I know I've been away a while, and I read your tag line, Spacey. But I don't see where you state what Plan you're in.

Don't mean to sound like a simpleton, but can you please illuminate me on your MB Plan status before I comment on your thread.

Thanks ....

Lv,
Jo

Okay, strike that last request, Space.

I see you've been in Plan B since August this year.

What I would say is that email to your wife from a friend is meaningless. Even tho you're certain you have re-constructed what your wife's side of the email might be, you really don't know. You just don't.

I understand your hurt and anger over the email, but throwing in the towel and requesting or bringing up D should never be done in reaction. And I believe you are still in reaction. I have been there and made so many of the same mistakes, so I do know how you're feeling.

If what you want is D Space, then go for it. But if you don't want a D, stay in Plan B and avoid all this contact, direct or indirect. Protecting yourself from the emotional rollercoaster so you can think clearly ..... clear enough to know if a D is truly what you want and not driven by reaction to anger or hurt.

If you decide a D is the only route to take and you're not doing it in reaction to a hurtful recent event, you can walk away without any regrets.

Lv,
Jo

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong>At the risk of sounding non-MB-ish ... is it really a loving thing for the BS's to keep lowering integrity or behavior standards in order to accomodate WS's needs? If true love means wanting what is best for your loved one .... is it loving to endure continuous and relentless hemorrhage of integrity and/or standards?

Just thinking ....

Pep</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree, we can't do that. And there are other considerations for me too. My W had another A 15 years ago...back then we did not address it "properly", there's ZERO chance of anything even remotely as stupid as that happening again with me! If I cannot "feel" that we are in a TRUE recovery, or headed to one, I ain't playin'...what's the purpose? So I can deal with another one in 5 years?! Thanks, I'll pass...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CSue:
<strong>Space,

You are so right about your standards of marriage being higher. I feel the same way. That is one promise I made to myself after d-day. Things will never be the same because I won't let them.

I bet if you look back prior to d-day; like me you realize that your needs weren't being met either. Mine sure weren't. Funny H has really had to struggle with making sure he meets my needs now too. It's been an interesting process because until MB; he just assumed my needs were the same as his; and according to him he was doing a good job meeting the needs he thought I had that mirrored his.

My point of all this is you deserve a much better relationship than what you've had. It's going to be hard to unlearn what we have through this process; and I certainly hope we don't! CSue</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We can't Un-Learn what we've learned...our standards are higher after a year+ of learning, understanding, therapy, MB, books, etc. etc.

And OF COURSE my needs weren't being met either! I wasn't happy either, I was just not as unhappy, I guess. According to all I've learned, I could very easily have been the WS...never crossed my mind, but if it's a matter of needs being met, it should have!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>Okay, strike that last request, Space.

I see you've been in Plan B since August this year.

What I would say is that email to your wife from a friend is meaningless. Even tho you're certain you have re-constructed what your wife's side of the email might be, you really don't know. You just don't.

I understand your hurt and anger over the email, but throwing in the towel and requesting or bringing up D should never be done in reaction. And I believe you are still in reaction. I have been there and made so many of the same mistakes, so I do know how you're feeling.

If what you want is D Space, then go for it. But if you don't want a D, stay in Plan B and avoid all this contact, direct or indirect. Protecting yourself from the emotional rollercoaster so you can think clearly ..... clear enough to know if a D is truly what you want and not driven by reaction to anger or hurt.

If you decide a D is the only route to take and you're not doing it in reaction to a hurtful recent event, you can walk away without any regrets.

Lv,
Jo</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me Jo, this is not coming about based on the email. The email, if anything, was the straw that broke the camel's back...and not because of anger or hurt, but because it indicates, along with the other 50 indications, that there is no real desire on her part to seriously work on our M. I mean if "pity" EVEN CAME UP as a possible reason for staying with me...heck, you can figure it out! I mean the kids, money, sex, status, whatever, but PITY?!?! what kind of a future could that possibly have?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
Believe me Jo, this is not coming about based on the email. The email, if anything, was the straw that broke the camel's back...and not because of anger or hurt, but because it indicates, along with the other 50 indications, that there is no real desire on her part to seriously work on our M. I mean if "pity" EVEN CAME UP as a possible reason for staying with me...heck, you can figure it out! I mean the kids, money, sex, status, whatever, but PITY?!?! what kind of a future could that possibly have?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm going to argue with you on this Space, and I don't want you to get mad at me. Okay?

If you would have never run across that email, would you still be wanting to escalate this to a D? The point I'm trying to get across is that Plan B is designed for this very thing .... NO CONTACT = NO LOSS OF LOVE.

You are participating in contact, whether it be direct or indirect and your love bank is now what I would consider in the RED.

Now you're adding all the transgressions up with the most recent one on the top and very P/O'd or hurt or angry or whatever you want to call it, and it's justified to feel that way. BUT, you are deciding on a VERY important decision based on reaction. That is not how this should come about. Your decision to broach the subject of D should be done in resolve .... peaceful unwaivering calm yet sad RESOLVE. And I don't believe you are there.

Jo

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

((((( SC )))))

I don't have any valuable advice but to say follow your heart. Only you know what you are feeling and what you are up against. I'm still hoping and praying for you and your wife and although I may not be full of wisdom tonight, I want you to know that you have my support, caring and understanding. God bless you and your family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
I'm going to argue with you on this Space, and I don't want you to get mad at me. Okay?

If you would have never run across that email, would you still be wanting to escalate this to a D? The point I'm trying to get across is that Plan B is designed for this very thing .... NO CONTACT = NO LOSS OF LOVE.

You are participating in contact, whether it be direct or indirect and your love bank is now what I would consider in the RED.

Now you're adding all the transgressions up with the most recent one on the top and very P/O'd or hurt or angry or whatever you want to call it, and it's justified to feel that way. BUT, you are deciding on a VERY important decision based on reaction. That is not how this should come about. Your decision to broach the subject of D should be done in resolve .... peaceful unwaivering calm yet sad RESOLVE. And I don't believe you are there.

Jo</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fair questions, Jo. (No offense taken!)
Here goes; 1st, I had made up my mind from the start of Plan B that it would not go beyond 3 months. Many reasons, too many and some private to discuss here. And three months is in 3 days.

2nd, My Plan B, based on many factors, including knowing my W and her quirks, was "special". Unless I was willing to take major financial risks, I had to still support her financially more than a textbook Plan B would call for, (Besides, there's no legal separation in Texas), and unless I wanted to further damage and hurt my kids, NC was impossible. So I did the best I could under the circumstances.

3rd, I met with her and had a serious R talk last week for the first time since Plan B started, and during that talk I was convinced we were going nowhere (or had gone nowhere since dday).
4th, I have a possible overseas position I'm going to look at on the 13th, and I cannot possibly entertain that without either A) my whole family moving with me, which I will not do unless I'm pretty certain we're headed to recovery and they agree, or B) divorced, so I can make the decision on my own. I cannot possibly move overseas and leave things as they are here...in limbo and requiring my financial assistance.

That email only further confirmed that things are still very, very far from where they should be if there's to be an extension to plan B or some other arrangement.

If you read my threads you will see that I have been a very, very cautious and careful MBer, giving this every benefit of the doubt, consulting with steve before acting, not making precipitous decisions. Heck, I plan A'd until a year after DDay, when EVERYONE was slamming me for not being in Plan B months ago...I've been pretty careful, and pretty unemotional about this whole thing.

Space,

Please don't leave me hanging. I worry because I know how much you must hurt. You must know I really do.

When I was going thru this, my H said horrible things to me and about me. He told me to go find someone else to help me with my cancer treatments, that I was an inconvenience, and on and on. I was in constant reaction, and hurt & anger were my best buddies. But now, 1+ years after the D, I see that my H saying those unbelievably hurtful things were words said in his addiction. I mean honestly, I didn't marry a monster, altho those words were monster-like.

I guess my point in sharing this is, they (WS) do and say really stupid things and Harley designed Plan B for us to be protected from those stupid acts and words. So we can maintain what love we have left for them.

You're not doing a good job of protecting yourself from them, Space. You need to do a better job of that.

Lv,
Jo

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>Space,

Please don't leave me hanging. I worry because I know how much you must hurt. You must know I really do.

When I was going thru this, my H said horrible things to me and about me. He told me to go find someone else to help me with my cancer treatments, that I was an inconvenience, and on and on. I was in constant reaction, and hurt & anger were my best buddies. But now, 1+ years after the D, I see that my H saying those unbelievably hurtful things were words said in his addiction. I mean honestly, I didn't marry a monster, altho those words were monster-like.

I guess my point in sharing this is, they (WS) do and say really stupid things and Harley designed Plan B for us to be protected from those stupid acts and words. So we can maintain what love we have left for them.

You're not doing a good job of protecting yourself from them, Space. You need to do a better job of that.

Lv,
Jo</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're probably right, Jo. I know you are, but remember that we all have to do things within the constraints that we have; if I could have done everything perfectly, my W may never have had the A in the first place, but I did the best I could with what I had and what I knew; and with all my love, devotion, and the sacrifices a husband makes for a wife, and a father for his children. But it wasn't enough, or it wasn't the right kind, or the right something.

Then, when the A came to light, again, I've done the best I can with what I have and what I know. At first it was awful, then I learned about MB, and it got better, then I counseled with Steve and it got even better, but even Steve gave up on my W! She was a brick wall! I put off sending the plan B letter for weeks after I left based on his pleas to let him have another crack at her, the forum was on my bee-hind like I was some sort of heretic!, and my Plan B was designed with certain constraints that were unavoidable...it's part of the reason I hesitated SO much to even GO to plan b, but again...the best I could with what I had.

And now it's the same...I can't change things, I can't control everything the way I'd like to. I've been out of permanent work for over a year...I can no longer afford to keep doing what I'm doing, and if making a living means overseas, then overseas it'll have to be. If texas had a legal separation, I'd probably uses it, but we don't...divorce must be filed for that...

Lord help me, I have never loved someone as I love her, and I have never spilled so many tears. I have loved her since we were 14 years old, nearly 30 years ago...and I have done all that I have been able to do...

In the end, Jo, things happen as they should, and although I don't understand it or even completely believe it, there's intervention from above, and things happen for a reason; at some point I must surrender to a higher power, and let things happen as they must, as the divine order calls for them to happen.

In the big scheme of things, what a small and insignificant thing is SC's broken heart? Of what possible consequence are my tears?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>In the big scheme of things, what a small and insignificant thing is SC's broken heart? Of what possible consequence are my tears?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably your happiness doesn't come from her, SC. I now realized that I could and I did make my WW's happy but I do not beleive that she is capable of making me happy. With this A , it is even worst. Time will tell ... it is our responsibility to manage the time that have given to us. Live, Love & Learn. As much I love my WW, I know I will find someone that will care, protect & cherish my love for her. I know it wouldn't be w/ my W.

-rh-

Geez, Spacecase....I'm truly sorry that you are having to go thru this.

I'm not gonna offer any advice, other than to agree with Pepper...

What does Space both NEED, and WANT? I, too, am of the variety of "fish or cut bait". My feelings after going thru my situation, is that the "purgatory", as you put it, can be the largest LB to us while in Plan B.

I'll do my best to help and support you in whatever you decide to do. You, my friend, have truly EARNED the right to make it, and be right in whichever way that is.

Boo

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by redhat:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Spacecase:
<strong>In the big scheme of things, what a small and insignificant thing is SC's broken heart? Of what possible consequence are my tears?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably your happiness doesn't come from her, SC. I now realized that I could and I did make my WW's happy but I do not beleive that she is capable of making me happy. With this A , it is even worst. Time will tell ... it is our responsibility to manage the time that have given to us. Live, Love & Learn. As much I love my WW, I know I will find someone that will care, protect & cherish my love for her. I know it wouldn't be w/ my W.

-rh-</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks RH; CLEARLY my happiness does not depend on her or come from her. Trouble is, she thinks HER happiness should come (or should have come) from me...

But I am OK; I now know I will be happy and fulfilled in my life, whatever and whomever life will bring. Thank you for your kind words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hcii:
<strong>What does Space both NEED, and WANT? I, too, am of the variety of "fish or cut bait". My feelings after going thru my situation, is that the "purgatory", as you put it, can be the largest LB to us while in Plan B.

I'll do my best to help and support you in whatever you decide to do. You, my friend, have truly EARNED the right to make it, and be right in whichever way that is.
Boo</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks HC, I appreciate the support. How are you doing?

Space, I havent' nearly enough time to read through all your responses, but I will tell you that it doesn't surprise me ONE BIT that your wife is playing the victim and vying for the role of martyr if she stays yadda yadda yadda. That's good ol' fog in its normal state. Been there done that...and it wasn't pity that brought me back. I got off my high horse and woke up and smelled more than just the coffee....your wife isn't there yet. Maybe things are too easy for her... Anyway, I hope you reconsider the depth of whatever discussions she's having with anyone who will listen to her....most people haven't got a clue and her "friends" response shows that. Take care!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Thanks HC, I appreciate the support. How are you doing? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm doing rather well. I believe that BigSis would say the same. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I've often said that I would like to go back 20 years or so and know what I know now.

Little did I know that I would get the chance. That's the approach that I'm taking. Although it isn't the view that I had preferred, it ain't all that bad from here.

Not to sound conceited or anything, but the exW can't measure up now.

And I won't settle for anything less.

Boo

<small>[ November 05, 2002, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: hcii ]</small>

Hi Space ~

I have to chime in here and agree with Jo that you are reacting, and really still involved in the 'dance'.

Have you talked to Steve lately? Maybe run this by him before you take the leap?

I don't really think you should hang on any longer, I agree she's getting alot of mileage out of wringing her hands and crying poor me to her girlfriends.

The kicker is though that Pepper had the best question: What does Space need and want? You see, I think that the decision to divorce should be based on what you need (which is the direction you are moving in) instead of what she'll do about in response (which I see you waffle back that way sometimes).

I don't think you "offer" her a divorce. You file or you don't. She should not get a say in the matter. If you arent ready to file, then you shouldn't talk about it at all.

I 100% agree with BR ....

file if that's what you want .... if that is NOT what you want ... why discuss divorce?

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hcii:
<strong>I've often said that I would like to go back 20 years or so and know what I know now.

Little did I know that I would get the chance. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds very, very good! But pray tell; how'd you manage the 20 year regression!?!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Dear Spacecase,
I've been following your posts for a while. You know that we, WS do not control the outcome, just ourselves. You did it well and for a while. You are a caring man. Who knows for sure what future may bring - look at some recovery stories.
You prepared yourself to handle it well and receive the happiness you deserve and yearn for.
I still feel scared myself many times, yet I do notice the progress plan A brought me and I am getting closer to plan B with less panic I had just a few months ago. We can't make WS act to fill our wishes. We can forgive, improve ourselves and hold our arms open. We cannot blame ourselves if WS chooses not to take this invitation.
I feel your pain because of the difficult/nonexistant communication with your W.
It is her choice and IMHO, loss. I don't get it why some of the WS refuse to pinpoint and discuss the real issues. Even if just for bringing closure.
FBOW