipulation, do you think so, and if so, why would I do such a despicable thing?<P>nina...And if that sounds harsh, well tough. I still feel sorry for you.<P>snl...It was harsh, but I appreciate (and need) forthrightness, and I think you are sincere (not playing games) though I may disagree with you. Thx for your sentiments to my w and I.<P>

To Lupo, AGG and others in that boat. I am just so glad I'M not married to any of you. I don't want to be someone's "commitment" or "responsibility". I want my husband to stay with me because he WANTS to. If he felt strongly enough that he didn't want to, for whatever reason, I would be sad, but I would also rather he go then stay.<P>But how sad for your own spouses if they hold no more special place in your heart as any other person you could have wrangled into marrying you. We are not Legos. Not everyone is going to snap into place with everyone else. You seem to view them and family as just another thing that must get checked off on the "to do" list. I wouldn't want anyone who had no passion for me to be with me.<P>Yes, I have been selfish, but aren't we all. We all want what we feel we need, whether we deserve it or not. I don't need you or anyone telling me my affair was wrong. Duh! I never thought it was right. But it filled on of my major needs. I accept it was wrong and I'm here and doing what I can to fix things.<P>My husband, being the loving soul he is, stayed with me because he loved me, didn't want to lose me, found that 90% of his life was me. Nothing was ever said about, "I'm supposed to," or "it's my job."<P>And I know THIS will get me flamed but I'll say it anyway; Some of you BSs are just bitter, angry people. I'm sorry you were hurt, but if you continue to look at life like some compartmentalized task that you are required to complete, then I'm afraid you may always find yourself at risk of losing those around you to others with more passion for life.

Just as I thought, Fogese.<P>This is NOT really a philosophical argument SNL, you are setting this up to try and get support for your warped WS thinking, and if you think we can't see that, you are more in the fog than we thought.<P>Maybe I shouldn't even be responding to you right now, I am angry at my own WS and all his bulls#!t, and all the others here who think BS's are stupid.<P>And I am glad to see the end of obj or whatever the woman's handle is.<P>You did examine feelings in your discussion and it seemed to me that you thought they weren't important. That's why I said what I did.<P>Someone else here said it is commitment...and that is true. WHen most of us stand before God and recite those lines, we do not say, oh yeah, unless something better comes along. That is what you are trying to argue for, and it just shows such a weakness of character.<P>Why do I bother? WS's never listen, unless they want to.<P>Your wife is an absolute angel, for still standing by your side, even though, CLEARLY you don't want to be there....think of her side for a change, man, have some empathy. You are so selfish!!!

Snobird, look at this:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/004548.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/004548.html</A> <P>Please don't think SNL is the resident expert on WS...he isn't...note he isn't even mentioned in that thread. It will do you good to look at some of the posts of truly repentant WS's.<P>And excuse me, honey, yes I am bitter, but after five+ affairs, three undisclosed, and two std's do you think I should be anything but??? This was all because I LOVED my H, and look what that got me.<P><BR>GET A GRIP!!!

Lupolady--you rock...I have been having this conversation w/SnL for months.<P>Snobird & SnL I think it is dangerous for you two to post to one another...(MY OPINION).<P>FACT--Marriage is an economic contract and for some a religious covenant...LOVE USED TO NOT HAVE MUCH TO DO WITH IT.<P>In my college years I, having come from a multiple divorce family, felt that no one should really marry...especially the young, those with stars in their eyes, and those that had not known each other less than three years.<P>So, I got married. I was 26...he 29...both of us far beyond the age of consent. I no longer had stars in my eyes...we had been together for three years...lived together even...I knew he snored, didn't pick up his socks, and hated to call me when he was going to be late...but I wanted him in my life forever...I wanted to be his wife...committed to him...<P>Now as for him, it is fuzzy. We were engaged a year...plenty of time for him to back out...but he didn't...he now says he loved me, but wasn't in love with me...okay...I don't like that...but I don't necessarily think the "in-love" stuff is much to base a marriage on...I can live with the I love, respect and admire you...that is something solid on which a marriage can be based...<P>A complete stranger we met in Vegas this summer said to me, that he and I, despite our 'problem,' seemed like really good friends...see this stranger recognized in my H some unhappiness, etc. that becoming 40 can bring and he tried to counsel my H...a complete stranger...see we had spent the day with him checking out Vegas's new housing developments and he and my H 'bonded.' It was very surreal...later my H accused me of telling this guy 'our story' and about his A. I had not...the guy had just picked up on stuff...<P>Anyway, I digressed...so what is my point? We got married. We signed that economic contract. We got before our friends, family and God and vowed our eternal committment... And nowhere in that committment did it say..."unless my feeling change...unless I fall out of love...unless I find someone who fits...unless I change my mind..."<P>WS's and BS's both need to look deep within themselves to discover what agreements/principles by which they are living their lives...that then must become the center of your life and all decisions should be made based on those agreements/principles...<P>Once you make the decision QUIT whining...QUIT pontificating...QUIT justifying and LIVE THEM...and if you truly can't 'recommit' then go away...<P>I am ready, the next time my H tells me he doesn't want to be here, with my separation, plan b letter...<P>None of us can force the other to be here...But SnL, if you keep having conversations and thoughts like this, you really aren't IN THE GAME...you are holding back...you are just TRYING...not DOING...<P>Peace,<BR>Cali<P>------------------<BR><I>Live Impeccably In Your Word.<BR>Don't Take Anything Personally.<BR>Make No Assumptions.<BR>Do Your Best Always. </I>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>hmmm goodguy, being a moving target is a good strategy, and I am patient, but now is time for you to defend your philosophic points.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hmmm, I fail to see why I'm a moving target, bud. My stance is simple and clear cut: you made a lifelong commitment when you got married, and you should honor that commitment. The only "allowable" ways out of that commitment (in my book) are cases of abuse, deliberate neglect, or deliberate pain inflicted by one spouse on the other. I know you are going to start dissecting these, and that's OK. But just realize that my stance has always been simple and clearcut, unlike yours, as you will see...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> so far all you have offered is your ........um...... feelings. Feelings are always "right" of course.....for you, but they don't do much for a reasoned position.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK, Mr. "Moving Target", I thought <B>you</B> were the big proponent of being able to leave a marriage because your feelings changed... Now you're saying that feelings don't do much for a position? Care to explain? And BTW, where did I offer m y feelings to explain my position? Or are you calling commitment a feeling? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Explain why exactly committment is always an absolute in human behaviour.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I didn't say that.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Amd explain why you say marriage is not an absolute, but it is not ok to leave it, I guess unless it meets "your" standard for leaveing?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This entire discussion is based on our individual standards for what is OK or not OK. You stated yours, I stated mine. In my book, change of feelings is too wimpy a reason to leave the marriage. That's all.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>you have to do more than give an opinion, you need to offer a logical argument supported by real life facts re the human condition. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You gotta be kidding me, right? Do you think your argument that humans aren't meant to be married for life passes for some kind of a logical argument supported by facts?? It's called rationalization to support your position, but don't pass it off as facts...<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>What if I have an employment contract as well, and I break it, is that ok?... (careful is a trick question).</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually, no, it's not OK. You have broken a promise. Now, you might be able to rationalize your way out of feeling guilt for doing so (e.g. I found a better job offer elsewhere (hint hint )), but you still did something wrong.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>We are a species that operates solely in our own best interest, there is not a single soul who does not. We cannot do otherwise, if we did not, we would not be human, we would be similar to bees or ants or some other group mentality.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, here we have the so-called facts to support your argument. You realize that I could put a "not" in front of every one of your statements and pass that off as facts, right??<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I didn't "decide" to do anything,</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Can I get this framed?? Why do most WS's refuse to acknowledge that their pants did not fall off due to the force of gravity?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I am not trying to rationalize anything, I don't do rationalization</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>per Websters: <B>rationalize</B>: to bring into accord with reason or cause something to seem reasonable.<P>This is <B>not</B> what you're doing??? I must go back and reread your post, I guess...<P>AGG<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by snobird:<BR><B>To Lupo, AGG and others in that boat. I am just so glad I'M not married to any of you.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, no worries, the feeling is more than mutual... OK, now that we got the pleasantries out of the way, let's get down to business.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Yes, I have been selfish, but aren't we all.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Uh, no... Oh, but wait, you consider a person "digging their claws into their spouse while someone is trying to steal their spouse" to be selfish, don't you? OK, you're right, I was selfish too...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I'm afraid you may always find yourself at risk of losing those around you to others with more passion for life.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What does passion for life have to do with screwing around and getting divorced? You mean you can't have a passionate life in a committed relationship? Ever read "Passionate Marriage"?<P>Look guys (SNL and Snobird), I have no problem with you two doing whatever you want to do (have affairs, divorce your spouses, whatever). What gets me is when you two try to <B>rationalize</B> your actions as being somehow inherent in human behavior, and that it is "unnatural" to tie you down to your commitments. You can do what you want, but please realize that by getting married you are taking on the responsibility of being with your partner for a long long time, not until the feelings change or the passion fades. If you believe the end of passion is a good reason to end a marriage, you should not be getting married in the first place. IMO, of course...<P>AGG

SNL,<P>I'm not sure how long you have been married?, how long ago was your A? And how long did it last?<BR>Have you ever been in love with your W? What attracted you to her? what was it in her that you decided to marry her? Do you not have these feelings for her at all?<P>I think you have to make the most of your marriage. Like most things "it takes two" It takes both of you to equally give to the M. If you are not giving the other will not give. I think you may have convinced your self that there is someone out there that is your fairy tale lover. And that's all it is a fairy tale. I would think the only reason you would stay with your W right now is that you must have feelings for her still!? If you didn't then why stick around? Do you think that your old feelings are just ganna come back and hit you in the head? If you want them back you must invite them back but giving to the M. Try doing things that you two did when you first meet.

keep smiling....I'm not sure how long you have been married?, how long ago was your A? And how long did it last?<BR>Have you ever been in love with your W? What attracted you to her? what was it in her that you decided to marry her? Do you not have these feelings for her at all?<P>snl...I have been with my wife 29 years, 24 married (never lived together though, and was a very rocky 5 year relationship). I met the ow 16 months ago. Last?... well D was early march, no contact was early august (after several tries, ow and I both realize we needed to do this in our marriages). No, my w and I have never been in-love, too many personal issues that we did not resolve before marrying. We had our ist child (of 4) 9 months after we married. I was intially attracted cause of some similar interests, and backgrounds. I married her cause I felt responsible to her, (I made emotional and physical committments to her I should never have done, in the ignorance of my youth), and she needed me to help her recover from a less than nurturing FOO, she became dependent on me, and I accepted the position. Later on in life (as I tried to figure out what happened, and in counselling) I realized I only dated girls with problems, I was a rescuer. I have the same feelings now, she needs me, and I care about her, the problem is, one cannot, should not, substitute that for love, it is a coercive basis for a relationship. The sad thing is she knows (as do I) she will never be able to meet my EN, I will always be taking care of her. It does not mean she is inadequate, or I am unreasonable, it just means we do not fit, and I am the stronger emotional/psychological individual. It has always been this way, she has always depended on me to be our stability, and to take care of stuff, even when I literally screamed I need help, she wouldn't/couldn't do it....unfortuneately the load when you do it all yourself is crushing, and strong as I am, I finally collapsed. This is another outcome of people who do not fit well. The cost to me is an abject feeling of guilt, failure, and mind-numbing loneliness, the cost to her is intense sadness, anger, also loneliness, and fear (who will take care of her). Dependentcy relationships suck big time, had I been a controller, I had the perfect wife, she would have done whatever I demanded, and I knew that. Instead I killed myself trying to be fair to us both, to do her work and mine, it was a terrible mistake. But I was COMMITTED, I had children to raise, so I sacrificed myself, I literaly disappeared, I was just there to be used for everyones needs, hers, kids, family, whoever, no one cared in the slightest what this was doing to me. I thought I could do this forever, cause that is what good decent people do, and I did it a long time 23 years with nary a misstep. It may have been wrong by some standards, but the ow saved my life, I was sinking, and sinking fast, she gave me hope that life really could be different, that I do count, that I am important, and that I was lovable. The peculiar thing was I did the same for her, who had had pretty much the same life..... I may seem like a taker now, but I am not, I am an extraordinary giver, I gave and gave and gave, and locked my taker so far away, couldn't find him with a microscope. This (I have come to realize) is not unusual, there are a certain number of such givers out there, and we get pursued and pursued hard, because of that. Usually to our disadvantage. I felt if you just love someone hard enough, take care of them, they will do the same in return, I didn't realize how untrue that was....unless, you married someone like you, someone you fit in that way. <P>So now I have taken back my life, I have decided I am important too, and my taker has gone a little nuts (to be expected), and I will not go back to what I had. I am no good to anyone unless I am healthy too, and that is why sacrificial marriage does not work. Some of you call that selfish, but I don't think it is, why is it selfish to take care of yourself?<P>KS...I think you have to make the most of your marriage.<P>snl...Why? One can leave a marriage too. Isn't that the point of being human, to be able to make choices in your best interest?<P>ks...Like most things "it takes two" It takes both of you to equally give to the M. If you are not giving the other will not give. <P><BR>snl...I have nothing left to give, I already gave it all, it did not work. Now I realize I have a choice, my w says she wants to change, but whether she does or not, and whether it makes any difference or not, is in the future, would be a new marriage, the old one is dead, I left it, I don't want it, and I will not go back to it. She has the same choices re me.<P>ks....I think you may have convinced your self that there is someone out there that is your fairy tale lover. And that's all it is a fairy tale. <P>snl...For some maybe, not for me. She is gone, the A is ended, she is not going to leave her marriage, she cannot bear to hurt anyone, and is willing to sacrifice herself first, I may be no better. It remains to be seen if I have the courage to leave (if we do not find in-love). Is not about ow, is about me, I would rather be alone, than in a sacrificial marriage, dying a little more each day.<P>ks....I would think the only reason you would stay with your W right now is that you must have feelings for her still!? If you didn't then why stick around? <P>snl...I stay cause of committment. I am not strong enough to break my vows, mostly cause of the pain it will cause. But I have managed to chart a path, radical honesty and poja will determine the fate of our marriage. In the interim there is work to be done, I am doing that work as best I can.<P>ks...Do you think that your old feelings are just ganna come back and hit you in the head? If you want them back you must invite them back but giving to the M.<P><BR>snl...The feelings you imply...never existed.<P>No matter how distressing real life is, it is still real life. And the fact is, not everyone (not even most IMO), are married to the right person, and that fact leads to an awful lot of misery. IMO we should focus on the psychological health of people, and facillitate divorce for those who don't fit very well, and instead, focus on developing the skills of mate selection as well as the skills of marital behaviour. If you hammer enuf, you can make a square peg fit a round hole, but not wihtout a lot of pain....so the question is..why? Why not just find a square hole for the square peg, and a round peg, for the round hole? Everyone will be a lot happier. Instead we fight and fight and fight to make marriages work, cause people just are unreasonable selfish brutes...say what? Maybe we fight and fight and fight, cause we just won't let people choose who they want to be with. We "own" our spouse, afterall they promised us their whole being forever....well, that is a promise impossible for human beings to make. You cannot gaurantee love, and for this human being, marriage is far more than an economic/personal service contract.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AGoodGuy:<BR><B> You gotta be kidding me, right? Do you think your argument that humans aren't meant to be married for life passes for some kind of a logical argument supported by facts?? It's called rationalization to support your position, but don't pass it off as facts...AGG</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Damn, he's good! You're very good at cutting through the BS, MrGoodguy.<P>