</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BrambleRose:
<strong>Hi Space ~

I have to chime in here and agree with Jo that you are reacting, and really still involved in the 'dance'.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe some, I agree. Perhaps I've enabled her indecision. A lot of things have "conspired" for that to happen, some out of my control.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Have you talked to Steve lately? Maybe run this by him before you take the leap?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. Haven't spoken with Steve in months. Not much to talk about, frankly. He gace up on her and said that unless SHE initiated there was nothing else we could do...so....that's that, I guess.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't really think you should hang on any longer, I agree she's getting alot of mileage out of wringing her hands and crying poor me to her girlfriends.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't quite get you here...you think I should...do what?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The kicker is though that Pepper had the best question: What does Space need and want? You see, I think that the decision to divorce should be based on what you need (which is the direction you are moving in) instead of what she'll do about in response (which I see you waffle back that way sometimes).</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, my position is fairly simple, I think. I won't put up with the current situation any longer, meaning I've waited enough, and am not willing to wait any more. So, unless a "miracle" occurs and she TOTALLY reconsiders her position when I propose divorce, then divorce it is...all I said was that IF the miracle came to be, I'd take it. Not that I was proposing divorce for the "possible miracle". I'm ready (and in fact need to) move on...with or without her.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think you "offer" her a divorce. You file or you don't. She should not get a say in the matter. If you arent ready to file, then you shouldn't talk about it at all. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess "offer" may have been a bad choice of wording...I will let her know that I am proceeding with divorce, and whether she wants to sit down and negotiate, or she wants our attorneys to do it. IF when I say that, the miracle happens...we'll see. If not...it's over.

Space,

This was in Redhat's sig line on another post. It represents the only thing we have control over. I have done this in my other situation and was 12 years down the road when I looked back to make an assessment recently. It gave me peace. Truly I believe it says it all -

"Give your absolute best such that you could look back 10 years from now w/ no regret."

Blessings, CSue

LLama Hhugs to Spacecase -

I'm so sorry to see the recent turn of events. You have my support 100%. Although my separation, Plan A and Plan B were much shorter than yours, I eventually asked for the D because I knew it was going nowhere, my Love Bank was in the red and XH just wasn't committed to even trying.

You have been one of the most patient MBers here and I always value your input. No one here can know exactly how you feel or what you should do, because all of our situations are different. I truly believe that only the BS can know when it is time.

It is a painful time, but I'm here to say that there is a light at the end of the dark tunnel. Continue working on you - it will only make you a better person, father, XH, etc. Continue loving your kids. How are they doing through this, by the way?

Know that you have lots of friends and support at MBers.

Let us know what we can do.

Llama

<small>[ November 06, 2002, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: llama ]</small>

Thank Llama; I appreciate the heart-felt support.

Precisely my kids are one more reason for not perpetuating the "purgatory" any longer. They have suffered quite a bit, and the twins (turning 17 TODAY, by the way!) are not doing very well.

My younger S doesn't want to talk about it, is angry and very short, and has told his brother and sister that he "doesn't want to know" unless it's a major development. Very angry "at the world". And my D, although not as bad, cries every time she sees me...you can see the sadness in her eyes.
My older son, now in college, appears to be OK. He's at least not in the middle of it day by day, so I think that makes a difference. But he's not happy...that's for sure.

It's time.

Good luck Mr Space. Keep us updated, we'll be thinking about you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by hope4future:
<strong>Good luck Mr Space. Keep us updated, we'll be thinking about you!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks H4F,
I appreciate it. Went out to dinner with my W and the twins tonight for their birthday, and we had a wonderful evening! We laughed all night and it was the best evening I've had with them in a long time.

My W said she wanted to talk to me so we'll see what's on her mind...

Space,

I'm along with Chris when I say that 3 months of Plan B is not enough to "heal" you, and you appear to care too about your marriage right now to have me encourage you in divorce.

The email you saw is irrelevant, and Steve would probably tell you so. What you want is your wife to return to the marriage completely remorseful, willing to do whatever it takes, and complete with a set of new marital skills to meet your needs---and that's not going to happen. If she's willing to return and work on the marriage under the guidelines that you need (no contact, willingness to participate in counseling, etc)---that's enough. Whether it's for the kids, whether it's pity, or whether she has a terminal case of ingrown toenails and she needs you for medical insurance---if she's willing to do the work, that's what you need to look at.

Don't worry about motivation. That comes later. She may think that it's pity driving her back, or guilt about the family situation. Your job in recovery is to show her a new marriage which she's having a hard time imagining right now. This can often happen in difficult affairs (it did in our recovery). Don't sweat it.

Divorce when you're really ready. When you're done. When you don't care anymore. And when you've given yourself an additional couple of months to make sure that you feel the same way.

Call Steve if you have any doubts.

Chiming In...

I'm doing rather well. I believe that BigSis would say the same.

WOW....is he ever doing rather well!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I see the man that I knew he always was, the strong self assured person that I am lucky to be able to call my Brother. That person went missing for awhile and I missed him terribly.

I Love you Boo.

On another note,
I am sorry that things have spiraled down for you SC. I hope that you find strength within yourself to do whatever it is you need and decide to do. Do what is best for you, only you know what that is.

All My Best to you.

Always,
committed

SC:

Why is it we seem 2 be going through similar 2rmoil at about the same time?

I was going 2 start a new thread of my own, perhaps entitled something like "I want a DV, talk me out of it!", and maybe I still will, but thankfully, perhaps, I've got 2 much 2 do at work 2day 2 have time 2 post such a thread...

...but the perceived need is there, nonetheless. Unfor2nately.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong>Space,

I'm along with Chris when I say that 3 months of Plan B is not enough to "heal" you, and you appear to care too about your marriage right now to have me encourage you in divorce.

The email you saw is irrelevant, and Steve would probably tell you so. What you want is your wife to return to the marriage completely remorseful, willing to do whatever it takes, and complete with a set of new marital skills to meet your needs---and that's not going to happen. If she's willing to return and work on the marriage under the guidelines that you need (no contact, willingness to participate in counseling, etc)---that's enough. Whether it's for the kids, whether it's pity, or whether she has a terminal case of ingrown toenails and she needs you for medical insurance---if she's willing to do the work, that's what you need to look at.

Don't worry about motivation. That comes later. She may think that it's pity driving her back, or guilt about the family situation. Your job in recovery is to show her a new marriage which she's having a hard time imagining right now. This can often happen in difficult affairs (it did in our recovery). Don't sweat it.

Divorce when you're really ready. When you're done. When you don't care anymore. And when you've given yourself an additional couple of months to make sure that you feel the same way.

Call Steve if you have any doubts.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think anyone's ever put it quite as clearly or succinctly as this, K. And I appreciate it.

And I'm certainly not going to argue with this, as there would be no logical argument against what you've expressed. The ONLY problem I have is in my ability, from a financial and practical standpoint, to improve my own living conditions while not damaging my children's (living with her), in order to maintain a longer Plan B, such as it is.

And the only other point I'd make, is to say that when one does not see much (or ANY) "progress" on the part of the S to reach even the "minimum" requirements (as you described them) for attempting recovery...then what? Indefinite Plan B?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by committedandlovingit:
<strong>Chiming In...

I'm doing rather well. I believe that BigSis would say the same.

WOW....is he ever doing rather well!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I see the man that I knew he always was, the strong self assured person that I am lucky to be able to call my Brother. That person went missing for awhile and I missed him terribly.

I Love you Boo.

On another note,
I am sorry that things have spiraled down for you SC. I hope that you find strength within yourself to do whatever it is you need and decide to do. Do what is best for you, only you know what that is.

All My Best to you.

Always,
committed</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bless you, BigSis!

HCII; you are a very lucky man to have so close and wonderful a supporter as BigSis. I can "feel" the love there between you, and it is a joy to see!

I don't mean to pry .. but are Spacecase and Committed truly BIO Bro and Sis?

Jo

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Resilient:
<strong>I don't mean to pry .. but are Spacecase and Committed truly BIO Bro and Sis?

Jo</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no, no! It's Committed and HCII that are bio bro-sis, not SC!

I just call her "BigSis" because it's shorter than Commitedandlovingit, and the initials, CALI, are confusing due to the "real" CALI...anyway...

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Resilient:

"If you would have never run across that email, would you still be wanting to escalate this to a D? The point I'm trying to get across is that Plan B is designed for this very thing .... NO CONTACT = NO LOSS OF LOVE."

I have 2 chime in here and say, right the heck up front, that I don't "believe in" plan B, precisely because I don't believe this is what's happening that makes "getting away" from the WS necessary, assuming it ever is before a DV. In my case, it's taken me a while (sorry Pep!), but what hit me recently is that my love for my WW hasn't wavered one bit, my RESPECT for her has fallen off drastically, maybe a long time ago. And I was so darn busy watching my "love bank" that I didn't even realize it.

And since I've become a firm believer in unconditional love BUT conditional Marriage contracts, I fully expect that I will continue 2 love my W even if we decide that the only road open 2 us is DV. I gained nothing by stopping contact with my WW when I tried plan B in July, except 2 curtail our already rather pitiful communication (and enable further communication with Rat Meat, though I have no idea whether she contacted him any more or about anything personal during that time).

hcii:

Now I'm flabbergasted (and it takes a lot 2 gast my flabber!). I thought your "big sis" was "committedandlovingit" and MY big sis was "BigSis." ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>SC:

Why is it we seem 2 be going through similar 2rmoil at about the same time?

I was going 2 start a new thread of my own, perhaps entitled something like "I want a DV, talk me out of it!", and maybe I still will, but thankfully, perhaps, I've got 2 much 2 do at work 2day 2 have time 2 post such a thread...

...but the perceived need is there, nonetheless. Unfor2nately.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I didn't see this earlier! Must be divine intervention, 2L!

Ok, to clarify the BigSis confusion:

The REAL "BigSis" (usrname BIGSIS) is 2L's sister.
The "BigSis" I was referring to here, (because HCII refers to her that way), is Committedandlovingit, who is HCII's big sister.

Geez! I don't even HAVE a sister! LOL!!!!

But I DO love the 2 BigSis's as if they were! I'd kill for a BigSis of my own to support me in this!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
Resilient:

"If you would have never run across that email, would you still be wanting to escalate this to a D? The point I'm trying to get across is that Plan B is designed for this very thing .... NO CONTACT = NO LOSS OF LOVE."

I have 2 chime in here and say, right the heck up front, that I don't "believe in" plan B, precisely because I don't believe this is what's happening that makes "getting away" from the WS necessary, assuming it ever is before a DV. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chiming back:

For me, I was in Plan A for something like 10+ mos. Good one too, H was really coming around and noticing my changes. He could actually SEE me again, you know what I mean? But my H's OW got a boyfriend and somehow <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> he found out, and we were back to square one, maybe even worse than square one. Wait, no maybe about it, it WAS worse.

I started to get tired and angry, and I WAS losing love for him. Not to mention my health was suffering. So Plan B was implemented, I did counsel with Steve Harley before doing so. He recognized the same as I, my love bank was depleting FAST.

After going into Plan B I felt enormous relief. And as time went by, my anger started to soften toward my H. Hence that small balance of love left.

I guess it (Plan B) just either works for some people or it doesn't. But from being here 2+ years, the results I've witnessed have been somewhat similar and consistent with most MB members.

Lv,
Jo

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

I suspect that Plan B works best when the OP is in the same town or nearby and the WS is either forced or coerced into trying to create a "real" life with the OP, etc.

In 2L's case and mine, where the OP is far away and inaccesible, maybe it's not as effective in that sense.

And in 2L's case in particular, I suspect the environment at home with his W is not as bad from the "trigger" standpoint as others (like mine) were, so there are, I'm sure, differences that determine whether Plan B is logical/viable or not, depending on the circumstances.

I know it helped me get away from the pain of the active affair in my face, but in other ways it also hurt me...

Case by case I think things are very different.

Space,

I know you probably have, but have you read the "Misapplication of Plan A" by Distressed thread?

If you haven't, it is very helpful with discovering pitfalls in implementing Harley's Plans. I bumped it up for you and others, just in case.

Lv,
Jo