Do you have any thoughts about the wording of my discussion with my WS tonight?
First off, you do not bring up any discussion of separation. If he wants to talk about it, let him bring it up & start the conversation, even if you are standing around for an hour waiting for him to get going.

Tell him you don't want a separation & you think nothing good will come of it. Don't go into great detail (you'll go see her & such.)

He's gonna leave if he wants to and you can't really do much about it. Plan A is making sure you do so you do not give him any reason to want to leave (eliminate LB's.)

Steve says to go ahead and give my blessing only if he agrees to not see the OW during this time.
If he insists on separation, then do as Steve suggested.

Mimi,
I'm sorry that your going through this. I love the idea about bringing up kids with the ow to him. Please gets Steve advice on separation. If you separate I would suggest you do it legally with a lawyer and set up child visitation (with the provision that ow not be around the kids). You don;t want to be responsible for any debt that he incurs on his own. I'm worried if you don't have a legal separation stating that he still pays for the mortage ect ect that he will stop paying (like the direct deposit the other week) Also if he wants to move ask if you can help him look and make sure he signs a short lease(month to month is available at some places). More than likely the ow told him what she wants but since he is supposedly not seeing the other
woman he only needs a small place were he can think. If he leaves you may also try to set up a date night were you two go out.

It sounds to me that he is directly under the ow influence since he spoke with her. Theres a good chance if you can stall this he will come around to you.

Redhat, Chris and Deb:

Thanks for the great feedback and suggestions! I'm not going to mention separation unless he does. I get the impression that he will. I saw him at the gym and he was mentioning again how he needs to talk to me.

I will appreciate any feedback from others.

It seems like he got under her spell even moreso this weekend. I wonder what it is. Do you think it was because they were not in contact for several days? It would be such a foolish, stupid, financial decision for him to move out. Of course, I won't tell him this. I have already spoken to a lawyer and learned that he will owe me alimony, child support and the mortgage payment. I have never known my H to waste a cent of money and look at him now. Addiction is scary!

<small>[ January 27, 2003, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Hey Everybody:

I'm scared! I don't want my WH to leave me. Separation is too big of a step. I can't believe he would think of going to that extreme! Why can't I accept the reality of this? He hasn't come home yet but he is acting really weird since this weekend. I wonder what happened. I just discovered that he confiscated some framed family pictures and a picture of himself. When will this nightmare end????

I'm scared! I don't want my WH to leave me.
Of course you're scared. It's okay.

Separation is too big of a step.
Yes it is. This is why you demonstrate a good Plan A. Tho show him you are strong EVEN in the wake of his affair. The BEST thing you can do is to smile as he walks out the door (if it happens.) Don't cry & scream trying to get him to stay. It's okay if your a bit upset but wait until he's gone to let loose.

I can't believe he would think of going to that extreme!
It's probably very difficult for him too. By not being a b!tch about it, it will be more difficult for him (sort of "it's hard to kick a person when they're down).

Why can't I accept the reality of this?
Simply because of all the emotion involved. You don't have to like it or agree with it but there is not much you can do to stop it. As before, the BEST thing you can do is to smile and tell him to take care of himself.

Thanks for being there, Chris, in response to my sense of desperation.

I needed to vent here in order to prevent myself from begging and pleading.

"I'm continuing with MY PLAN" (as Steve would want me to say)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>Hey Everybody:

I'm scared! I don't want my WH to leave me. Separation is too big of a step. I can't believe he would think of going to that extreme! Why can't I accept the reality of this? When will this nightmare end????</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi, just know that seperation is not the end of the road and KEEP YOUR EMOTIONS UNDER CONTROL. This is not uncommon in these situations. By getting out of his way, you will enable him to see the reality of a seperation. Hopefully, it will help in evaporating the fantasy he is living in right now. Give him enough rope to hang himself.

Please calm down and remember that you are a very capable, bright woman who can manage on her own, even if its for a short period of time. [I suspect if he does leave,he will be right back] This may be the very thing that brings him out of the fog. Please just calm down.

Hi Mel:

Thanks for responding.

Tell me more about how to do this: getting out of his way so that he can see the reality of a separation.

Mimi,

Whatever you do, DO NOT beg or plead or try to educate your H. Espoir has it right on the money,good advice there.

Tell your H the things she's mentioned and tell him you love him enough to want his happiness. My kids and I actually helped my H move out.

The more ok you are with this the more you give him to think about. I told my H it was fine for him to go but that I wouldn't wait for him to make up his mind forever. Not an ultimatum, but the honest truth. I also told him that if was going to parent alone I would seek the help of a support group called parent's without partners so I would have the support of people in my same situation (that really worried him and made him realize that if he didn't want me someone else would). I also let him know that if I parented alone all week he would have the kids on the weekends so I could get a break. That would put a damper on any plans he had w/OW. My kids wouldn't go with him and that even made him all the sadder.

A separation will also ensure that he gets to experience all of the consequences of his behavior, provided you do not enable him and make things easy for him. it's not much fun to have to do everything for yourself when you've had a wife doing it for you for years. It also will allow some of the fantasy to wear off of the A when he gets to see what OW is like on a day to day basis if that's what he goes ahead and does. Good luck!

Mimi,

Gonna try to set another focus point for you. See right now it is easy for your H to succumb to the OW or anyone like her even if it put his life in jeporady.

Now how does that make you feel? Do you still trust him with the lives of yourself and your children?

So to offset his guilt, he mentions his need for 'space' otherwise known as separation. Really is another way of saying he wants you to enable his A. On the other hand, you need to be away from him because you really can't trust him anyways, right? Isn't that confusing? So what is a mate to do?

Well at this point, giving him his 'space' or not will not stop him from seeing the OW, just the added pain of you knowing of it when he is living at home.

So....... IMHO, let him have his space. Then put in the clincher (not to be mistaken as an ultimatum), tell him you love him that is why you will acknowledge his need for his 'space'. Tell him you hope he doesn't fill his space with unwanted material (don't say OW). Then ask him to show his commitment by securing your family's financial future (can't overload him at this time but $$ has a way of bringing the WS back to reality especially if the OW wants him to lavish her with YOUR family's $$). Get this commitment in writing. He would probably sign his life away at this point, since you are appearing to give him his freedom. Something like you will give him his $ from the direct deposit into the family's account otherwise the family could be rendered homeless and he would be responsible.

Then let him know that you need your space also. Don't explain what that means. Let him move himself out. You make sure you have yourself and your family's finances secure.

End by saying that you love him but wouldn't be surprised if he sells his family up the river for some strange OW. He will say no but his words will ring in his ears. He may try to convince you that he won't leave you destitude. Let him give you more and more evidence. Remember it appears you just gave him his freedom to have the A run rampant.

Add the final twist that enabling his A is not your objective so he needs to make sure he is rebuilding your trust even out there. Either become a better liar or do what is right.

Seems like you are talking to a child. You are.

This is what the babble is about. You don't argue, but make your point but nodding yes and speaking no. It confuses the WS but they do recall what you say.

I wished the WS in my life well. I was finally strong enough to tell him to let the OW meet allllll......his needs. You should have seen his big blue eyes get even bigger!!!! LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Realize that the OW is not that great. But until he can see that, she will always be a fantasy. Unfortunately some of our spouses are kinda dumb that way. When they do figure it out, then they will have to deal with the issue of whether the BS wants them back or not. Then it will be up to you.

JMHO, of course.

L.

Orchid:

I absolutely love your idea about the bank account. You're onto something I had not realized. The financial issue is one of the scariest things to me about the separation. Also, you helped me realize that I do not like how the A is sort of "up in my face" and he is not really doing anything about it.

Steve H. also recommended being clear about not enabling the A. He said even if he lies and says it will not be continuing to let him know that continuing it is not acceptable.

Yes. He is being childish. I almost feel sorry for him. The problem is that he is destroying his life and everything we worked to build. He is out of control and this is taking over.

I am getting stronger and stronger the more I read these posts. Thanks to all of you!

Funny though. My WS who just had to talk to me about SEPARATION tonignt isn't home yet. Is time spent with the OW keeping him from working things out to be with her???? She has become extremely demanding since D-Day, seems almost desperate.

Oh Well. On to working on myself!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mthrrhbard:
<strong>Mimi,

Whatever you do, DO NOT beg or plead or try to educate your H. Espoir has it right on the money,good advice there.

Tell your H the things she's mentioned and tell him you love him enough to want his happiness. My kids and I actually helped my H move out.

The more ok you are with this the more you give him to think about.!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mimi, this is what I mean by getting out of his way. Let him find out what its really like!

Mel, I Got it! about giving him space.

He's home. He still hasn't brought up the topic. PLAN A Behaviors are obvious. Dinner is ready. House is immaculate. New sheets on the bed. He asked, "Where did you get the sheets?" He noticed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 27, 2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

Thanks so much to all of you who were HERE for me yesterday.

After all of the drama, he came home and mentioned NOTHING about separation. Of course, he may have been waiting for me to bring up the topic.

As indicated in my previous post, the PLAN A behaviors were striking and he noticed. He even asked about an agreement that we had made regarding our son as if checking to be sure that I was remaining consistent.

This morning I worked on the ADMIRATION NEED. I asked him to hang some pictures in my office and to get my watch fixed. He eagerly said that he would assist me. My purpose was to show him how much I need him. I REALLY DO. I just have not been vocalizing my need, unfortunately taking him for granted. I also thanked him for taking my son to the doctor and what the dr. said. He said, "didn't he tell you about the dr.'s visit?" and I said "I need his father's perspective. Lastly I asked him about what he learned at the conference, the business venture. He loved telling me all about this, I could hardly get out the door to go to work.

I need to tell him how worried I am about him. He is looking stressed like this rollercoaster ride is getting the best of him.

This is not to say that the separation issue is not still raging. He very well may be planning on leaving today.

I just know that I am working on myself and what I need to do and that is giving me strength. Thanks to you guys this is my main goal. I LOVE YOU PEOPLE!!!!

Mimi,

What is all this about?? Did he bring up all this seperation stuff so you wouldn't be furious with him for splitting for the weekend? I am starting to think that he is doing stuff like this [threatening seperation] to stir the waters so he will have cover to go do what he wants every weekend. In other words, if you are riled up about his leaving then oyu won't be so riled up about a weekend romp. I would love to hear what Steve says about all this.

Mel:

Good thought about questioning the reasoning behind the separation conversation.

I realized later that he didn't bring it up until I asked him yesterday "what's going on between us?" I guess he didn't know what else to say. I know I should not have asked this. Its relationship talk and too demanding. I still think, too, that he feels that an easy solution for his dilemma is for ME to ask for a separation; thus, trying to make me angry by staying away all weekend, wanting me to throw my hands up. Remember that weekend when he said, "Sabrina, let me go". Is this typical WS behavior???? Yesterday, Steve called this CONFLICT AVOIDANCE which is self-seeking and doesn't work.

Mimi- I'll tell you a funny story. My WS was going to move out "to explore himself". He was calling realtors, circling the rental ads. First he was going to move to the country two hours away- where he'd always dreamed of living. We actually went on a weekend trip up to the area that he was thinking of- it ended up being an antiquing trip and we stayed in a cute hotel (and had SF). He started to realize it was quite a drive up and back and that it was going to be a drag going back and forth to see the kids.

Then he thought maybe I'll live in the city. We went to see a loft together. I said nothing, except that the window (a large floor to ceiling window on the fifth floor) seemed dangerous for young children.

He had seen two places he liked, had the leases in his hand- was supposed to sign them any day. I didn't argue, beg, plead etc. (Did tell him he would have to be the one to tell the children about his decision to move). Providentially exactly at this time, my mammo showed an irregularity needing follow up tests. My H said he couldn't move out if I might be sick and he didn't sign the leases. Now, it doesn't mean the nightmare was over- the A continued and many times over the next few months he brought up the topic of separation.

What I'm saying is there's alot of steps between saying I want a separation and actually moving out. Ignore him. tell him to let you know his moveout date and you'll have the separation papers ready for him to sign... and until then you don't want to discuss it.

Don't ask questions like what's your decision? What's going on between us? I don't think he knows.

I don't know about asking about the A. What I did, and I don't know if this would work for you is, make comments and try to get my WS to talk. For example, when I first found out, I said, "I don't think I can compete with this. You've found the perfect woman, 10 years younger than me, to have the perfect romance with." Ironically my WS started telling me she wasn't so perfect, he didn't like such and such about her, etc. I listened to him. Subtly pointed stuff out- but I was never rude about her- ever, until after he broke it off (when I lost it, alot of anger came out- and it just resulted in phone calls to her because he couldn't cope with my anger).

You could try a "I can understand that you want to be with this OW. After all, she's young and gorgeous, and you've never had to go through the kinds of problems we've had to face with our kids. Why would you want to give up the perfect relationship?"

If your WH brings up separation make sure to work in the words visitation schedule. Make it clear he will have your son every other weekend. (and maybe one weekday as well) Of course, your son needs his father and one benefit of separation will be that H can have his relationship with his son without your interference.

Hi All:

I just had my session with Steve H. I thought you all might be interested in his take on all of this.

He agreed with what many of you have said. My focus at this time needs to be on bettering myself and working on my relationship with my children. I need to stop looking for my WS to determine how well I am doing on MY PLAN because "he doesn't see much right now". He wants me to try to ignore a lot of what he is saying. He even encouraged me to go to ALANON because my 20 year old is an alcoholic whom I have enabled. He says that ALANON will also help me learn to understand and deal with my WS' addiction and how to put up appropriate boundaries with him and how not to enable him to continue his A. Sounds like a lot of what I've heard from you all.

I'm teaching my sons the importance of taking responsibility for their own actions. This is a lesson that my WS now needs to learn as well. So Steve recommends that I state that I will not talk about my responsibility for the affair unless he also talks about his issue of continuing to have an affair.

Steve focuses on a perception of my WS as being like a DRUG ADDICT . He uses the OW as a "mind-altering substance". My WS admits the affair was his cure for depression.

Also it seems that I was meeting a lot of his ENs and still do. I just can't provide the quick fix that the drug does. Steve states that the infidelity occurred because my WS was "exposed to the drug source and he let her in". He did not have his guard up because I was lovebusting big time by not being on his side as a parent. He states that this is a big issue for my WS and this made me UNATTRACTIVE. However, this is no excuse for his infidelity!!!

Why the variability in my WS' actions? Steve states that my WH has a current plan of taking things hour by hour, day by day. Of course, this is no plan and it is not going to work. The goal is for him to eventually work with me on a plan to restore our marriage. Hopefully, this will be with Steve's help.

Your comments are welcomed. Thanks again for being there!

PS I loved the advice of Orchid, Melody Lane, Mother Hubbard and Deb.
Great point about the bank account, and the fact that if he's just getting a place "to think" it can be simple and cheap.

and I thought your actions and comments- re: getting help with your office, and asking about the doctor visit were EXCELLENT!

Way to go, Mimi!

I love your suggested statements regarding his sweet, young thing. I have made such comments offhand and his response has been she's not "better" (looking, sexually, etc.), she's "different". This usually leads him into wanting to prove that I am OK. That is, it is often a prelude to sexual intimacy.

Your comments remind me to make those comments more often because they seem to ring some kind of bell with him.

The problem is that I think its the excitement and naivete' of her youth, not necessarily the physical attractiveness or SF. How do I compete with that?

<small>[ January 28, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>