T-Z

The timeline I referenced is about my recovery .... the A has to be over before you can begin your recovery.

How the F--- can you be in recovery until the A is over?

You are sad and hurt because the sh*t is still going on. So what if the A is email or phone ?

Pep

TZ,

You are like all of us; in the right time, at the right place, doing exactly what it is you're doing, to learn what you're supposed to learn in this lifetime.

When it is time for you to something different - you will! In your own time, in your own way. Blessings, CSue

Thanks, CSue. I couldn't have said it better. So much of my life right now is entwined with what I have to do at work and at home.

Pepper. Did I ever say I thought I was in recovery? I don't f***in' think so. Personal recovery, perhaps, probably even yes, but marital? Absolutely not. I have to be convinced that my W wants our M as much as I think I do. And I'm not always convinced that I do.

Forcing things to happen because I get impatient: Always wrong. Sorry pb, but that's what I believe. Does that mean that I'll say nothing, do nothing, just let the A continue? No. Is the A continuing? I think so, but that's based on MY definition in this case of what an A is. My W clearly doesn't think so, and THAT's based on rationalization, in my view. So, our M is in a stalemate still. She knows what I need her to do (and I apologize for using "need" above, when I was trying to describe how I can't make demands, subtle but important difference).

I dunno folks. I think I may quit this nonsense. I don't seem to be able to make my point well enough to give ya'all the right picture to be of much help. I'm sorry for that, because I truly have appreciated your help over the past year. A bunch of truly fine folks.

Regards,
-Qfwfq

I am sorry for hurting you.

Truely sorry.

Pep

You only need her to quit if you want to have a marriage with her. If you don't want to have a marriage with her, why hang around? If you are willing to have a marriage with her, but she won't participate, then you have no marriage. Why keep pretending?

You know TZ, I look at the first post of this thread, and say to myself: "His wife is abusing him." If you can't stop an abusive person from abusing you, you need to separate from them to avoid the abuse.

I am a conflict avoider, for much the same reason as you - my instincts when angry tell me to do things that I consider wrong. In trying to "be good" (or at least "avoid bad") I repressed it and got depressed, but never learned to deal with it - or the issues that were making me angry. THAT is a big part of my part of our recovery process - learning how to act when I get angry - to dig behind the anger to the pain, frustration, embarrassment, or fear that is causing it, and then bringing those root issues out in the open without attacking the person causing them. Or figuring out why I am causing them myself, if that is the case. Harley's stuff on the POJA and communication in general has been helpful, as has Gary Smalley's concept of LUV-talk, but it is a struggle to change.

John39 ... I agree.

Pep

TZ -

You're getting a lot of advice/suggestions from a lot of different people. But it's just other people's opinions - you need to filter everything and pick out those things that truly apply to your situation. Only you know what that really is.

You and I are about a year into this thing, both recovering from the wounds of a long-term affair, both still in love with their wives. It's difficult for others to see the 90% of the M that's good and the 10% that isn't.

I've read accounts here of people who have endured far worse than you or I have - multiple separations, restraining orders, pregnancies, etc., and figure if they can survive those things, surely my wife and I can work through our issues. Is it taking longer than I would have liked? Yes. Is it difficult? At times, very. Am I ready to give up on the only woman I've ever loved, the mother of my children? No. I'll fight for our marriage until she shows that she doesn't want me any more. I just don't believe that will happen. I have faith that we will survive and ultimately thrive.

I understand the torment you feel from time to time. I also know it's a cyclical thing - comes and goes. But what you're going through is worth the struggle for now. You believe your wife will one day give 100% of her heart to you, and that prospect justifies everything you decide to do to try to save your marriage.

Hang in there 'til your fingernails rip out. I plan to do the same. Take care of yourself.

But the thing is folks,

We relate and respond to TZ's thread and others threads through our own experiences.

We don't truly know TZ's experience, heck he only truly knows his 1/2 of the experience. His wife holds the key to the other 1/2 of his experience.

Where he asks and it is appropriate to offer perspectives that we think might help; I suspect it's not our place to try to force our solutions on someone else. How can we presume to know what his lessons are in this lifetime?

In fact that is a true example of how we project. Through this thread I was reminded of one of my universal truths. That I am at the right time, in the right place, doing exactly what I am supposed to be doing - to learn what it is I am supposed to learn in this lifetime.

Now that is my truth that surfaced as a result of TZ's thread. Does this mean that my truth is TZ's truth? No! It's all about me! Even my desire to help TZ is about me. Another one of my universal truth's is "You teach what you need most to learn".

So here I am! TZ's thread and how I react, respond is all about me. And he thought it was his thread all about him! LOL!!!

Now for a new analogy (sorry about hijacking the thread TZ - but you and Space are usually very generous with your threads)and since your thread is really about me......heheheh

Walking my usual 3 mile walk today with my Border Collie. We encounter unexpected things/events all the time. I consider it a great walk when I can stay in my meditative state the entire time...oh well! The walk is along a large irrigation ditch which is dry in the winter. My BC sees the ditch as something that can't be crossed year round.

In reality I've seen dogs cross/swimming in it when water flows - dirverted from the Rio Grande for agriculture uses. So let's just say it's a matter of perspective whether or not it is a barrier wet or dry.

What happens next is I hear the omnious sound of a man frantically calling his dog. I know it's a matter of time before an unleashed/untrained dog appears and I'll have to deal with the situation. I have had walkers on other days warn me about 2 dobermans running loose on occassion in that area, so I wasn't too surprised to see this doberman.

I have some knowledge of dobermans so this wasn't a scary situation for me. Sure enough out bounds a doberman - jumping around on the other side of the dry irrigation ditch. I keep walking - BC is about 30 yards ahead of me. BC is relatively well trained and I understand his weaknesses so I felt fairly confident I could control him even though he was off leash.

Owner of doberman was getting more & more irritated because his dog acted as though he didn't exist and instead was keeping pace with my BC on the other side of the ditch.

I consider my choices. My BC is having a lovely time with the doberman and we were getting further away from doberman's owner. I couldn't control doberman, and couldn't guarantee control of BC - I only had control over my actions.

Knowing how BC should respond I called him to me and turned around and started walking back towards doberman's owner. BC immediately responded, coming back towards me and assuming his natural postion 30 ft ahead of me on the path heading back towards doberman's owner. Doberman responds to BC and turned around and started back to his owner.

As soon as doberman caught back up to his owner and was under control I just turned around and headed back down my own path. BC adjusted and fell into his usual position.

Back to my meditative state my lesson here is - I can truly only control my own actions. I know I have influence over some people/animals in my life and I know I have no influence over other's at all.

I did the only thing I could do; which was divert temporarily off my own path and watch the chain of events evolve. Then once the issue wass resolved I simply went back to my original journey - everything OK.

So lesson could be TZ is on "his path", he has some influence with his wife; and absolutely no influence over RM/doberman. He has the ability to influence his wife through his own changes; because she is within his circle of influence. He'll take detours accordingly as life presents them, then he'll simply go back down his path as he intends it to be.

Ok TZ - here's your thread back! CSue

CSue:

I like your metaphor. I want to respond to everyone else, too. I was in a hurry this morning, and dealing with my own feelings last night and this morning talking/snuggling with my W, who is at home with a bad cold...

At one point last night, she asked me what I was thinking about. Hoping to start a convo without an argument, I said "lots of things, actually. But mostly frustrations with unresolved issues with the house and unresolved issues with our relationship." She didn't take the bait and pick up the conversation. She just took my hand and pulled my arm over her for a hug.

This is where I'm at, folks. I know she loves me. I can't figure out why she can't say it, though I have some ideas (like confusion over the past 12 years). I'm not going to try to squeeze it out of her. It's just not my way. I'm not in any agony, though I certainly am not bubbly cheeful 24/7. I still want my M, and I hope that my W still being with ME when she was invited to live with Rat Meat is an indication that she wants our M, too. So... I wait if I feel like I need to and people like SS and JL urge me to; I offer answers to her questions about our R and what I may have learned about M over the past year; I reiterate my boundaries when I feel I need to (and I have, and each time results in an incremental improvement visible in HER behavior toward me); and I keep reminding myself that I haven't "grown" enough to satisfy myself that I can be a good companion to her or someone else just yet, so I might as well keep working on me with her to the extent that I believe I can.

Sorry for getting so tweaked this morning.
-Qfwfq

I wanted to respond to the other posters as well, but I have to run off again!

My W had just called and said one of the workers had left a soda on the oak fireplace mantle, and it leaked and stained the oak. That 116-yr old, 8-ft high, intricately carved oak mantle, probably worth more than I am, was unharmed by the fireman putting out the fire, and a freakin' careless carpenter has to stain it NOW? See? This is the kind of thing that we keep having to deal with WHILE trying to come back together as a couple! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

More later,
-Qfwfq

You're mad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> at Pepper???? go take it out on Mr. Carpenter <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ..... works for me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Pepper:

Gosh, no! I'm not mad at you. You're one of my favorite MBers!

I'm mad at myself. You haven't hurt me. You've offered your best help to me over the past year. It was ME that chose to feel hurt in reaction to all that's happening.

But, I WILL take it out on Mr Carpenter! You betcha!

My W called at lunch and said there's a new water leak into my workshop... 2 days ago, some twit with a Sawzall (my least favorite tool on the planet's surface!) cutting through the bathroom floor cut the hot water supply line and water flooded 2 rooms downstairs. Now all that mold that's been anxiously waiting to get wet again since last year is cheering audibly!

The saga continues.

I'm going to go way out on a limb and then see if someone saws it off with a sawzall.

Actually, I used to be a plumber and I really liked them, saved me lots of time (and that's money) on construction jobs. That was more than 20 years ago, so don't hold it against me. Besides, most of that woodworking stuff you have in your workshop takes brains to run, but even I can run a sawzall.

T-zero, I think that Pepper and John just want something to happen because they like you and they are mad at your W for causing you pain. They know what that pain feels like, they don't want you to keep feeling it.

I haven't said much lately because I think that:

1. You feel like there is progress. You are getting more from your W more often, even if the rate of improvement is slow. So you feel like as long as their is improvement you can continue to endure some "abuse."

2. The other side of the coin is that if you leave you figure it is over so you don't want to leave because you figure some abuse right now is better than ending the whole enchilada for good.

3. You have tried lots of things that have been recommended and what is working the best is self improvement and patience.

4. You figure that if she continues to improve there may be a day that everything will fix itself and she will wake up in the morning and say " I am happy with T-zero, I don't need RM, what was I thinking?

5. It has happened to some, I have read the threads somewhere although I can't direct you to them. When I first came here about a year ago, I went back and read thousands of threads from way back. ( never did read JL's story though, but I wasn't looking for it.)

T, you do others a lot of good as well as getting help yourself. If you are like me, just reading some of this stuff helps me resolve to keep showing love to my W, so that these bad things don't happen to me.

My feeling is that along the way we all take and we all give some abuse. True, yours has gone on way to long, and it worse than some. However it is shorter and better than others. Usedlongago comes to mind.

T, I believe what Pepper and John are doing is just trying to get you to think of all the angles, see all the sides. What Csue said is true, we all bring our own perspective to this, but that is why we are able to help. If we could see all the sides ourselves, we wouldn't need to come here. ( OK, OK, there is an emotional element to all this too, there is venting, and support.)

I believe that the things that were said, and your reaction will help in the long run. Every time we think about things more deeply and see other sides, we make progress.

One of the other things that T has to cope with is that leaving ( because of emotional abuse) may shut the door, it may be final, and irreversible. He has to be to the point where he understands that and can accept it and live with it when he leaves. He is not there yet, so he won't consider that yet.

T, sometimes your friends, if they are really your friends, will say things you don't want to hear. It just means they care. We just say stuff, you already know you can ignore it if you want.

I heard that beer takes out soda stains, it that true?

Pep, I still consider myself a relative newbie. I don't mean to put words in your mouth. If I said it wrong, help me out.

SS

BTW, you haven't given us enough info about her calling you "spouse".

You have talked to her, and she says what???

SS

That's the point. I haven't been able to talk to her lately about "spouse" versus "H". Last time wasn't favorable. She was also still saying "I never wanted to be M'd". She hasn't said that in over a month, and so I wonder if she hasn't because she doesn't feel that way anymore, or she hasn't because she's afraid I might say "okay, let's not be' or something along those lines.

It was just a focal point for this thread. It wasn't the gist of what's happening with us... ...or maybe it is. I don't know.

I think she says it because she still has feelings that "H" connotes "ownership." I know, I know, so would "spouse", but it isn't as personal (non gender-specific, so it applies to her as well).

-Qfwfq

Okay SS (and anybody else out there that might want to cut a hole in a wall or something:

"Actually, I used to be a plumber and I really liked them, saved me lots of time (and that's money) on construction jobs. That was more than 20 years ago, so don't hold it against me. Besides, most of that woodworking stuff you have in your workshop takes brains to run, but even I can run a sawzall."

Sawzalls are brutal tools. Long blades that move back and forth at high speeds. They're most often used in construction sites to cut holes in existing walls for access to pipes and wires. They've been using them at our historic home to open walls in lath and plaster. Now, when you use a sawzall on lath and plaster, the blade rattles the lath and breaks all the plaster keys for a good 2 feet to either side of the cut. So, when these mindless twits go away and I have to patch the holes, I have to take out a huge area to repair the damage they caused. And that isn't even to mention the possibilities of cutting into live wires and water pipes under pressure. Thankfully, nobody has electrocuted themselves yet, but we have had 2 leaks this week alone! ...and I have all those gawdawful holes to repair everywhere in those historic walls.

A few years ago, God invented the spiral saw. This is when I believe in her. A spiral saw with a good tile bit will cut very neat holes in walls without going any deeper than you set it (and thus not cutting wires or pipes), and not vibrating the snot out of the lath and plaster in the process. I bought a cheap one for the workers to try out. They used it for a day and broke it. They did love it, though. So, I'd like my contractor to buy good quality versions for them to use from now on... ...but so far he hasn't, and so we get more gawdawful holes in the walls in the interim.

Okay, I'm done with my OT rave against the sawzall! (actually, they do have a purpose - cutting up auto bodies!).

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-Qfwfq

SS:

"I haven't said much lately because I think that:

1. You feel like there is progress. You are getting more from your W more often, even if the rate of improvement is slow. So you feel like as long as their is improvement you can continue to endure some "abuse.""

Well put. How come I can't put things this way?

"2. The other side of the coin is that if you leave you figure it is over so you don't want to leave because you figure some abuse right now is better than ending the whole enchilada for good."

True.

"3. You have tried lots of things that have been recommended and what is working the best is self improvement and patience."

True. Although I would have never believed I could be this patient for this long. Which is why, periodically, I want it to end NOW. ;o)

"4. You figure that if she continues to improve there may be a day that everything will fix itself and she will wake up in the morning and say " I am happy with T-zero, I don't need RM, what was I thinking?"

It would be nice, but the pessimist in me doesn't believe this will happen. The optimist continues to hope.

"5. It has happened to some, I have read the threads somewhere although I can't direct you to them. When I first came here about a year ago, I went back and read thousands of threads from way back. ( never did read JL's story though, but I wasn't looking for it.)"

JL doesn't have a "story". Or at least not in the sense that *I* do. You don't either. ;o)

"T, you do others a lot of good as well as getting help yourself. If you are like me, just reading some of this stuff helps me resolve to keep showing love to my W, so that these bad things don't happen to me."

Thanks. And I wish I had found something like MB 12 or more years ago!

"My feeling is that along the way we all take and we all give some abuse. True, yours has gone on way to long, and it worse than some. However it is shorter and better than others. Usedlongago comes to mind."

ULA's sitch has gotten me way down on a number of occasions that you might remember. I can't imagine that. Over all, though, I'd have to say that my sitch, at least in the past 6 months or so, has been far less awful than what most here experience. Not that it's peachy or I shouldn't want it to improve.

"T, I believe what Pepper and John are doing is just trying to get you to think of all the angles, see all the sides. What Csue said is true, we all bring our own perspective to this, but that is why we are able to help. If we could see all the sides ourselves, we wouldn't need to come here. ( OK, OK, there is an emotional element to all this too, there is venting, and support.)"

I realize this. I really do. Sometimes in my rush and frustration, I compound my frustration by coming here, rather than allay it. And so, when I go home, my W senses it, and we stall again.

"I believe that the things that were said, and your reaction will help in the long run. Every time we think about things more deeply and see other sides, we make progress.

One of the other things that T has to cope with is that leaving ( because of emotional abuse) may shut the door, it may be final, and irreversible. He has to be to the point where he understands that and can accept it and live with it when he leaves. He is not there yet, so he won't consider that yet."

No, I'm not there yet. Maybe it's because I feel there's still a lot of reason for hope. Maybe it's because I need to grow a lot more. Maybe it's even financial worries. Maybe all of the above. For whatever reason, I don't feel ready yet.

"T, sometimes your friends, if they are really your friends, will say things you don't want to hear. It just means they care. We just say stuff, you already know you can ignore it if you want."

I know. I know...

"I heard that beer takes out soda stains, it that true?"

I don't think so. On the other hand, if I use enough beer, I can't SEE the stains anymore!!! or they don't bother me, or both! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-Qfwfq

That's the point. I haven't been able to talk to her lately about "spouse" versus "H". Last time wasn't favorable.

One of the problems with lack of communication is that we tend to jump TO conclusions. It looks like both of you sometimes do that . ( and why should you be any different than me?) so I wonder if she hasn't because she doesn't feel that way anymore, or she hasn't because she's afraid I might say "okay, let's not be'

It was just a focal point for this thread. It wasn't the gist of what's happening with us... ...or maybe it is. I don't know.
How would you like to find out?

How about approaching her to find out if she wants to set up "rules" for having talks. DON'T CALL IT THAT, SHE WILL REBEL.
Just say something like this.
I've been wanting to have a talk with you about something ( watch her look up quickly when you say that,) but before we talk, I wanted to discuss with you, how to talk to you.
( pause and wait for her to say OK) Or she may say " what do you mean, how to talk to me, what's wrong with the way we talk.?
and then you can go on -
Well, sometimes when we talk, I feel that I hurt your feelings, and I sometimes get mine hurt. I don't think either of us wants to hurt the other. I know I don't want to hurt you, because I love you and care about how you feel. I just wanted to discuss with you the way we have done it in the past and see if we can work out how to talk without hurting feelings and getting angry. I can't see any reason to hurt each other if we don't make demands, and if we are careful to consider the others feelings. ( at this point she will probably try to cut you off and ask what you want to talk about.) You can tell her.
I didn't know if you know it, but I would really like you to call me your H, instead of your Spouse. It hurts me the way you say it, I really don't understand all the reasons you do it, or why it hurts, but I wanted to discuss it.
You can leave the discussion about discussions and just get into the other one. If anything happens, stop and explain again how you wanted to set up some guidelines for discussions to make things like this easier, and show why.
The reason you wanted to be called Husband is that it would make you feel better and more loved. You can just ask her please to do it.

She may say no. Don't get your hopes up.

You know you don't have to do any of this stuff we come up with. I am looking for ways to break the ice and get used to talking with her about your feelings without being worried about it. If she wants things to move foreword, she will probably go for it. If she is eating cake ( as some have said, ) she will probably figure out some way out of it, or will get angry as a defense .
In that way, this should also be an indicator for you.
If this doesn't work, you can always try something else. Maybe the next best thing would be to let Pepper come over and talk to her. I can see how that would be good, really good.

If things are going to get better long term, somehow the lines of communication have to be opened up. Another thing you can ask her is if she feels comfortable talking to you, or if she has fears about it. It could teach you something about how she sees you.

You only need memorize one line if things go wrong with the conversation.
" Look, I love you, and all I wanted was to be able to talk with you without either of us getting ourt feelings hurt. That's all I wanted. Can we do that? "
No matter what she says ( if it is negative ) can be countered with that line or something like it. You can say it over and over.

The beautiful thing about this site is that you can read this and say "I really don't feel like I want to do that." and you don't have to do anything.

I'll just add again. My thoughts for you have been along these lines - how are they going to learn to talk and discuss their hopes and fears. That's what lovers do. That's' why they want to be lovers. ( at least to me.)

There's another angle for you. Now, I think I'll go home.

SS

<small>[ January 24, 2003, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

TZ: Although I recognize that it is based on Harley's approach, what SS suggests is also a lot like what Gottman suggests in his book: "The Seven Principles of making Marriage Work" in Chapter 10, "Overcoming Gridlock" Reading it may give you some good ideas about how to get at the meaning behind what people say, in an effort to resolve disagreements.

Look one of the reasons I am biased toward Plan B is because I am SURE it would have worked for me, including and especially during the three years my wife's affair was going on (unknown to me), and we were making PAINFULLY slow progress on our marriage (kind of hard to go fast when W's attention is elsewhere, and the worst problem is not even acknowledged <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) But anyway, despite my W's inattention, I am well aware exactly how much she depended on me, and it would have taken her about three seconds to comply with whatever semi-reasonable terms I wanted for recovery. So, compared to enduring three years of basically a continuation of the crappy marriage that had me wanting to leave HER one year before her affair started, Plan B for 3 seconds and a real recovery looks really attractive. Your mileage may vary.

ss:

Thanks for the lengthy reply. I do listen, I'm just really slow to act!

John39:

THanks for your thoughts, too. I do appreciate them. I just dont' think anybody really realizes just how hard a plan b would be, assuming I really needed to use it. Like today. We had to spend a good 4 hours with the contractor telling him where we wanted plugs and fixtures, fix the new plumbing leak, and figure out where we're going to move the contents of the house while they probably rip out all the plaster for removing mold and stuff from the walls. Too much time with both of us giving input to plan B.

We're doing good right now, but my W is really sick with the flu or some heinous cold. She snapped at the contractor as soon as he showed up. Pepper, his W is a nurse, too, and he relayed some thougths about stress, and said that of the things that are known to cause stress, remodeling is one of the top whatever number he gave. I'm betting I know what's first, but I didn't say anything!

I can't just let the house go, either. Even if it weren't a significant historic building, it was a great bargain when we bought it and could be worth about 4 times what we paid for it 5 years ago. Plus, I really like it!

-Qfwfq