It seems to me that I am obviously the idiot here. Why is it that what I think and feel are suddenly irrelevant facts of life? How can it not be enough that I truly want my marriage to work and that I will try to make things right. Is it fair that only what W wants is what matters? I am more than willing to be of some assistance to the OW if she asks what I think. I am not saying that I will be talking about us and the "what ifs". I am saying that it just might be possible in the realm of reality that I can make an honest and true attempt at being "all there" for my wife and family, and still not completely cut off any communication (other than work) with the OW. I want us to work, but I refuse to have all of the conditions be put on me. If this is the "addiction" that some of you talk about, then I may be entirely wrong and just in a fog and haze of reality. I suppose then it would be similar to the heroin user saying he just wants to stick the full syringe in his arm just to make sure that it is okay with him not using the drug inside. But I must say that I dont truly believe that. I hope you can all help, and I am really listening to the advice you give with all of the openmindedness that I have. At the same time I must say that I don't like being "kicked" by anyone that disagrees with my points ( not that any of you have ). Please continue to post replies, folks. They really do mean alot to me in this time of serious struggles with W. <P>------------------<BR>We stumble and fall sometimes, and that hurts. But it is the most incredible realization when you look and see that it was your spouse that picked you back up......<P>Take care of and Love each other.....Arik<P><BR>

I am <B>with</B> you on this. I work with the OM in my case. I <B>understand</B> but I'm telling you this as someone who's been where you are and who learned a valuable lesson recently: you <B>must try</B> to cut off all communication except work related issues. <P>I tried to remain friends with the OM. I liked him before the affair, loved him during, why wouldn't I want to remain friends? You're probably thinking the same. Let me tell you why we couldn't do it. <B>My H and his W</B>, that's why. Yes, he and I could have done it, I really believe that. But if healing is to take place, real true healing... the OP cannot be a part of the process. <P>You and I are in a tough position, aren't we? We aren't alone here. Several posters work with the OP. But let me tell you, in <B>NO</B> situation has it worked to remain friends. <P>Do you see what I mean?? <P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>Marriage: the most important contract you'll ever enter into, and the most sacred.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited November 11, 1999).]

Thanx...New, for the insight, but in all honesty I am still not much changed for the better on this one. I am not of the belief that not anyone, anywhere has been able to successfully repair their marriage while having some sort of "relationship" with the OP. My heart is with my W but I know that she either doesn't believe it or that it just doesn't matter enough to her. All that seems to matter is that I give what she wants. I must admit that this is so for the only point that we are really disagreeing on. The point being of course, is "no non-work contact". I really appreciate your reply, and I do admire your achievments in your relationship. I hope things continue to be good for you and your spouse.<P>------------------<BR>We stumble and fall sometimes, and that hurts. But it is the most incredible realization when you look and see that it was your spouse that picked you back up......<P>Take care of and Love each other.....Arik<P><BR>

Your wife NEEDS to FEEL safe from even the tiniest risk of further betrayal. What is it<BR>you are NOT GETTING? You are a COUPLE. You simply can not have a friendship with a women that EXLUDES your wife! (especialy someone you've betrayed her with!!) really, how can you NOT understand this?

Hi 2Soulmates -<P>First I want to say welcome to you - I have not replied to you till now so Hi!<P>I have not read anything else but this thread and your profile yet so I am only responding to what you have said here..<P>This is really very simple....<P>You became "friends" with this OW and you couldn't just be friends!!!! <P>You took it way beyond...it has nothing to do with your wife's having it her way....YOU created the broken boundaries of friendship and of the marriage for that matter - Not your wife!! You hurt your wife...she is merely resetting the boundaries that you broke. You are not strong enough emotionally to do so.<P>Why would your wife or you or OW have any reason to believe that it is possible to resume a "friendship" now? <P>YOU KNOW that is not possible!!! There will ALWAYS be that intimacy that should only be for your wife. You have stolen from your wife and given what was hers to this OW.....Your love, emotions, body, time, attention, recreation, thoughts, feelings, ideas....etc.....<P>You took something pure and tainted it..now you are angyry cause you feel restricted? This is your own doing - why turn it onto your wife? I don't understand? <P>I am not saying any of this to "kick" you or anything...they are just the reality of your choices...<P>You have been the one making choices without including your wife's feelings in any of them..... Your wife is requesting something for the benefit of both of you and the marriage.<P>Switch roles for a minute...Put yourself in your wife's shoes. What would you do or say or how would you react if your wife and some guy were behaving the way you and OW did/are.....<P>I hope that this helps you to understand some....Your perspective about "restrictions" is more of a defense than any logic about the good of the marriage.<P>HUGS and Prayers for you and your wife,<P>Sheba

Hello 2 Soulmates<P>Your name says it. You really can't have two soulmates. That is a one on one exclusive relationship. Any time or feelings directed to one takes away from the other. Now what I understood is that you want to give your wife priority in your life but think she is unreasonable to ask you to cut all non-work ties with the OW. Look at what you said. <P> "My heart is with my W but I know that she either doesn't believe it or that it just doesn't matter enough to her. All that seems to matter is that I give what she wants."<P>I am a woman who newly learned she was betrayed. My husband seemed shocked that I thought he no longer cared about me. An earlier poster said tht you should try to put yourself in her position. If you could, it would help you in deciding what to do. When we are betrayed, our whole reality is shattered. We cannot compute that he would break the marriage vows and be with the other woman and still care about us. To believe he really wants us, he must give up her.<P>Again "My heart is with my W but I know that she either doesn't believe it or that it just doesn't matter enough to her."<P>Put your money where your mouth is. If you are truly choosing your wife, then you must give up the other woman. To do otherwise is not regarding your wife's heart. Hopefully she can see your sacrifice and can offer support about your fully giving up someone that you cared about and made you feel good (OW) but to stay in the middle is an insult to them both. If you do care about the OW and she loves you, it is cruel to give her morsels which she will likely read as hope that she can have more if she will wait. IF you are REALLY choosing your wife, set the OW free, otherwise you are betraying both of them and you wind up without a true soulmate relationship with either of them.<P>Good luck.<P>Callie<P>

2S - what they said. You're not being kicked. I'm pulling for you, but you can't be defensive and set your own guidelines for your wife to just have to "live with". And yeah, you're not being that sarcastic with your heroin analogy.<P>"just one chip"<BR>"just one drink"<BR>"just be friends"<P>You ask why all of a sudden the things you think and feel are irrelevant facts of life. Don't you understand, that's what GOT you to this place. Letting your thoughts and feeling go where they shouldn't. And they will keep you here and end your marriage if you don't get past them.<P>You guys can't be friends. I'm sorry these aren't things you wanted to hear, but when you come here you ask for honesty and support.<P>One of the things I said to you in my very first post to you is that you aren't all that different from any of us. It was a little comforting, wasn't it, to know that what has happened to you could happen to anyone. The same thing applies now. <P>I couldn't sleep tonight so I went and looked up some stuff that I thought I remembered in books here. Found it but too tired to quote. Pretty much says that one of the first things the betrayer tries to do is justify some sort of "friendly" relation to continue with the OP. Yup. That's the way it is.<P>That's everyone. Not just you. But you're following the profile. I know, that sounds and feels yucky. Being like most all other betrayers isn't so comforting anymore. Listen to these guys. They DO understand. And they know. <P>You're not crazy about the conditions. Your inappropriate relationship with the OW has set conditions for your wife that she had no input into whatsoever. She has endured tremendous pain, had her world shaken and was certainly never consulted about her opinions as to what should go on. <P>You said you wanted to recover from this. I, for one, believed you. I still do. But you've got to be willing to do the really hard stuff. You and OW AREN't just friends. You want your wife to trust you. Then you have to show you're trustworthy by putting your marriage and her feelings above all others. <P>You are injured here too. You are hurting and you are suffering. No doubt about it. But your choices brought you here. And they brought about your wife's suffering and severe damage to your marriage. It will be your choices once again that determine whether you, your wife and your marriage continue to suffer.<P>I'm pulling for you. And not minimizing your feelings. We're just telling you the way things are. You cannot regain trust, you cannot cherish your wife, you cannot pass through withdrawal and you cannot protect your marriage and remain friends with the OW. And if she's working on rebuilding her marriage, she can't do it either. <P>Good luck. <P>Lori<p>[This message has been edited by lostva (edited November 11, 1999).]

I guess being friends with the ow after an affair is sorta like just doing a little heroin after "kicking" it? Why not? It won't hurt anything/one. Besides, <I>it's just a little!</I><P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html</A>

2S --<P>Please realize that nobody's ganging up on you. It's admirable that you AND your spouse are both actively trying to piece your relationship back together. So many of on the board find that they are alone in trying to put it back together.<P>With that last idea in mind... Flip sides. Imagine that you are the betrayed. You don't know what happened, your life was turned upside down. Every element of trust has been called into question. You doubt everything around you. You doubt yourself. What did you do wrong to drive your S away? Can it be fixed? Ever? How do I talk to my S? Why is she so angry, so resentful toward me? I didn't cheat, she did! Why won't he/she admit the affair? Why won't he/she apologize? Who can I talk to?<P>As a betrayed, that's what you go through. Not that the betrayer doesn't have questions. They have just as many. But, if you are to rebuild, you have to see it from the other side of the fence. <P>The "other side" (aka betrayed) will always question the presence of an OP. You must cut off all contact with this OP. It shows your S that you are as vested in rebuilding the relationship. You would expect it from her, why not she from you. The OP will always be there, always a "threat" as long as she's there. <P>It won't be easy. But, it MUST happen if you have any hope in regaining the trust and compassion without it being hollow.<P>Stay positive, keep communicating, and keep your chin up!<P>-- keystone

<BR> if you want your marriage to work,you have to give up the other woman.What part of that dont you understand?

2 Soulmates:<BR>I am with the rest....you must give up OW completely....I am going through this right now with H....we had a major blow up last night...OW left the job on 10/30 because she had no choice...they worked together and had sex after work....after everyone else left for the day....and he would tell me he was working late....I asked him if he had talked to her since the left (11 days ago) and he denied it....the fight continued until this morning when he admitted that he did talk to her....but about some stuff she left behind in a bag....not about them....because he claims its over.....but.....I don't believe its over.....I told him he should not be calling her about ANYTHING>...NOTHING...then he went on to admit that there have been a couple of other phone calls about the business she left behind...this may never be over....if contact is COMPLETELY cut off....this morning he made me swear that I either stop accusing him of continuing with her or for me to move out.....I opted not to mention her name again....I am hoping to save my marriage.....even if I have so many doubts....it takes a strong person to put something behind....when there is doubts....do you understand why you cannot be <BR>friend with OW ???????? Its not fair to us, the wifes........how do we know what really transpires in these conversations ? How do we know you are not making plans to meet at some motel.....talking to them, seeing them.....only makes the sexual attraction linger on......only gives more opportunity.....please understand.....

2S- Believe it or not, you have some of the best people answering you and they are all saying the same thing! My experience's on this board is that people have a tendancy to tell you like it is, simply because that's what your asking. If you want to know the truth, you will see it.<BR>The truth is that if you continue to have a "friendship" with this OW, it will undermine ANY and ALL attempts you may make with your wife! She needs to feel she has a "fighting" chance for her to give you that leap of faith she will have to make towards trust again. <BR>Try to put yourself in her shoes and understand how she must feel, to be told that you love her yet you love someone else. She believes in a love that is pure, and this sounds to mixed up to be pure. The hurt and anger an affair does to the betrayed is intense, she needs your support more than ever, and it sounds like your still trying to split yourself in two. <BR>I know how difficult life must be for you now but I would look at these issues and know that the people here truly care and are giving good advice, hopefully they are not letting their pearls of wisdom fall on the sow's ear! God Bless You!<P>------------------<BR>Chick's <BR>Bren<P>You won't see things until your ready to not be blind!<P>

No non-work related contact, period. There's no bargaining or rationalization. Just do it.

Two points:<BR>Your wife is engulfed in a pain you can not imagine and she is frightened and panicing at the same time. Even if she appears to "have it together", she is devastated. Believe us. Remember that when you talk to her and reason with her. Her world as she knows it has been shaken to the core.<P>I offer this simple filter to use.<P>IS THIS THE BEST WAY I CAN HONOR MY MARRIAGE?<P>Is this (insert thought or idea) the best way I can honor my marriage?<P>Is what I am saying (insert words) the best way I can honor my marriage?<P>Is this action I take (insert action) the best way I can honor my marriage?<P>If you can honestly say "yes" without a "but" or a defensive explaination, then you are probibly on the right track.<P>After all, if your marriage is your priority, then you would not want to do anything that in anyway would undermine it, right? Be congruent. Make sure your words are congruent with your actions, otherwise your words will mean nothing.<P>Instead of seeing it as what your wife wants vs. what you want, reframe it. Judge your thoughts words and actions by what brings HONOR to your marriage. Healing will follow.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

It's quite simple, really. <P>What hurts your wife, and what is damaging to your marriage, you let go of. The most important thing in your marriage is your wife, and what hurts her (and she is hurt and this isn't borne out of being overly sensitive, you had an affair!) has to be given up. <P>It's great you're working on your marriage, but it sounds as if you're not willing to give it 100%. When you have an affair, reparations have to be made, and this means respecting your wife and knowing that you did make a horrible mistake and you're willing to do what it takes to heal the marriage and help your wife heal. This isn't a small mistake we've made, it's a major one.

2 soulmates:<P>I'll put it even more extreme. You should quit your job and find a new one. You should discuss with your wife about moving.<P>It may be inconvenient, but in the long run, if you do this together, your marriage will be stronger. Right now you're only paying lip service to your marriage. You need to walk the walk.

2soulmates,<P>Hey ... Everyone has given you something to think about. Let me tell you my position. my h had 2 affairs, one sexual one emotional. He works with the emotional affair ow. The sexual affair ow still calls him or emails him. She tried to go back to her h, but it didn't work so she is alone and fixing to file bankrupcy. Having said that, I totally feel for her, I don't wish on my worst enemy the pain of divorce or bankrupcy, even it his her own fault. Anyway, I feel sorry for her and so does my h, he had a friendship with her before he had sex with her. We about 2 months in recovery now and I truly believe he is being honest with me about their contact and I truly believe he loves me and nothing more is going on. I have asked him to stop, but he can't hurt her feelings. The ow he works with, she still stops by his office in the mornings with a hello, or she misses him she sends an icq hello. My point is.. I love my h and I know he loves me and is being faithful, BUT ... My heart breaks everytime I see or hear about contact with OW. I don't badger my h or place ultimatums, but I have told him, from a womens point of view, if he can still talk to them like that, then they don't believe he's let go of them and if he can't let go of them, they feel safe and secure, like he's always there for them. I need to know that they know my H is mine now, that he has chosen me. Not just by choosing to stay married to me either, I mean really choosing me. Choosing my feelings over theirs, choosing to make me feel safe and secure not them. See? I have to see the ow he works with at company functions and so forth. We say a cordial hello, it's awkward, but not unbearable. But if he would cut off the one he doesn't work with completely and only talk to other about work related issues, he would have a much happier wife to come home to every day. I believe my h isn't cheating anymore, as I believe you are not, but that security and trust will only come back when you really choose your wife. The Ow doesn't need you as much as you think and if you gave her up, you would see your wife being able to meet more of your needs than ever before. <BR>I am definately not beating up on you, my H sounds a lot like you! Just trying to give you my perspective.<BR>Take Care<P>------------------<BR>Mater<P>

I tried not to respond because it nerves me out how people can act. But now I'm starting to feel for you. I'll tell you why.<P>I have a daughter from a relationship prior to my marriage. My W has helped me from the beginning in straighten it all out, the visitation, the support, the tests She was very supportive of my daughter very much and loved her. She did not say much about me talking to her mother because she was my daughter's mother. Simple. Two years ago I had a one night stand. With guess who? Her. Now she became my OW. It was the one time and I felt horrible. My W found it out 9 months ago. She handled it well and only asked that I stop talking to her so much about our lives and only speak about my daughter. She asked that if I had to pick up my daughter that she be present. This was too easy! But I failed. I didn't have another affair, but I disregarded what my W had asked. I spoke to her too much and would pick up my daughter only claiming I didn't have a choice. Now my W is gone, and I am truly alone my friend, truly. This was not all of why she left but it sure didn't help. <P>Since my W left, I have broken off all unneeded contact with OW. Not just for her but for me as well. She drops my daughter off at my parents before I get off work and her mother picks her up.<P>Make the step, be the man. Do not be the wimp that I was, or you'll be the wreck that I/we are.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

2S<P>No you don't get it! Go ahead and continue a relationship with the OW. Your next post will be "why won't she trust me?"<P>As part of rebuilding your marriage you need to regain your wife's trust, How are YOU going to do that with or without contact with the OW.<P>Recovering Betrayers on this board have had a hard enough time continuing to only work with the OP, but you are different and can go further?<P>You owe it to your wife, the OW and her SO to cut off contact and give your marriage the best possible chance of success, not just a chance.<P>Sorry if it sounds harsh. None of this is easy, don't make it harder for yourself and your wife.<P>Good Luck.<P>

I'm going to be short and sweet here.<P>90% chance of success in having a happy marriage if you follow Harley methods..... <P> 1 follow basic concepts<BR> 2 make a commitment to marriage (both of you)<BR> 3 absolutely NO contact, for any reason whatsoever...... NONE DON'T talk to OW and Don't listen.<P>OR<P>Lessen your chances by not following Harley methods - to the tune of less than 25% by trying to maintain contact and be a friend and work on your marriage.<P>Your choice. Choose No Contact or choose a unhappy marriage.