</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actions speak louder than words...if he is disrepectful with you about something...cut the contact off...walk away, say I'm sorry I have to go...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree wholeheartedly with ^^ark^^. If he sees that you will not tolerate his disrespect (without you being disrespectful), he will eventually realize that if he wants any relationship with you, it will have to be one based on mutual respect. If he doesn't want to have one, then you have some serious thinking to do about whether you want to be married to a person who is no longer the person you married.

If he sees that you will no longer tolerate his disrespect, he just MIGHT start to see that he does not have you wrapped around his little finger and that you just might be giving up on the M. It MAY be enough for him to decide to either work on rebuilding the M or to stop playing games and divorce once and for all. Hopefully it will be the former.

Michael: While I sort of like the simplicity of just stating it in one sentence like that, I'd like to do it more thoughtfully.

Ark: Indeed I like the idea of using I statements, and making this more about me and not just about him anymore.

Ark and TMCM: Yes it's all about me not allowing him to treat me with such disrespect any more. I am going to cut the contact off unless he chooses to treat me differently.

I sat down this afternoon and wrote a letter to him, filled with "I" statements, reminders about how I feel about him, what I want, and what I've demonstrated to him, and I told him that I can't go on like this, being simply his sexual companion and nothing more, and that he talks to me in a way that doesn't show me respect. I will let it sit for a while, and read it over a few times before I send it to him, but I think it is necessary. I think telling him this in a letter is more powerful than just telling him I want some respect and to be more than his sex toy. Also, he will have something to read over and over again and think about.

My only hurdle is he claims to still not have read the xmas card and note I gave to him, so who says he'll read this carefully thought out letter? Maybe I'll just have to email it to him instead of writing it by hand, and then he'll be more likely to read it.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Michael: While I sort of like the simplicity of just stating it in one sentence like that, I'd like to do it more thoughtfully.

Jen</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, sorry I did not mean for you to say that literally. But, I think the idea expressed by what you said before is enough. That's all I was trying to say.
Michael

<small>[ January 12, 2003, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: MichaelinDallas ]</small>

Hi Jen,

Glad you are back. I think you are headed in the right direction. Actually he is leading you there. In the beginning I thought an intimate connection might make a difference with him over time...and it might have only he is not acknowledging that. You are totally right to set up these boundaries. I know it is difficult because you want to express that you are remorseful and accepting of the responsibility in terms of the past. If you think it appropriate express to him that the good things about you that he fell in love with still exist. And that through all of this there are better things about you he has yet to realize.

Someone made a comment about negative attention and I think that was very wise. He is trying to make this only physical by treating you badly, belittling you, etc. If the cards, the letters mean nothing to him he would have read them and made light of them. He refuses to read them. A person who doesn't care doesn't act this way...not to suggest he is acting properly he is not...it is just you matter to him even if he battles with himself about it. I think he fears to be in your presence longer than his escape sessions because he would have to face more truths than he wants to right now. He fears being in love with you again.
I know that feeling. I came to a point of being so depressed, so low that I didn't wish for happiness anymore. I wished to feel nothing. My husband is totally reformed of this I am sure, however I am afraid to be completely in love with him for fear of how intense my love for him is. I fear being happy because I know what it is like to have your worst fears come to fruition. It is the fear of living with the one person with whom I have shared the best moments two people can share and knowing that that same person has brought me to the brink of drestruction. You fight believing in happiness and love because you fear the desolation of the void.

This is no excuse for horrific behavior but I think this is what he is doing. In my own small ways I have done the same thing to protect myself. Not abusive the way he is being but I have limited myself in small ways to giving back to my husband, it is something that I struggle with daily. I do not go out of my way to connect with him because I know that I will deepen my bond with him and also deepen my fear of losing that bond.

I am sharing this with you not to disuade you in any way from demanding respect for yourself but to give you hope. It is clear to me he loves you deeply...he feels it is a weakness of his. If it was just about sex he could be playing you alot worse. (Not that he is justified.) But he could play sweet with you to get more...no struggle...he knows it wouldnt take more than a simple kind word from him to melt you yet he still cannot do it. Why? I think because no matter how much he tries he cannot make it just sex. Everyone knows he could be free, without any real reprisals...he could be free of the reminder he says you are. Deep down he doesnt want to be free. But he definitely doesnt want to be weak. He feels power by being your redeemer.
If this was all just about sex and you were nothing to him he would have no reason to lash out at you. He could save himself the emotional rollercoaster, hook-up with one of his groupies and be done with it. He is lost. The way he is going now is never going to help things. Once again, consciously or subconsciously, he is pushing you to be the impetus of change in his life. One thing is clear to me though. He loves you deeply. So much so that he fears it. It is preferable to him to live in the safe world of "nothing matters" than face things head on. It is not easy but it can be done. Everyday I allow myself a little bit more happiness. But I know if I would have maliciously tried to destroy my husband I would have destroyed myself. His actions harm you both. You are very strong and very loving to help him stop by setting up your own boundaries.

I learn very much about my own actions by contemplating on your situation. Thank you for your openness and honesty.

ayslyne

Wow, ayslyne, reading your perspective on this situation really causes me to stop and think. You being on the other side, the BS side, but being willing to listen to my side and then share your perspective with me is VERY helpful. It gives me insight into what my H is going through, and I am very thankful for that!

It is even eerie at times what you say you feel/felt, because it's exactly how my H is/has been feeling. For example, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I fear being happy because I know what it is like to have your worst fears come to fruition. It is the fear of living with the one person with whom I have shared the best moments two people can share and knowing that that same person has brought me to the brink of drestruction. You fight believing in happiness and love because you fear the desolation of the void. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This sounds pretty much like how my H is feeling, even though he didn't express it to me directly like that. I would venture to say he is feeling that way.

I have begun reading a book about abusive men. His behaviour, even before my affair, even before his current treatment of me, is described in the book. I have read so many sentences and scenarios in there that describe him to a T. He would seem to fit the description of an emotional abuser, but I know better than to assume this is definitely true, especially since I have only just begun to read this book. But I do think that it promises to help to give me more insight into his thinking. (The book's called "Why does he do that?" by Lundy Bancroft.)

Again, thanks ayslyne for your perspective. Thank YOU for your openness and honesty!

Jen

I just realized I still didn't get a reply to a question I was hoping WAT would answer:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't stop thinking about what would happen if you did a reverse 180. We hear pretty dern frequently about BSs who seem to become pompous when their WSs start off humble and remorseful - opposite of the "norm." We've already discussed this, right? He's being an a$$ and rubbing your nose in it BECAUSE HE CAN! He's got the upper hand. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If we've already discussed this, it's been a while. I'd appreciate a refresher if you can.

Yesterday, if my H had called or showed up, I wouldn't have answered the phone or the door. I didn't want to see or talk to him. Today I find myself missing him again, and shaking my head at how my infidelity has simply destroyed us, and laid out an insanely long course that we'll have to travel down to recover from this mess I created. I talked to one of my H's friends on the phone last night briefly, one who was in my H's place (was a BS), but wasn't married at the time, his longtime GF cheated on him. He said he thinks it takes about 2 years to get over this kind of thing. He said he thinks my H is still punishing me, that's just how he works (this friend has known my H since they were boys).

Relax, I'm not starting another EA. This friend had asked me to ask my H why he wasn't returning his calls. I simply called him to tell him my H's answer, and we talked for a little longer after that.

I know why I keep allowing my H to have sex with me, even when he's not very respectful about initiating it, it's because I miss him so much and want to reassure him in whatever way possible that I still love him, and he can still meet my needs in terms of SF.

But, I know I need to draw the line, set boundaries for myself so I can live with myself. "eyespy"'s sig line quote is on my mind right now: "When it doesn't feel right, it usually isn't."

Sigh,

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

^^^bump

WAT?

Hi Jen,

Wow. You stay away for a week or so and wow!

I am truly sorry for what your husband has said. I have followed this since the first day you posted and have read each post up to this one. I am sorry that I suggested at one time to have SF with him as a means of having some type of intimacy with him. The way he has acted and treated you - well, I was wrong.

Reading this also, has had me look inside and answer some tough questions. I can see how your husband feels somewhat, because I have been guilty of that in the past. What he is doing is emotional abuse and it sounds like it is destroying what you have inside. It's too bad that his bells arn't going off telling him that he is building within you, walls that may never come down. Resentment and bitterness are tough enough to get by, but the way he is acting is just down right abuse.

I struggled during the year and a half that my wife wouldn't give me the time of day. You on the other hand have done a model remorseful wife. Willing to do what it takes to make your marriage stronger than it was. I know that it does cross my mind that she didn't tell him no why tell me no. I figured that was natural. I still struggle with comparisons.

Maybe what needs to be done is that you do get your divorce. Maybe he needs to see that you are worth having. He doesn't seem that he will ever get that your marriage was rocky and he contributed to it just as much as you before your affair, maybe more. I won't ever excuse what you did. He is or has had an EA with at least one, possible two women. He was on dangerous ground before your affair happened. He just digs his hole deeper. He needs to want to change also and I just don't see that happening. I just see someone being manipulative. I know, I've done it. It's not pretty!

Is this the type of person you want to be a father to your children? To teach your daughter that this is how you treat a woman and how to be treated or to your son that this is how you do it? Maybe he needs to be asked this!

If he doesn't see you in his future, then maybe it's time to make it official. He may come around and may not. You started off as friends dating. Maybe starting completely clean is the way to go. That way both of you can look back and say that was then and this is now. If not, Jen, you seem to be someone that can offer someone quite a bit. I have no more sympathy for him and feel nothing but pity and anger towards him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hi Jen,

Just thinking of you.

ayslyne

Jen - sorry I've been tardy.

My earlier thoughts were just an observation that when the BS is "enabled" to punish the WS, they seem to take the opportunity - at least for a while or just for a moment - as opposed to a BS who doesn't get the opportunity to "punish" the WS because the WS runs and denies.

Disclaimer: This observation is not based on any research or book reading - just from reading here on this forum which is as anecdotal as you can get.

Your H is clearly punishing you and you are taking it. That said, I believe the majority of BSs would soon get the anger out, embrace the humbleness of a WS such as you, and start to pick up the pieces.

Your H is taking his victim status too far.

So my earlier idea was just a shallow analysis relying on a simple deduction that if what you're doing isn't working, try something else. This together with the "enabling" observation above led me to suggest that you consider doing the reverse 180. STOP meeting his sexual requests, STOP Plan A'ing him, STOP enabling him. Write him a reverse Plan B letter and cut him off. Maybe then he'll do a 180.

For all us MB purists, I realize that Plan A and Plan B are not really applicable here, but I believe the logic has some merit here nonetheless. Another disclaimer: I am NOT a trained/educated counselor and this may not be a good idea. The affair dynamics are LONG over and I and other "infidelity" MBers are out of our jurisdiction. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Jen, I don't see that you've got anything to lose by cutting him off. You've got PLENTY to lose by continuing with the status quo - your self respect and your happiness.

JMHO - I hope you get some second opinions.

WAT

Oops, I didn't check for recent posts this morning before I started a new thread, "Is he trying to drive me away?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Jen, I don't see that you've got anything to lose by cutting him off. You've got PLENTY to lose by continuing with the status quo - your self respect and your happiness.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WAT, it's kind of funny, because most of what you said has already crossed my mind, I agree with it completely, and I am the point where I think I need to cut him off. Thank you so much for your perspective.....it helps to confirm what I've already been feeilng.

I'm undecided as to whether I should actively cut him off (write him a letter, or go over to the house and tell him), or just keep saying no to him when he calls, not letting him in when he shows up at my apt. (I did that once this week, I just didn't answer his phone call or my buzzer - he always calls first then buzzes). The problem with a letter is he refuses to read the one I gave him at xmas, so why would he read this one? (For now, I'm just going to say no if/when he calls to ask if I want to go over and have sex. He hangs up as soon as I say no anyways.)

Please take a peek at my other post, it's an update of sorts.

Jen