<p>[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: sing ]

WAT<P>You may feel sort of beat up here, emotionally - but I am offering a different perspective!<P>Harley says that there are 3 stages of a marriage: Intimacy, Conflict, and Withdrawal. She has been in withdrawal for so long, and you finally got there during your plan B. For things to move back to intimacy (reconcilliation) - both of you will travel through the conflict stage. This conversation demonstrates it, IMHO!!!<P>So now, the test is: Have you learned how to interact with your wife through conflict? That is an art, to learn how to communicate and be productive through conflict.... <P>Hold your emotions intact, don't feel defensive, don't be offensive, remember "assertive" communication techniques....<P>When _______ happens, I feel ________. I need _______. <P>It sounds like you were a little bit defensive in your conversation, but I can see you were not offensive!! Good Job!<P>Maybe you can learn how to ask her what specifically she would like you to change? Help HER develop conflict resolution skills?<P>Just my thoughts....<P>Hang in there! Anxious to hear what Steve will suggest!<P>TnT

Dave,<P>How to make sense of the senseless? I racked my brains trying to figure that out. Go with what you know is the right thing to do.<BR>She may not have any warm feelings for you knwo but that doesn't mean that it is not possible in the future. My H did not appear to have warm feelings for me when he wanted out. By doing the right thing, it kept us moving in the right direction. You have just taken a different road than I did. I agree with what trustntruth said. You've got conflict now. Very unpleasant, I am sure. I also feel that her anger stems from the fact that the nice safe worls she has created for herself is not so great afterall. Maybe there is a little too much reality for her right now. It just takes some longer than others.<BR>I really hope this counsellor can do some good for your son.<P>cleo

WAT -<BR>I bow down to you! "I am not worthy, I am not worthy". You have an extremely difficult situation here and you handled it Beauoootifully!! You are the MASTER of self control.<BR>She is definitely using you to vent, blame etc for everthing SHE has screwed up in her life.<BR>Hang in there! Give us an update after Tuesday's session!

Hi Dave,<P>I read your inital post and understood all the glaring and obvious reasons you think your wife was in a snit .. .<P>BUT, aside from those reasons, I sense something else going on. Perhaps it's what most here have said, that she is feeling real life eclipsing her well planned fantasy and you are adding to it by not cooperating with her plans of being her "friend" and enabling whatever she wants and needs to make her future fantasy life come true.<P>Altho, I still have a feeling there is something additional going on behind the scenes. Just a hunch.<P>Hey .... wasn't it just a short time ago she requested you only be "civil", and now she has graduated to wanting "friendship". <P>How dare you exercise a boundary and refuse to be her "friend" ... after all, don't friends meet our needs??? [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img]<P><BR>Lv,<BR>Jo<p>[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Very sorry for your prediciment, Dave.<P>Lv,<BR>Jo<p>[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: Resilient ]

Sorry You and Wife are going through these tough times.<P> jd<p>[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: jdmac1 ]

Same deal for me, Dave. Email me if you'd like me to edit my post up above.<P>Jo

TnT - I hear ya. Good advice. I'm no expert, but I try to practice this in communication with everyone. But thanks for reminding me that this is certainly one of the critical occasions for it.<P>Alberta - your are too complimentary. If I was a master, I probably wouldn't be in this mess at the moment. But, I'm confident I did a better job than usual keeping my cool. To be honest, it's easier than it used to be. I think I understand better than she does what's going on. At one time a few months ago, I would have been devastated at her diatribe and I would have fought fire with fire. It's a good thing this "event" was on the phone - otherwise, she would have seen me holding back my laughter at some of the things she said - again my favorite - "It was YOUR decision NOT to leave." Every time I hear that I get a HUGE boost of reassurance that I'm not the crazy one. Does this make sense?<P>Jo - thanks for your hunch. It illustrates one of the values in this forum that I'm sure you've experienced as well - sometimes it takes a fresh perspective to see the underlying issues because we directly involved are too close to recognize them. Your observation of a shift from "civil" to "friends" is probably more an artifact of what I write, not exactly what she says. She has used the "friends" term quite frequently throughout the ordeal, with "civil" being more prevalent in the past 8 months. She has stated in the past that she doesn't understand how I can want to reconcile with her, but I can't be friends with her. She doesn't get the difference that it will be determined by her behavior, not my abilities.<P>JD - thanks <P>Orchid - I am indebted to you for quoting that gem of yours a while back that I now privately refer to as "Orchid's Observation": The WS is right 50% of the time and the BS is wrong the other 50%. This was replaying in my mind during my conversation with the alien abductee. Of course in my extreme case, it's 100%/100%.<P>Dave<P>[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: worthatry ]<p>[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: worthatry ]

Hi Dave, <P>Glad to see you are getting a lot of support. We would be happy to also help your W for the right reasons. You know that and I hope someday we can. <P>In the meantime, you have been given good advice. BE CAREFUL. As long as you will be handed the short end of the stick and made to play the villan, then be careful. Remember that others are not required to absorb the heat of her anger, so they will be in a better position to see the truth. They are not in the fog and if they are slightly beclouded for a while, things will clear up. <P>Even though $$$ is one of the highest reasons for D nowadays, $$$ is a real thing. A dollar, is a dollar is a dollar. Those in the fog who think they can go out their with the same salary and stretch that dollar even farther, well the calculator in their brain is malfunctioning. I speak from experience, remember me? The one who's WS found out that wow, food costs lots of money?!?!?! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] Renting a room really impacts a budget at $800.00 per month. Hm..... if they were struggling before when living at home, what about now? <P>Well, the dad helping her out thingy is a wake up call. Now others know that she is not making it nor making it well. Hopefully her dad is smart enough to know that she put herself out there. So let others now take over the attempts to 'reason' with her. <P>See that is where you have an advantage over me. My H, cut off all communication with his family and friends. Your W is still maintaining hers. That can be a plus for you. <P>The wall buildt by the A and her other issues were not meant to last, just hurt you while she thought she was protecting herself. I don't think she ever counted on you loving her sooo much. I know my H did not. That single thought mulled in his brain for a long time. Then with what he saw, he eventually contemplated his future. <P>So it is not a matter of can the BS or the WS make it without the other, it really comes down to can the WS really leave all behind without guilt for the rest of their lives? If they do, they won't care what they do to the BS and family. If they don't care, then the BS and family should move on. In the interim is the waiting out until the BS is sure. <P>So stay in your plan B and love your son. I still would use the reverse the attack theory and say 'hm..... yes you are like that, I noticed it and didn't know how to tell you but since you are aware that you are like that also, well now you can get help." Kinda confusing? It is meant to be. Helps stimulate the gray cells. <P>Just as they have spent a great deal of time thinking how to attack, they can now think how to recover. That would be great. <P>L.

WAT<P>Financial support is a EN, and I'd be willing to bet there were others you were meeting too that by the fact that we tend to not notice those things which we take for granted might now be missed when not recognized before. You did a Plan A before going to B as I recall too, yes?<P>Anyhow, to those who say this is manipulative I have to say I wholeheartedly disagree. Wanting to save your marriage and not just become another split family in this world, this is a goal that comes from the heart, and is for reasons far more than self gain. If you were only interested in yourself you would have no desire to save your family and try so hard to reconcile love after such betrayal.<P>With the heart at stake, and a real desire for the best possible end having a plan based on proven techniques to help you meet those goals is just trying to be smart and not mess things up. Aren't we all a little unsure of what to do when faced with someone we love wanting to leave? In those cases wouldn't it make sense to learn from he experience of others who have made it work?<P>I have known manipulative people. (My H's ExOW as an example.) These people are out for SELF gain at all costs with very little care for it's effect on others. <P>This is NOT the same thing at all. This is a noble crusade, and a demonstration in action of true love, care and concern that requires the setting aside of the needs of the self for the good of the family and your wife.<P>Trying to find methods that work to save vows made before God and family and the pain of your son is in no way the same thing as manipulating others to do your will. <P>I find the implication itself shows a complete misunderstanding of how hard it is to go through the pain of infidelity, and the loss of your spouse and watch the pain of your children as they suffer through this mess that neither of you wanted. It shows a very self centered perspective indeed, very typical.<P>NY

NY - wise words indeed, thanks.<P>If there's nothing else I've learned about the psychology of infidelity, it's the spooky similarities between WSs - contrasted by the the irony that they think of themselves as unique. Amazing, huh?<P>While my wife has some complicating issues, she is following the script perfectly. The accusations of manipulation and control on my part are only the most recent examples.<P>Seems BSs are easily caught off guard by these effects of the moose brain worms. The statements are so bizarre ("It was YOUR decision NOT to leave!!") that we instinctively recoil to examine whether WE'RE the crazy ones. Revisiting my mirror theory, perhaps the severely delusional WSs have no idea they're saying such ludicrous things because they don't look self-critically at themselves before acting or speaking. They've painted over all the mirrors in their lives. That's why, when BSs recover from the immediate shock of such actions and statements, it's SO easy to refute and LB on the WSs - they leave themselves wide open. But we have to resist these temptations. We cannot educate them or even hold up a clean mirror. If only this knowledge would come earlier for most BSs.

Wat,<BR>I don&#8217;t know what to say, but I&#8217;d like to let you know that I follow your story. Somehow, I think your wife is thinking. The part that bothered me was when she said you were nice to her before, but now you are so mean to her. But yet she still sees that as I quoted from your thread here &#8220;That silly Plan A/Plan B is nothing more than your attempt to exert control over me and manipulate me!!&#8221; As long as your wife still sees and believes in this &#8220;control over&#8221; her she would not want to work with you ever. <P>Maybe your plan A was not effective at all, but just a small den to her bubble and your plan B helped push it up in the air. Somehow I still see fire against fire here, nothing else. This is just my opinion as an outsider. I don&#8217;t want to say much because who am I to give you an advice when I still have my own problem to solve.<P>OOOO

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by OffOnOnOff:<BR><STRONG>&#8220;That silly Plan A/Plan B is nothing more than your attempt to exert control over me and manipulate me!!&#8221; As long as your wife still sees and believes in this &#8220;control over&#8221; her she would not want to work with you ever. <P>Maybe your plan A was not effective at all, but just a small den to her bubble and your plan B helped push it up in the air. </STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Naw. I think she is trying to figure it all out, since she, her sister, or all of them, have been lurking on here, and trying to "figure out" what you are doing!<P>OOOO, I don't think she really knows what she's talking about, personally, but that's MY .02.<P>She says that you "were nice" before, but not now? Because you were in Plan A before, but now will not acquiesce (sp?) to her whims! [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <P>I STILL say "hang in there" - there's something in the air!<P>Lupo

Hi OOOO - I think you're correct in that she'll want nothing to do with me as long as she thinks I'm trying to control her. But Lupo is also right, perhaps, - there's something in the air other than baseballs hit by the other team (we lost 10 - 5 Sat. nite). The "nice" period she referred to was August, 2000. But, I was unbelievably nice (according to SIL - right Sis?) up until Plan B in July. That's when I couldn't do it anymore - which she incorrectly interprets as a change to "manipulating control." We have to remember, severely delusional WSs see things thru different lenses and can distort the focus in ways to make the BSs the root of all evils. Whatever WSs say re: the past, MUST be regarded as revisionist history, otherwise, we get sucked in to their distorted version of reality. So, I cannot lessen my manipulative or controlling nature because it doesn't exist. However, she can come to realize that it isn't there.<P>OOOO - eyeswideopen and I have designs on kidnapping you and pouring a beer down yer throat. Get ready.<p>[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: worthatry ]

Dave,<P>Good Luck tomorrow! I wish the counselor would let your w have it but your W would think you bribed the counselor or something.<BR>The LB fairie is ready to dust off her wings & come do some major LBing for you.<P> [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img]

Dave,<P>Just hugs, thoughts and prayers from me. Good luck tomorrow, I'll be thinking of ya!

Hi,<P>Howzit?<P>L.