<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>IMO marriage is not the piece of paper anyways. It is the truths in the hearts of 2 people, when one is no longer in-love (or more likely was never in-love in the first place) the M does not exist (except as a contract, and all your arguments now come into play), it is a picture, a sham, and the real truth hidden away in a dark deep place. True enuf, people can live their lives without needing to deal with this truth, and pay the consequences of doing so, but that is what frewill and choice are about, each makes their own way through life.).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Is this how you feel about your marriage? If so, why have you made a decision to stay? Your actions don't match your words. No one is holding you against your will, are they? If you are being held against your will, let me know and I will come to Michigan with my new cute little 9mm handgun and liberate you, snl.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<P>SNL... The sad thing is she knows (as do I) she will never be able to meet my EN, I will always be taking care of her. <P>KS)))And why is that? Why do you think that she could never learn to meet your needs? Can you not tell her how you would like to be loved and treated?<P>SNL... I felt if you just love someone hard enough, take care of them, they will do the same in return, I didn't realize how untrue that was....unless, you married someone like you, someone you fit in that way. <P>KS))) Have you ever expressed this to her? Have you asked her to change? I guess I still fell that way, That if you love them hard enough you will get it in return. SEM said that he loved me whole heartedly but I don't think he was meeting my needs. Are you meeting your W's<P>snl...Why? One can leave a marriage too. Isn't that the point of being human, to be able to make choices in your best interest?<P>KS))) Then what was the point of getting married? Ya you can make choices, but if you are christian then you better be choosey before you make your decision.<P>snl...I have nothing left to give, I already gave it all, it did not work. Now I realize I have a choice, my w says she wants to change, but whether she does or not, and whether it makes any difference or not, is in the future, would be a new marriage, the old one is dead, I left it, I don't want it, and I will not go back to it. She has the same choices re me.<P>KS))) So if it's dead why not find out if she wants to change by dating, then renew your vows to eachother for a freash new start. Have you given her a chance to change? Maybe she will agree that the old one is dead.<P>snl...For some maybe, not for me. She is gone, the A is ended, she is not going to leave her marriage, she cannot bear to hurt anyone, and is willing to sacrifice herself first, I may be no better. It remains to be seen if I have the courage to leave (if we do not find in-love). Is not about ow, is about me, I would rather be alone, than in a sacrificial marriage, dying a little more each day.<P>KS))) So why don't you take your own advice? How do you know that if you get out on your own that the OW will not come back. I don't think she would even know the answer to that unless you do it.<P>Snl...I stay cause of committment. I am not strong enough to break my vows, mostly cause of the pain it will cause. But I have managed to chart a path, radical honesty and poja will determine the fate of our marriage. In the interim there is work to be done, I am doing that work as best I can.<P>KS))) It's a little late to say you don't want to break your vows don't you think.? How do you figure your committed if you sleep around?<P>snl...The feelings you imply...never existed.<P>KS))) Sorry, so I see now. Do you think they do with OW?<P>SNL...No matter how distressing real life is, it is still real life. And the fact is, not everyone (not even most IMO), are married to the right person, and that fact leads to an awful lot of misery. IMO we should focus on the psychological health of people, and facillitate divorce for those who don't fit very well, and instead, focus on developing the skills of mate selection as well as the skills of marital behaviour.<P>KS))) God would rather us love him more than anyone else. But he knows that us humans are not so capable of of that, and we need a physical being to be with. I disagree with you, I lot of people fall in love (weather you are right for eachother or not) It's just people don't know how to hang on to those feelings. How to make it work just right. No one has ever showed us that. There are probably quite a few though that get married for all the wrong reasons such as yourself. IMO, divorce is an easy way out. Instead of finding the lost love for eachother, they would rather put their energy elsewhere. In your case though, I would think that you and your W would be better as good friends and you both could move on.<P>SNL... If you hammer enuf, you can make a square peg fit a round hole, but not wihtout a lot of pain....so the question is..why? Why not just find a square hole for the square peg, and a round peg, for the round hole? Everyone will be a lot happier.<P>KS))) call me stupid but that is what dating is all about. You date people to see if you fit. You don't stay with someone if you don't like their attitude, or if you think they are concieded. Ya' people may change, but so do you. So If you love eachother you will find a way to bring it all back. Your case is different though. I would like to understand what your W wants out of the relationship.<P>SNL... Instead we fight and fight and fight to make marriages work, cause people just are unreasonable selfish brutes...say what? Maybe we fight and fight and fight, cause we just won't let people choose who they want to be with. We "own" our spouse, afterall they promised us their whole being forever....well, that is a promise impossible for human beings to make. You cannot gaurantee love, and for this human being, marriage is far more than an economic/personal service contract.<P>KS))) I disagree with we own our spouse. We are one, it's him, her and God. We are not bought and we did not buy love. Some people may but I don't think most people would agree with that. Why can we not guarantee love? MY H has loved me faithfully for 8yrs and I him. I may have screwed up and let the devil in, but I have always loved him. You promise to be with eachother cause you love eachother. Your body is a temple of God, so he wants to to treat that way. we fight for our M's case we love eachother, we do what's right and what we believe in.<P><BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nyneve:<BR><B>Hey s_n_l,<P>I believe that a marriage is 100/100. I believe we are EQUALLY IMPORTANT. <P>Re: Feelings. Whispy, flighty things that they are ~~ hard to grasp and even harder to live a life by. <P>If I had followed feelings, I would not have divorced my ex. I loved him. But he HURT TOO MUCH... there just came a time where feelings didn't matter anymore.<P>I know you say you're "trying" and "doing the right things" but sheesh... this would be hell to read as your wife. My ex did the opposite -- he did NOTHING he was suppose to do (no "no contact" letters, no "no contact" [altho he says he "tried"], no throwing away her gifts, and on and on and on.)<P>But here's the thing: I could grasp onto that stuff, because he was a liar and a cheat. Your wife has nothing to hold on to, because you're "doing" the right things, but your heart is not with her, and she knows it. <P>I feel sorry for both of you... <P>**Also, I wrote a reply on snobird's thread (about time to divorce) that might interest you. Please check it out.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nothing to say to me?

sheryl, you are such a sensitive girl, no, I am not ignoring you, and I read all your posts, but as you can see there is a lot of pots, and oft times somewhat repetitive, so when I reply to one, it may be stuff that applies to all, I am a talker , and this is important to me, but there are only so many hours in the day *sigh*. If there is something specific you would like a reply to I have not addressed, just point me to it.<P>nye...But here's the thing: I could grasp onto that stuff, because he was a liar and a cheat. Your wife has nothing to hold on to, because you're "doing" the right things, but your heart is not with her, and she knows it. <P>I feel sorry for both of you...<P>snl...Yes, it is very sad, I have zero desire to hurt my w, and I buried my feelings for years in an attempt to "make it work" honor vows, blah blah blah....didn't work, never does. So now I must be radically honest, and I get yelled at here constantly for doing so....tell me sheryl, plz tell me, where is the switch that programs ones heart? How do I make myself feel what you all say I am supposed to feel, or am I just really pond scum afterall, worthy of nothing more than contempt and derision? <BR>

SnL,<BR>Nah, you're not pond scum...but you are a bit stagnant..which is pretty understandable given the situation.<P>IMHO, all parties in the A..WS, BS, OP, go through a period of this after an A and at the threshold of recovery. All three parties will tend to have a little "frozen in time" period when they process what happened, why it happened, and where to go from here. While in this period, a lot of inner debris that's maybe been dormant for years get's throughly examined..sometimes enough so that it becomes the focus, rather than what it really is...debris. I'm not saying it shouldn't be investigated, I'm saying it should be examined and then shelved for what it is...mostly past hurts and misunderstandings, and some of it just plain ignorance due to youth and inexperience.<P>I realize I reply to few of your posts, but I do read them and you give voice to many feelings that a lot of us have and possibly hide...perhaps that is why they strike some nerves...the point of this post is to say that maybe it is time to stop your brain for a while and let some action take over. Do you sometimes feel like your in a giant whirlwind with all these thoughts just madly circling around? I think we all do but there are times I think you are stuck in the middle of this vortex. Hmmmm, wish I had your gift for words...not getting this out right...let me throw some phrases out and see if you get my gist..<P>"Square pegs and round holes", "fit right"..remember that stuff? SnL we're about the same age, and life, marriage, kids, maturing has changed all our shapes. Partners have changed too. It's not about a perfect fit..it's about being flexible enough to accomodate the changes...cause the're still going to continue to happen. It's not about 50/50, because sometimes it's just not going to be that way. <P>Look at your own life. You describe it as being emotionally deficient for you and for her,an atmosphere where she had to feel she was in control...symptoms....but for many years, you both accomodated yourselves to it. And the reasons were not so foreign to the rest of us..raising kids, getting ahead in life, most times just reacting to outside forces, and basic ignorance that there were skills to make it better. But changes did occur and at the time of the A, the basic fit was too uncomfortable...and the "fit" with the OP was better. Possibly, there were other times when the fit was uncomfortable and you both used more acceptable things...work, kids, reading, sports,computers and message boards, to keep yourself occupied and not really investigating the reasons for dissatisfaction.<P>At the risk of really seeming heartless, I will use a current event as a simile. The A was the WTC crisis....really woke us up didn't it? Why didn't the earlier rumbles...The Cole, the earlier bombings and smaller acts of terrorism? Because we saw them, they weren't horrific enough to any but a few..so they were accomodated....just like a relationship crumbling over time...we saw the rumblings, accomodated them and then were completely blown away by the devastation of the final act.<P>So now, the country can either sit around and ponder all the events that led up to this..which we need to do for a while, but eventually we have to take some action. Just like those of us trying to heal after an A...some reflection is good, but action is needed.<P>Now, again like the country..what is the correct action? Will we screw things up further? Will we be effective? Will we have the support we need to make the changes? Will life really be safe again? So many unknowns that it's almost paralyzing. <P>The country is going ahead..making plans for action without being 100% sure it's even going to work...there are many that don't have our hearts in it completely...but we have to try. Just like where you are now....you've got to try to wrap your heart around yourself, your wife and your relationship and try. Let go of some of the debris that's keeping you stagnant.<P>You've said you'll give it a year..I like that. Personally we used 90 days.... the crux of the matter is that there are days that you won't even like her, will be ready to quit, will think it's hopeless, will long for a better fit...that's when you have to reach into yourself, not let the inner crappola take over, and try harder. Will it be perfect after 1 year? Nah, no chance..it sure wasn't after our 90 days...but we were able to look back on the changes, attitudes, and individual comfort zones and decide to keep trying to live life together. <P>Is your marriage dead? I hope so. It didn't sound to great to begin with. I'm personally estatic that our old relationship is being replaced with something better. And, truthfully, there are days that "better" consists of some pretty ugly stuff...but it's honest and there is a committment to work through it. Because we've both decided to wrap mind and heart around it even on days our minds and hearts don't really feel like it. Why do it when we sometimes don't feel like it? Hope.<P>Will we stay together? Hope so, but that isn't a certainty for any of us. The odds are better given the current state of cooperation, admiration, affection and, dare I use the elusive and undefinable word..love...but square pegs and round holes change all the time.<P>So, SnL, just my take on it. Get out of the pond, shake off a little debris, give it your best and let your inner demons sleep for a bit.<BR>T

Dana, I guess we beat this feelings thing to death, I think it is safe to say we have a substantial difference in how we view life, leastwise human bonding. <P>If I got this right, you agree feelings play a role in life, but are subservient at all times to reason. Further you think marriage is an unbreachable contract (unless the usual exceptions apply, abuse, addictions, adultery.... course we have no place to go for an abuse standard...but ignore that issue I guess), and that one must make themself love someone, or they just aren't trying hard enough (low character). But I am still unclear about something, after all the trying, and your H had to tell you (radical honesty) he does not want to be married to you, are you saying that feeling counts or not? (ie do you stay married indefinitely, or not?). And if he has that feeling are you saying that proves he is of low character?<P>twyla....you give voice to many feelings that a lot of us have and possibly hide...perhaps that is why they strike some nerves...<P>snl...yeah, I noticed.... my need for emotional honesty is off the scale. So everything in life is on the table in my world. I know a lot of the stuff I ask makes sense, and scares the crap out of people, cause it is the deep dark stuff we bury, I use to bury it too, but it hurt me, and I will not bury it anymore. It amazes me how much people drift through life without even knowing or trying to understand why they choose as they do. This important stuff, lives are diminished because we marry (and stay married, or divorce) wrong, the ripples through children, family and society are enormous. <P>People who spend their lives "working" at their marriages (for example) are less able to work on themselves and be the best they can be...for themself AND the rest of their community. This IMO is why you hear the term blossom so much, as not very nurturing relationships end, and after the disruption and grief, people realize they are a whole lot happier, and start growing. IMO there is never any particular honor or character in beating a dead horse, yet people approach marriage (and it's ending) in almost cult fashion sometimes. The marriage is everything...but ya know, it is not, people can and do remarry, birth new families, and if they chose more wisely, are much healthier and happier. <P>I see no virtue in remaining in an unsatisfying marriage, I think it perfectly reasonable to ask oneself, why am I married, do I really want this, does it really nurture me, and if it doesn't...end it. For some reason this is viewed as heinous selfishness, yet we would expect people to change their circumstances if they were suffering physically. Change their diet, get more exercise, seek medical treatment, whatever, but you are stuck with your spouse, the most important person in your life, a stranger you chose to mate with, but come to find you (or they) chose poorly (psychologically speaking) and if it is not healthy for you...too bad...what is that about?<P>So I ask these kinds of questions, and seemingly just irritate the hell out of people, frankly I have no idea why, except that they somehow feel threatened, cause it means their spouse may not choose them one day. But they miss the point, if your spouse is not going to choose you one day, don't you want to know that? Do you want to hide behind vows and committment, and affair proofing, hoping you make it through life, safely to your grave, before you find they really are not in-love with you (or you with them)? What is so scarey about knowing the real truth, the deep down real truth about the capacity of your spouse to love you? <P>Methinks very few people really look all that deep into themselves, living lives of denial to one extent or another. I did. I know what it feels like, and I am sorry I did, I should have done this a long time ago (resolved, or ended the marriage). Now I sometimes feel it is too late, not worth the effort, just settle for my life the way it is (and will sure make everyone else happy, as someone said, that is more important than my being happy), and just put in my time till I die. My w is not a bad woman at all, and would fit someone quite well, I wish it were me, it just isn't, and there is nothing I can do, or all the words in the world can do, to change that. The only real issue left is whether we can reach an accomodation, that is plesant enough to work. That irritates the folks who think you can be married to anyone, that marriage is just about history, about someone knowing you, that love is a decision, I wish they were right, unfortuneatley they are not. If they were, I would not be stuck. I don't say too much about the fog, about addiction, that is so disrespectful, just dismissing ones concerns about their psychological well-being as self-serving drivel. It is so clear, our society (at least part of it) has a tremendous bias to keeping people married, we have a whole mantra about it, but the fundamental assumptions reveal the truth. It does matter who you are married too, and love is not a decision, it is the feeling you have when both your mind (reason) and heart (feelings) independently choose another, and they you. Without all those parts, there is not love....or if that annoys people who want to use the word for accomodated marriages, then we need another word for this kind of bonding. We do a terrible disservice to those who need to leave their marriages, but instead are counselled in every which way to stay in them.<P>Twyla... noticedthe point of this post is to say that maybe it is time to stop your brain for a while and let some action take over. <P>snl..Oh, action is taking place, lots of action. But my brain never stops, I even dream about this stuff every night. Maybe I am just mentally ill. I am lost twyla, and it is why I am trying so hard to find the way.<P>twyla..."Square pegs and round holes", "fit right"..remember that stuff? SnL we're about the same age, and life, marriage, kids, maturing has changed all our shapes. Partners have changed too. It's not about a perfect fit..it's about being flexible enough to accomodate the changes...cause the're still going to continue to happen. It's not about 50/50, because sometimes it's just not going to be that way. <P>snl...Just another way of saying settle twyla, why not start over? Nor do I think marriage is 50/50, which is the proof (easy to make) that love is not about meeting needs. It is about fitting, when you fit, all the needs get met.<P>twyla...Look at your own life. You describe it as being emotionally deficient for you and for her,an atmosphere where she had to feel she was in control...symptoms....but for many years, you both accomodated yourselves to it. And the reasons were not so foreign to the rest of us..raising kids, getting ahead in life, most times just reacting to outside forces, and basic ignorance that there were skills to make it better. But changes did occur and at the time of the A, the basic fit was too uncomfortable...and the "fit" with the OP was better. Possibly, there were other times when the fit was uncomfortable and you both used more acceptable things...work, kids, reading, sports,computers and message boards, to keep yourself occupied and not really investigating the reasons for dissatisfaction.<P>snl...The fit is not something you can change, it arises out of the interplay between your 2 psychologies, it is immutable. Use this board for example, we all know a fair number of people here fairly well in some sense from their postings about themselves and their lives. According to harleys (and some here), we could be married to any one here and it would work...heck the board is a filter for at least some level of motivation, and of course anyone here should be conversant in MB principles, but if I had to make a list of posters here I would have any interest in being married too, it would be a very short list(no matter what they did in meeting my EN) ... why is that? (and ok, I know I am on few, maybe no ones, list too). Fit does matter, don't ya think?<P>twyla...At the risk of really seeming heartless, I will use a current event as a simile. The A was the WTC crisis....really woke us up didn't it? Why didn't the earlier rumbles...The Cole, the earlier bombings and smaller acts of terrorism? Because we saw them, they weren't horrific enough to any but a few..so they were accomodated....just like a relationship crumbling over time...we saw the rumblings, accomodated them and then were completely blown away by the devastation of the final act.<P>snl...I deleted the rest of simile, but it was very good twyla, and illustrative of what always happens when stuff is not dealt with (avoided) properly. And yes, now action must be taken, and the fate of a marriage (after an A) can and should be put into question, including reconcilliation, or dissolution, based on it's current merits, not past history.<P>twyla...Now, again like the country..what is the correct action? Will we screw things up further? Will we be effective? Will we have the support we need to make the changes? Will life really be safe again? So many unknowns that it's almost paralyzing.<P>snl...yep, very good imagery. <P>twyla...You've said you'll give it a year..I like that. Personally we used 90 days.... the crux of the matter is that there are days that you won't even like her, will be ready to quit, will think it's hopeless, will long for a better fit...<P>snl...yep<P>twyla...that's when you have to reach into yourself, not let the inner crappola take over, and try harder. <P>snl...Yes, to a point. Another mark of maturity, is knowing when to give up too.<P>twyla...Is your marriage dead? I hope so. It didn't sound to great to begin with. I'm personally estatic that our old relationship is being replaced with something better. And, truthfully, there are days that "better" consists of some pretty ugly stuff...but it's honest and there is a committment to work through it. Because we've both decided to wrap mind and heart around it even on days our minds and hearts don't really feel like it. Why do it when we sometimes don't feel like it? Hope.<P>Snl...Pretty much where I am at, but one cannot "make" the heart feel a particular way, but one can make themself be dutiful, and I am trying to do that.<P>Thx for your thoughts.

All of this "fitting" business on this thread is driving me nutz! Nothing in this universe "fits." No two snowflakes are alike, no one has the same DNA and marriages are NOT made in heaven. Everything in this world, as we know it, requires compromise. If you want something to work, it most probably can if one is willing to give their utmost to the project. Fit is what's comfortable to the wearer. <P>------------------<BR><B>Time heals all wounds as long as you DON'T pick at them!</B>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR><B>Dana, I guess we beat this feelings thing to death, I think it is safe to say we have a substantial difference in how we view life, leastwise human bonding. <P>If I got this right, you agree feelings play a role in life, but are subservient at all times to reason. Further you think marriage is an unbreachable contract (unless the usual exceptions apply, abuse, addictions, adultery.... course we have no place to go for an abuse standard...but ignore that issue I guess), and that one must make themself love someone, or they just aren't trying hard enough (low character). But I am still unclear about something, after all the trying, and your H had to tell you (radical honesty) he does not want to be married to you, are you saying that feeling counts or not? (ie do you stay married indefinitely, or not?). And if he has that feeling are you saying that proves he is of low character?<P>.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>snl,<P>If my H told me that he did not want to be married to me, I would say adios. Of course, his feelings would count. But it's still a character issue since he made a vow to love, honor and cherish me. He would be breaking his vow. His "feelings" don't justify his actions. The vow was never contingent on his feelings or his mood.<P>Are you saying that you don't want to be married? If so, why are you there?

SnL,<P>Marriage is about vows. (That character issue again!)<P>My marriage was horrible. All 10 1/2 years of it were full of physical, verbal and emotional abuse. I still stayed! Why? Because I made a vow for better or for WORSE! I wanted it to get better and I believed that it would.<P>Of course, my ex didn't think so. He had an affair, left me and 3 kids 2 days before Christmas 1999, and hasn't been back.<P>If he hadn't left, I would still be with him. Because of the vows I made before my family, my friends, him and most importantly, God. <P>Some people don't get a chance to make their marriage work. You and your wife are at least trying. Try harder! Put your heart into it! ANd then, if that doesn't work, at least you can say you did all you could!<P>Mitzi

dana...hang on, you still seem to want it both ways<P>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:<BR>Dana, I guess we beat this feelings thing to death, I think it is safe to say we have a substantial difference in how we view life, leastwise human bonding. <BR>If I got this right, you agree feelings play a role in life, but are subservient at all times to reason. Further you think marriage is an unbreachable contract (unless the usual exceptions apply, abuse, addictions, adultery.... course we have no place to go for an abuse standard...but ignore that issue I guess), and that one must make themself love someone, or they just aren't trying hard enough (low character). But I am still unclear about something, after all the trying, and your H had to tell you (radical honesty) he does not want to be married to you, are you saying that feeling counts or not? (ie do you stay married indefinitely, or not?). And if he has that feeling are you saying that proves he is of low character?<P><BR>dana...If my H told me that he did not want to be married to me, I would say adios. Of course, his feelings would count. But it's still a character issue since he made a vow to love, honor and cherish me. He would be breaking his vow. His "feelings" don't justify his actions. The vow was never contingent on his feelings or his mood.<P>snl...Hang on, it is you with the low character, you said adios...right? He was gonna stay (honor vow), just did not love you.<P>dana...Are you saying that you don't want to be married? If so, why are you there? <P>snl...Yes. I had been moving toward that point for some time, I want nothing to do with the empty marriage we had (neither does my w I think, from what she has said). I am still here cause MB and my w suggest I may feel differently if certain efforts are made. I am willing to consider maybe there is more to this than I realize, or that in fact vows are absolute, and I am not allowed to leave without more cause than my personal well-being.<P>btw no one can gaurantee by vow the feeling of love, we could also include a vow to gaurantee a certain standard of living, or not to die for till 65 ot something, but the vow would be meaningless, likewise one cannot gaurantee the feeling we call love.<P><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited September 23, 2001).]

SnL,<BR>Believe it or not, I agree with you on many points. Not sure if you remember me posting to you a while ago, but I was married previously for 12 years. The fit was fine for 2 young people in their 20's...the big conflict was when the problems started, and the subsequent trial reconciliation, and then divorce, was the attitude of a marriage being disposable...divorce is a piece of cake these days...walking away, using whatever reason to justify it is the norm. These people here on MB..this isn't the norm...this is the group that decided for whatever reason, to give it another shot, make sure they weren't missing something that could save a marriage, or themselves. People have a million diferent reasons to stay in situations. They also have a million reasons to leave. Only you know your reasons for staying or leaving, and ultimately, you will make a decision.<P>I think the majority of those who are not irritated with you, really try to make you see that the funk you are in, is one we all go through....I know I did...I think what I was really trying to say is to take it easier.....Lord, my mind goes 100 mph at times..and, you're right...dreaming about it, different scenerios, different endings...well, it's like trying to dig out of a hole...the dirt just keeps piling up.<P>A few specific points....<P><BR>SnL: People who spend their lives "working" at their marriages (for example) are less able to work on themselves and be the best they can be...for themself AND the rest of their community. This IMO is why you hear the term blossom so much, as not very nurturing relationships end, and after the disruption and grief, people realize they are a whole lot happier, and start growing. <P>Twyla: I think it would be impossible to work on a marriage and NOT work on yourself...basically we're talking about two people making changes to affect the relationship. I think we "blossom" when we reach a level of personal acceptance and confidence. As far as the end of the relationship...again I stress...the "old" marriage has to end.<P>SnL: I see no virtue in remaining in an unsatisfying marriage, I think it perfectly reasonable to ask oneself, why am I married, do I really want this, does it really nurture me, and if it doesn't...end it. <BR>(and)....I should have done this a long time ago (resolved, or ended the marriage). Now I sometimes feel it is too late, not worth the effort, just settle for my life the way it is put in my time till I die. My w is not a bad woman at all, and would fit someone quite well, I wish it were me, it just isn't, and there is nothing I can do, or all the words in the world can do, to change that. <BR>(and)......<BR>And yes, now action must be taken, and the fate of a marriage (after an A) can and should be put into question, including reconcilliation, or dissolution, based on it's current merits, not past history.<P>Twyla: SnL read the above again...the three quotes I took from your reply to me...I see the confusion in your head, I have felt it and have been in the exact same place as a BS, not once but twice...my point is that no one wants you to be unhappy...least of all your wife...I'm just saying to somehow find a way to....give up a few demons of doubt and get into the mindset that you will give your all to being the best man and husband you possibly can and see if it helps. And you are absolutely, 100% right...continuing the marriage has to be based on current merits and not the past. My sermon is to try to help you realize that you have to give 110% to the "current"..to the present..and to do that, you may have to just trust that meeting each others EN's and following the rules of recovery are the right ways to do it. And while it may seem counter-productive not to air all your feelings, I think editing some that would just plain hurt another human should be considered. There is honesty and then there is brutul honesty...a wise man knows what to reveal. There are times when I would love to tell my partner how incredibly horrible his actions made me feel...there are days I would like to tell him 5-6 times. There are days I would like to list all of his faults, mistakes, and decisions going back to day one...but what would it solve? Would I feel better? Would it help him? Would it help me? Would it deliberately hurt him? Much better idea to examine myself, why I am irritated and go from there...treat the disease, not the symptoms.<P>Oh, one more point...on a lighter note...your analogy of anyone on this site being compatible and able to be married and meet needs...wouldn't work..this is one dimensional...hits only 2 needs at most...I suspect spelling and grammar has a lot to do with any choices made here...and perhaps self control.<BR>Good luck,<BR>T<P><BR>