Shoot - knew there would be difference of opinions here.

Thanks Kily about the "know you can talk if you want to"

Espoir - I don't know if I want to write a letter about dating and happy times. It didn't work before, it wasn't what he wanted. Also, I thought the point of a Plan B letter was about no contact. I certainly don't want to sound dictatorial, and I think you're right about me being a control freak. But I think I need some control right now. If that means that I don't do anything, then I would rather do that, then write a letter opening up again the possibility of dating. I don't want to do that, given that he sees no future for us and isn't prepared to work on anything, and is seeing OW. I see absolutely no point in dating. It didn't get us far when we tried before.

Am all confused in London now!!!

Lisa

I agree with espoir about disrespectful judgments, and would modify those parts she brought up. But remember it's your letter, and this is just my opinion.

In addition to making the DJ adjustments, I would try to make it clear what you want, if you could get your way.

Sadly, I married you for life, but along the way, I let you down so badly that now it really hurts me that you have steadfastly refused to work with me on repairing our marriage.
If I interpret Harley correctly, this is a disrespectful judgment. It may be true to you and I, but he may not see it the same way. How about:
.......it really hurts me that we have not been able to repair the marriage. Or something more neutral that gets across your pain at failure to reconcile.

It feels to me that you gave up on us, perhaps when I needed you the most, and part of giving up is your ongoing relationship with OW. Because of those two things, I cannot continue to have contact with you because it is too much for me to deal with.
I know there is much Irony in my statement, and I can't take back the terrible hurt I caused you, but I simply can't continue to watch the things you are doing as it is too painful for me.

You can probably see why I added that last line.

A wise person said to me, “Most marriages don't end because of affairs, they end because the conditions that led to the affair are not addressed, such as anger, control, independent behaviour etc.” I don't think we addressed some of our issues either at the time or later, as you agreed with me recently.
I don't think I would be specific here, probably I would say it this way ( but remember, I am not you, and it has to be you when it is finished.)

A wise person said to me, “Most marriages don't end because of affairs, they end because the conditions that led to the affair are not addressed.” I don't think we addressed some of our issues either at the time or later, as you agreed with me recently. I would still like to address these things and work on our marriage, I wish we could work on it together.

I do not want to hurt you by not communicating with you, but when I said I didn’t want contact that is what I meant – please understand it is not about being angry, it is about saving the love I still have for you. If you see no other future but divorce, so be it, but this is really not where I would want to be headed. That same wise person said to me “An affair rips your heart out – a divorce crushes you”.

I would probably add one more appeal here, something like:
I still hope for a way for our marriage to work, I wish with all my heart that things were different, and that we were still together and in love. I am still willing to work on it if you wanted to come back and try, but with what you are doing, I loose some of that resolve each day. I hope you change your mind before it is too late, but I know it is your choice.

Thank you for all the fab times we have had, thank you for all the support and care you have given me, thank you for being you. Whatever you do, from the bottom of my heart, I wish you peace, I wish you well, I wish you happiness."
I think this last part is very good.

OK, comments please, bearing in mind
a) H thinks is adamant that he is not WS, but is fine having an R
b) H hasn't worked towards the principles of MB at all.
c) This is pretty much what I told him anyway - there's no new information in there.
d) I'm hurt and uncertain that my future lies with H given his ongoing and terminal reluctance to work at anything!!!!
e) It may not be quite as gushing as you Yanks would make it but it's got to sound real as I would speak to him/write.

Did I gush too much?

Again, take anything useful from all of us, but in the end, you must be happy with it.

espoir may be right, it may make him angry, but if you get an angry reply you can disarm him.

" I am sorry that I made you angry by saying i wanted to work on our marriage, please forgive me. I know I did something wrong, I have already agreed with this many times over. I have also said that I want to go on and repair our marriage and continue to be with you, I hope you got that part too. If this last letter was so hard for you to take, it just tells me I was right to break off contact with you, as continued contact only makes things worse."

Or course, that would be contact.

Oh well, I had better quit, you have plenty to think about.
Thanks for the kind comment, it proves I was right.

SS

OK here's $0.02. I agree with the letter. I agree with the changes described. I do not think that it should be withheld because right now I see you as the BS.

I see the drain on you in your writings therefore I think it's best to Plan B before there is no love left. You are following what I did with my WW, my Plan A produced no results, so Steve H had me go Plan B with Letter in order to preserve that last piece.

SS makes a great part about the Anger management. And quite frankly I haven't read about a WS who received a Plan B Letter and WAS Happy to get it.

Send it. OK that was about $0.04 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hi Lisa.

I agree with the other posters regarding the letter (modify it just a bit and sent it) and I would just like to suggest to you not to use the abreviations BS, OW, WS, H, R, etc. because they just may confuse the hell out of him.

As much as we would like our loved one to be with us, sometimes leaving him/her alone, for a time, may be the best thing we can do. Whatever the outcome Lisa, you'll come out a better person than you were, and in fact you already are.

Lisa-

From what I remember, the plan B letter is designed to accomplish 2 things: (1) affirm your love for the WS just prior to going dark (2) point out how contact with OP is painful for you and isn't acceptable given that R is your goal. From the looks of it, you've got the outlines for a great letter. You've come such a LONG way so don't let those seeds of doubt deter you this late in the game.... you CAN do this! You and your H don't have kids together and you're tired of his ongoing A...Send the letter and wash your hands of it for awhile. All of these question about "chemistry" or whether or not you can forgive a potential A can be put off for now. It also sounds like you're ready for some time away from contact with him so you won't be tempted to initiate contact.....Good Luck!

PS I'd suggest re-wording the following phrases:

"after many sleepless nights endlessly going over where things went wrong"

"Sadly, I married you for life, ..."

"It feels to me that you gave up on us, ..."

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: litchfield ]</small>

Many thanks to you all for your comments. Just to let you know, TMCM, I only put in the abbreviations so as not to use real names here!!! I would put in the real names in the letter.

On re-reading it, I think I used some judgemental phrases, which would probably make H quite angry and I think these need to be changed. But what I do want to get across is that we both have a responsibility to our M, not just me. I also think he needs to be clear about the things that are hurting me right now, and not that I am angry.

I think the other thing is he has been very very clear that he does not want to try and work things out, so I don't want to labour the point about you can come back any time and I'll be here waiting. I think for me, because of the odd situation between both of us, plan B is definitely about holding on to what's left of my love, but not saying I'll be here forever and a day - it's not what he wants. At the moment, I think there would have to be quite a lot of movement on his part about his issues, let alone the ones between us.

Softman - feel free to keep dropping those 4cents in - I appreciate it. CM, well thank you.

Thanks all, I'll take some advice from here, and may come back with draft two, but if not, don't worry, it has sunk in - but that's what's great about MB, you can get some input before you send it off.

Lisa

P.S. Litchfield, our posts crossed thanks. As Espoir pointed out the "Sadly, I married you for life" doesn't quite come across as I wanted!! Yes, I'm ready for a bit of Lisa time.

<small>[ January 21, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Lisa,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But what I do want to get across is that we both have a responsibility to our M, not just me. I also think he needs to be clear about the things that are hurting me right now, and not that I am angry. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't use this letter to educate him. He knows that he will have to do some work. I think the letter should convey: your sorrow for the state of things, your hope for the future, and your need for space from what he is currently doing.

It should not convey: that you love him (you don't, right?), your willingness to wait forever (you won't, right?), or what he has to do (to much to mention, right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

I am thinking it should really be relatively brief.

Lisa, I suspect that your H will come around. He is dealing with stuff inside, but he may well institute contact once this OW is out of the way, and she will be. He does have a lot to learn.

So move on with your life, but leave a place for him as long as you can, that is what plan B is about.

I like the suggestions others have offered.

God Bless,

JL

Lisa,
It is so ironic that our relationships seem to cross the same paths at the same time. i got some really good advice from a friend today, go with your feelings. I made my plan b letter brutal honesty. It was the hardest thing I have ever done but when i read it to my trusted friend he said, "Your husband is a fool if he sees that letter as anything but another second chance for him. If he takes it as a piss off letter he is dumber than dirt. Made me feel better.
Go with your gut instincts sweety. Take the advice you get from everyone here but go with what will bring you the most peace with the least regrets.
I want to see your husband pull his head out of his proverbial [censored]. I want my husband to do the same but you know, if they don't come back to us. Whether we want to believe it right now, we are going to be all right.
I love you sweety, I found a wonderful card I would love to send you. If you get a chance and feel comfortable drop me your address at mcmcfie@yahoo.com. If you don't that is fine.
Keep that chin up.
(((((((((((((((((((HUG))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Layli

Thank you JL and Layli.

Layli, you are right, sometimes I feel I know what I want to do and then I think, oops not sure anymore. I come here for support and advice, which is great, but often opinions differ or goes against what your gut instict says. Sometimes you are right, it is best to let the gut instinct kicks in.

JL - are you joking? Or do you mean it? I suppose the first one is still true (I do love him), but no, I'm not prepared to wait forever, and yes there are loads of things to work on, too many to mention. I am still swinging between sending nothing and this in part due a discovery today....

OK, H keeps saying that OW is nothing, means nothing etc, is just a friendship. His phone bill came today, and I snooped. Sorry, but I wanted to know how much she did mean. What has hurt me the most and beggars belief is that the day he last met with me and came here, that night he phoned her twice after he left. Once at length on her mobile, and then obviously on her landline. I can't believe that he spilled his guts to her about us. I can't believe that on the night, I put my all into trying to make him see how much I cared and loved him, and how there were things we could do that could help us, bring us back together, he goes off and calls her to share with her. He also seems to call her every day and/or text her, and given that they work together, well it's quite cosy isn't it for something that is meant to be so casual? I am sooooo angry with him for lying, I am sooo upset with him. It does confirm his utter resistance to work on us, when he is more involved with her. I can't believe I was so silly to trust what he said.

I also think that the day after we met it became a PA - call it gut instinct, but I thought that at the time. There is a call to her on the Friday night at 5.15pm (just after he finishes work), which I guess is arranging to meet. The next morning there are calls at 11.00 and 1.00pm - are these thanks for a great night call?!?!?!? I think that after that conversation, he would have so utterly convinced himself that our M was over, that it wouldn't have mattered.

He has lied to me and his ESD. He is a cheater pure and simple - yeah, and I'm pretty well qualified to judge I know <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

So what now? Frankly, I have no energy to write well wishing letters. I go back to my original thing of thinking, what's the point, he knows how I feel. As Espoir said, why reward bad behaviour? I can actually file for DV myself. I do not want this man as he is - a man that runs away from his responsibilities and his duties. A man that didn't marry for life, and when the going got tough, he got some totty.

Frankly, there is much here that I have not shared with people, but today I am so livid and hurt, I will tell all. What I found out from XW is that his youngest daughter was 2 weeks old when he walked in announced that he did not love her anymore and loved someone else. He met someone else on the day of YSD's birth. This man that told me what he had done was different - I don't think so for his poor XW and children. Of course, I knew the story, but didn't realise about the timeline.

He lurches from one R to another, without the backbone and strength to stand and fight for what's most important, be it his first W, 4yr old D and 2 week old baby, or me, who he only loved (never loved his first W), loved because we were meant to be forever. Is this a man I want? Is this a man worthy of my love? Is this a man who deserves me, with my shame, my guilt, my apologies, my heartfelt remorse?

I don't think so.....

Sorry for the rant.

Lisa

Hi Lisa,

You sound very hurt and angry-I am so sorry to hear about your discovery. But think Lisa-the hurt is very deep,all BS's feel for you, but you knew he was having an EA, you suspect that it is a PA but there is still no actual proof-have you really discovered anything new-? I learned from constantly re opening the wounds when I discovered new(to me) facts about my H's A, that if it doesn't change the overall fact of the A itself, maybe it is better not to know or think about.

You are angry at present but if you DO decide to send a plan B letter keep it short, and I would suggest phrasing it carefully so as to avoid the accusatory sentences. Lots of " I feel" rather than " you did this". It's really already been said by others.

Finally dear Lisa, I hate to say this as you know it-he has felt all that you are feeling too. I do not believe that the demise of your marriage is inevitable. He is in a fog-heck, he is an Englishman too isn't he? BORN in a fog, some of them.(apologies Nick and Neil!)

Thinking of you ,
regards from down under-Deluded

<small>[ January 22, 2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: Deluded of Devon ]</small>

Dear Deluded

Yes, I found out something new. I found out that on the very night, I offered up my innermost being and soul to my husband, the man who said that he would love me forever, he choose to ignore that, go off, and telephone a woman 15 years his junior (whom he says is little more than a passing acquaintance) and belittle everything that I had done in respect of our marriage and our love.

I am incredibly upset and angry. Also, his hurt, his pain, his absolute brow beating of me, constantly over months (check out some of my old posts), and he left his 2 week old baby, 4yr old D and W, because he was in love with someone else, and that was different? Why was it different, what made it better or worse for them? Why isn't he willing to work on us - because like then, it was easier to run away.

My future with H is very shaky - this is my gut feeling, my instinct. I am not going to sit around and wait for him to come to his "senses", because I don't think I want him even when he has his full senses working. And, it's not just the lying to me, it's lying to our girls, my girls.

Deluded, I appreciate you thoughts and support, but my anger is not just that of a BS, it is caught up with many more things.

Take care friend, I like your new sign off, let us know how you are doing.

Lisa

Lisa, I'm sorry to learn of this most recent discovery. Your H is caught up in a fullfledged affair, and it sounds like he has not been honest about his past- that his previous marriage ended due to infidelity.

Whether you send a (revised) Plan B letter or not, you are right to question whether this man has the "stuff" to make you happy in a relationship. And if dating is too painful or has not been fruitful, it makes sense to distance.

Wishing you strength and courage. You know that you addressed the A, you put a wholehearted effort into trying to recover. Your H is stuck, unable to self analyze, to look at himself, to grow. No one can force him to do those things. You, however are the better person for having done so.

Deluded - I'm not English, just happen to get stuck here. The fog, the food, health system on a third world level, firemen on strike, transportation system on the brink of collapse, terrorists cooking poison everywhere - just love this place.

On a more serious note - Lisa, what you are experiencing right now is the power of fog. In this sense, whatever he says & does has to be discounted. Is it just? Is it right? Is he right? Of course not. Someone on this board mentioned at some point: do you want to be right or married? So arguing the point with him about he did, should have done, why etc etc is not going to make it work. Bigger question though is whether you want to be married. Maybe all that happened recently prevents you from continuing to try, or, you already made your mind up. If that&#8217;s the case, then I do suggest plan B. Wish you strength & luck.

Espoir/Nick - many thanks for your support.

Nick, I guess it's not about being right, it just confirmed the suspicions I had - and that hurt. It hurt that the first person he turned to after I bared my heart and soul and earnestly and openly asked him once again to try and save our M was her, and let's face it, I doubt they talked about the weather that night. It hurts that he continues to lie to me and my SDs, it hurts that whatever I have done to repair myself and our M it wasn't enough.......

You and Espoir are both right about whether this is where I want to be. I think when there are children involved it must put a different perspective on things. H and I don't have those ties, it is easy for him to move on. Let's face it, it still wasn't enough for him when he did have those ties.

Espoir, I did know, but I never realised that he actually met on the day of his daughter's birth, nor that he was "in love" within two weeks. He has berated me no end that my A was physical within 6 weeks.

I'm very sad tonight, as I know the H that can be, who I want him to be, just won't be.

Thanks again.
Lisa

Lisa,
I know that what you have learned has made you sad. I don't think there is any way around this part of our lives. Some things are just rotten to deal with.

Remember that you are still Lisa.
You are still that better person that you have worked so hard to become. You still know much more about life and happiness, and marraige and love.

There are still good things going on in your life, and you have a great chance at happiness. Sometime in the next few days, you will realize that while there is much bad, there is also much good. Count your blessings and pick your self up and live to be happy.
We are all still here, we still care.
SS

Dear SS

Sometimes, you just say the right things. I don't need advice tonight, I don't need to be told H is in the "fog", I don't need to hear that "he'll probably come round". I am grateful to you for just acknowledging my hurt, understanding that, and reminding me that I will be OK, because I know too that I will.

Thank you for caring, thank you for your kind and thoughtful words.

Very sad in London tonight
Lisa

Dear Lisa,

For some bizarre reason, I haven't been able to get into my hotmail account tonight, and I can't figure out why - something's amiss with the "cookies" on the computer after yesterday's breakdown with the ISP.

I know how upsetting this discovery is for you - I think all BS go through something like this. In my case, I came home from my brother's funeral in June '01, found a letter he had written to OW1 two days later, and started looking at the phone bills. I found out her landline and mobile number and realized then that my H had spent the week that I was in America attending my brother's funeral, with OWs family, took our sons - innocently enough, I believe - but that on coming back home from that week, he had spent 45 minutes on the phone with her the following day, which was our 13th anniversary, and then another 45 minutes with her the day after.

I don't believe my H's affair with her got to the physical stage - maybe I'm kidding myself. I will probably never know. What I do know is that the betrayal was profound. You have said that you think you could accept him having an EA. I don't think you could. The dynamics of the betrayal are the same, sometimes worse.

It has also been awful seeing the e-mails he has written about me, and what was said about me by "his" friends, when I have poured my heart and soul into trying to save our marriage, and regenerate the feelings for me that he seems to have lost. I also recognize that I contributed to his loss of feelings for me, and have said so and apologized for the things I did and said to damage his feelings for me, and have tried (and I think succeeded) in changing what I was doing wrong.

What I have learned is that none of this means anything unless he is willing to play ball. I cannot influence or control him by anything that I do or say. Learning this the hard way is teaching me to be myself and to be who I am without worrying about whether or not he will love me for it. Once upon a time, I worried about everything I did, worried that he wouldn't like it, or I would upset him, or how he would react, etc. I no longer think that way. I have found myself out of this terrible experience, and I am still finding myself. I am doing what I am doing now for me, not worrying about whether or not it pleases him - whether or not he will approve.

The reason why I bring this up is because I sometimes see traces of this way of thinking in your posts. You worry about how he will react to what you do or say, whether or not the plan B letter will make him mad, you try to second-guess his reaction. I think you are on the right track when you articulate and carry out actions that are because that is what YOU want - what you can live with, what you can't, what you need from a person, what you don't need from a person. When you can let go of how what you do and say might affect him, then you are really free to be you - and you are a strong person, and growing stronger every day. Strong enough to be someone who values herself enough not to let a man take advantage of her.

All people make mistakes - you did, I did, and your husband certainly did - big time mistakes! - but it is how you deal with your mistakes that tells what kind of person you are. You have shown us what kind of person you are and I, for one, admire you very much for your honesty with yourself and courage to be honest with him. If he is not a person who can appreciate that - well, enough said.

Just wanted you to know that I am rooting for you!

LIR

Lisa,
I understand that you need the "cyber comfort" of a friend right now, and I am here for you as I am feeling my own pain today and wanted it to as I posted ON GQII, instead I had to rehash things I already know and so it goes....

Lisa, you have every right to ache and hurt today because you and I both know, we'll be picking our butts up, dusting off the debris and looking for the way up again, that's just how we have to do it isn't it? Amazing as the internet is, and all the people we share our hurts, pains, happiness through the stories we tell it just can not replace the warm body that is needed right there with you to justify every thing you want to scream from the top of your lungs about. Well, I am as close as this darn screen will allow me to be, know that. Also know that you have done everything HUMANLY possible and we are our own worst enemy, we think we should be able to do more. But right now you need to rest from the inner battle, so you can fight another day. You are worn out my friend, and still having to be the strong one. My thoughts are with you just wanted you to know that.

Hi Lisa,
just wanted to let you know I'm thinking about you. Been offline for a few days so only just catching up.

Don't forget to smile
bowd

feeling better today? do something to pamper yourself - did you try for example the roast chickens at Nando's...? awsome.