cali...Can you actually NAME couples who are in-love all the time 24/7 ???? 'cause they'd make a fortune if they wrote a book about it....<p>
snl...No, I don't personally know any. But I believe the people who have seen them. It is not something you can put in a book, you cannot learn this. It is just the simple outcome of fitting someone closely psychologically. If you do not think this is possible, why do you (cali) not fit everyone equally, and why do you persist in pursuing your H, simply let him go and decide to love someone else, makes no difference who you love cause no one can make you happy...right?<p>#2. Long lasting, mature love is the kind of love that sustains a relationship...and that is the kind of thing YOU CAN build...that's the love that I think the Harley's and others talk about...<p>snl...There is no such thing as mature love. You either fit or you don't, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it. However you can fail to recognize it (because of freewill), and you can make poor choices. You CANNOT build in-love, but you can craft an successful emotional contract, you can settle for less than an in-love fit. What is interesting is how and why people make that choice. What is tragic is when one wants to make it, and the other does not. <p>cali....There is no such thing as mature love.
Youch!! That would sure surprise a lot of people. I guess that's why so many WSs live to regret their affair and wish they'd just worked their issues out with their former spouses....<p>snl..buyers remorse. We often think the grass was greener where we left. But I suspect more do not regret.<p>cali...and I'm sure there's some biblical stuff I could write on this topic...but the assuredness of your statement surprises me. No such thing as mature love....hmmmm.<p>snl...I left religion out of it, am just discussing psychology (but I can make the religious case as well, it all must be consistent). Keep in mind mature love is only a semantic label, it does not mean anything, nor must it reference love at all. I think the term as it is usually used is referenceing settleing. A relationship that is something less connected than passion.<p>cali...Maybe as we continue to exist in ignorance...I'm not sure marrying has anything to do with it. We can justify our feelings and behaviors any old way you want to....<p>snl...Are you suggesting the average youngster has the skills, and practices due diligence re assessing themselves, their prospective mate and an accurate assessment of the likelihood of marital success?<p>cali...I do think that some people choose to be unhappy. <p>snl...I agree.<p>cali...I do think that some people blame and justify their immaturity and unhappiness on others. <p>snl...I agree.<p>cali...I do think people look outside themselves and say "If only _________ were different..." People do need to look inside themselves. And it is just a decision....a hard one...a mature one...but a decision nonetheless....<p>snl...I agree.<p>cali...But you know what SnL...God is with me on this one. And he wants people to have mature...growing relationships...and he wants people to be happy....<p>snl..I agree God wants us to be happy.<p>cali...but happiness can only happen when YOU work on YOU and when you figure out that no one can MAKE you happy but you.<p>snl...I agree. <p>cali...The glass is truly either half empty or half full.<p>snl..It is both, and if you need a full glass, but ignore it is half empty, you will still die. You need to fill it up. But if you think you need a full glass and refuse the half full one you die just as dead.<p>homilies are all fine and well, and useful for focus, but they are not life. Life lies in assessing reality, understanding how it works, recognizing your options, and taking appropriate action. If you box yourself in too ridgid with rules you lose, cause you will always be one step behind. Balance cali, it is all about balance.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
<strong><p>cali...The glass is truly either half empty or half full.<p>snl..It is both, and if you need a full glass, but ignore it is half empty, you will still die. You need to fill it up. But if you think you need a full glass and refuse the half full one you die just as dead.<p>homilies are all fine and well, and useful for focus, but they are not life. Life lies in assessing reality, understanding how it works, recognizing your options, and taking appropriate action. If you box yourself in too ridgid with rules you lose, cause you will always be one step behind. Balance cali, it is all about balance.</strong><hr></blockquote><p>SNL,<p>I disagree homilies are not life. Homilies can be part of life and describe life well.<p>The glass is half empty or the glass is half full taken not so literally is a great example of life.<p>I see people who look the their life with pity.<p>I see people with the the same problems as the ones who pity who look at their life with happiness.<p>I am getting a divorce, in the past my husband has beat me, my husband once hit me and force me to have sex, my husband has rubbed glass in my face. My stbx and I are going bankrupt, my STBX and I have no jobs, my bank account is almost depleted. I have several reasons to look at the glass as half full. Perhaps even almost empty....<p>Other side, I have a roof over my head, I have two beautiful healthy children, I'm healthy, my husband didn't kill me, I managed to get out of my marriage before he did and without him stalking me, I have made it so far, some how God has provided when I thought I wouldn't be able to pay my bills, I have airconditioning, I have heat, I live in America, I am a woman, instead of a man THANK GOD. [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] I see the glass has half full and looking back at my life, I never remember even in my darkest moments thinking the glass was half empty....<p>In real life, most people's lives are not always full, mishaps, accidents, deaths, etc., usually prevents are glasses from being filled to the top.<p>How do you see your glass?<p>
ANNA<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: Anna2000 ]</p>

Folks, <p>Let me clear a couple of things up. Steve and I talked about some of these very things this morning. When we're speaking of love on this site, we should be thinking of it as ROMANTIC LOVE. The kind of love that you have for your parents, or siblings, or friends (or ex-spouse)IS NOT THIS KIND OF LOVE.<p>I agree with Anna, ask any BS, just before they found out about the A, did they love their spouse. I believe you’ll get a RESOUNDING YES! So, can we (the BS) make an instant and concious effort to NOT LOVE our spouse? NO. Just as the WS cannot “choose” to love us. We simply have a large balance in our love banks that cannot instantly be closed out.<p>I think that folks who are saying that love is a choice are misquoting (as a matter of fact, I was misquoted in this very way by WS this week). In actuality, I believe the principle is that placing yourself in a POSITION to love is the choice.....ALLOWING your spouse to meet your EN, ending the A, living at home, and SPENDING QUALITY TIME with your spouse - THOSE are choices. If one does that, then the heart JUST MIGHT follow.<p>SNL, you mentioned something about love being programmed into our DNA----I absolutely refute this premise. Take a look at Eastern cultures. The whole arranged marriage situation. MANY of these people CHOOOOOOOOSE to be happy. They even fall IN LOVE with each other. Sometimes, they don’t, but even then they find the RESPECT in each other that the romantic love often evolves into. There is NO WAY that only those of us in the picky, impatient, Western culture had love programmed into our DNA.<p>One comment for JDMAC1, when you were giving those “sermons”, and we’ve all been there, the one thing that you didn’t have was experience. There’s no way for you (or any of us) to have even CONCEIVED of what one would or should do in these situations. Sure, it seems awefully cut and dried from the outside, but until you’ve actually walked the mile, you have no clue as to what you’re talking about. Please don’t think of it as a double standard or some weakness by you, you simply didn’t have the tools and experience to know what you were talking about. I’m fighting this same battle with WS, her “friends” are telling her that if she’s not happy in the M and IS happy in the A, then she should give up the M for the A. Of course, they’re full of loads of CRAP, because they have absolutely NO IDEA. WS has even agreed that they just don’t understand. Yet she continues to take some stock in their “advice.”<p>I guess that’s it for now. I haven’t finished reading all the replies in the middle, I’ll do that and probably have more later.<p>Peace,
Kev

kevco,<p>I agree with much of what you are saying. As a former BS, I did not choose to fall out of love with my H. It simply happened.<p>When speaking of the love bank, there is a big difference between having no deposits, or perhaps a slight overdraw. But when we're talking something the equivalent of the national debt, a lifetime would not be enough for a WS to make enough deposits into his/her spouse's love bank.<p>Sometimes, just sometimes, our spouses inflict things on us, and they keep inflicting those things, and even when they stop, they don't realize it. Every day that they don't realize it and make a proactive *choice* to make the marriage work ... they are still inflicting the damage. <p>There are people here on MB who have had their love bank restored. Other's are in the process of having those nasty overdrafts being paid. But some are forever stuck with the debt.<p>belld

Hi,<p>I've got a moment, so I'll add a couple of thoughts...<p>First, one thing that has become clearer to me recently is that NOTHING in this world is cut and dry. Even the concept of the Love Bank, for example.<p>For example, my WW admits she loves me - if she were trapped under the rubble of the WTC with a cell phone, she would call ME, NOT OM. So there is a kind of love there that for lack of a better term I'll call "mature love" - the love of 13 years of shared life and many good times.<p>Another example. Sometime during the past 3 months, WW talked to a friend of hers who made her wonder "do I really love OM, or just how he treats me?" - made her stop and actually say "you know, that might make a big difference" - obviously she didn't think this one through carefully enough, because we've gone further down hill since then. But she seemed willing at a point there to actually change her world-view and automagically change my balance in her Love Bank, if she decided that was appropriate.<p>But the point is this... My balance in her love bank has suffered, but it might be different from what she even thinks it is, because she's not allowing herself to truly look at what it is, to look at its potential, etc.<p>When I asked her once "why she's still here", I got "maybe it's like getting into cold water and I have to do it slowly, or maybe deep down I don't really want to." (Hmm - there's a line I hope she shares with OM!!) So telling is this that I have to suspect that she's being dishonest with herself, and that her Love Banks (for both OM and I) are really both fairly full - which is leading to our problems and her deadlock.<p>But the most interesting part is that the position I appear to be in when viewed next to many other folks out there is that I'm way, way overdrawn. So my point? I don't think everything's cut and dry.

double post<p>[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</p>

snl said,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The vast majority of bs here who feel they "love" their spouse and just got to make it work are indeed making a choice, a cold calculated choice that what they have is the best they can do, and until their spouse falls below a given level of reward, that is what they are going to do, and not take the risk of starting over. This is absolutely ok, I am not making a value judgement, but it implies a lot of things, and one of those is if a spouse percieves they can make a
better deal elsewhere, they are free to leave, and in fact that is what they do.<hr></blockquote><p>I think you are afraid. I think you don't feel deserving of your wife's love, and you are afraid that if you let your guard down, sooner or later, when you least expect it, she will leave you for a "better deal."<p>[ December 07, 2001: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</p>

I've been around since 1999, and let me share one of the sayings we used a lot:<p>FAKE IT TILL YOU MAKE IT.<p>If you will do a search, you will find many occasions where we discussed this. <p>If we made a CHOICE to love our spouse, in spite of the pain, our heart would eventually follow suit. That was the idea.<p>This concept seemed to fly in the face of Radical Honesty (except it wasn't called "radical" back then) and felt like the biggest sham of all to me. Yeah, I tried it, but in my case it wasn't to pretend to show love, but forgiveness. It was pretty hard (for me) to show forgiveness to a man who held my sins over my head but continued on his merry way with his OW right under my nose.<p>To me, the lovebank was NOT full when the A's were brought to light. I loved him "just 'cause," in spite of the lovebank being nearly overdrawn. The problem with Kevco's theory is that it had nothing WHATSOEVER to do with ROMANTIC LOVE, it had to do with committment and a feeling that I *should* love this man who was my H. I loved him, and romantic love was still there a bit, but not fully AT ALL. He was a nasty, [censored] of a man (in his own words, not just mine), and the romantic love was all but dead. Still, I fought for the marriage, because it was the right thing to do.<p>Now, a year after the divorce, maybe a bit of revisionist history is at play, because the feelings I have now are much warmer than they have been over the last three years. I have come to terms with the abuse issues (and I still have a very hard time admitting that he was abusive, because I felt that I deserved what he dished out, which was 99% emotional/verbal) and with the issues that led me to have a MLC and the horrible choices that I made (I do NOT blame him for that)... and what I am left with is a pervasive sadness that all those circumstances led to a fractured marriage. <p>So, no, there is not a ROMANTIC LOVE as Harley talks about between my ex and me, but there is a love nonetheless. It's more than snl has to work with, it seems to me. <p>I have fought against snl from the beginning, because he goes against everything we talk about here. He talks about "fitting" and "in-love" and "soulmates"... and it's taken a great deal of time and swallowing of pride to admit that he makes a kind of sense, esp. when discussing the precepts here. Like a religion, MB has it's memorized verses, and I know them all. And like religion too, it works for some, not for all. <p>I will continue to use the concepts in my new marriage because I think they are wonderfully helpful BEFORE problems occur. It kind of reminds me of using good disciplinary actions before children go "bad"... using time outs and taking away privileges after the child has beat another child to a pulp may be a bit late -- had it been used when the child lied about taking a cookie from the jar, it would have set in motion a precident... <p>"Too little too late" comes to mind, and in many marriages, the same applies. I know it did in my past-marriage.

nellie....I think you are afraid. I think you don't feel deserving of your wife's love, and you are afraid that if you let your guard down, sooner or later, when you least expect it, she will leave you for a "better deal."<p>snl..You are in part correct. I am afraid, but not cause I don't deserve to be loved. I think being afraid is what lies at the base of trust and safety, and trust and safety are the foundation in-love is based on. Nor does not trusting mean someone is evil, it is the result of not fitting someone enough, and struggling with being seen and heard. Marital failure (in the sense of not being an in-love passionate marriage) can be for lots of reasons, especially when one party is incapable of bonding (as is often the case with folks that have varying degrees of personality disorders), it is less clear, and more frustrating and unhappy when the issues are simply cause the people don't fit enough, and stress each other by just simply existing. The most frustrating example is expectation of depth of bond. I know now that varies considerably between people, and is directly related to temperament (and other things). If the disparity is too great there will be irreconcilable conflict, cause the marriage works better for one than the other, and it always will. This means the one who wants it less must make a sacrificial choice, in human terms that means resentment (we cannot escape it, no matter how many platitudes we mouth about choosing to be happy, it is the psychological truth of being human, we also cannot flap our arms and fly just cause we decide too), and resentment (or embracing denial and burying it) extracts a price from the marriage, and that price is to one degree or another lonliness.<p>Thanks for all the responses, I will comment more on others stuff later.<p>[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]<p>[ December 08, 2001: Message edited by: sad_n_lonely ]</p>

anna...Have you considered this possibility? There are needs you are meeting for her to be in love with you that you do not realize you are meeting.<p>snl..Yes I have considered it. I think we all meet some needs when married, or in any human relationship. I don't think that is particularly relevant to in-love. I think the notion of meeting needs works well in chosen relationships, be it neighbors, friends, family, co-workersd, social actions, etc. If (by definition) a given relationship is meeting no needs at all, why would we be in it, if we are sane? I am meeting some fundamental needs for wife, domestic support, financial support, admiration, affection, conversaton...maybe a little of all of them far as that goes...but so what? I would do that with anyone, it is called caring, being your brothers keeper, common human decency....none of this is about being in-love. If it were we would simply be in-love with whoever met our needs best. And if that is true, then we should seek out who meets our needs best and trade "up" for that...right? The whole notion we are robots, and only respond (in terms of intimate relationships) to whoever meets our needs is starting to make me queasy. <p>The idea that my w loves me in relation to how well I meet her needs makes me want to run screaming into the night, the idea positively horrifies me. I DO NOT want to be a project, I DO NOT want a marriage based on a contract (I will do you if you do me). I DO NOT want my wife calculating my needs and plotting ways to meet them...shudder.<p>anna...Are you sure these people on here are either getting enough needs met to still be in love or have enough deposits left to still have love left over?<p>snl..Yes I am sure. Most of the bs here clearly (IMO) are not in-love, they want to win back what they percieve was taken from them. They think their spouses are not really like this (how that works I have no idea, multiple personalities perhaps?), they want the picture of marriage (note how many say they want their lives back, lives that were a fantasy). They want the security of what they had vs the unknown of starting over, many are co-dependent, many are afraid (think they are too undesireable, no econmic skills, no family support, no self-esteem, etc.) to attract another spouse. I am confident if many of the bs could somehow see the future with certainty, and could see a remarriage with someone they fit very well, felt safe with, knew could trust forever, and have fun with, never be lonely with, etc. etc. I am sure they would rethink trying to restore their marriage with the many ws that clearly will never be safe happy places to be married too. <p>anna...Also, look at it another way...The Harley's speak of the love bank. My husband didn't deposit much love in my bank. However, there were things I admired about him that continued depositing some love in my bank automatically. Just certain things about his character. <p>snl...And you don't admire things in other men. Let's suppose you had opportunity to interact with lots of men. Lots of admirable manly qualities, lots of good conversation, lots of admiration (of you), all very civil and ethical...would you love em all. Would they all be making love deposits? This is another problem with the harley imagery, it reduces love to a contest, who makes the most deposits, and to avoid loving someone else more, you must become a nun or something, is hogwash. You are in-love for other reasons, lovebank is a misnomer, it is simply imagery for how people should treat each other. If a bs wants a better solution than all this suffering, they should simply let someone else fill their lovebank until they no longer care about ws, ergo, problem solved. Instead of plan a, maybe the bs should immediately begin dating, why go through all this suffering (which mostly fails anyways) with a defective ws. If all love is, is lovebank deposits, that implies a whole range of other choices than plan a, and restoration, cause it literally makes no difference who you are married too.<p>anna...Since there weren't many deposits, it was really easy for me to have a breaking point. I went in the red. I fell out of love with him.<p>snl...You never loved him at all. I do not think a marriage license or feelings of desire = love. I think it is much more complicated, and we deceive ourselves all the time. If we are gonna say a ws/op are not in-love, foggy, etc. Then it has to be true that many married people are not in-love either, their feelings that led to marriage not correct, just selfishly using each other, in a fog, etc. And in fact if we look at many troubled marriages, that is exactly true. And if those people were not married, but still dating and such, they would breakup (divorce) right. I suspect many bs here, if had reached this emotional place, and truth about ws, while dating, they would not restore, they would run as fast as they could. So I say again, the harley explanation for human relationships re marriage is flawed, and in that flaw many people strive beyond goods sense, and good mental health, to make relationships they should end, work. <p>MB has nothing to do with building marriages, it is instead an attempt to reprogram your internal paradigms, so you will accept the relationship you are in. It does not, cannot, make you be in-love with someone you do not fit, and you must fit to be in a passionate, safe, joyous, marriage. The two outcomes are similar, and look alike, but they are vastly different fundamentally. One is settleing and negotiating a contract with someone to cohabitate with safe sex, MB is excellent for that, the other is recognizing you are married to someone you fit, if that is what you want in an intimate relationship (to be in-love), and MB can't do that, and in fact if not careful, it can strongly influence you to stay in an unhealthy relationship. I know why MB works sometimes, and it is nothing mysterious, it employs in a structured way some interesting human psychology. <p>Plan a (if done right) is not about making your spouse realize what s/he is missing exactly, it is about making you more desireable, cause part of it is working on you, being independent and strong, of ignoring the A, of not being weak, those are attractive qualities in a human being as a mate. That is what attracts the ws as they compare you to the op. If you can tip the scales you have won them back...for now. But if you neglect to also assess why you want them back, and whether you really are in-love, whether they are worthy, (and not caring love), then you make a grave mistake. I do see some bs contemplating these things, but far too many don't, they just want their spouse back, and when I ask why, I don't usually get very good answers. The fact is many bs here, could take their increased knowledge of human behaviour, and their personal improvements, and go out into the mate market and do much better. In every way their life would be better, emotionally, physically (health), spiritually, yet they don't. MB needs to also suggest that or it is like a cult (one size fits all). A professional psychologist should be concerned with the mental health of who hires them, that MB does not include this component removes it from the realm of psychology. The notion that all marriages can and should be saved is not true, it is psychologically like a doctor telling all their patients you will live it you have the right attitude. In the meantime they die, and had they accepted that they would probably have lived what life they had left differently. We all have to make our own decisions, the psychologists, and the MD can only give us their opinionns. It seems only reasonable that MB also do some assessment and recommendations of re the health of a marriage, whether 2 people should be married (not cause someone is abusive etc,, but based on how they fit). The best outcome for many troubled marriages is a supportive divorce, a healing divorce. Instead divorce is handled as a failure, and makes the traumatic event much worse. Has to be a bad guy and a good guy, why?<p>anna...Now, for him, I made lots of deposits in his love bank. It took three years of neglect for him to finally leave me. It took him thinking I may be having an affair by telling him I no longer loved him, for major deposits to be with drawn. <p>snl...Ya see anna, I view all this quite differently. You never had a successful bond cause you married someone incapable of intimacy. Most serious abusers are sociopaths, incapable of bonding. But they have needs, and as long as they can get them met appear in varying degrees to be meeting yours. Couple that with the blindness of many female spouses to the reality they have married a monster (denial), and you have just what you experienced. We (humans) seem to have this very naive notion that most of the people we know are ok, normal people, and you just marry one of them, and work a little, and everything is peachy. Everyone here now knows that is not true, but are all caught up in their own disasrters, and denial and fear run rampant. Fact is, I think the reason we have so much marital disharmony is not cause their is something wrong with our ethics or morals, (which is like saying we would be better humans if we weren/t human), but because intimacy is a very unnatural act, we are mostly drawn togethe by sex, and that drive is so strong we overlook much. <p>But now that we have evolved societies where psychological needs beyond simply procreating can be recognized and acted on, we are unwilling to accept marriage as an absolute, a life sentence to someone who does not fill us up very much. So we divorce, or demand changes in our spouses. However, people cannot change all that much, and here we are, essentially decideing to settle, or start over, and weighing the pros and cons. IMO a sizeable chunk of humanity is incapable of intimate bonding with anyone, but they marry to get needs met. And that is also part of the problem, they trigger the rescue mode in many, who then become co-dependent and try to "fix" them....this causes untold grief, and raises the question I ask all the time, why be married at all then? Or if you are, why not to someone who does not need to be fixed? Divorce em, let em fix themselves (as they must), and then if you want, date em, and marry em again....why don't people do that? Why are they so afraid of divorce and seperation, means nothing, you can always decide to do it again. IMO I think it would be better (psychologically) if everyone in serious disharmony divorce, that makes it all much clearer, and then do MB stuff (and stop sex, until you both passionately choose each other and remarry). There are practical economic issues I realize, I am just speaking from a mental health sense.<p>anna...He still has some love for me though. This is because I deposited a great deal of love in his bank for 13 years.<p>snl...I don't think love is like this at all. It is a senseless notion. Unless you wish someone dead I think it is safe to say we all see value in folks, and "love" them. But if that is all love is, then we love everyone, and we all have deposits in each others banks....however this in no way can help us make decisions re intimate bonding choices, so is a useless notion...right? It seems that people often mix up caring love, respect love, love of fellow man, with discussions of intimate love, or considerations of staying married...EVERYONE has value, that is not the point. The point is, do you want, selfishly WANT, to wake up next to this person the rest of your life more than anything else in life. Do you feel completely safe, and totally vulnerable (no gaurding), are you joyous (never lonely), does your spouse "see" you, and "hear" you, or are you just there, these are the things in-love is about, and why we marry. But many don't, they are willing to settle, MB is good for that. <p>anna...This is true with your wife too. She may be in the black right now, but as time goes by, if you don't make the deposits or you make too many withdrawals, she too will be in the red.<p>snl....By now you know this imagery does not work for me. I think my wife is a good person, but has her own emotional and psychological agenda vastly different than mine. Because we don't fit, there has been a lot of turmoil over the years, the natural consequence of living in intimacy with someone you do not fit. I do "fill" her lovebank in some ways, the problem is (for me) anyone could do that, none of it is unique to em. She would "love" whoever she is married too, she has told me caring love is all she needs...what do you do with that? I just fill a role, that is all. She needs someone who feels the same way about love, just love whoever you happened to marry, who you are being unimportant. The downside is caring only works when both feel equally nurtured, and that happens less and less as you reduce fit. The natural consequence is anger and conflict. If you can learn not to do that (with alot of self-discipline) then you can make it tolerable, just sad and lonely.<p>anna...Each of us have a different level of tolerence. One small deposit for one person, could be a huge deposit for another. You can not measure how much it will take for one person to finally break and say, your love is now bankrupt. This is all individual.<p>snl...exactly anna, exactly.<p>anna..Someone questioned your questioning the Harley's and indicated this was wrong due to there knowledge. I disagree with this, I respect persons with degrees but when applying their theorys to my own life, I question also. <p>snl...Absolutely, we have to live in our skins, and no expert is "perferct", so clearly everything the harleys say or counsel has to be taken with a large grain of salt. It must make sense, and be independently verifiable. I like some of the MB stuff, but it does not answer for me the most important questions, why be married at all, and if so, to who.<p>anna...The Harley's, in my opinion, do have one of the best approaches to marriage counseling I have ever seen. <p>snl...I agree, the danger lies in looking at it as a panacea, a gaurantee all will be well. It is only a tool, and cannot answer the question of should you rebuild a particular marriage.<p>omy...Have you ever read anything by the Dalai Lama? If so, what is your opinion of this man and his philosophies/practices?<p>snl...Yes, but not in a long time. But you piqued my interest, so I may take some time and revisit it. I recall the dalai concept being interesting (as are the tibetan mating habits, one of only 2 ever known polyandrous societies....multiple husbands, one wife). I can't recall exactly whether the dalai plays a role similar to the pope. But in general I am vehemently opposed to any deification type activity of humans. We are all the same, and I personally recognize no hman authority. I am not nationalistic, patriotic, racist, cultist (in my religious beliefs) etc. etc. Everyone is born, dies, and puts their pants on one leg at a time, all humans are eaual. We vary in ability, and have greater or lesser power over others due to positions of responsibility, but that is all. <p>I only respect one thing, competence, tempered with love of fellow wo/man. I follow no one, and think entirely for myself. I also accept total responsibility for everything that happens to me. I go for a drive, and get wiped out by a drunk driver, I am not a victim, I know the risks of driving.... maybe if a meteor were to fall on my head that would be a victim, but there is very little in life that is not related to choices I make. People who stay in abusive marriages, people who stay in dead end jobs, women who are assaulted, etc. etc. none are victims, we all made choices that put us in those positions. Where we get messed up is about fairness, and how life should be, what folks simply don't seem to understand is we live in an implacable universe, and their is no "law" about fairness, their is only survival...make "good" choices and you survive, "bad" ones any you don't, the details vary considerably, but that is all their is. And the minute we give up responsibility for ourselves, start beleiveing we are victims, we are done, the battle is lost. This is a hard way to live, and puts us at odds often with others. And it is why sometimes I seem to hard when I am giving advice, but it is the only way to stay mentally healthy. I know when I allow myself to wallow in self-pity (victim, woe is me), my life gets worse. It is not always easy to be proactive, to make choices, even hard ones, and act on them, but it is healthy...and the moment we give that over to someone else we start down a road to ruin. Cali (et al) is right to some extent about choosing to be happy, I give her a hard time, but I essentially agree with her and that notion, I just disagree in what it implies, and how it is carried out.<p>omy...Do you believe that ending your marriage would make you happy?<p>snl...Obviously that would require a fair amount of discussion, cause it is a simplistic question re a complex issue, but essentially yes. Not "make" me happy, but create the conditions whereby my life more closely matches my internal paradigms, and that is why we have the happy emotion. Others (steve) suggest I am not thinking clearly, and that there are better choices. One of us is right, and one of us is wrong. He has the advantage of a the experience gained in years of practive/observation re marital harmony and how that relates to happiness, I have the advantage of knowing who I am, and who my w is far better than anyone else can, and I have to live the life, he doesn't.<p>omy...The mind is a VERY POWERFUL thing. If you honestly believe it, then it is probably so.<p>snl...I would say..duh?????????? (if you can't believe yourself, what do you do?) But I think you mean we can self-program in oppositiion to reality, more commonly referred to as denial [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Of course marie, that is the demon we must all wrestle with. You deal with it in several ways, one is by taking time appropriate to the circumstances to avoid a hasty/wrong decision made in the heat of the moment (few divorce that precipitously), the second is to seek reality checks from qualified observeers, third is to do due diligence (study the issue hard), fourth is to pray about it.... you do all this and I am comfortable truth is revealed.<p>omy...Perhaps ending your marriage is BEST for you. Why are you fighting yourself so vigorously?<p>snl...For the above reasons. If I wanted self-serving validation I would go to a divorce support site.<p>omy...Are you truly looking for someone/anyone to convince you to change your mind?<p>snl...I am not looking for someone to convince me of anything, I will make all the decisions in my life. I just want to hear all the arguments, observations, stories etc. In a way, all of us lead very sheltered lives maritally. People tend to keep their troubles secret, and of course we only live with the one person. We are extremely ignorant. I needed to correct that. I know I am not happy, I know my wife is not happy, but I had very little knowledge to explain it. This is not something you can correct overnight. Also I think it is useful for this to be on the table between two people for awhile so they can sort things out. But it does not go on forever, I guess you could say I am in the final stages of understanding, I am feeling ever more confident I understand all my feelings, and the psychology of human bonding, from that base I can make rational, and appropriate decisions. I will not be able to assess with certainty, cause life is in part about the choices you make, you cannot predict the future exactly, it is more about casting your bread upon the waters, but the casting should be done proactively. <p>sheryl...A few thoughts: I have always maintained that love is a feeling. Love is a choice doesn't work for me. <p>snl...I have posted alot on this, I think it is both, and therein lies the conflict. MB suggests it is all a decsion (as do many), some say it is just a feeling, you just know (if that were true why do their marriages fail?). It is both, and when done correctly the likelihood of success rises dramatically.<p>sheryl...Love, to me, is like respect. It's earned. Now, I love a lot of people, not because they are lovable necessarily, but because I just do. I don't have a reason, or maybe I do: like I love my mom, and my sister, and my friend Kim who I haven't layed eyes on in ten years (but we talk on the phone once a month)... none of them is meeting all my needs, and sometimes they aren't meeting any of my needs, but I love them anyway.<p>snl...This does not sound like you meant to use the word earned. <p>sheryl...There are some people I don't love. Sometimes they are very nice to me, and are (in theory) meeting my needs, but I don't love them for some reason I can't even pinpoint.<p>snl..exactly. Now imagine being married to every man you know (not all at once), they act decent, and seek to meet your needs, do you care who you are married too? Of course you do. Why? Cause there are differences you cannot articulate, but are of vital importance.<p>sheryl...My H is meeting all of my top needs, although we are struggling in some ways that touch on some of the lesser needs (financially, for example). I love him completely. I think about him and have all these nice warm fuzzy feelings... <p>
snl...You allow yourself to be 100% vulnerable, and you trust him completely, you feel safe...you do this cause you feel he "sees" you, he "hears" you, it is a very powerful feeling, and it is in-love...if it is returned the same way....otherwise it is fantasy, and only a matter of time until you are seriously injured. That is why making a rational assessment is so important. We can sorta choose to give ourselves this way, but if we don't also believe to the best of our ability (due diligence) it is being returned in kind, we have erred. Still you cannot be sure, and a leap of faith is required, but you will know soon enough if you erred.<p>sheryl...I read, was it here, on this thread?, that MB is like a cult. I chuckled when I read that. You know, sometimes it DOES feel like that. I don't think it's dangerous or anything, but sometimes I think the cognitive approach clouds the very real and human feelings we have. <p>snl...Cult like, not a cult. Anytime you let someone else make decisions for you, direct your life, and do it by a forumla, you start down a slippery slope. I also think the harleys have a personal stake it proselytizing their method, are not fully professional, a little zealotry. But hey, guess being passionate about what you do and believe is not a bad thing. I just think they need to pay a little more attention to both sides, divorce and restoration. If their goal is mental health, then they should include all solutions in their recommendations. There is just too much emphasis on the restoring then "picute" and assuming you will be happy. That makes one feel defective if it doesn't seem to work, like what is wrong with me. I don't think it is dangerous per se either. If one has to err, I guess trying to be a better person, and relate better to another in hopes of making a satisfactory marraige is the way to err.<p>anna....How do you see your glass?<p>snl...full.<p>kevin...Let me clear a couple of things up. Steve and I talked about some of these very things this morning. When we're speaking of love on this site, we should be thinking of it as ROMANTIC LOVE. The kind of love that you have for your parents, or siblings, or friends (or ex-spouse)IS NOT THIS KIND OF LOVE.<p>I agree with Anna, ask any BS, just before they found out about the A, did they love their spouse. I believe you’ll get a RESOUNDING YES! <p>
snl...I don't think so kevin. I think you get a lot of people who were in denial re ther realities of their marriages. Also many bs acknowledge they were very lonely and neglected. The "love" you refer to cannot exist when you feel that way IMO. But you can "care", and that is what is confusing.<p>kevin...So, can we (the BS) make an instant and concious effort to NOT LOVE our spouse? NO. Just as the WS cannot “choose” to love us. We simply have a large balance in our love banks that cannot instantly be closed out.<p>snl....I think it is far simpler. The bs simply is unwilling to redo their life, that is harder than trying to fix the marriage, and deal with the attempt by the ws to divorce them (which in a sense is what an A is, except for the sex addicts).<p>kevin...I think that folks who are saying that love is a choice are misquoting (as a matter of fact, I was misquoted in this very way by WS this week). In actuality, I believe the principle is that placing yourself in a POSITION to love is the choice.....<p>snl...Ok, kinda how I see it too. But that brings in motivation, the ws has every right to say I don't really want to do that.<p>kevin...ALLOWING your spouse to meet your EN, ending the A, living at home, and SPENDING QUALITY TIME with your spouse - THOSE are choices. If one does that, then the heart JUST MIGHT follow.<p>snl...yep.<p>kevin...SNL, you mentioned something about love being programmed into our DNA----I absolutely refute this premise. <p>snl...You can't refute it, Everything you are, every thought you make, every action you take, will be different if you change your dna.<p>kevin....Take a look at Eastern cultures. The whole arranged marriage situation. MANY of these people CHOOOOOOOOSE to be happy. <p>
snl...No they don't, and their failure rate (not in-love) is about the same as western cultures. Remember, the piece of paper means nothing, we are talkng psychological well-being. Folks have studied this stuff. Married or not, disharmony is about the same. This suggests and interesting conclusion, our dating efforts are ineffective, they should give us a much better outcome. But it seems so obvious now, few people who date make in real effort (due diligence) to assess the relationship. More often than not they just go with the feelings. For example you, you were not marriage material (by your own admission re your personal issues), your wife never should have married you...correct? If she had not, had married someone more stable and fit her better she may not be in the mess she is today. Obviously choosing the 19yo is a very bad choice (most likely), but that does not mean marrying you was not also a bad choice. I think when we marry poorly their is a consequence, and that is we reduce our successful development as human beings, that is the exact opposite of how marriage should enrich us....anyways just another angle. I am not trying to be mean to you btw, yoy are on record as appreciateing all viewpoints, so I give you the straight stuff.<p>kevin...They even fall IN LOVE with each other. Sometimes, they don’t, but even then they find the RESPECT in each other that the romantic love often evolves into. There is NO WAY that only those of us in the picky, impatient, Western culture had love programmed into our DNA.<p>snl...I think you are confusing random chance. You take millions of people and throw them together via arrangement or dating, and sure some will be a good match...so? If this interests you go do some homework then get back to me. There are many books coming out now about evolutionary psychology, it is pretty much a done deal, our dna (and how our parents dna matched) pretty much determines who we are, including who we fit. And we are discovering regularly how the dna in disparate individuals recognizes and "choose" the dna in others...fascinating stuff.<p>jr...First, one thing that has become clearer to me recently is that NOTHING in this world is cut and dry. Even the concept of the Love Bank, for example.<p>snl...absolutely, human interaction is very complex, and includes much more than the simple concept of love banks. If it were that simple I suspect humans would have figured this out and acted on it millions of years ago.<p>jr...Another example. Sometime during the past 3 months, WW talked to a friend of hers who made her wonder "do I really love OM, or just how he treats me?" - made her stop and actually say "you know, that might make a big difference" - <p>snl...It makes a huge difference, and what due diligence is about. But it applies in both directions. Being married is often no different, we just are less likely to question it, and put up with non-nurturing marriages. <p>jr...obviously she didn't think this one through carefully enough, because we've gone further down hill since then. <p>snl...Maybe cause the same analysis applies to the marriage. The thing is people try to act as if an A is any different than a marriage, as if a piece of paper means anything (psychologically). It doesn't of course, it can't. The reality is we are all programmed to mate, and to make the best deal we can, makes no difference if we are married or not. So if we marry poorly (don't fit well, or one spouse has various personality disorders) there is little holding the marriage together, and "dating" happens.<p>jr...But the point is this... My balance in her love bank has suffered, but it might be different from what she even thinks it is, because she's not allowing herself to truly look at what it is, to look at its potential, etc.<p>snl....This is about internal paradigms jr, she may not want to change who she is to "see" your potential, cause she does not percieve that potential is worthwhile. That does not make her wrong, she has to live in her skin. If we are married and reach crisis, all anyone can do is hope as each party reasseses who they are, they end up wanting you, if they don't it is best not to force it, but to amicably divorce.<p>jr...When I asked her once "why she's still here", I got "maybe it's like getting into cold water and I have to do it slowly, or maybe deep down I don't really want to." (Hmm - there's a line I hope she shares with OM!!) So telling is this that I have to suspect that she's being dishonest with herself, and that her Love Banks (for both OM and I) are really both fairly full - which is leading to our problems and her deadlock.<p>snl...All this imagery can just drive you crazy. That is why I do like the plan a done right, it is about you, and being desireable to boot, you go to plan b, then you divorce, anywhere along the way the ws can choose you, and act accordingly. If not you get your life back. She must choose, trying to figure her out, or act like you think she wants does not have a good outcome.<p>sheryl...I've been around since 1999, and let me share one of the sayings we used a lot:
FAKE IT TILL YOU MAKE IT.<p>snl..Yeah I know what you mean, but I think it is poor advice, there is a name for that it is called brainwashing, and does not lead to good outcomes. I think ws do fear this a bit, that if we just keep doing it, we will get worn down, and lose the courage to leave, we will settle, make do, get too old, whatever. So it "works" but does not mean reuslts in a healthy relationship.<p>sheryl...Now, a year after the divorce, maybe a bit of revisionist history is at play, because the feelings I have now are much warmer than they have been over the last three years. <p>snl...That is cause you are not married to him, can safely be altrusitic, and don't want to think of your life as a total loss. revisionist indeed, but understandable (and possibly some residual co-dependentcy feelings, they should fade with time, and nurturing history with your new H).<p>sheryl...LOVE as Harley talks about between my ex and me, but there is a love nonetheless. It's more than snl has to work with, it seems to me.<p>snl...I don't think such things are love, they are all about caring. The only difference between me an many is I can seperate the two. I care about my w alot, but I am willing and able to also look at our marriage objectively for what it is and what it is not. It was not, is not, a good marriage. It is not a safe nurturing place for either of us. The only question is why not, and what can be done about that. <p>sheryl..."Too little too late" comes to mind, and in many marriages, the same applies. I know it did in my past-marriage.<p>snl...I don't think this applies when in-love, a whole different set of stuff goes on. But it does apply in settling, accomodation type love. That is the nature of contracts, you snooze you lose.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
[QB]
<<<<You know zorweb (just for ruminating, not trying to start anything) there is a name for blind obedience to anything manmade, and it is called cultism. In some ways MB resembles a cult. It is highly structured behavioural modification, it does not do well under close scrutiny of its principles. There are huge holes in it's application as well. >>>><p>So take what you can use and leave the rest. I did versions of Plan A and Plan B that suited my situation and my H and I are happier than we have ever been. MB has some great advice to follow and some extremely valid points.<p><<< people in-love have no need of MB (or at least only benefit minimally from some of the behavioural suggestions) cause they will never have affairs or divorce anyways, but such love is not common.>>><p>Lol. You obviously don't live in the world I live in. In my own personal life I have known several men (but not any women) who were very much in love with their wives and happy with their home situations who had affairs. The thought of their wives finding out, causing her pain and her possibly leaving paralyzed them with fear. But they did it anyway. I had a lengthy discussion with one of these men who was a close friend about his A and he said it made no sense to him either. He truly felt that his wife was his soulmate and never wanted to lose her, but he still had an A. You are alos not taking inot account the people who make the mistake of having an A while they are in a low point. Love ebbs and flows throughout any long relationship. Take a person who is at a low point for some reason (job stress, midlife crisis, depression etc) and engaged in their own little personal pity party. Add inot the mix someone new (by sheer virtue of being new that also means exciting) who shows interest and it's a recipe for a big mistake to be made. My H was kind of at that point and so was my best friend when she had her A. She told me that the one thing the A made her realize more than anything was how much she truly loved her husband and that he was the best man on earth for her. They are still going strong and happy 7 years later.
I do believe there are couples that just aren't meant to be. I was in a long term relationship like that. Luckily we never got married, but if we had it would have been a huge mistake and we definitely would have ended up divorced. But any married person has every right to fight for their marriage. My H is certainly glad that I did.

Hi all,<p>Definition of love? This subject periodically comes up. I think the word is loosely used in our society today. <p>One of the definitions of love is that it does not look out for it's own interest. Along with being kind, not bragging, not get jealous, not behave indecently, not become provoked or keep account of the injury, is long suffering, not rejoice over unrighteousness but rejoices with the truth, it bears all things hopes all things endures all things. Love never fails. I did leave out one piece (it believes all things) and for a reason. <p>So why does the WS have in-love feelings for the OP? I agree there are feelings which one(s) of the above feelings are they? I as a BS can tell you which ones I have for my spouse. Am I perfect at it? Nope. But I am willing to work on it. <p>Why did I as the BS keep trying? Because of that definition above. Yes, our marriage may end and my H knows (by his own admission) it is not because his wife did not try with all her might. H recently asked if I felt guilty, I said no not any more. He agreed.<p>The definitions are not mine to make up. The application of it is. <p>L.<p>[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: Orchid ]</p>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
[QB]cali...Can you actually NAME couples who are in-love all the time 24/7 ???? 'cause they'd make a fortune if they wrote a book about it....>>><p>I know some! Let's see, Rapunzel and the Handsome Prince, Cinderella and the Handsome Prince, Snow White and... Oh wait, they aren't real people. Real people have good days and bad days. Real love isn't champagne and roses 24/7. Some days it is, some days it's not. When I'm scrubbing the toilet in my H's bathroom I'm not all dreamy eyed thinking "Oh look, my precious man peed on the seat and left it for me to clean up. I am so in love. Sigh." That's just not realistic and I think I'd be sort of deranged if I acted like that. But then he comes home and those in love feelings come rushing back, just as I knew they would. Ebb and flow, wax and wane. But overall it's great. The wonderful far outweighs the negative. That's what it's all about to me.<p>
<<<snl...No, I don't personally know any. But I believe the people who have seen them. It is not something you can put in a book, you cannot learn this. It is just the simple outcome of fitting someone closely psychologically.
issues out with their former spouses....>>>><p>You know my H and I have always had a deep connection and a "fit". Even when he told me he wanted a divorce he said that. He also said that it scared him, that I knew him too well, that it was like we could read each other's minds. We are alike in many ways, and our differences compliment each other. In his mental state at the time it seemed so much easier to him to be with someone who really didn't know him at all, someone who he had nothing in common with. She was young, he wanted to be young again. Good enough. People screw up. But our bond was the one that held in the end and brought us back together, closer than ever.<p><<<snl..buyers remorse. We often think the grass was greener where we left. But I suspect more do not regret.>>><p> I think people who leave on their own, without an OP, are much less likely to regret. Their decison is based only on the state of the relationship, not that they have backup nookie waiting for them in the car. A decison to strike out on your own, alone, is carefully thought out. Still some of those people are sorry. Almost everyone I've known who left for an OP eventaully decided they made a big mistake. I can honestly say I have never regretted a decison to leave a relationship. I always left on my own. But every single guy who has ever broken up with me has tried to come back at some time. In my observations in real life it has seemed that women are less likely to decide they should have stayed put than men. Except when women who leave for an OM get dumped by the OM (which happens all the time). Then they try to run back to their H's, who are much less forgiving in general than betrayed wives. Interesting webs we weave.<p>[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: fairydust ]<p>[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: fairydust ]</p>

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by fairydust:
<strong>[QUOTE]Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
[QB]cali...Can you actually NAME couples who are in-love all the time 24/7 ???? 'cause they'd make a fortune if they wrote a book about it....>>><p>I know some! Let's see, Rapunzel and the Handsome Prince, Cinderella and the Handsome Prince, Snow White and... Oh wait, they aren't real people. ]</strong><hr></blockquote><p>ROFL!!! thanks for the laugh, fairydust!

<<< people in-love have no need of MB (or at least only benefit minimally from some of the behavioral suggestions) cause they will never have affairs or divorce anyways, but such love is not common.>>><p>
People in-love are the very ones who do need MB. Why? Because they need to know how to nurture that love and keep it from dying from neglect. Most marriages that die do so not from a lack of love but from a lack of that love being nurtured. Love, like a garden, only grows as long as it is cultivated.<p>There are only a very small number of people who know who to nurture love instinctively. Those are the few who are able to stay in-love for a very long time. If you spoke to any of them you will find that even those people have their ups and downs. There are days when patience, commitment and humor are what pull them through. I’ve read several interviews and/or books about such marriages. They all say the same thing. <p>The interesting thing is that you refute what Dr. Harley says about marriage and a behavioral approach to it. But he and his wife seem to have one of those magical marriages. He has helped thousands of people return their marriage to passionate love. Yet you still say his methods do not work. You CHOOSE to not see it when they do work. That is your choice. MB works for those couples in which both spouses choose to embrace the concepts and live by them. It does not mean that they never have a disagreement Nor that they never have something to work out . Nor that they are never frustrated with each other. It means that if you average the curve of their feelings over the long hall, the curve will fall into the in-love quadrant because the not-in-love feelings are minimal.<p>[QUOTE]Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
[QB]cali...Can you actually NAME couples who are in-love all the time 24/7 ???? 'cause they'd make a fortune if they wrote a book about it....>>><p>Yes, I do know people who are “in-love” all the time and they are not fairy tail characters. They are people who genuinely love their spouses. Again it is the definition of ‘in-love’ that matters here. If ‘in-love’ is defined as having that butterfly feeling about your lover ALL the time then it will be harder to find people who are in-love 24/7 for an entire live time. And if the butterfly feeling is your measure, then what magnitude of ‘butterfly feeling’ counts? Does even one little, tinny iota count? Or does it have to register at some level to count? You can see how ridiculous this can get to be.<p>I can tell you that I love STL 24/7. The only time this feeling has been challenged was in the first 2 weeks after d-day. During that time I was mostly working on balancing my understanding of who he is with the new knowledge I had of him. If I had not loved him 24/7 I would have just walked away.<p>And you know what? The vast majority of WS’s will tell you that they love their spouses too. That is why the vast majority of WS’s try to hide their affairs. They love their spouse and do not want to hurt them. The affairs are an individual attempt to deal with some inner problems with the WS.. Like not having certain needs met or psychological problems of their own. Love does not protect from people making stupid/hurtful choices. This was a hard one for me to learn. STL says he has always loved me. He has never said otherwise. Says he has never felt otherwise. But he was dealing with his own daemons during his affairs. They had nothing to do with me and his relationship with me. (You need to read our entire story to understand why I say this.)<p>SnL, you need to realize that most of the cases we see here on MB are the hardcore ones. The ones where the WS is being very abusive and in many cases they do not have feelings of “in-love” for the BS. But this is not the norm. That is why MB works for most couples. <p>You will see what you want in life. We all create our own reality. Your assumptions that love is all about psychological fit assumes that we have no free will and no control over our lives. I’ve been in love enough times and in enough relationships to know that psychological fit is only one of the components. It is perhaps one of the components hat gets us together. It is not the ONLY ONE that keeps us together. Perhaps that is an advantage I have for having been in many relationships. I know from experience how fragile ‘in-love’, how fleeting that feeling of ‘in-love’ and ‘soul mate’ can be. People stay in love over the long haul only when they nurture their relationship. MB is about the nurturing.<p>SnL, you may never find that permanent ‘in-love’, 24/7 feeling because your definition of it is impossible. It is the juvenile stuff that old love stories are made of. It’s what drove Romeo and Juliet and many others in these impossible love stories. If you will go back and look at these stories, they are never about the long haul. They are only about the initial ‘in-love’ feeling. Look at most operas, the entire usually happens in a matter of days.. Then by the end of the opera they lovers are dead. Since they have never had to face the reality of every day life their love looks pure…. It’s just lust and chemicals. That’s why I hate operas. Some of the music is ok (sorry mom… my mom was an star at the NY Met Opera) but I cannot get past the ridiculous stories. I just want to shake the characters and say.. “grow up.”<p>You know, the interesting thing about these old love stories is that they tended to be written by men who went from one love affair to another. They were not men who knew who to maintain a life long love interest. And some people actually buy into these dreams my men ill equipped handle long term relationships.<p>Choose your mentors more wisely. Choose those who have working relationships instead of those who seek the unattainable. <p>SnL, you will never find true love on your current path. You will never be happy in your marriage. I do fear that you will need to follow your ‘soul mate’ to learn that she too is not our soul mate. She is just your Juliet. If ever end up with your OW, that relationship will end up exactly where you and she are in your current marriages. Why? Because neither of you know who to make a marriage work. It’s can be a very long and lonely life going from one love affair to another refusing to do the work for long-term success.<p>You are free to make that choice. I highly implore you to not sit there in your relationship with thinker and torment her and yourself with these ruminations. But I am sure that you will continue down this road as you are comfortable with thinker and this ruminating and ‘intellectual’ bantering you love to do about ‘illusive love.’ I don’t know how thinker puts up with this. Guess the poor woman just loves you.<p>If you spent the time you spend on-line ruminating(here at MB and on other boards) working on your marriage and having fun with thinker.. you'd fall back in romantic love with her.<p>Z [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>SNL: MB has nothing to do with building marriages, it is instead an attempt to reprogram your internal paradigms, so you will accept the relationship you are in. It does not, cannot, make you be in-love with someone you do not fit...<hr></blockquote><p>I understand that this is your opinion, SnL. However, you often speak of being on a "mission of sorts" to understand yourself/your marriage. With this is mind, I often wonder how (or why) you are so adamant about the fact that Harley's "program" does not/cannot help you build in-love feelings with someone???<p>Furthermore, I DO understand the point that you make against Harley: if meeting needs worked in all instances, we could love ANYONE that met our needs at any given time, which isn't possible. (or, using your exact words: If there is no mystery to in-love, no passion, no special fit than what's the point? I can hire someone to meet all my needs far as that goes, would I then love em? ...why don't we fall in love with someone who admires us, gives us financial security, gives us stimulating conversation, etc. etc. according to harley principles we should love whoever does that.)<p>I agree that we WILL NOT automatically fall in-love with whoever chooses to meet our needs. However, I think it is important to point out that in rebuilding marriages we are NOT talking about ANY PERSON. In most instances, we are talking about two individuals that at one point in time were in-love with each other, enough to marry.<p>Furthermore, for the principles to "work", both spouses in the marriage must open themselves up to the possibility that IT CAN WORK. I'm not saying that it WILL work for everyone, just that IT IS POSSIBLE.<p>I guess I just don't understand how you can say that you ARE OPEN to exploring new ideas, new concepts, new philosophies, etc., but then seem to so easily "pooh-pooh" the Harley's formula.<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>SNL SAID:...make "good" choices and you survive, "bad" ones and you don't, the details vary considerably, but that is all their is. <p>and: I will not be able to assess with certainty, cause life is in part about the choices you make, you cannot predict the future exactly, it is more about casting your bread upon the waters, but the casting should be done proactively. <hr></blockquote><p>Sometimes, what appears to be a "good" decision (even after painstakingly doing your homework)can turn out to be a disaster...then again, sometimes a "bad" decision can turn out just fine. I think I agree more with your second statement: that you cannot predict the future [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] .<p>BTW, again I take exception to the "but that is all there is" portion of your quote above. I emphatically state: There IS MORE!!!!...there CAN BE a moderately good or moderately bad decision. There is an in-between "gray area"...it's not always just black or white (at least not in my world [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] ).<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>omy...The mind is a VERY POWERFUL thing. If you honestly believe it, then it is probably so.<p>snl...I would say..duh?????????? (if you can't believe yourself, what do you do?) But I think you mean we can self-program in oppositiion to reality, more commonly referred to as denial.<hr></blockquote><p>No, I don't think you understand what I mean...or, maybe perhaps you do, and I just don't understand your explanation of it...LOL. Anyway, what I meant was more like the "little engine that could,"...I think I can, I think I can, I think I can (type-thinking) -vs- IT CAN'T BE DONE (type-thinking). I'm not talking about the impossible (ie: believing you can fly simply by flapping your arms and then jumping off a cliff). Moreover, I have seen some amazing things in regards to cancer survivorship based on positive thinking/self-talk.<p>Hence, I maintain that most people who passionately believe that something is attainable will succeed.<p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>The vast majority of bs here who feel they "love" their spouse and just got to make it work are indeed making a choice, a cold calculated choice that what they have is the best they can do, and until their spouse falls below a given level of reward, that is what they are going to do, and not take the risk of starting over.<hr></blockquote><p>Of course, I'm going to disagree with this quote. Speaking for all my friends in RECOVERY, I do not think your opinion of the "vast majority of BS here" is accurate. As for myself, my choice to repair my marriage was not a cold, calculated choice. It was a very long, mature, loving, and well thoughtout decision.

Furthermore, I'm not certain that my H is the best I can do; nor am I vain enough to think that my H couldn't do better. But make no mistake, I don't think either of us have SETTLED. Rather, I see us as both willing to forgive each other for our faults, while recognizing that we are able to restore our passionate in-love feelings for each other. WE ARE BELIEVERS...stupid perhaps, but currently happily working towards the same goal [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] . <p>
<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>When you are not happy it can only mean two things, you need to change yourself, OR you need to change your life.<hr></blockquote><p>Yes, I agree! Although, I would perhaps phrase it slightly different: When you are not happy, you need to challenge yourself and possibly change your personal beliefs/views/frame of mind, or you need to remove yourself from the situation which is causing you pain/unhappiness. <p>
Thanks for the opportunity to bounce my ideas around! Peace, ~Marie<p>[ December 09, 2001: Message edited by: ohmy_marie ]</p>

fairy...I know some! Let's see, Rapunzel and the Handsome Prince, Cinderella and the Handsome Prince, Snow White and... Oh wait, they aren't real people. <p>snl...How do you know they weren't? Could be they were representative of stuff we know in our subconcious? Anyways very cute, ridicule is a powerful tool to diminish a point...but really sorta misses the mark. In any event, was cute, and I wondered who would do that. And maybe you are right, maybe there really is no such thing as love, and it really all is quid pro quo. I sure hope not though.<p>fairy...You know my H and I have always had a deep connection and a "fit". Even when he told me he wanted a divorce he said that. <p>snl...Then why did he say it? Obviously something does not add up.<p>fairy...He also said that it scared him, that I knew him too well, that it was like we could read each other's minds. We are alike in many ways, and our differences compliment each other. In his mental state at the time it seemed so much easier to him to be with someone who really didn't know him at all, someone who he had nothing in common with. She was young, he wanted to be young again. Good enough.<p>snl...Good enough? I don't think so fairy, no offense but if you want to believe this was a simple error and has nothing to do with who he is, then that is your choice. But IMO humans don't function that way, and A is a significant event, it does mean something, and that something is he does not love you, he is settleing for you IMO. People also "love" someone so much they murder them, few of us would be comfortable thinking that was a simple mistake and they really did love them. An A is no different. The momement someone turns away from a marriage they are no longer married (or more likely never were in the first place). The resultant crisis can lead to a reassessment of what one has to lose, and the known vs the unknown, and choose to settle, far as I can see happens all the time. I don't believe affairs are some sort of inexplicable accident, that is too convienient a way to embrace denial.<p>fairy...People screw up. But our bond was the one that held in the end and brought us back together, closer than ever.<p>snl...Let's hope so. And I do wish you the best.<p>fairy...I think people who leave on their own, without an OP, are much less likely to regret. Their decison is based only on the state of the relationship, not that they have backup nookie waiting for them in the car. A decison to strike out on your own, alone, is carefully thought out. Still some of those people are sorry. <p>snl..I agree, one should leave a relationship based on its merits, not as a trade in. Some are indeed sorry, so are many who stay married and come to realize they wasted their life on someone. Mistakes of all kinds abound. One can only due do diligence, and have the courage to act, one way or another.<p>fairy...Almost everyone I've known who left for an OP eventaully decided they made a big mistake.<p>snl...Indeed the statistics seem to say so, and I think it makes sense.<p>fairy...I can honestly say I have never regretted a decison to leave a relationship. I always left on my own. But every single guy who has ever broken up with me has tried to come back at some time. <p>snl..Isn't it interesting that your "bs" (so to speak) tried to hang on despite your obvious decision to end things. Sorta what happens here also. I will keep saying human relationships are human relationships, marriage is an artificial construct and has nothing to do with our genes, and what drives us, all relationships are subject to the same human psychology.<p>
<<< people in-love have no need of MB (or at least only benefit minimally from some of the behavioral suggestions) cause they will never have affairs or divorce anyways, but such love is not common.>>><p>zor...People in-love are the very ones who do need MB. Why? Because they need to know how to nurture that love and keep it from dying from neglect. Most marriages that die do so not from a lack of love but from a lack of that love being nurtured. Love, like a garden, only grows as long as it is cultivated.<p>snl..I don't beleive this zorweb. I don't think people can be taught to nurture. They can be shown ways to act to get what they want (or keep a spouse), but it will not be nurturing it will be quid pro quo. I think people don't nurture for two reasons, 1. they can't, they are "defective" that way, or 2. It is part of being in-love, you cannot nurture unless you fit. Interestingly I just read today some more stuff about genetic research, it appears their is a nurturing gene, women who have it make good mothers, those who don't make bad mothers (neglectful, etc.) interesting huh? And yes they have done experiments to establish these sorts of things, is not idle conjecture. Even more interesting is the nurturing gene is paternally determined. The fathers of daughters determine their genetic ability to be good mothers.<p>zorweb...There are only a very small number of people who know who to nurture love instinctively. Those are the few who are able to stay in-love for a very long time. If you spoke to any of them you will find that even those people have their ups and downs. There are days when patience, commitment and humor are what pull them through. I&#8217;ve read several interviews and/or books about such marriages. They all say the same thing. <p>snl..I am not saying people don't fuss at each other, or have spats, that has nothing to do with dropping nuclear bombs on them (abandonment, neglect, affairs, etc.), won't happen if in-love, and once truly matched and in-love it never ends. But I agree is not common. IMO few marriages are in-love, they are all accomodations of one sort or another.<p>zorweb....The interesting thing is that you refute what Dr. Harley says about marriage and a behavioral approach to it. But he and his wife seem to have one of those magical marriages. <p>snl..I have no idea what their marriage is like. Do you? They may be the consummate settlers, they may be in-love, who knows.<p>zorweb...He has helped thousands of people return their marriage to passionate love. <p>snl...Says who? They keep no records, do no follow ups. I asked steve about this. I wanted some idea of how successful they really are. He told me they do not do follow-ups, and keep no statisitical records like real scientists. That means everything they say is anecdotal, and skewed toward being self fullfilling. They help all who can be helped, cause only those who can be helped come for help.....what about the rest? What sorts of people do they help? Do they help people divorce too? What about people who buy into it and hang on for years with little improvement, thinking all they have to do is try? Are they psychologists, or just skillful personal trainers? I doubt very seriously they have helped people find passionate love very often, what I think they do is help people settle. But I do think those who apply their principles in mate selection, will have greater success in finding true love.<p>zorweb...Yet you still say his methods do not work. <p>snl...I do not say they don't work. They work well in helping people settle for what they have, and recover from ill-advised affairs. What I say is no one can decide themselves into in-love, and in-love has absolutely nothing to do with behaviour modification, but is in the realm of psychological fitting. Further I think it hard enough to do right, that few are successful so we have this skewed notion that marriage is work, and is about mature love.<p>zorweb...You CHOOSE to not see it when they do work. That is your choice. MB works for those couples in which both spouses choose to embrace the concepts and live by them.<p>snl...I am not trying to see or not see anything, I am just observing and interpreting as best I can. I agree MB will work for those who want it too, who are willing to settle for what they have. Interstingly many here acknowledge they could fit someone better, but choose not too, if that is not settling, what is it? I have no objection to settling zorweb, to quid pro quo, one can craft a secure comfortable, tolerable life, but you pay a price, there is always a price. Life is a series of choices, there is no particular path, depends on your objectives. And if your objective is to be secure with someone, and cohabitate with safe sex, you will make certain choices, and attitude adjustments. If your objective is to go deep with someone, you will choose passion, not really all that complicated.<p>zorweb...Yes, I do know people who are &#8220;in-love&#8221; all the time and they are not fairy tail characters. They are people who genuinely love their spouses. Again it is the definition of &#8216;in-love&#8217; that matters here. If &#8216;in-love&#8217; is defined as having that butterfly feeling about your lover ALL the time then it will be harder to find people who are in-love 24/7 for an entire live time. <p>snl..I do not define it that way at all, and have defined it a number of times allready. What folks typically do is try to make what you said the definition, in order to minimize the reality of a bond we can describe as in-love.<p>zorweb...I can tell you that I love STL 24/7. The only time this feeling has been challenged was in the first 2 weeks after d-day. During that time I was mostly working on balancing my understanding of who he is with the new knowledge I had of him. If I had not loved him 24/7 I would have just walked away.<p>snl...I wouldn't presume to tell you your feelings, but if someone were describing your circumstances to me, I would speculate you simply did not want to start over for a fourth time, and were willing to settle if you could get some gaurantees. People are not usually all good or all bad, so it is natural to want to stay with someone even if they have serious flaws, if they have good points. That is not at all what I am talking about. I am talking about human psychology and how that impacts intimacy.<p>zorweb....And you know what? The vast majority of WS&#8217;s will tell you that they love their spouses too. <p>snl...As do I, as does the ow. I caringly love my wife. The issue is whether we are in-love, we clearly are not, and what to do about it.<p>zorweb...That is why the vast majority of WS&#8217;s try to hide their affairs. They love their spouse and do not want to hurt them. <p>snl..You are kidding right? They hide them for the same self-serving reasons all of us do everything we do in life. We do not want to be interfered with. Has little to do with the bs, for the most part the bs doesn't even exist anymore for that time.<p>zorweb...The affairs are an individual attempt to deal with some inner problems with the WS.. Like not having certain needs met or psychological problems of their own. <p>snl..Could be. But can also be because they are single living married (a well-known psychological reality), and simply fall in love just like people always do. You forget people also marry because of inner problems, not having certain needs met, and psychological issues too, should they leave the marriage when they realize it?<p>zorweb...SnL, you need to realize that most of the cases we see here on MB are the hardcore ones. The ones where the WS is being very abusive and in many cases they do not have feelings of &#8220;in-love&#8221; for the BS. But this is not the norm. That is why MB works for most couples.<p>snl...I would very much like to see more statistical data and in-depth case histories. I would also like to see objective criteria for how bonded people are. There are an awful lot of "successful" marriage where the H/W have very little actual interaction, what is that? <p>zorweb...You will see what you want in life. We all create our own reality. Your assumptions that love is all about psychological fit assumes that we have no free will and no control over our lives. <p>snl.....If you mean we can change who we are, you are right I disagree, we cannot change our genetic programming.... but more importantly, why should we?<p>zorweb...I&#8217;ve been in love enough times and in enough relationships to know that psychological fit is only one of the components. It is perhaps one of the components hat gets us together. It is not the ONLY ONE that keeps us together. Perhaps that is an advantage I have for having been in many relationships. I know from experience how fragile &#8216;in-love&#8217;, how fleeting that feeling of &#8216;in-love&#8217; and &#8216;soul mate&#8217; can be. People stay in love over the long haul only when they nurture their relationship. MB is about the nurturing.<p>snl...And maybe you have never been in-love, how would you know. Your track record indicates a lack of skill in recognizing love, when in fact you were selecting toxic relationships. No wonder you are so bent on making it a structural issue, a behavioural issue, emotions have served you poorly. Remember, I think it is both. Re stl, I am not sure of all the details, but it seems I recall he used women, he did not love them, this indeed could be a coping mechanism he could recover from, and all other things being good, could fit you I suppose. But that has nothing to do with MB, has to do with stl healing himself, and when healed still wanting to be married to you (and you him).<p>zorweb...SnL, you may never find that permanent &#8216;in-love&#8217;, 24/7 feeling because your definition of it is impossible. <p>snl..Not impossible, just difficult.<p>zorweb...Choose your mentors more wisely. Choose those who have working relationships instead of those who seek the unattainable. <p>snl...One should choose the mentors practicing what they value. If one values settling, then one should pick settlers, if one values passion, then one picks something else. All this still begs the question though zorweb, if I were to agree in-love is a fantasy, and marriage is just about work...why stay married to thinker, why not divorce take applications, and then work with the best choice...thinker can apply too. Why do we default to who we are married to, makes no sense at all if love is simply a choice, if it is a choice then what criteria should I apply? If it is not a choice, then it is a prison, and MB is about just making the best of it. That kinda stinks too as a reason to be married...ya know? And what about thinker, why be married to a loser like me, just take me for all she can, and trade me in for a much better model.<p>zorweb...SnL, you will never find true love on your current path. You will never be happy in your marriage. I do fear that you will need to follow your &#8216;soul mate&#8217; to learn that she too is not our soul mate. <p>snl..This comes up from time to time, but this is not about ow, she is gone, this is only about thinker and I, and our emotional divorce occured long before ow appeared. The issue now is whether we should remarry, and that is how I view this. If we were single, would I date her, and marry her, if not, I am doing her a disservice to stay...right?<p>zorweb...You are free to make that choice. I highly implore you to not sit there in your relationship with thinker and torment her and yourself with these ruminations. <p>snl...This is the rest of my life, I hardly think doing due diligence, and the hard introspective work I do is tormenting....should I just ignore my feelings and conceal them, and just put on the happy face....that is not who I am, should I be different? This is who she married, this is how I have always conducted my life, if I did not do this, I would not be Joseph...who would I be zorweb?<p>zorweb...But I am sure that you will continue down this road as you are comfortable with thinker and this ruminating and &#8216;intellectual&#8217; bantering you love to do about &#8216;illusive love.&#8217; I don&#8217;t know how thinker puts up with this. Guess the poor woman just loves you.<p>snl...Puts up with? Now there is a disrespectful judgement if I ever heard one. In any event she doesn't put up with it, she does not like it, makes that clear to me that I am not worthy.<p>zorweb...If you spent the time you spend on-line ruminating(here at MB and on other boards) working on your marriage and having fun with thinker.. you'd fall back in romantic love with her.<p>snl...I tried to do this (be in-love) for 20 years, had no discernible effect on her, now all of a sudden everything was just a big mistake, she is terribly sorry, and we really are made for each other....I have no reason to believe that, and her actions suggest we have a lot of issues, maybe irreconcilable issues, I cannot just ignore this. Nor do I want her changing just cause I left, and she wants me back. I do not make her happy, I make her unhappy, she has never been happy with me, why might it not be best we just face that, go through the pain of divorce, and stop making each other miserable? I suspect we would be a lot better exspouses than we are spouses, the tension of marital intimacy for us is not healthy.<p>SNL: MB has nothing to do with building marriages, it is instead an attempt to reprogram your internal paradigms, so you will accept the relationship you are in. It does not, cannot, make you be in-love with someone you do not fit...<p>omy...I understand that this is your opinion, SnL. However, you often speak of being on a "mission of sorts" to understand yourself/your marriage. With this is mind, I often wonder how (or why) you are so adamant about the fact that Harley's "program" does not/cannot help you be in-love with someone???<p>snl...I am only adamant in the discussions I enter re these important issues. MB as a tool is very useful for relationship behaviour. I needed to understand whether they had the answer to being in-love, and so entered many discussions. I am comfortable now with what MB is and what it is not.<p>omy...Furthermore, I DO understand the point that you make against Harley: if meeting needs worked in all instances, we could love ANYONE that met our needs at any given time, which isn't possible. (or, using your exact words: If there is no mystery to in-love, no passion, no special fit than what's the point? I can hire someone to meet all my needs far as that goes, would I then love em? ...why don't we fall in love with someone who admires us, gives us financial security, gives us stimulating conversation, etc. etc. according to harley principles we should love whoever does that.)<p>I agree that we WILL NOT automatically fall in-love with whoever chooses to meet our needs. However, I think it is important to point out that in rebuilding marriages we are NOT talking about ANY PERSON. In most instances, we are talking about two individuals that at one point in time were in-love with each other, enough to marry.<p>snl...Doesn't work that way marie, a principle must work all the time to be a principle, that is why I argue that point, to make it clear MB has nothing to do with being in-love, at best it reduces tension, so you can see more clearly. But seeing clearly has never been a problem for me. People do not have to be in-love to be married (I wasn't), and in fact I think rarely are. Mostly people are in-love with the fantasy of being in-love, and regularly marry people they never should have married, surely you agree this happens quite often? And we are talking any person, there is nothing particularly special about the people we marry, if we never met them, we would most likely have married someone else right? So what does that mean? <p>omy...I guess I just don't understand how you can say that you ARE OPEN to exploring new ideas, new concepts, new philosophies, etc., but then seem to so easily pooh-pooh the Harley's formula.<p>snl...I am open, or I would not be trying to do this stuff, but as time goes on, it is clear it cannot make you magically be in-love, and one must deal with what is the reality.<p>omy...The mind is a VERY POWERFUL thing. If you honestly believe it, then it is probably so.
snl...I would say..duh?????????? (if you can't believe yourself, what do you do?) But I think you mean we can self-program in oppositiion to reality, more commonly referred to as denial.<p>omy...No, I don't think you understand what I mean...or, maybe perhaps you do, and I just don't understand your explanation of it...LOL. Anyway, what I meant was more like the "little engine that could,"...I think I can, I think I can, I think I can (type-thinking) -vs- IT CAN'T BE DONE (type-thinking). I'm not talking about the impossible (ie: believing you can fly simply by flapping your arms and then jumping off a cliff).<p>snl...That is the point. When to recognize something is impossible. When to recognize you can only bond to a certain point with someone, and is that enough? And if not, stop, and realign your life differently...if we can't do this, then marriage is a trap, a life sentence, I don't think people should feel they have to settle, I never want anyone to settle for me, the moment they no longer are passionate about me, I prefer they leave. I do not want to be settled for, or tolerated, or cared about, or comfortable with...<p>omy...Moreover, I have seen some amazing things in regards to cancer survivorship based on positive thinking/self-talk.<p>snl...I agree, but that has do with self-healing, and in fact what I am doing here is healing me, I have been sick a long time, in a toxic intimacy.<p>omy...Hence, I maintain that most people who passionately believe that something is attainable will succeed.<p>snl...I sure hope so.<p>snl...The vast majority of bs here who feel they "love" their spouse and just got to make it work are indeed making a choice, a cold calculated choice that what they have is the best they can do, and until their spouse falls below a given level of reward, that is what they are going to do, and not take the risk of starting over.<p>omy...Of course, I'm going to disagree with this quote. Speaking for all my friends in RECOVERY, I do not think your opinion of the "vast majority of BS here" is accurate. As for myself, my choice to repair my marriage was not a cold, calculated choice. It was a very long, mature, loving, and well thoughtout decision. <p>snl...What was your decision based on then, if not an assessment of the facts. Ya see marie, I think it is the norm not to want to give up what you have, I also think bs often are loathe to start over...but what if H died, or left you, you might very well marry someone you fit better, and be even more in-love....I also think it is normal for people not to want to think ill of a spouse, or that they have wasted their life up till then, so they do their darnest to make something work. That is ok, as long as they understand that (which folks rarely do, mostly they just react). In short humans are very conservative, and not risk takers, their is a reason why we say a bird in the hand is worth 2 in the bush. I say again, I see marriage after marriage after marriage that are "working", but they people are not particularly happen, nor are they growing and blossoming, instead most of their energy is spent trying to make it work...why? What difference does it make if you are not married to someone? Why does marie want to be married? Is it cause it makes her feel secure, and content, her life is in order, is predictable, gets along with her H well enough, and just lives her life till she dies? Or is it something else, if so, what?<p>omy...Furthermore, I'm not certain that my H is the best I can do; nor am I vain enough to think that my H couldn't do better. But make no mistake, I don't think either of us have SETTLED. Rather, I see us as both willing to forgive each other for our faults, while recognizing that we are able to restore our passionate in-love feelings for each other. WE ARE BELIEVERS...stupid perhaps, but currently happily working towards the same goal.<p>snl...I do not think anyone is "stupid", but I do think we kid ourselves alot, and deny alot. If you really don't think you are the best match for each other, then by definition you have settled (for all the myriad reasons people do). You are people of goodwill (hopefully) who have said let's do this together, and be a team, that is fine, wonderful, and no doubt care about each other alot, but there is more, there is "seeing" someone, "hearing" their song, and you can only do that if you fit them. Maybe you do, not for me to say, so plz don't be offended.

jr...Another example. Sometime during the past 3 months, WW talked to a friend of hers who made her wonder "do I really love OM, or just how he treats me?" - made her stop and actually say "you know, that might make a big difference" - <p>snl...It makes a huge difference, and what due diligence is about. But it applies in both directions. Being married is often no different, we just are less likely to question it, and put up with non-nurturing marriages. <p>JR 2 - sure, if I was to choose any point in time where I get to reassess whether I want to be married to this woman, it's certainly now - so far, I see some reasons not to be, but I also see many reasons to be. So I keep going in my own life. If she follows, great. If I get to a point where my love is lost, I guess she'll have to find someone else.<p>jr...obviously she didn't think this one through carefully enough, because we've gone further down hill since then. <p>snl...Maybe cause the same analysis applies to the marriage. The thing is people try to act as if an A is any different than a marriage, as if a piece of paper means anything (psychologically). It doesn't of course, it can't. The reality is we are all programmed to mate, and to make the best deal we can, makes no difference if we are married or not. So if we marry poorly (don't fit well, or one spouse has various personality disorders) there is little holding the marriage together, and "dating" happens.<p>JR 2 - mind you, if she thought it through more, she might get to the point that she herself admits would be most "rational" - working on the M, for many, many reasons, even in her own mind. She is, however, seduced by biology right now - mate with the person who provides the most attention, because they'll most likely provide the same attention to their offspring, maybe??<p>jr...But the point is this... My balance in her love bank has suffered, but it might be different from what she even thinks it is, because she's not allowing herself to truly look at what it is, to look at its potential, etc.<p>snl....This is about internal paradigms jr, she may not want to change who she is to "see" your potential, cause she does not percieve that potential is worthwhile. That does not make her wrong, she has to live in her skin. If we are married and reach crisis, all anyone can do is hope as each party reasseses who they are, they end up wanting you, if they don't it is best not to force it, but to amicably divorce.<p>JR 2 - well, she does recognize the potential. She knows the reasons to stay - I can provide a good home, a loving environment, have a happy life with extended family, etc. - her reasons to go are based on what she herself admits is a fantasy. So it might not be whether what I have is worthwhile, but whether the risk in leaving will outweigh the benefits in staying - personally, I think the choice is obvious, but she does need to decide that on her own, and needs to shift her world-view to do it. Certainly she has a right to not want me, but obviously she does on some level, that's why she's on the fence.<p>jr...When I asked her once "why she's still here", I got "maybe it's like getting into cold water and I have to do it slowly, or maybe deep down I don't really want to." (Hmm - there's a line I hope she shares with OM!!) So telling is this that I have to suspect that she's being dishonest with herself, and that her Love Banks (for both OM and I) are really both fairly full - which is leading to our problems and her deadlock.<p>snl...All this imagery can just drive you crazy. That is why I do like the plan a done right, it is about you, and being desireable to boot, you go to plan b, then you divorce, anywhere along the way the ws can choose you, and act accordingly. If not you get your life back. She must choose, trying to figure her out, or act like you think she wants does not have a good outcome.<p>JR 2 - it's not so much trying to figure her out, but realizing that the situation isn't necessarily due to drastically different love bank balances - but due to a shift in world-view that happened quite suddenly (yes, she claims it has been a long time in the making, but there are clear reasons to question this that's worthy of a different thread). In fact, the way I act now in Plan A isn't drastically different than before d-day - it doesn't need to be in many ways, because she WAS happy, appreciated me, etc. - and I see positive Plan A results for the most part from her.

THIS STUFF GIVES ME A HEADACHE!!!<p>SnL...you are gonna believe what you want to believe...'cause you don't want to believe anything else...<p>I am no longer going to argue with you....try to educate you...or even give you advice....<p>I am going to pray for you...much like I pray for my H. I sincerely hope that you allow God to work in your life...<p>Maybe read Deutronomy...Moses sermonizes about following God's laws and commandments...we often know what God demands for us...but as humans with free will we don't always follow it...we struggle for control...we feel we 'deserve' to be happy and pursue sin despite his commandments...<p>And, yeah...you can refute me here too...as many 'cultural' Christians do...they hear...but they don't listen...or do...or obey...we live in a 'McDonald's' culture...we want everything 'our' way, including our religion...<p>God's way isn't always our way. <p>I am not a very open person about this SnL...I am new to my 'personal' relationship with Him...but something tonight is pushing me to write this to you...<p>I will pray that you hear what God wants you to hear...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
[QB]<<<fairy...I know some! Let's see, Rapunzel and the Handsome Prince, Cinderella and the Handsome Prince, Snow White and... Oh wait, they aren't real people. >>>><p><<<<<snl...How do you know they weren't? Could be they were representative of stuff we know in our subconcious?>>><p>They were fairy tales. Idealized representations of a life which does not exist. A life of happily ever afters where no one ever has problems. Like airbrushed models in magazines who don't have pores in their skin and never have a blemish. If you see those models in real life they are still beautiful, but not perfect like in the pictures. Just like love.<p><<< And maybe you are right, maybe there really is no such thing as love, and it really all is quid pro quo.>>><p>Huh? Where did I say there was no such thing as love? I'm just saying that there isn't perfect idealized love which is what you seem to be seeking. Love to me runs much deeper than that. Love is flawed, people are flawed, people make mistakes. Love is about forgiving those mistakes (unfortunately unlike the romantic movies, love isn't "Never having to say you're sorry") and realizing that life isn't a fairy tale.<p>
<<<snl...Good enough? I don't think so fairy, no offense but if you want to believe this was a simple error and has nothing to do with who he is, then that is your choice.>>><p>You misunderstood me. I was talking about the OW being "good enough". She was just a person in the right place at the right time. There was no magical, deep fairy tale bond. She was a much younger woman who was very demonstrative in her interest in him. He was a depressed man in the midst of a mid life crisis. He wanted to be 22 again and beign with her made him feel that way, temporarily. When my best friend had her A the OM might as well have been a cardboard cut out. She gave him all kinds of qualities he didn't have. He could have been any man in the right place at the right time. Later, when it was over and she was seeing things clearly she thought he was vile and the thought of even speaking to him made her skin crawl.<p><<<But IMO humans don't function that way, and A is a significant event,>>>><p> Of course it is a significant event! It was a life changing, devastating event. But we survived, and are stronger for it and closer than ever. It showed us that we never wanted to be apart again.<p><<<it does mean something, and that something is he does not love you, he is settleing for you IMO.>>><p> I don't understand this line of thinking. So every former WS in the world who is happily back together with their BS does not love them? Sorry, I know that's not true. I know many, many people who have cheated, are truly sorry they did, are happy and in love and are thankful to God every day that they were given a second chance. But according to your reasoning they are all liars (or at least lying to themselves). The next time my H holds me in his arms and tells me how much he loves me and never wants to be apart from me again I guess I'll just yell "Get our Liar! I want a divorce" Then we can both be miserable since we very much want to be together, but according to your logic it is the only option. The next time my former WS best friend is gushing to me about her wonderful H and how much she loves him I guess I should advise her that she is lying to herself and "settling" since she really isn't in love with her H. They should alos probably throw away their fictional happiness because despite the fact that they are botyh loving life, they arent' really in love according to you. They should see a divorce atorney ASAP.<p><<< An A is no different. The momement someone turns away from a marriage they are no longer married (or more likely never were in the first place).>>><p>So then divorce should be mandatory in the cases of affairs? <p><<<The resultant crisis can lead to a reassessment of what one has to lose, and the known vs the unknown, and choose to settle, far as I can see happens all the time.>>><p>Or people can realize that they made a monumental, life changing, devastating mistake for a wide variety of reasons. People do things that screw up their lives, and that they regret, all the time. Some people really are sorry. It's not always about "settling" sometimes it's about realizing that your dream was right in front of you all along and you almost lost it.<p><<<I don't believe affairs are some sort of inexplicable accident, that is too convienient a way to embrace denial.>>><p>Accident? Heck no! Hearing "It just happened" makes my blood boil. My H knew what he was doing and he allowed it to happen, just like any WS does. The reasons why he allowed it to happen are all issues we have dealt with in depth since then, not the least of which was diagnosed clinical depression. Our communication level is also great now. Unfortunately it took an A to bring everything to the surface to be dealt with and fixed, but the important thing is that we did. Out of all the people I know ironically we now have one of the best marriages. I think it's because everything was stripped down to the bone and laid out for us to deal with. We both learned how to really nurture each other, and our marriage. People can be very much in love and not realizing that every day life is gettigng in the way. It's easy to take each other for granted in a long relationship if you don't pay close attention.<p>Marriage isn't for everyone. I think that for you, it probably isn't. But looking for that everlasting, fairy tale, crest of the wave passion and romance that is never anything but perfect love will probably lead to a very lonely life. It's the life of a serial monogamist. Relationships last 2-3 years. There is that deep, passionate connection (which is easy to think you have in almost any new relationship with someone you are attracted to). Those brain chemicals are a strong thing, scientifically it's known as limerance. The chemicals of limerance begin to wear off and at around the 2 year mark the realtionship goes into "attachment" phase. This is when the serial monogamist often thinks that something is "wrong" with the relationship and starts to become dissatisfied. Soon he feels a "connection" with the new office girl. That passion is back again, she must be "the one". They strike up a relationship and oh the sparks fly, they are truly soulmates. But then that 2 years passes and something seems to be "wrong" again. is he settling? Is that everlasting passion out there? Who is that new girl in accounting? My sisters exH is a serial monogamist (among other things). He is currently ending his third 2 year marriage. When my sister met him he was Mr. Romance. Textbook dream man with the flowers and special gifts and thoughtful cards and long letters about how she was the one true light in his life and he'd never felt so much love blah blah. She was fairly young and let him talk her into a short engagement. After all, he "couldn't wait one more day longer than he had to to start the rest of his life with her." He really did feel it too, he absolutely BEAMED when they were together. He took an active role in wedding plans because he wanted it to be perfect "just like their love" he said. He told her how he and his first wife had never had the "fire" that he and my sister shared. Thinks went along swimmingly until about 2 years. He told her he felt that the "fire" had gone out and he needed to be in a relationship with "passion that lasts". He started to wonder if "they were ever really in love at all". Turns out a girl in a class he was taking was beginning to ignite that "fire" in his pants. He decided that SHE was his real soulmate. Those chemicals were flowing again and that's what he needs to be happy. Along with serial monogamy seems to run a tendency towards revisionist history. When my sister found emails to the OW it was the same romantic stuff he'd told my sister, and this time it was "I never had the "fire" with my WIVES that I have with you." I think he will repeat this pattern until the day he dies.<p>Serial monogamists are addicted to the chemicals of limerance. Those endorphins do feel wonderful. But the human body isn't programmed to keep producing them in an established relationship. Real love is what is left, or not, when the endorphins die down and you are no longer riding a chemical high that minimizes each other flaws and human shortcomings. To me, that "attached" love is the best kind. That is when you become truly bonded. when you realize that life isn't perfect, and neither of you are perfect, but you still love each other. You may go through bad times, sometime s REALLY bad times, one or both of you may screw up big time, but when you come out the other side, still together, it's better than ever. I realize this is probably impossible to explain to someone who believes that the only true love is forever perfect, flawless love where no one ever has to say I'm sorry. I wish you luck in your quest SNL. If you see my sister's ex husband on the path tell him I said hi.<p>I should clarify SNL that I'm not saying that you are a serial monogamist, just that those who quest for flawless love tend to end up being just that. We will never see eye to eye because I think we are opposite sides of the same romantic coin. I believe in forever love that conquers all and weathers the storms. You believe that forever love has no storms or complications. But IMO sailing on a boat that is only built for smooth seas and warm sunny days is a recipe for disaster. It's easy to have perfect love when the world around you is perfect and you are both perfect people. I don't live in a world like that, and don't know any perfect people either.<p>[ December 10, 2001: Message edited by: fairydust ]</p>