fairy...Serial monogamists are addicted to the chemicals of limerance. Those endorphins do feel wonderful. But the human body isn't programmed to keep producing them in an established relationship. Real love is what is left, or not, when the endorphins die down and you are no longer riding a chemical high that minimizes each other flaws and human shortcomings. To me, that "attached" love is the best kind. <p>
snl..Ok, fair enuf, then what is real love, and why do you have it with your H and not with someone else. forget history, kids, etc, those are pragmatic concerns...or is that all love is, time in grade with whoever, and then a reluctance to start over, and an agreement to communicate and meet needs? Why do you love man A but not man B if you lived the same amount of time with each, communication is there, and and committment to meet needs you want met is present? Is there no difference? It makes no difference who you are married to, just that you are married? What if you had ended the marriage how do you know you would not be even happier now with someone else, and why is that not important? Ya see fairy, these are real questions, with real answers and real consequences. You selected one path, it may not be the best one at all, you cannot know it is, so there had to be a reason, a benefit, and in part it has to be you were reluctant to start over, to quit, to fail....correct? And in so reacting thusly, you crafted a solution, and have a vested interest in percieveing that solution positively....we all do this of course, and it interests me greatly how and why we go about it. Yes I do think all affairs should generate a compulsory divorce. That would clear out some of the emotional bonds so people can freely reassess their life, cause they have too, and cannot remarry (or marry anyone) for maybe a year or so. I think people cannot fully think straight until they have seperated for some period of time. If one seperates for a year or two, and then still feels they would like to revisit the marriage, that makes a lot more sense to me, otherwise people are influenced to stay with what they have essentially out of fear of the alternative. This will never happen of course, and people desperately try to keep themselves in the presence of their spouse, and keep them focused on them. I wonder about that, if they love you you can never lose them anyways...BUT if you are settleing, accomodating, then seperation is a huge risk, you may lose them to a better deal. It is nothing more than manipulation, for many that is ok, it works, and sometimes I envy them.....one of the truths about me is I have a terrible aversion to manipulation of any kind. Maybe I am defective in some way. Ideally my w would make it clear it is perfectly ok if our marriage ends, she will be fine, we will be friends, and cooperate cheerfully, whatever I want to do is ok...but that is not how it is, it is how I treat her, I would never try in any way to keep her. I really hate the notion of love being a duty, just something you decide to do, or do out of fear of the alternative. I know my w does not love me, she can't, she doesn't even know who I am, and you can't love someone without knowing deeply who they are. She loves me cause I am her H and she values the "picture", and she is afraid to start over. She may say otherwise, makes no difference, I know the truth.<p>No time now, but may comment later on a few things, thanks for taking the time to work on this with me, it is helpful.<p>That is when you become truly bonded. when you realize that life isn't perfect, and neither of you are perfect, but you still love each other. You may go through bad times, sometime s REALLY bad times, one or both of you may screw up big time, but when you come out the other side, still together, it's better than ever. I realize this is probably impossible to explain to someone who believes that the only true love is forever perfect, flawless love where no one ever has to say I'm sorry. I wish you luck in your quest SNL. If you see my sister's ex husband on the path tell him I said hi.

hmmm fairy your edit suggests you believe in love, and focusing that effort on whoever, while I believe love is about who people are, and how they fit. I usually don't react to the playing of the "perfect" card, is useless in any real conversation, there is no such thing as perfect, is a meaningless term. We are discussing the nature of human bonding, how it happens, why it should happen, whether the bonds are different in any important way depending on who you "love". You really haven't addressed any of that, so I don't know that we are on different sides or not. For you maybe love is in the doing, and if your H feels the same, no reason not to work. But humans have a variety of internal paradigms and one size does not fit all. That is part of the problem, when two people of different temperaments re these fundamental life issues are married, what do you do? What will you do if your H wanders again?

Snl,
I don't disagree with everything you have said. I think you make some valid points. But, you begin to lose some credibility when speak in such absolutes and say "he is wrong" (by the way, Dr. Harriet Lerner is a she) and "the Harley's are wrong". The fact that you dismissed what the poster quoted from Dr. Lerner without even knowing THE FIRST THING about her does not lend credibility to your statements that you have studied these issues in depth. <p>A student does not simply formulate their own hypothesis and then present it as fact to the world. They read and study and prove or disprove all kinds of theories as a LEARNING PROCESS. <p>I do agree with you that Harley has a systematic approach to help people who want to save their marriage (for whatever reason). It will not usually work if both don't try. Sometimes the marriage will not end in divorce, but this is still settling by both parties. People "settle" for all kinds of reasons - children, fear, financial, society, religious... You have made it perfectly clear you are not interested in settling, so I don't know why you feel such a need to continue to try and tell others that is what they are doing. Most people who "settle" know at some level that is what they are doing.<p>Second,
I can't belive a person of your obvious intelligence actually believes that mature love does not exist. If "it" were really just about
"fit" than every single one of us would be blissfully married to our high school sweethearts and there would be no such thing as divorce! I mean there is no better example of what you describe than teenage love. My first boyfriend could do no wrong. He was a GOD and I was his Goddess. We were so "in-love" it was unbelievable and in our 16 year old minds and hearts IT WAS REAL AND WAS GOING TO LAST FOREVER. But, it didn't. The reason it didn't is the same reason 95% of high school romances don't -we were children playing at a grown-up game.
Now, I am not sure that I understand exactly what Cali meant by "mature love", but I think it means me, the individual, is mature enough to understand and participate in a relationship. I don't think it means just that we become responsible and "do the right thing" even when we don't feel like it. But, it means that we know every relationship is not without challenge and to think there is some holy grail of relationships that if we could just find the perfect one all problems would be solved and we would be completely in-love, loved and happy because we found our FIT - that is folly.<p>Finally,
Again, your level of competence doesn't "fit" with your statement that "Happiness doesn't come from within". HUH? Where the hell do you think it comes from? Surely, you don't subscribe to the ridiculous notion that other people or things can make you happy? That is where the guy who drinks himself to death is - trying to find it in the bottle. Or the woman spending every dime on stuff -trying to find it at Neiman's. Or the person screwing everybody they can -trying to find it in sex. Or, even, the WS who is having an affair and is "in-love" with the OP - they are trying to find some validation for themselves and trying to feel loved. If you can't find a peace within yourself you will never find it out there.<p>As I said, I think you have some very valid theories and have obviously done a good amount thinking about these enormous issues. But, you aren't as open-minded as you like you think and as you portray yourself to be. You really say some things that make you sound like the narrow-minded cultists that you criticize.

<<<<snl..Ok, fair enuf, then what is real love, and why do you have it with your H and not with someone else. forget history, kids, etc, those are pragmatic concerns...or is that all love is, time in grade with whoever, and then a reluctance to start over, and an agreement to communicate and meet needs?>>><p>I think that is a question that can't be answered. I don't know why I love him, I just do. I can say I love him because he is this and that and we are this and that together, but it goes much deeper than that. The deeper part is what can't be explained in words. I do think some people are meant to be together and put together by a higher power, but that doesn't guarantee perfect, effortless love and no complications. It's too lengthy to try to explain, but when we got together the circumstances and the timing were so perfect for both of us and the connection was instant. Like nothing either of us had felt before. But that was only a beginning. It's a great thing to have a beginning like that because it's a solid first building block. But that's all it is, a first block. There is still a long way to go towards building a lasting and happy relationship from a good start. I can't even imagine trying to build a good relationship on a train wreck start like being affair partners. I guess WS and OP who end up doing that don't mind burying all the bodies in the concrete in the basement and living with the ghosts. <p><<<Why do you love man A but not man B if you lived the same amount of time with each, communication is there, and and committment to meet needs you want met is present? Is there no difference? It makes no difference who you are married to, just that you are married?>>><p>Another question with no real answers. Personally I do think that love is a more than just needs being met. I do believe in connections, but I also believe that life never runs smoothly, and that people make mistakes they regret.<p><<< What if you had ended the marriage how do you know you would not be even happier now with someone else, and why is that not important?>>><p>Living one's life that way sounds like a nightmare. How can someone who lives that way ever be truly happy? It sounds like a life filled with nothing but what ifs and discontent. People who are always lookin gfor the next best thing never seem to find it. Things turned out very well and I am very happy. I actually never, ever think "Would I have been happier with someone else?" It honestly never crosses my mind. Maybe that's an individual personality thing. Some people think that way, some don't. I think that if one has that mindset nothing will ever be good enough because there might be something even better out there. <p><<< You selected one path, it may not be the best one at all, you cannot know it is, so there had to be a reason, a benefit, and in part it has to be you were reluctant to start over, to quit, to fail....correct?>>><p> But isn't everything in life that way? I stayed with my husband because I love him, period. If I didn't, nothing would have kept me there. There were times when we were separated that I prayed to God to take away the feelings of love I had for my H so I could move on. But that didn't happen, and I'm glad. Of course I really didn't want to start over, but I would have if I didn't love him. No question about it. I lived with someone else for 5 years and starting over was a minor inconvenience compared to living in a bad, doomed relationship that neither of us wanted anymore. <p><<<Yes I do think all affairs should generate a compulsory divorce. That would clear out some of the emotional bonds so people can freely reassess their life, cause they have too, and cannot remarry (or marry anyone) for maybe a year or so.>>><p>How would divorce clear out emotional bonds? If we had gotten divorced I wouldn't suddenly have stopped loving my husband when the papers were signed. <p><<I think people cannot fully think straight until they have seperated for some period of time.>>><p>I think that sometimes separation can sometimes be a good thing. But it doesn't always take people a year or 2 to realize they screwed up.<p><<<This will never happen of course, and people desperately try to keep themselves in the presence of their spouse, and keep them focused on them. I wonder about that, if they love you you can never lose them anyways...BUT if you are settleing, accomodating, then seperation is a huge risk, you may lose them to a better deal.>>><p> Maybe you are right. As much as I didn't want my H to move out it ended up being the best thing. It took a lot of stress off of me to have him out of the house. It also worked to my benefit that he got to quickly realize that once he had to see the OW every day she wasn't a better deal at all. More like a shiny used sports car from "Bob's House O Cars" (warrantly not included) that starts breaking down as soon as you get it home. Looked good on the lot and was fun for a test drive... While we were apart we started dating each other again, reliving the things that brought us together in the first place, things that had gotten pushed aside by the rigors of everyday life. Once we were apart, he realized how much he missed me.<p> <<< I know my w does not love me, she can't, she doesn't even know who I am, and you can't love someone without knowing deeply who they are. She loves me cause I am her H and she values the "picture", and she is afraid to start over. She may say otherwise, makes no difference, I know the truth.>>><p>Now this sounds like nothig more than a major WS justification. The TRUTH is that you can't get inside her head anymore than she can get in yours. You can't decide that type of truth for her.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
[QB]hmmm fairy your edit suggests you believe in love, and focusing that effort on whoever, while I believe love is about who people are, and how they fit.>>><p>I believe it is both. I think that people who fit together AND work at the marriage on a daily basis will succeed. when I say work I don't mean intense counseling sessions. I'm talkign about little things, like remembering to thank my H for taking out the trash. Things that are easy to forget to do in real life.<p><<<I usually don't react to the playing of the "perfect" card, is useless in any real conversation, there is no such thing as perfect, is a meaningless term.>>><p>But the relationship you seem to desire is one that would be flawless and unrealistic. There seems to be no room for mistakes in the love you decribe as true.<p><<< We are discussing the nature of human bonding, how it happens, why it should happen, whether the bonds are different in any important way depending on who you "love". You really haven't addressed any of that>><p>I have. I'm trying to say that I don't think a lot of those questions can be answered. There are other guys out there who have the same surface "qualities" that my H does and who could "meet my needs". But I don't love them, I love him. There are no concrete reasons why I love him and not someone else. It just is. Not all things can be explained. <p> <<< For you maybe love is in the doing, and if your H feels the same, no reason not to work.>>><p>No, for us we have learned that love is about taking the bond we naturally have and nurturing it and making it stronger every day. The reason our marraige ran inot trouble in the first place is that we both thought that things were so rigth, that we fir so well, that no effort would ever be required to keep things good and make them even better. But we were wrong. We both learned a hard, painful lesson.<p><<< That is part of the problem, when two people of different temperaments re these fundamental life issues are married, what do you do?>>><p>That is a difficult situation. If a relationship needs maintenance (which IMO all of them do occasionally) and one person is willing to do it and the other person thinks that things are irreperably damaged if maintenance is required, then obviously it probably won't work in the long run. The maintenance person would probably be better off finding someone of similar temperment and the go with the flow person would probably be happier in a series of fairly short term, but always passionate and exciting, relationships. <p><<<What will you do if your H wanders again?>><p>Valid question. I do believe it would be over. I would leave him. I would still love him, I honestly think I always will, no matter what. But if it happened again I would have to think that it was an ingrained behavior pattern, not a terrible mistake. In my own life I have seen many cheaters who have never cheated again, and have no desire to. But most of the people I've known who have done it more than once will do it again. I have to go with life experience. I couldn't put myself through that again. But I believe in second chances because I realize all people are flawed, myself included. My H and I have both made the most of that second chance. I think everyone deserves a second chance, but not necessarily a third or a fourth. If he did cheat again and we did divorce I doubt I woudl ever get married again and I am only 34 years old. Even if he died, I can't see getting married again. Sure I'd have realtionships, maybe even live with someone, but not get married. To me marriage is a huge emotional investment, one per customer.

SNL: <<< I know my w does not love me, she can't, she doesn't even know who I am, and you can't love someone without knowing deeply who they are. She loves me cause I am her H and she values the "picture", and she is afraid to start over. She may say otherwise, makes no difference, I know the truth.>>><p>Fairydust: Now this sounds like nothig more than a major WS justification. The TRUTH is that you can't get inside her head anymore than she can get in yours. You can't decide that type of truth for her. <p>My H said the same SnL...I can't love him 'cause he's changed...I don't know him anymore...he just filled the 'h' spot...<p>I had 'forgotten' to tell him everyday and in everyway how much I loved him...he saw me angry and frustrated...mad faced at him all the time...unhappy...I focused on the half empty glass with him...focused on what he wasn't doing...instead of what he was doing.<p>We became isolated from one another...didn't talk about anything but kids...money...chores...when we did we were often angry...I refused to see his points of view...I had been so disappointed so often...I often didn't see his viewpoint as valid...<p>Now enter his 40th birthday...he's graying...has gained weight...doesn't have the career he wants...feels like a failure...and what does he get from me? A mirror of that failure...I do not support him...I expect...expect and expect...<p>Do you see it SnL...the love hadn't gone anywhere...not mine...and even he will say that he 'loves' me...just isn't 'in-love.' Good gracious...our intimacy was...and still is very passionate...but...during that time we were even growing apart with that...<p>I think, SnL, it depends on a whole bunch of circumstances and timing as to how and why BS loves WS....but regardless...why do you think we should just be able to turn it off?

for the most part fairy you sound like you did marry the right man, you have the right feelings and the right viewpoint to support that notion. I still have a small problem (your case emphazies why) with someone in-lone having an affair, I don't think it is possible. But because people are imperfect maybe one can under some circumstances (and very rarely in my estimation) not realize you are in an in-love relationship, with someone you fit very well, and falter in this way. I think it is almost as despicable to use someone in an affair (as in not have honorable intentions re a life with them), and then go back to someone else and say you really do love them, and was just toying around with someone elses life, what kind of person does that, and why would you love them? At the very least your H did a lot of damage to the ow as well as you, and owes her too. It is common here to demonize the op as inhuman, and only worthy of contempt and hatred, something to just be used and tossed away, the very things the bs says hurts them so much. Still some op are predators and maybe your H was captured due to his own weaknesses, and indeed has learned, and moved forward in his life, frankly I think he has gotten the better deal out of this, I hope he never lets you down. <p>Thanks again for you explanations. Sounds like you did do due diligence, and made your choices on sound principles. I also make note that in your case seperation did reveal truth. In truth no one, maybe not even ourselves, can be sure why we stick with someone, whether it is settleing, or in-love, but I think we have symptons, and they are "felt" in the areas of emotional safety, and loneliness, or passion in other words. If someone only values the marriage for practical reasons, financial security, convienient sex, someone to look after you, but not real passion, anyone could do it sort of thing, I think that is sad, but the result of marriages that exist, but do not fit very good....unfortuneately I know so many marriages like that, including mine. This use to be sort of acceptable due to vows, kids, and stuff, but 30-40 more years? I can't do that. This has to be resolved. The problem is folks telling me just do it, I owe myself to someone, just decide to be happy, none of that makes any sense, and only tells me I am not important, just what I do for someone else is. I got married for the wrong reasons, so did my w, and now we have to pay the consequences. That means we are essentially dating, and both of us must choose to get married, why is it so negative if we don't? People decide not to get married all the time. I guess what bugs me is the unrelenting pressure to stay married to whoever you married in the ignorance of youth, as if it is not possible to make a mistake, and everyone can be content no matter who married too if they just decide...<p>well then, why not just decide not to be married, it is exactly the same thing. If all it takes is work, then you can do it with anyone you marry, why then all this angst? My w will be perfectly content with someone else....right? And certainly better off than someone like me, who apparently is terminally dysfunctional in some way. This whole process makes me feel strange....I am an ok person if I just stay married at meet my w needs as she wants them met, but I am a jerk pondscum if I decide not stay married cause I just don't feel we can connect that way.....but I am the same person either way..aren't I? That makes it feel like manipulation, it shouldn't make any difference what I do, as long as I do it with honesty, and compassion.... right? But it does make a difference, I will be judged by what choice I make, not how I make it, that is coercion. That is what pressuring people to stay in a marriage is about (the cultural pressure to save marriages at all cost, even if it will never be a great marriage), it is about manipulating a certain outcome.... <p>Tell me, how do we encourage people to take an honest look at marriage and include ending it as one of the outcomes of that look? You all say my w loves me, yet she is angry much of the time, and hates my introspection, how can that be love? It seems more like she hates it cause it threatens her, the outcome she wants. Love isn't like that, you don't treat someone you love angrily just for being who they are...do you?<p><<< I know my w does not love me, she can't, she doesn't even know who I am, and you can't love someone without knowing deeply who they are. She loves me cause I am her H and she values the "picture", and she is afraid to start over. She may say otherwise, makes no difference, I know the truth.>>><p>Now this sounds like nothig more than a major WS justification. The TRUTH is that you can't get inside her head anymore than she can get in yours. You can't decide that type of truth for her. <p>
snl..why do you say that? You just discounted my feelings...right? I cannot have such an opinion. Shouldn't whether we think our spouse really loves us be part of our assessment of a marriage? What difference does it make what is in her head or not, I must choose to believe her or not...right? Don't you do the same, what would you do if you believed your H didn't love you? I am not decideing for her, I am decideing for me. Lots of people live their lives in all sorts of denial, and we oft times recognize that and discount what they say...true? The bottom line is I cannot find a single reason to stay married that is not about quid pro quo, or not wanting to be held responsible for her mental health (she will be destroyed blah blah blah)....guess in the final analysis we really are property, and a marriage license is the deed to us. I would much prefer she arrive at the same conclusion, that we are connected through history, kids, and caring, but should not try to be intimate partners, we do not fit that way, and amicably divorce, and be supportive special friends, I bear her no illwill. And if perchance we discover we do belong together, we can always date and pursue each other properly. But that will not be, she has made it clear she will pretty much despise me, and I have a hard time recognizing that as love.

I think you are writing this post for me. I have often felt scared and really don't want to start over. H took 10 precious years of my life and we are going to make it work eventhough I have to do some sacrifising. I sometimes wonder if I am really in love w/him or just used to him being around, used to the comfort of not being alone. At times I just want to run away and forget it all, easier said than done. I always was the type of person who said I would never ever put up w/a H who wasn't honest, or faithful to me, that it would be over in an instant. <p>I do get very hateful alot if H does not respond to me the way I want. It usually just blows up in my fact because I spend so much time trying to meet H needs and finally get fed up because H has not done one thing for me.. and a spouse as a wife. I do admit my temper is not a good one.. but I feel I have been very patient about the whole situation. <p>Here is my theory, If I didn't care, or love this person with my whole body and soal. If I really felt that our connection was totally severed, why would I waste my time, why would I care? Why would I keep fighting??? I wouldn't, I feel I have more to gain if I fight. And if it doesn't work out, at least I tried, I will never have the burden on me that I just gave up. <p>And you know what, you are totally right about thinking in the back of my head about, not wanting to start all over, being a quitter, and most of all Pride to know you are left in the dust because of someother person who must of had something you didn't. and that you gave every part of your being to your spouse. and all that is left is a big gapping hole.

Dear SNL,<p>I used to be one of those who thought that love was some wonderful magical mysterious emotion. Not anymore. Love is an emotion you feel for someone who does good things for you when it comes to spouses. Love for children is a different biological thing.<p>I am one of the few BS`s (I think ) who had no love left for their spouse. My love bank was very low for years for various reasons and as soon as I had confirmations of my H`s A`s the little that was left was completely wiped out. I could not have cared less if he dropped dead. I wanted to end the marriage several times. My H on the other hand did still have some feelings of love. I hadn`t been the perfect wife but I hadn`t gone to the extreme he did so I guess that`s why he still had a bit of love left. He wanted to save the marriage. He talked me it no trying. It`s funny at first my H said to me "you know you are going to have to work awfully hard to regain my love" EXCUSE ME???!!! Hold on a minute here buddy, I don`t really want to have you love me, I`d rather walk out and start over. I don`t want to be married to a cheator. There was never any question of ME doing a plan A, if he wanted EA woman then he was welcome to her. <p>This also puzzles me about some BS`s, how they can still love someone who has cheated on them. I cannot imagine EVER still loving and plan Aing someone who had hurt me so. I have hestitated bringing this up because it goes against MB principals. This wasn`t a plan that I worked out in my mind either, I am not that smart. I don`t think that my H and I would be this far along into recovery if I had been grovelling at his feet. I could bent over backwards to regain his love and that would have given him the upper hand. He could have kept this going forever. <p>I read some of these posts and it is amazing to me what some people will put up with. Yeah I know I have also put up with alot more that many people would have. I had a limit though. I reached mine. It also amazed me to read that some WS`s feel that they are entitled to being plan A`ed. I don`t see it that way, the person who does the plan A is the person who wants to save the marriage, my H in our case. <p>Sometimes I wonder if other BS`s who are having a hard time getting their EN`s met by WS`s are on the right track but every situation is different. My H really wanted to stay married. He was willing to plan A. The Harleys do say that it`s usually the WS who is doing the least to meet needs pre A. My H is doing the work and that makes me more willing to do things for him. We are slowly getting our act together. It would not have worked had my H not been willing to work to regain my love. He gets it now too, my love is not just some "feeling" that he can count on. He`s got to earn it and keep earning it.

Dear SNL, <p>Remember what you told me about the fear of the unknown, I think that`s partly why some BS`s work so hard to save their marriages. I`ve already been divorced, I know that it is, it would make me sad but it doesn`t scare me.

snl..why do you say that? You just discounted my feelings...right? I cannot have such an opinion. Shouldn't whether we think our spouse really loves us be part of our assessment of a marriage? What difference does it make what is in her head or not, I must choose to believe her or not...right? Don't you do the same, what would you do if you believed your H didn't love you? I am not decideing for her, I am decideing for me. Lots of people live their lives in all sorts of denial, and we oft times recognize that and discount what they say...true? The bottom line is I cannot find a single reason to stay married that is not about quid pro quo, or not wanting to be held responsible for her mental health (she will be destroyed blah blah blah)....guess in the final analysis we really are property, and a marriage license is the deed to us. I would much prefer she arrive at the same conclusion, that we are connected through history, kids, and caring, but should not try to be intimate partners, we do not fit that way, and amicably divorce, and be supportive special friends, I bear her no illwill. And if perchance we discover we do belong together, we can always date and pursue each other properly. But that will not be, she has made it clear she will pretty much despise me, and I have a hard time recognizing that as love. <p>Ahhh...the heart of this post? I am sorry SnL...I wish that thinker could show you (would you let her) that she loves you with actions you would believe...(would you believe?) <p>I would pray that both of you would see the value of each other and feel love and enjoy the history that you have both developed over the years. God does not want you to be in an unhappy marriage...but he does want you to do the things that would make it happy...both of you....and I'm sorry SnL...I really do think happiness comes from within...I really do believe that altering your viewpoint can make a difference...I really do believe...<p>Cali

I just had to jump in here and say Wow Cali, your post about forgetting to tell him you love him, how he see's only your frustration and anger, how you can't know him, he's changed...<p>I could have written that, only I have just figured it out this past weekend. I have been alone as he is out of town, so I guess I have had a bit more time to think, but this is so what happened to us. <p>I know it is off topic, but I was just amazed by the similarity.<p>Needing

[QUOTE]Originally posted by sad_n_lonely:
[QB] I still have a small problem (your case emphazies why) with someone in-lone having an affair, I don't think it is possible. But because people are imperfect maybe one can under some circumstances (and very rarely in my estimation) not realize you are in an in-love relationship, with someone you fit very well, and falter in this way.>>><p> There are times when people think that they are no longer in love with their spouse and have an affair for many reasons and then realize that they loved their spouse all along. It is definitley not always the case, but I have talked to enough former WSs (not including my H) to know that it's no unusual. When my friend had her A she was convinced that she had no love for her H at all. When all was said and done she realized she couldn't love anyone on earht more than she loved her H. No, it's not logical and doesn't really make sense, but it happens.<p> <<<I think it is almost as despicable to use someone in an affair (as in not have honorable intentions re a life with them), and then go back to someone else and say you really do love them, and was just toying around with someone elses life, what kind of person does that, and why would you love them?>>><p>But it's not always like that. Dating relationships break up all the time, and at best an affair is only a dating relationship. At the time my H left me for the OW he believed that he no longer loved me and was in love with her. Within afew months he decided that he had made a mistake and was wrong about his feelings for both of us. Obviously since he left and was with her his short term plan was to be with her. That's the most anyone can ask for when dating someone new. She admitted that he never made her any long term promises as far as marriage or a family or anything.<p> <<At the very least your H did a lot of damage to the ow as well as you, and owes her too.>><p>What did he owe her? She willingly and eagerly jumped into a fire and got burned. Tough. He told her he was sorry he hurt her. I think that was plenty. If he wanted the marraige he owed it to ME to make her disappear from our lives 9whihc turned out to be easier said than done).<p><<It is common here to demonize the op as inhuman, and only worthy of contempt and hatred, something to just be used and tossed away, the very things the bs says hurts them so much.>>><p>I hate her because she said and did terrible things to me after she got dumped. "Tossed away" is the least of what she deserved. If she had left me alone once he ended their relationship she woudl be a complete non entity to me now. <p><<<Still some op are predators and maybe your H was captured due to his own weaknesses, and indeed has learned, and moved forward in his life>><p>Don't get me wrong. My H was no victim. The OW made it very clear she was interested and he played right along, therefore it was totally mutual. He is a grown adult and he knew that he was entering a forbidden zone when he neglected to tell me that she was calling him after she got fired from their workplace. He could have nipped that in the bud easily, but didn't. He has never made excuses for his behavior or tried to blame the OW. He didn't demonize her, but he didn't defend her either. After the harrassment started he did have to get ugly with her and by then he found her frightening, anyone would have. I know that not all OW are like that, but Fatal Attraction was real for us. <p><<If someone only values the marriage for practical reasons, financial security, convienient sex, someone to look after you, but not real passion, anyone could do it sort of thing, I think that is sad, but the result of marriages that exist, but do not fit very good...>><p>Agreed.<p><<The problem is folks telling me just do it, I owe myself to someone, just decide to be happy, none of that makes any sense, and only tells me I am not important, just what I do for someone else is.>>><p>I think you owe it to your wife to really try, with an open mind. It may or may not work.<p><<I got married for the wrong reasons, so did my w, and now we have to pay the consequences.>>><p>I can understand youthful mistakes. If I had gotten marreid to any of the guys I'd dated when I was very young it woudl have been a mess. But I still woudl have felt that I owed it a good, hard try to make it work. <p><<<I guess what bugs me is the unrelenting pressure to stay married to whoever you married in the ignorance of youth, as if it is not possible to make a mistake, and everyone can be content no matter who married too if they just decide...>>><p>IMO when you make a commitment you need to make a sincere effort to stick to it. It might not work but the effort should be made. I don't believe in staying in a marraige in which you will be miserable, but I do believe in making an effort. In many cases the passion really can be rekindled. <p><<<FD-Now this sounds like nothig more than a major WS justification. The TRUTH is that you can't get inside her head anymore than she can get in yours. You can't decide that type of truth for her. >>><p>
<<<snl..why do you say that? You just discounted my feelings...right? I cannot have such an opinion.>>><p>I am just saying that just because you think that your W doesn't love you doesn't make it "truth". Your truth maybe, but not necessarily hers. She may feel very differently.<p><<<The bottom line is I cannot find a single reason to stay married that is not about quid pro quo, or not wanting to be held responsible for her mental health (she will be destroyed blah blah blah)....>>><p>And that is sad. But have you REALLY tried? <p><<< I would much prefer she arrive at the same conclusion, that we are connected through history, kids, and caring, but should not try to be intimate partners, we do not fit that way, and amicably divorce, and be supportive special friends>><p>Well of course that is what you want. It would make things so much easier for you. But life doesn't really work that way. You don't generally get to make a big mess of things (like an affair) and walk off with big hugs and bright smiles from everyone. If my H and I had gotten divorced I woudl have had no desire to be his friend. I would have had to completely remove him from my life as much as humanly possible to minimize my pain.<p><<< A she has made it clear she will pretty much despise me, and I have a hard time recognizing that as love.>>><p>There really is a thin line between love an hate. I would not have been able to be "friends" with my H if we had divorced. It would have ripped my heart out over again every time we saw each other or spoke. Sometimes hate is the last little bit of self preservation someone who has been through the wringer has left. Once again, not logical, but that's life.

SNL,<p>I am not going to argue/discuss this topic with you anymore. This discussion has been going on since at least April and it go no where. At this point you are discounting the marriages of just about every person here and just about anywhere else as 'settling'. <p>You have used a typical low ploy often used in arguments is to discredit a person, attacking their character and credibility. You have crossed the line in presuming and disrespectfully judging me, my husband, and my marriage. I find it a terrible misuse of the sharing we all do here on MB to use the personal information we share in this manner. <p>I am furious right now and feel that I do need to make some comments in support of STL, my marriage and myself.<p>Have you ever heard of the theory of the dragon in the living room? The family gathers for holidays and every time the dragon shows up. That dragon is a big smelly, disgusting, mean thing that disrupts every family get together. It demonizes people, smells up the house, yes ugly things at people, and spits fire. Yet no one in the family will acknowledge how obnoxious, hurtful and destructive that dragon is. We all have at least one dragon in our extended family/friends. Yet all it takes to get rid of the dragon and spare from its assaults is for one or more of the other people in the house to stand up to the dragon. <p>Well, I feel that I've been insulted and attacked. I've learned to always stand up to the dragon. So I'm going to have my say here.<p>snl...I wouldn't presume to tell you your feelings, but if someone were describing your circumstances to me, I would speculate you simply did not want to start over for a fourth time, and were willing to settle if you could get some guarantees. People are not usually all good or all bad, so it is natural to want to stay with someone even if they have serious flaws, if they have good points. That is not at all what I am talking about. I am talking about human psychology and how that impacts intimacy.<p>You are presuming and judging disrespectfully. I am in this marriage for one reason alone. I love STL. I believe in my heart of hearts that we have a wonderful, loving relationship.<p>I have learned a bit from my marriages. The silver lining of the failed relationships is that I have become a better, more cognizant and loving person. I have learned a lot about what love is and what it is not. The fact that I have had two failed, rather tragic marriages does not preclude me from the human race or from knowing love. Many people will judge a person harshly for having failed marriages. They judge that same person even more harshly for tying again to love and at marriage. It's as though we are supposed to shrivel up and die if we make a bad choice in marital partner. Those who judge in this way are small-minded people. How dare you judge that my life and loves are not valid. You my dear man have done no better. If anything you have done worse because you cannot even decide what you want in life and instead stay stuck in a quagmire of emotional yuk. <p>You know what really amazes me? Is that every so often there is someone here who will make an ugly, disrespectful statement to me like the ones you made here. I suppose it is the price one pays for being opon and forthright on an open forum. Do you member "RealityCheck"? He was another such person. Yet, in all of your judgement of me, you are doing mean, cruel things that I would never do to another person. You have the nerve to judge me whist you continue to justify your own hurtful behavior. If I have been guilty of anything in this life, it has been of giving too much, of loving and understanding people too much.<p>SNL I would speculate you simply did not want to start over for a fourth time, and were willing to settle if you could get some guarantees.<p>That is a grossly disrespectful judgement on your part. I have never, ever, said anything like that. It is your projection on our marriage. Only STL and I know how we feel about our marriage and about each other. We have BOTH expressed our feelings toward each other here many times. How dare you belittle them. What you say here makes me sound pathetic. I can assure you I am not pathetic and am not settling so simply not start over a fourth time. If STL and I were not passionately in love, I'd be out of here in a heartbeat. Neither of us needs the other for financial support, to have children or anything other then the love we share. I certainly do not NEED to be married. I am married because I love STL and want him in my life. That is it, pure and simple. If things do not work out between STL and me, I will no problems starting all over. In case you have not figured it out about me, I am not timid or afraid of taking life head on. I will not stay in a bad marriage. I did that once and found it was the most destructive thing that has ever happened to my son, my ex and me.<p>snl...And maybe you have never been in-love, how would you know. Your track record indicates a lack of skill in recognizing love, when in fact you were selecting toxic relationships. No wonder you are so bent on making it a structural issue, a behavioral issue, emotions have served you poorly. Remember, I think it is both. <p>Well here is just more of that disrespectful judgement you are dishing out. This just is just an ugly and gross thing to say to a person. Yes I had some toxic relationships. However my emotions have served me very well in life I have learned to trust them and to trust my inner voice. These will guide me better then any structural or behavioral approaches ever will. Structural or behavioral approaches are only tools to be used as needed.<p>If you think that I am bent on structural and behavioral issues, then you have not been listening to me. The chemistry has to be there first. But the nurturing needs to happen or the chemistry will die. It is predictable. You may not be capable of learning to nurture. I am. I also know that STL is. To discount the positive contribution of structural and behavior elements in a good marriage is a foolish as discounting the contribution of 'chemistry' to that relationship.<p>From your way of thinking I can only assume that you don't know diddly squat either because you have a grossly failed marriage. You lso had at least two other relationships both of which have failed. As a matter of fact one of them was an affair during your current marriage. How could you know anything about life or love with YOUR track record. Did I get you upset? Good I was trying to. Just throwing some of your garbage back at you so you can see how ridicules it is.<p>You're discounting me because of my two failed marriages reminds me of a study has been done of successful business people. The average successful businessperson, defined as one who now has a successful business earning in the millions annually, had ten (yes 10) business failures before their final successful attempt. You see, these are smart people who learned from their mistakes and just did not get discouraged and give up. <p>Snl.. Re stl, I am not sure of all the details, but it seems I recall he used women, he did not love them, this indeed could be a coping mechanism he could recover from, and all other things being good, could fit you I suppose. But that has nothing to do with MB, has to do with stl healing himself, and when healed still wanting to be married to you (and you him).<p>Did he 'use' women? I don't think that applies in his case. For one thing the term 'use' means that the 'used' person had not choice in what happened to them. It also assumes that the person is a commodity. Women ceased being commodities in this country a long time ago. While it is true that he did not tell them that he was engaged and then later married, it did not really matter to any of them. A couple of the women were married and cheating on their husbands. The others were single women who never did anything significant to make sure they knew his status. If a woman has an internet/phone affair with a man for 2.5 years and NEVER meets him in person, never gets his home phone number or address, this means that she does not give a hang about if he is married or not. It also means that the relationship does not mean much to her. Each and every one of the women told me that they were the ones who initiated the cyber/phone sex. Heck they were the ones who made all the phone calls for cyber sex I know because they told me and I have phone bills to show it. Who was using who? A single woman who is interested in a man does what I did they meet eachother's families, friends, visits their homes, meet each other's co-workers and so on. They become a part of each other's lives. The one he did have a weekend PA with never asked him for anything and never promised him anything. (By her account) She just wanted a roll in the hay with the guy she met on the Internet. After their little weekend together she went back home to her live in boyfriend. By the way, she forgot to tell STL about the live in boyfriend. So again, who was using whom?<p>You may recall that I spoke to all 10 of his Internet 'friends'. I made sure that each of them knew that he was involved on the same level with many other women. Every one of them promised me that they would never contact or talk to him again. And then every one of them contacted him to give him 'support' and to continue their relationship. None of this seemed to matter to them. What they did not know is that I was right there when they contacted him. I never told them I knew of their attempts to continue relationships with him. And when I spoke to each of them again, they swore up and down that they had not and would never contact him again. No, those women were not used. They are vultures of the worse kind. SNL, women are not poor used creatures. Some women more aggressive in relationships then men are.<p>No he did no love these women. Some of them thought that they cared deeply for him. But in reality how deeply can a person care about someone they never met? They also, to a number, never really asked him about himself.<p>I have explained here that STL was going through a very tough recovery from the breakup of his previous marriage. I believe that the affairs were a coping mechanism. They are not his normal way of dealing with life and relationships. You might recall that in his previous marriages it was his wives who were the WS. This was not behavior he engaged in. And yes he has healed himself.<p>I am always amazed at people who will blame and diminish the people who are victimized (yes STL and I were both victimized in our previous marriages.). I suppose that a person who is mugged is also responsible for their mugging?<p>We have chosen to be married to each other. And we do not feel that we are settling at all. Despite his flaws, I feel lucky to have STL in my life. And despite my flaws, STL loves me.

zorweb... I am not going to argue/discuss this topic with you anymore.<p>snl...Ok. Thanks for your contributions, even when angry and doing the very things you chastise me for. Re stl, you have to understand that if you are going to bring your relationship into a discussion that is fair to comment on it. I meant no disrerspect (as you well know), but I calls em as I sees em, hopefully as civilily as possible. My comments are not re his worth as a human being, but in response to your use of stl as an example to support your opinions. He did use the women if his chasing of them was for anything other than matrimony, that is the way it works. I believe you said he chased women as a resolution to some internal problems, if I have that right, he used em, plain and simple....makes no matter what they wanted, they may have used him too for all I know, but that would be irrelevant and does not excuse his behaviour. I have no idea what you meant re your comments about women in general. Sorry you are angry, but since you are, there must be reasons, and it might behoove you to explore them.<p>re your comments about my "general" observations re marital stories I see here...don't know what to tell you, it is clear to me most marriages are accomodations, I do not say that is good or bad (it could be either), I just say it is, and it is not how I want to live my life that's all. The only reason it comes up is cause how and why we marry demands we study the nature of marriages, I need to understand this stuff, just like you need what you need. It should not be made into a contest. We should each choose this most intimate of relationships exactly how we want to...right? I say again zorweb, far as I know I have never said one should not be in a settled marriage, I just say in-love is a very real measureable phenomena, and one few people actually experience. That means there has to be some other reason people marry and stay married, now I understand it. Nor does it surprise me people insist on calling any marriage they are in "love". Even when they are miserable, or neglected, unfullfilled, abused, ignored, working constantly just to achieve a tolerable marriage, walking on eggshells, dealing with anger, feeling lonely, the list goes on and on. <p>Everyone wants to be in-love, and few of us are honest enough to face the reality when we are not, much easier to just say whatever we feel is love, and just do it..... I probably am defective in some way, I definitely am far out on the bell curve re calling a spade a spade, and it does annoy people, but rather than be annoyed, I would much rather people actually make a better argument, one that applies to everyone, one that is observable and repeatable...I am not satisfied with what most people call love, and I am not shy about saying so, hardly reason to be mad at me.<p>Anyways good luck to you and yours.

Bringing my relationship into a discussion does open it for discussion. But you did not really discuss my relationship. Instead you refuted that we could be in love, could even know what love is, or that our marriage could be anything more then settling.. not because you know anything of substance about our marriage today but because we were married in the past, had other toxic relationship and because STL had affairs. The only thing you know about our marriage today is what we have said here on MB. We have consistently said that we are in love, in recovery and very happy. You threw out the validity of our marriage, not based on its current state, but on our past. So why the angry judgement of STL? You are always complaining that BS's don't take the WS's needs and feelings into account. Yet you are so very ready to do the same thing. It seems from your statement that there is no way that STL can ever be forgiven or repent for his bad behavior. You comments are against STL as a human. Yes there is no excuse for what he did. I make no excuses for his behavior, was only clarifying on the concept of "using" people. In my book, using people occurs when one is totally taken for a ride so that the other can achieve some goal. When both people are choosing to be in a relationship of their own free will, for their own reasons, this is not using. He is totally responsible for what he did. He takes that responsibility and is working his butt off to recover our marriage. That is repentance in action. It seems that in your eyes, can we never learn from our mistakes, repent and recover our marriage. <p>I was sharing the reality of my marriage and where we are at in recovery. Did you reject the possibility of our love for each other and our recovery because it does not fit your argument? Does it make you angry that we have reconciled and building a good, healthy marriage? Does it make you angry that we are truly passionately in love with each other? By any definition of love, our relationship fits. What is it about our relationship that made you lash out? Now there is something you may want to look at.<p>Snl? and doing the very things you chastise me for<p>I chastised you for degrading and discounting my marriage, my H, and me. I have never degraded you, your wife or your marriage. If anything I keep imploring you and her to work together and to make whatever decision fits your needs. I have never said that you and your thoughts have no valued because you had relationships before you married your wife, because you had an affair, or because you used women. (By YOUR definition any relationship you had with a woman who you did not marry is a use of that woman. By some definitions, any man who has a sexual relationship with any woman he is not married to is using that woman.) I was addressing your argument, not you and your wife as people. There is a huge difference. You did not refute my argument for its validity/lack-of-validity. You discounted it because of STL and my pasts. You are essentially saying that our marriage and he can never have any value because of his past behavior. This leaves no room for repentance in one's life. <p>Snl? I definitely am far out on the bell curve re calling a spade a spade, and it does annoy people, but rather than be annoyed, I would much rather people actually make a better argument, one that applies to everyone, one that is observable and repeatable...I am not satisfied with what most people call love, and I am not shy about saying so, hardly reason to be mad at me.<p>Snl, it is my opinion that sometimes the greatest lessons come from inidividual experiences. That is the reason I brought up my experience. Since I do not do research in the area of relationships I cannot speak from much other then my experience. That is the case of everyone here. So, if our experiences are discounted, then we have nothing to talk about.<p>By your definition, STL and I are not in-love. There is no passion or love in our relationship. I believe that is for us to decide and not you. If I'm not in love, what ever this is is great. I sure don't want to loose it. Why would you say this? What makes you think that you have enough information about us to make this assumption?

z, guess we are still talking huh. Maybe just a misunderstanding, maybe just different styles, but I was not telling you how you feel, I was suggesting alternative explanations for the one you offered to prove your point. I consider it a given (and you are a smart woman) that you know I cannot know what is in your heart, and would not presume to tell you so. Everything I said was re the points in discussion, and not intended to be taken personal. I must note my feelings are regularly analyzed, and thrown in my face as well on occassion, turrible things are said about me, but I do not get riled, I assume the folks are just offering me food for thought, don't you also feel the same? Why did you choose to interpret my comments personally, I don't get it, really. In any event, hope that clarify's something anyways. You are absolutely correct, if you think you are happy, passionanately in-love, and all is well, who would I be to say you are not, and indeed, I would not say that in that way.