Although it is common for WS's to be angry at the BS, the most extreme anger seems to be seen in male, midlife WS's in long-term apparently very stable marriages. The anger is directly proportional to the guilt - I found that when my H was especially angry once the affair began, it was always because either he had done or was about to do something about which he felt guilty, or because the OW was giving him a hard time about whatever it was he had decided to do.

I do not think that this is really a "control" issue. Severely depressed people commonly have trouble making decisions. If you try to back off, he won't be the one making the decisions - the OW will. Some of my biggest regrets involve my not standing my ground early on when he (read she) made decisions that impacted the children. Sometimes I think that when the OW gave him orders concerning under what limited conditions he could see his kids, he actually wanted me to fight it. If the BS gives an inch, the OW will be the one taking a mile.

I am not at all sure that I agree that there is a lot you could do to make things worse - apart from various extreme actions, most of which are illegal, I don't think you can. I have called him only once in 4 years at the OW's house - sometimes I think that that was completely the wrong course of action and it made it too easy for them, and it would have been better to been a thorn in her side (while remaining within legal limits).

I am convinced that Plan A, or even treating him with any kindness, is the wrong thing to do - it just results in an increase in guilt, and conseequently an increase in his anger - plus it allows him to walk all over you.

I think in most cases depressed men are NOT looking for a woman who treats him more kindly. They want someone to tell them what to do. Often these men have been largely passive, though sometimes explosive. Typically, the OW is not a meek, mild-mannered person who will bend to his command, but very aggressive.

Hi Mimi,

I just wanted to state that I strongly disagree with much of what Nellie posted. I also think that much of it goes against Marriage Builders principles--which are very successful for thousands of people.

Please read more in the info pages of this site and/or wait until veteran MBers post to you before planning a course of action.

Weekends are slow around here so try to be patient and, in the meantime, read, read, read.

Take care Mimi

Mimi, please excuse this minor threadjack for one post--thanks a lot (See Pepper, I learned what a threadjack is!)

Nellie,
I hope I didn't offend you by my post. I don't profess to know as much as I need to know about applying MB principles, so when it seemed to me that some of what you said went against a proven method for success I suggested that Mimi read the info pages.

End of threadjack

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nellie1:
<strong>.............I am convinced that Plan A, or even treating him with any kindness, is the wrong thing to do - it just results in an increase in guilt, and conseequently an increase in his anger - plus it allows him to walk all over you.

I think in most cases depressed men are NOT looking for a woman who treats him more kindly. They want someone to tell them what to do. Often these men have been largely passive, though sometimes explosive. Typically, the OW is not a meek, mild-mannered person who will bend to his command, but very aggressive.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, this is one of the reasons why plan A does not always work. In the cases of conflcit avoiders who hook up with agressive/controlling OWs (especially OWs), plan A tends to enable the A. Attached to this is the anger of the WS. State of confusion reigns high and BS bashing ensues.

If any of these factors seem familar, plan B may be the wiser and safer course. It brings relief we never knew we needed. Most of the BS in these cases were where the W was the main giver and the H was the primary taker. In many of those cases the W was more accomplished than the H and in some cases, the H thought he was in a personal race with his W but the W did not know there was a race.

JMHO,
L.

Mimi,

I was thinkin'..... if the condo is NOT in his name, could it be that the OW is behind this and had the utility company call your house as a show that she was trying to make you kick him out??

PBR tried that one. We had a few calls from her and I tried real hard to kick the WS out. See there was contact between them and when it wasn't enough for her, she'd call me. Leaving those 3rd party messages.

Well, I did my part, I kicked him out but guess what? He didn't want to go to her and that made her MAD! More LBs from her and I just sat back and watched. I even said "hey, I did my part, I kicked you out, you slept on the street......now tell her to stop leaving messages at my house and you (WS) tell her why sleeping in your truck was better than sleeping with her!"

Just a thought. These OWs are a crazy bunch!

If there is truth to that, the WS should be willing to prove that to you. Otherwise, ask him why he is @ home if there is power on under his name at the other place. U know the OW could have posed as his W.... YUCK!!!!

L.

L.

He continues to INSIST that he did not have the power turned on so MB it was her. He is a real penny-pincher and would not like the idea of paying for a penny extra and some lights are literally on. So I don't know. He's definitely at home this morning. I'm thinking about the posts.

My WS abhors aggressive, controlling women. Some of our friends have wives like that. I'm thinking that she is more the passive type that he can control. However, I do think that he is depressed so its a little of both theories. I'm thinking.....

I welcome your feedback. Thanks!!!!

Mimi,

Its good to listen to other folks experience [thats what we are all here for anyway], however, when it comes down to it, the Marriage Builders principles have the best track record. Nellie has certainly had her share of experience, but I am sure she wouldn't claim to be as qualified as Steve Harley. [I would hope not anyway] When she does reach that level, she can open her own clinic, start her own website, and lead hundreds of folks to marital bliss just as Harley has.

Until then, please just keep doing what Steve Harley told you to do and stick to MB principles. The worst thing you can do right now is love bust or "take control" of a situation that is out of control. Just hang in there and ride this out without taking any rash actions. You are doing great.

I have been talking a lot to my WS this morning weighing the different viewpoints.

The MB principles definitely work best with him. He has responded positively to my statements: "We have to work as a TEAM" (Steve Harley told me to say this verbatim) and "I know I can't CONTROL you" (especially suggested by WAT). He also responds positively to me speaking to him in a nonemotional tone. I have been assertive in asking about the CONDO. He continues to insist that he hasn't committed there.

I have been talking about the financial aspects of him leaving. In the face of reality, my penny-pinching WS, cannot argue with how difficult maintaining two households would be. I keep saying I can't control you, its your decision. He said, "I know its not the RIGHT thing to do". I also keep saying its a CHOICE you are making and I can't STOP YOU. THANKS, YOU GUYS! These are words straight from you.

He DOES NOT get angrier when I am NICE. He definitely responds more positively to PLAN A behaviors and seems to want to provoke me into anger so he can feel justified in leaving. I'm sticking to my guns. No emotion from me!

Will keep you posted.

He's still home but looks like he's planning on going out somewhere. I can't control him, RIGHT?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong> I keep saying I can't control you, its your decision. He said, "I know its not the RIGHT thing to do". I also keep saying its a CHOICE you are making and I can't STOP YOU. THANKS, YOU GUYS! These are words straight from you.

?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi,

You are doing great. Your words throw the ball back into his court and make him totally accountable for his decision. By not love busting you have deftly avoided the trap of making him defensive. You have given him NOTHING to feel defensive about, so instead of trying to figure out ways to defend himself from you, you have him considering the wisdom of moving.

He is a rebel without a cause, hehe.

You are definitely doing a good job of using your HEAD and not letting your emotions mess you up. That is a very HARD feat in such an emotionally charged situation. Keep up the good work!

<small>[ January 11, 2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: MelodyLane ]</small>

I'll give you a 40 something, man's opinion on this because you can't figure us out, like we can't figure out women. Most men in the locker room want their women to be by their side, keep their figure, perform sex as they always did, and not once a month. Buy sexy night wear, to their liking, and treat them with respect. The reason i find men wondering is one of the above is not being met. If I get it at home , why do i need some other women to give it to me. Theres a saying" A man needs what a man needs". Do yourself a favor. Look at old pictures in your relationship and find what made you two happy together. Think back! HOw has that changed and what can YOU do to relive some of those feelings.

Don't be stuborn and say I can't do that anymore. because you can. I know some of you women will beat me up on this subject. But Most all the men i know and talk to my age long for the beginning days of their marriage.

He in turn must do the same. Look good and keep himself to your liking, both physical and emotional and you may find yourselfs in each others arms again. good luck.

wokeup,

You make a good point, but I don't think that's the issue here. Not trying to speak FOR Mimi, but I think her H is very attracted to her physically. However, he has relegated all the heavy thinking to her for so long that he doesn't feel like a man anymore. One of his needs is admiration and thats what he gets from the 25 yr old.

Even so, while having an attractive spouse is very important to many men, it is never an excuse to stray. There is no circumstance that justifies shabby, immoral, unmanly behavior.

The Good News (I THINK):
I mentioned my session with Steve Harley to my WS and he listened! I thought he would be totally against TELEPHONE COUNSELING. I told him that Steve wants to talk to him and he asked me if I have any other info. about the the program. I gave him a copy of the article on how well telephone counseling works. I hope that he is not playing a game with me to easily get out of the house today. He seemed sincere. He likes the MB principles. I read him some info out of HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS last week that he agreed with.

He has called me since going out, saying "What's up?". That's different!

BAD NEWS:
I'm having a problem with my 16 year old son. Any suggestions? He thinks I'm letting my WS "emotionally abuse" us by allowing him to make demands after "being out of the house for 3 weeks" (that's how my son refers to his wayward ways). He says he has difficulty holding in his anger at WS and feels like he can't respect him.

My son has actually been doing a good job in complying with my WS's requests. However, my WS does continue to try and provoke him and is not giving notice of his improvement. I've tried to help my son understand that his father is not himself but he is very much hurt about all that has been going on here.

Any thoughts would be appreciated!

Mimi, what that poor boy must be going through! Boys are SO protective of their mother! I really don't have experience in this area so I hope some other MBers will weigh in here. My first reaction is to NOT protect your WS from the boy's anger, but your H might just use that an excuse to do more harm. But your boy is right, there is not much there TO respect right now.

Hi Wakeup:
I think Melody is right.

I think a major source of ambivalence and conflict for my WS is my continued sexual/physical attractiveness to him. I play it up alot and continue to do all the seductive things that he likes even painting my toenails (this is true confessions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I still go to the gym and work out with him. He likes that too. I have a great figure and dress well. He likes to watch me dress in the morning. I have a high sex drive which I've since figured out has been a problem during his affair. He's had to figure out how to please us both-probably very demanding and confusing. Or maybe fun for him. I don't know. Enough said. I do not think this is our problem. He said that their relationship is not about "SEX".

I agree with Mel. Its about admiration, undivided attention,his need to get away-have a diversion and his need for CONTROL. He wants to have the thrill of being with a dumb woman who does not know anything. However, he does still want me to TAKE CARE of him like a MOTHER such as help him understand that separating MAY NOT be financially feasible. However, he does not want me to be SMARTER than him. I think I have it figured out.

Now comes the work and the motivation.

Mimi,

U R doing good!! Now as for your teenager....well he is acting to what he is seeing so you can't chatise him for speaking the truth. What you can do is funnel it in the right direction. Like not do as my dad does but take this bad thing and learn from it, make it right and if possible help your dad. We do this in many aspects of our lives, even at work. So why not teach our children to make lemonade out of life's souriest lemons!!!

As for H's who 'do not' like controlling OWs??? Well guess what.... what makes you think they don't go out there and do just that? Mine hated controlling anybody....total rebel and like ML said, definitely without a cause.... Now combine that with being in the fog and wha la!! You get a controlling OW worse than any W!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> YUCK!

Yep that is what PBR is a total controlling psyco babble to boot! See they don't do better out there, the general trend is that they do worse and that is why our ride is sooo rough.

I mean, if they really found someone better, it actually would be easier to let go. But when they are making obviously stupid choices, well all our giver and protector instincts kick into full throttle and sometimes we just run 'em over with love. Then we ask... how come you can't see it? Oh yea, we just ran them over with logic and their face is in the dust...... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

JMHO,
L.

My H had leases in his hand (he was going to move out "to explore the OW")- he had gone out with realtors and had found a place. At the last minute though, he backed out. Actually it was providential. A medical test had revealed a potential problem with my health (which turned out to be nothing). We didn't know it immediately because additional diagnostic tests needed to be done. He however told the OW (who'd already precipitately left her H, and was impatiently waiting for my H to join her)- that he could not leave me while I was sick. I believe he was happy for the excuse. I had made it clear that once he left, he would have to tell children, and family and friends would find out. One question is can you create something that could serve as an excuse for your WH to stay? Perhaps the household repairs? Not something you demand though.

With this condo- do you know where it is? Has he signed a lease on it or not? How much is the monthly rent? You could try calling the landlord anonymously and inquiring about the availability of the condo- or have a friend do it. Call the power company and see if you can determine if a bill has been established in your H's name. Pretend you are going to be living in the condo and you are paying the bills- distract them by saying something like my H wanted to know what date he would be billed from.

Continue to discuss monthly budgets. In your state can you get a separation agreement or an order for temporary support?

It's great that your H is willing to discuss Harley with you. If he will talk to Steve even better.

Also, be chatty with him in discussing his situation with you. Be his best friend. You can ask him questions about OW. (But don't insult her). Let him confide in you, his issues with her. Let her be on the outside.

What's my response if he doesn't come home tonight after being so positive today? I know that's a possibility. I'm feeling anxious and upset right now. Said he'd be home by now!!!!

Any suggestions on how to relieve my anxiety right now?

<small>[ January 11, 2003, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

suggestions:

1. If he doesn't come home, there is nothing to say since he isn't around to hear.

2. Anxiety is best handled with doing what calms you down (drowning yourself in a bottle of chablis is not the right answer but a glass or 2 may be ok). Bubble bath. Massage. Breathing exercises. Posting here. Helping another MBer.
Bake..... spend time with my children. Babysat other kids. Work work worked.... (oh yea, I already do that - LOL!!)

These are some of the things I did.

3. Practice how you will react - best and worse case scenario.

4. Know that these anxious momments are temporary but will feel like forever right now.

5. Write in your journal or start one. Many lives were saved when I wrote my journal but lots of damming evidence resides in these hard drives!!! Good stress reliever.

6. Know that your adrenaline will run amok right now. Plan lots of activities if you have the energy.

Ok, that's my quick list.

L.

Thanks for the list, Orchid.

What do I say when I actually see him since he has no reasonable excuse. He's obviously with her!

You guys, this is so AWFUL!!!!

Ok Mimi,

U asked so I will tell you what I did.

1. sniffed the air and say 'something smells funny, what is it?'

2. Give him that look that your inner gut is telling you something isn't right.

3. Act scared of being near him.

The goal is to get him to convince you he is not jeporadizing your M. Make him show his concern for U. Don't get carried away with over dramatizing this. That is why it is important to practice a bit. Stand in front of the mirror and practice. Bathroom is the best place, you can run the shower and no one will hear you practicing!!! Sounds funny but desparate times call for desparate measures.

Be prepared for him to say the worst (he was with her), then if he says less and you are angry, find a way to force yourself to pull your anger down until you can deal with it (I bit my bottom lip - a sign my family has seen several times). I don't have to say anything....they see it and get quiet. I don't say anything either because I know I have to simmer down first.

handle with care....

L.