Hi LIR my H and I went to MC in the early days. I didn't spend hours trying to thnk what to say- as I never knew what the counsellor or my H would say but prayed for wisdom and just handled what was said as it came up. The C asked questions which i always answered honestly. H would talk about his feelings and the C would ask about mine and would ensure that we 'heard' what each other said and understood.

Don't get yourself in a stew- it is not make or break but may help your situation.

Jante

Thank you jante -

I feel a little better today, although every once in awhile the bottom drops out of my stomach.

I think my H is more committed to going this time - last time he was only there on sufferance.

Thanks for your calming words. I hope things continue smoothly for you. I was very relieved to read that your OS has settled down in school - that't very encouraging news.

I am going to reread some of the old posts to me - people have already given me the advice I asked for above, so I am going to go back and read up again. Thanks again and take care.

LIR

Hi LIR,

I am sorry I haven't been around the last few days. Seems like I am always behind these days, I have been away, and when I do get home, I just play catch up.

There are always posts I wish I had done. I wish I could have done one for you yesterday . Mostly to give you faith in your self, not really to give advice.

As I have posted to you I have seen you grow, learn, and adapt to what you have learned at a fast pace. I see someone that really wants things to be better and that has worked so hard for this to come to pass.

By the time you read this post you will probably have finished your first joint C session. I don't know what will happen there, or what the outcome will be for your M or for your emotional health tonight. There are however some things I do know and I would like to run through them again. I know you know them too, but it always helps sometimes to think of them again.

I know you will be all right in the end. No matter what the end of this is, I know you will be all right when it is over. I am as sure of that as I am that the sun will come up tomorrow morning.

I know that you will continue to strive for perfection. I don't think you ( or I, or anyone here) will reach it this week. But I know you will continue to try. You have it in your heart to be the best you can be, and you will continue along the road to perfection.

You have a Father in Heaven that loves you and will continue to help you. He will not fail you nor forsake you all your life. When you need help, you will get help. It may not always come in the manner you expect, and just when you look for it, but it will come.

Last, you will be strong enough to handle the bad. Bad things come to all of us, there is no escape for anyone. I believe you will be able to endure yours and claim your prize one day.

If you are down when you read this, I hope it gives you hope. If you are happy from a good outcome, then it will only confirm what you already know.

We can't lower the temperature of the refiners fire, we can only increase our melting point. This heat is cleansing, strengthening, empowering heat. Besides, you don't like to be cold anyway!

Words cannot express the love that God has for you, he WILL take care of you.

SS

Thank you ss for the encouragement - I don't have but a few minutes, but I wanted to let everyone know that I am OK - the session went reasonably well (although H exploded after we left the session - which was interesting - and I want to ask you a question ss, later, about that - something he said).

The upshot of it was that my H focused on communication as the key area we need to work on.

I said I wanted to talk through what we each thought we wanted from a married relationship - forget the rules and lets talk about US.

H said we needed to talk about communication before we could talk about the bigger issues. We committed to go to 6 sessions.

The counselor kept her hair on, and I thought she was very even-handed.

I can't talk now, but need to come back for some feedback from you ss, on what happened with H AFTER the session - he says he "forgot" the whole conversation we had last week - the one where I "confessed" my failings and talked about the refiner's fire. He said it wasn't important to him that he remembered everything I said, but that we communicated. I said it bothered me that he could forget what I had said and he exploded (although he was not aggressive towards me).

So here we go with the "forgetting" thing again - we have talked about this before, you and I, ss - and I need to talk more about it to try to understand. I will explain more later, when I can.

Take care everyone, and I'm sorry I am not on the board right now. I am thinking of everyone and praying for everyone.

LIR

Hi LIR,

I have some free time tonight, so here goes !!

The upshot of it was that my H focused on communication as the key area we need to work on.
I believe communication is a good starting place in one way. As I have read through thousands of posts, it seems that when the point is reached that both want to communicate about improving the M then progress starts. It is a lot of work to see real improvement because it means changing ourselves. Often the WS is not up to the work so they run away with the OP and their life stays in a rut they never get out of . From things you have said about H I don't think he realizes the hard work part right now. I think he still believes ( at least part of him, this is not a slam on him - just so you know) that if he communicates in just the right way, you will come over to his way of thinking. What I have found is that both of us are 1. Right about some things, and 2. Wrong about other things.
My W has had to change many of her positions, I have had to change many of mine. Communication did this for us.

There have to be rules. Absolutely no anger when feelings are communicated. We all have reasons for our feelings. Sometimes there are good reasons, and sometimes there are bad reasons. But these are OUR feelings and unless we get more data that changes them, they are valid for us. When I say bad reasons, I am suggesting with more facts, and hearing the others point of view we can change these feelings. Here's a simplified example.
Why don't you ever make broccoli for dinner?
I thought you hated it!
No, I like it, that one time I wasn't feeling well, so I didn't eat it.
Oh, now that I understand, I'll make it more often.

Often our feelings are based on isolated incidences that don't accurately reflect the big picture. We call these misunderstandings. Different perceptions about the same event. Communication helps us identify these and fix them. From what I can tell, these happen in all marriages.

I said I wanted to talk through what we each thought we wanted from a married relationship - forget the rules and lets talk about US
The bottom line is ( or at least it seems to me) that you want to know if he holds views that you can never live with. If so, no need to do all this work. I also think I am missing something here, possibly you want to hear from him that he wants you, I know that would be important to you.

We committed to go to 6 sessions. The counselor kept her hair on, and I thought she was very even-handed.
Does H agree with this part? It is probably important to know how he sees her now, after other things you have reported him to have said about her.

AFTER the session - he says he "forgot" the whole conversation we had last week - the one where I "confessed" my failings and talked about the refiner's fire. He said it wasn't important to him that he remembered everything I said, but that we communicated.
To me communication means we learn about the others feelings, wants, and needs so we can better meet those needs. Part of communication means remembering what the other says or the exchange does no good. Even having said this, I often still forget - but it is getting better as I come to understand my W.

I still think that sometimes I hear her say something but my mind processes it this way: " no, she couldn't have said that, it is so far out that she couldn't really have said that. She must have said something else, and I just heard it wrong."

My W does this too sometimes. Here is an example, but I reveal some of my personal quirks.
I have a favorite brand of tuna. I take it on camping trips and sometimes for lunch to have with a salad. Usually I buy it with my own spending money because it costs more than our food budget allows. Once, I gave money to W and showed her the can and asked her to get more exactly like it. I showed her the can so she could get that exact kind. She came home with a different brand and I asked her why. She said " that's the kind you showed me." We went back and forth about it for longer than we should have. I was really wondering how she could think I showed her something else. She finally told me I was wrong, there was nothing I could do to convince her otherwise, and that I was trying to blame her for my own mistake. Further more, she said that we had never had the brand in our home that I was suggesting. A light came on in my head and I picked the can out of the rubbish bin and showed it to her. It was as I had said. She maintains to this day that she really thought she had seen another brand's can in my hand and has no idea how she could have made this mistake.

The point in this is that this happens on both sides. She can tell stories on me about these same things. THEY CAUSE REAL PROBLEMS IF THERE ARE NOT RULES FOR COMMUNICATION. There has to be forgiveness and love to work through them. Right now you both are dealing with things like this and are both convinced you are in the right. Usually there is no can in the rubbish bin, and so both end up resenting the other. Sometimes we just say "I disagree but I still love you and that is more important than being right about this." Now, having said this, you have to know it is true of the other person for it to work, that they really do love you and want to work it out.

I said it bothered me that he could forget what I had said and he exploded (although he was not aggressive towards me).
By now there should not be a problem in the WAY you say things, so I have to think he was in the wrong. One of the things I hope he can agree with is that you are both entitled to your own feelings and the other shouldn't get angry when they are expressed. If you have your own broccoli example perhaps you could use it on H to show how misunderstandings happen, and to show that talking about them may take months ( not all are as simple as the broccoli ) We do see things so differently that sometimes it's months before we can understand the others position.

If he forgot, then he forgot. This may be the truth. You have to accept that part, and not be angry. You can be hurt, because what you say should be important to him. So, you are hurt, and you express that. These are your feelings, and they are valid, so he needs to accept that.

Dr Harley is right when he says that when the feelings of romantic love return, most of these things take care of themselves. If he felt that deep love for you, he wouldn't get angry, he would express remorse that he had bothered you. If you felt them for him it would mean you could easily forgive him for his memory lapse. I do understand that it is some of these things he does that prevent you from feeling this love for him, just wanted to bring this to your mind again.

I know I can't fix anything for you, and I know you never finished your thoughts. I did the best with what you gave me because I had time to post to you tonight. Just wanted to give you some things to think about.
Still praying for your success.

SS

<small>[ March 08, 2003, 11:52 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Hi ss!

I'm glad to know that your wife's health is getting better now - I read that you said she is getting better slowly. Thanks so much for your comments - you have a lot that is relevant to say, and it does help me sort out my thoughts on things that happen between us. I have a little time today, and then I hope to be able to get back to post on Wednesday - my H will be away Tues eve, Wed and Thurs - an elderly relative died and he has to go away and take care of the funeral. I and the boys are staying at home. A positive note is that he will be keeping our 2nd counselling appt Tues eve, and then leaving straight after that - so he has decided that it is important enough to keep the appointment and he has not used the need to travel as an excuse to get out of going.

That said, I'd like to go over some things that you might be able to help me understand.

I believe communication is a good starting place in one way. As I have read through thousands of posts, it seems that when the point is reached that both want to communicate about improving the M then progress starts.
So this means we could be at the beginning of some genuinely useful work?

It is a lot of work to see real improvement because it means changing ourselves. Often the WS is not up to the work so they run away with the OP and their life stays in a rut they never get out of . From things you have said about H I don't think he realizes the hard work part right now. I think he still believes ( at least part of him, this is not a slam on him - just so you know) that if he communicates in just the right way, you will come over to his way of thinking.

Yes, this is what I am feeling afraid of - the indications are that he is impressed that I am "confessing" (his words) to behaviour that I recognize has damaged our R, that I have taken responsibility for these things and made concrete efforts to change myself. But I still have no indication that he recognizes any of the problems on his side, or the need to change. I sense his desire for better communication is exactly what you said - so that he can convince me that his position is right, and so that I will accept living his "way of life".

There have to be rules. Absolutely no anger when feelings are communicated. We all have reasons for our feelings. Sometimes there are good reasons, and sometimes there are bad reasons. But these are OUR feelings and unless we get more data that changes them, they are valid for us.
Often our feelings are based on isolated incidences that don't accurately reflect the big picture. We call these misunderstandings. Different perceptions about the same event. Communication helps us identify these and fix them. From what I can tell, these happen in all marriages.

First of all, I don't think my H gets the concept that there are rules to be adhered to in communication. I grant that he may have a right to feel angry - his anger is valid. I have always refused to accept that he has a right to express that anger in a way which is aggressive, disrespectful, threatening, abusive or violent towards me. I think this is a hard concept for him to grasp - he can't separate his feeling of anger with his sense of entitlement to express it in an explosive way.

And what you say about misunderstandings arising out of differing perspectives of the same "sequence of words" or events, is very relevant to us. This is the very nature of the conflict between us and I will illustrate it with two points.

First, during the session, we took turns, with the help of the therapist, stating what we thought we wanted to gain out of the six weeks we felt we could commit to. He said communication. I said I wanted to get a better idea of what each of us wanted out of a R - exactly for the reasons you stated - I still have the feeling that what he wants and what I want are something different, and I want to know what he REALLY wants, instead of assuming I know, and being mistaken. He then asked why I thought things were going better between us. I had the uncomfortable feeling of having been asked a "test" question and that he was waiting for me to give him the "right" answer. The therapist asked us both to consider this question and both try to answer it for each other. He said "you first", so I said that I didn't know, but I thought the desire was there for us to try to communicate. He said "go on", still waiting to hear something he felt I hadn't said yet.

I then said something totally honest. I said I thought one reason we were getting along "better" was because I was not asking any of the difficult questions, that we were not discussing any of the difficult issues, and that I was keeping myself under "very tight control".

H was immediately upset with this response. It was not the "right" answer he had wanted to hear and he took exception to what I said. He said that was not right, that I was now going off on a tangent, and that in fact, we HAD had a VERY good conversation the week before about "difficult issues", but I was now denying that any of that had happened at all. He said the reason we were going forward slowly was because we HAD started communicating about some of the difficult issues. When he said this, he sat forward in his chair and zeroed in on me, staring at me, with his mouth pinched up tight and angry. It was at this point that if we had not been in the counselor's office, he would have exploded at me, and there would have been an ugly scene with him yelling at me.

I felt so tense that I started to cry silently under the pressure of his gaze, but I kept control of myself and didn't blow. I trust my therapist and I know that she did not intervene because she wanted to see the dynamics between us, but I knew that she would not let him hurt me. He sat back and I said "This is the kind of misunderstanding that happens between us."
This is a perfect example of us looking at something from differing perspectives. But in H's view, I invalidated his perspective, by saying that we "weren't talking about anything difficult". That made him feel angry because he felt that he had made an effort to draw me out in conversation, and had succeeded. I was not saying nothing significant had taken place. From my "underground" perspective, that conversation was just the tip of the iceberg, and its not that I regarded it as insignificant at all, its just that there is a lot more left to talk about, and I STILL have not heard a response from H. I am doing all the talking - he is listening, but not telling me what he thinks - its still not a dialogue yet. So that is the first example.

The therapist then took over and asked me if it was true that we had had a good conversation about difficult issues, and I said yes, he was right, that we had, that I had not meant that nothing like that had taken place, I had meant that I was still keeping a lot inside myself. But I agreed with my H that we had started to communicate about some difficult issues and that it had been a positive conversation which I had felt "good" about. The therapist then said that I had "owned" the fact that I had made a sweeping generalization in saying that we were not talking about "any" of the difficult issues, and turned to my H.

She then asked him WHAT we had talked about in that conversation. It was at this point that my H sat back and said he didn't remember specifically what we had talked about. Inside, I was "gob-smacked" that he could say that - I could not believe that he could have actually forgotten EVERYTHING that was said. I do not believe that he did actually forget. I think he just didn't want to play her game. This is him all over - evasion, wriggling, turning any which way to avoid having to divulge either what he thinks or feels or what someone else wants to know. He did the classic number and turned to me again. "Why don't you go first and say what you think we talked about?" The therapist assented, so I went back over what had been said in that conversation - I said we had talked about OS, and how my H felt that OS had a loss of esteem for him, and about what I had "told" OS and why and he possible effect that had had on OS, which H was very concerned about. I then said I had told H my "angry reactions" were a conscious decision on my part not to allow him to treat me badly without a fight, also that I had decided when we had children that I would never let my children see me being treated badly by him without putting up a fight - I thought it was better for my sons to see their mother fighting back than allowing herself to be beaten down. But I took responsibility for my behaviour, and I listed the things specifically that I felt were destructive and that I had tried to change - name-calling, any physical violence, shouting, sarcasm, threatening to leave, making demands. H sat and listened in silence. This took awhile, and our time was almost done, then the therapist turned to him and asked him if he could repeat back to me what I had just said. H said he didn't want to do that - that he was "meditating" on what I had just said. He agreed that that WAS exactly the same thing I had said in our previous conversation. She again asked him if he could say back to me what I had just said and again he refused. Then he said to the therapist that he didn't see why he had to do that, he was still taking in what I had said, and anyway, he had to say that he thought that since I had had 6 months with her, that she was bound to be biased in my favour. The therapist said that she did not think that was the case, but that she understood how he could feel that way, and that she would endeavour always to listen to him and give full consideration to his concerns. H let it drop at that and it was time to quit.

Now, this is the second point - what happened after the session shows how different our perceptions are of what is actually happening WHEN stuff is being said.

My perception of the therapist was that she was very fair and impartial - she has an impassive face, and I now realize that she is very well-trained not to allow her own feelings to show, or to react to other people's anger. She must have recognized the anger in my H, but she was respectful and totally non-antagonistic.

When we were walking back to the car, he let his anger out. He practically spat in disgust at how she had "asked me to repeat back to you what you had just said, like a f**king schoolmistress! I won't be talked down to like that. I hate talking about our problems to a stranger - do you understand that!?" he said angrily to me. I said that asking you to repeat what the other had said was a standard technique used in couple counseling when couples have communication problems - because often one partner hears something different than what the other says - that was all it was and I was sure that was all she was doing there. But he was still explosive. In the car on the way home, I said "I do feel that I have to say it DOES bother me that you said you forgot what we had talked about the other night." That's how I put it. And he exploded again - he said "What does it matter if I remember or not what you said word for word? I don't care if you do have a memory like a trap, I don't! "

And this is what got me - he started yelling and said "You don't understand why I'm angry, I realize that, well, you don't understand, do you?! You're IMPLYING, without actually saying it, that I'm worthless, that I'm second-rate, because I can't remember!"

I kept my cool and I said "No, I am NOT. I did not say you are worthless. I did not say you are second-rate."

"So I'm putting words in your mouth?"

"Yes, you are. Those are YOUR reactions to what I said and that is not what I am thinking."

We left it at that, but it was very illuminating for me.

First, I think he "forgot" because he does not want to confront the issue of his own abusive behaviour. When he is reminded of it, he tries to avoid it any way he can - he certainly does not want to repeat back to me what I said because he would have to say articulate in his own mouth his own abusive behaviour. Second his perception of the therapist is stilted by his defensiveness. And third, anger is what comes boiling to the surface - this seething rage - but underneath the seething rage is the sense of inadequacy - "worthless" and "second-rate" are words I would NEVER in a million years use to describe my H. But they are there, in his own psyche, and he has taken on board himself that SOMEONE thinks this of him - I think this is the sense of worthlessness pounded into him by his parents, which he quite rightly reacts against with anger. But its there in a nutshell - he feels persecuted, and angry and all that anger is mis-directed towards me.

I know this is long, but it helps explain my feelings -

The bottom line is ( or at least it seems to me) that you want to know if he holds views that you can never live with. If so, no need to do all this work. I also think I am missing something here, possibly you want to hear from him that he wants you, I know that would be important to you.Yes, you have articulated it perfectly.

If he forgot, then he forgot. This may be the truth. You have to accept that part, and not be angry. You can be hurt, because what you say should be important to him. So, you are hurt, and you express that. These are your feelings, and they are valid, so he needs to accept that.

Dr Harley is right when he says that when the feelings of romantic love return, most of these things take care of themselves. If he felt that deep love for you, he wouldn't get angry, he would express remorse that he had bothered you. If you felt them for him it would mean you could easily forgive him for his memory lapse. I do understand that it is some of these things he does that prevent you from feeling this love for him, just wanted to bring this to your mind again.

Yes, I am not angry that he says he forgot - I am not even really hurt. Its more that I am concerned about WHY he forgot, or if he really did forget. I tend to think he didn't forget - he was just trying to avoid talking about it again. And he does forget a lot of things - sometimes I am hurt, most of the time, it doesn't really matter to me. I still don't see any sign of remorse, but H is a very proud man, and maybe he feels it, but it will take a lot for him to admit it to me.

He has been gradually more and more affectionate this week. I have been very sick in a certain way. I have scar tissue in my lungs from a pulmonary embolism I had 6 years ago, and since then, I suffer bouts of pleurisy where this scar tissue gets inflamed. I can still work, but I get very tired and it is impossible to lie down to sleep as the pain is excruciating. I have had an attack, the first in two years, which has been ongoing for three weeks now - it seems like this inflammation is travelling around the lobes of my lungs in sequence - it went down my right lung, and I thought it was getting better, but last week, it travelled into my left lung and is now travelling up it - I am praying it has almost run its course now. I have been sleeping sitting up for 2 1/2 weeks now, and that is NOT fun, but I am managing with extra rest and painkillers. H has been good about it - helping to make dinner. Although, at first, he was resentful - I got mad then, and said so, and he has been kind ever since. The other day he said "I am really sorry you are going through this." - I said "I know, its OK" - he said "I am TRYING to tell you that I am SYMPATHETIC, but I don't know how." I said "I know, I appreciate it." We have been hugging each other quite a bit.

And that's about it for now. Thank you for listening to this all, ss - I know it is long, but I take comfort from your words.

What I am thinking is that if you want to reply to this post, then I will let that be that last post on this thread, then I would like to let this thread sink back into the ether, and when I need to post, or if you want to find out how I am doing, I will start a new one, OK? I am still afraid of my H finding this thread. But I value very much what you have to say to me.

I think I am doing OK. I have some ways to go, but I feel like a stronger person in some ways than I was a year ago. I am less confused, have a better idea of what is acceptable/not acceptable, am more in control of my own behaviour, have a better idea of how to communicate in a non-confrontational, more positive manner, but I am also less willing to compromise.

Please don't feel pressured to respond right away. Take your time - I know you are a busy man. I hope your wife is getting better, again - give her my best.

Take care,
LIR

<small>[ March 09, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

I don't know if I am doing you much good lately, It seems hard to reply in a timely manner. Please know I care.

Don't have much time tonight, I think I can get to this tomorrow.

Hope things were acomplished tonight - good things.

SS