Listen, whenever you hook up with a new person, especially someone younger, who is feeding your ego, it's going to be attractive. But along with the thrill- there is discomfort and fear. That's why your H is still at home.

Your comments can subtly underscore that- but be careful. You have to figure out what the real deal of OWs weaknesses are- and that is not always so easy.

But you can ask questions about her. Or at least I did, and it helped not hurt.

It's really part of the reality check. With my WS, when he was in his separation phase, I discussed many of the possibilities. I would say, I guess you're going to marry her and she'll be our children's stepmother. He'd say, no, she's not going to be our children's stepmother. I'd say, well, I'm assuming she will be since I doubt she'll be satisfied with living together for very long.

I brought up alot of the realities carefully, without LBs. (that's why I would definitely bring up the kid thing with your H). But the OW in our case had some huge weaknesses. She was on her third affair during her M. She was a liar. Yeah, she had stuff going for her, a bit wild and free, creative, and she was all over my H. But wild and free can translate into unreliable. Creative? well in my marriage my H is the creative one and I can tell you he doesn't really like to share the limelight- he wants support and he doesn't like to give support. My H was slowly figuring this out but it took some time.

Some of her possible weaknesses. Has your H met OW's friends? Does she have friends? How will your H like hanging out with groups of younger people. The age difference is a problem. (My H revealed that his OW had some close male friends who were panting over her- but she just kept them as friends. I said stuff like, I guess you'll make friends with X since it sounds like he has a really close relationship with OW. knowing that my H would NOT like being friends with someone who's drooling over his woman- he's VERY jealous and that's why I don't have any close male friends who are drooling over me).

What's the deal with her family? Are they likely to accept your H? Is that what they want for their daughter? ("What is OW's family like? I suppose they could be your in laws someday, so you've probably gotten to know them.")

The child issue. Good chance her biological clock is ticking.

Her interests. Usually the interests of someone her age and your H's age are different. Is she a partyer or a club goer? You don't necessarily have to ask about this, but make a point of taking an interest in the stuff your H likes (especially if it is something OW might not like.)

But in the mean time, Steve is absolutely right. Plan A Plan A Plan A. Keep your chin up Mimi.

<small>[ January 28, 2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

Hi mimi. I've been following your posts. You're doing well and you're geting terrific advice. I haven't posted because I have nothing to add that hasn't already been said. But, let me add my support and encouragement. Keep up the good work!

OK, one piece of advice: Think long term. You don't walk looking at the ground for every step, right? Part of what Steve suggested was along this line - concentrate on your self and not so much on every word and action of your WS. We know it's hard, but it helps to try NOT to figure them out. Ever try to reason with a drunk?

WAT

Hi WAT:

I'm glad to see you checked in. I was wondering what your thoughts are.

Espoir:

From what I can tell, the OW has isolated herself from other people and is really focused on her relationship with my H at this point. She is home when she is not with him. I know he likes this because that was what he wanted me to do- be in a world with just him. It was great when he was IN LOVE with me. The problem now is that I am lonely and he has her. I don't have many really close friends of my own. That's another story. Also, she was divorced in April 02 after 4 years of marriage. She has a daughter but does not have custody of her for some reason; she probably had the daughter as a teenager and her mother has her. She was at home alone on Xmas and Thanksgiving so she is not close with her family. My H also probably finds this appealing since he is not speaking to his parents. My family is very close and he has always felt uncomfortable with our ease with each other and large-scale family events.

I know I get too anxious and have focused on everything he says and does. My goal is to back off, play it cool. Time is on my side as WAT says.

He took my watch to get it fixed after I asked him this morning. This is the man who was talking about a separation yesterday. Wow is he confused!!!! Who knows what the night will bring?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mimi1254:
<strong>Wow is he confused!!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">YES!! mimi, remember you said this the next time you try to analyze what he says or does!

WAT

I changed the topic heading for clarity's sake if anyone needs to refer back to this in the future. The feedback has been EXTREMELY HELPFUL!!!

Still no talk of separation tonight. He came home early for dinner. There is minimal conversation between us but that's alright. Better than the ranting or the R talk. Will keep you friends posted.

mimi1254,

What did you reward WH with for fixing your watch ?. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> If he is more helpfull to you; you know that you need to shine his armor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> .

Silent is not good ... don't push conversation but ask him about his day and his plan on work place ... blow his head with some hot air. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

-rh-

Not a good morning.

He made a special effort to not get near me in bed last night.

Then, he tried to pick a fignt 30 minutes before I had to leave to go to work. Did his usual of making up something bad about my son, wanting me to discipline my son and when I did it wasn't the right thing. My son left for school in tears because of continued conflict in the home which centers around him. My WS wants to focus on how BAD he is which he really isn't as BAD as my WS makes him into. He is BLAMING my son for everything. I responded as Steve suggested that he needs to work on his part in this, just like me. Maybe I should have waited on this but he only wants to focus on what I am doing wrong in the relationship. He ignored me. Didn't respond to my reference to infidelity not being OK. He seemed to feel justified after picking the fight which of course I couldn't resolve in that limited amount of time. He is GOOD at setting these scenarios up so he can feel OK about continuing to see her! I fell into the trap. I probably LBed.
I'm only human. I'll just keep trying to do the best I can do.

Hello Mimi,

I'd like share some of my experience in hopes that you may be able to avoid some of the more critical mistakes I made with my H before he left me. I have been separated since October 2001 as you will see from my signature line. Sometimes I don't even like to read it because it reminds me of the severe pain I experienced when he finally left (as many of my MB friends will remember).

My H felt very much like yours prior to leaving. However, instead of focusing on myself and my D, I focused on him and harassed him about the A, how he could do this to "us", to his D, to our families, to our friends...nothing of which he wanted to hear or needed to hear from someone he resented so clearly. I was the ENEMY in his eyes who FORCED him to have the A and he was ANGRY. Became angrier with time.

I'm a slow learner but realize that my desperate attempts to bring him back actually pushed him away even further and into the arms of the OW.

I realize now that portrayal of strength and confidence are much more powerful both for you and your marriage.

Take care of yourself

Re: some of my previous advice. OK, it doesn't sound like there's as many obvious chinks in this OW's armor. Believe me there are deep down. But OW is very cleverly buying into the fantasy cocoon. Also, your WH has been going on in this affair for a year? making it harder to cut off- he's more entrenched. So ignore my previous advice re: sweet young thing or use it sparingly.

<strong>Did his usual of making up something bad about my son, wanting me to discipline my son and when I did it wasn't the right thing. </strong>

Let's rethink this. Firstly Mimi it's important to start mentally thinking "our son" not "my son". So WH has an issue, a complaint with son. Why is WH not involved in the disciplining? You must insist on this Mimi- respectfully- but stand your ground.

I'd be curious to hear more about this specific issue. What did son do that was bad, or what did WH make up? What was the punishment that WH came up with? How did you communicate it to your son? Why was it ineffective? How did son react? What happened with the punishment? Why was WS dissatisfied with the punishment?
Can you describe this in detail?

You also mentioned not having alot of friends. Do you have interests, activities? What do you like to do? Does WH participate with you?

First, I will report on how the scenario went this morning.

WH: "(My Name), he is leaving hair in the sink and on the floor in the bathroom. I don't know if he is doing it on purpose or not. You need to tell him to clean up in there when he is finished. You can go in there and check and see if there is hair if you don't believe me."

I did go check without my WS knowing because he REALLY DOES make things up. There was no hair anywhere that I could see. However, when our son came to washup I said: " (His Name), you need to make sure to get the hair out of the sink when you finish." OUR SON proceeded to close the door in my face as I was talking. THIS IS THE PROBLEM THAT STEVE IS HAVING ME TO ADDRESS; ALLOWING DISRESPECT. My WS very much resents this about me. I did not immediately give him a consequence as well I should have. I said, "That's an example of disrespect". My WS then starts ranting in front of our son: "You should have told him that he can't be in the pageant, that shows me that you aren't serious about changing. Is he still going to be in the pageant? You have to get tough on these kids,etc."
I said: "We need to talk together about what the consequence will be; we had agreed that he can be in the pageant if he writes essays".(We had reached a POJA about this; my WH does not want our son to be in the pageant and it is a big deal for the son.) My WH then recommended that he not be able to use this particular bathroom as a consequence and I told my son this. WS seems satisfied with this.

The conversation then continues with me saying: "I'm working on the respect issue and you are absolutely right on how it should not be tolerated. I need your help with this. Please don't criticize my actions in front of him it takes away from him being respectful of me". I probably went too far with this because WS really wasn't listening to me. In fact, when I tried to talk to him he even tried to walk away from me on several occasions. As Steve says, he really isn't listening right now to me.

WS starts on his rant on basically how bad a mother I am and how he going to give up on the kids and make me raise them on my own,etc. etc. Then I mention how "along with me working on my problems that lead us to this place we also need to address the other actions that are going on now, what you are doing. You need to take responsibility for that like I am taking responsibility for my actions." I could tell he was pissed but he did not say anything. He looked at me like, I told you not to mention the A. However, this is what Steve told me to do. He believes that my WS needs to start taking a look at his actions.

I called him back later at the office to make it clear that I was stating this because it is necessary to look at both of our parts in this in order to restore our marriage. He stated : "I heard what you said to me, you were threatening me. I said: I didn't mean it that way. He said: "You need to be gentle with me like you are to your children". Important information here is that the OW must be gentle with him. That's a strange word for him to use. I have never heard him use that word.

So, my WS was addressing his complaints about me. At this time, given the A, the problem is how it is done. He demands that I comply with his directions about consequences, gets angry that I did not think of the consequence he would have used and gives this as a reason for his need to leave. He also, in my POV, is nitpicky although I have learn that these particular issues are important to him. Also, similar scenarios have occurred in the past month just before he rushes out probably to see the OW. It seems to me that he looks for a grievance that cannot be easily resolved. This occurred 30 minutes before I had to leave to go to work and our son was getting ready to go to school.

It is interesting that I keep thinking my son. He is distanced from the boys. I don't believe that I have totally responsible for that. We have a lot of wounds here as Steve says and we have to keep plugging away at them. It will be impossible for us to resolve these issues as long as he continues in the A with the OW who has no children and is probably playing this up big time. I can imagine her saying, they don't care about you; she only loves the kids.

HELP!!! I believe I goofed big time again. I'm almost wanting to give up. I just get anxious in these situations and never say or do what I need to. I feel like its a test that I keep failing.

whoa!!! what the heck???

If your HUSBAND has an issue about HAIR then your HUSBAND should talk to son about it. Why on earth is there any reason to include you on such a trivial matter??

And then you joined into the insanity by rebuking son for NO APPARENT REASON. If anyone got a scolding, it should have been HUSBAND for inventing a reason to be mad at son. You said yourself that you FOUND NO HAIR....so why scold son for it?????

If son is getting scoldings for NOTHING, then who could blame him for ignoring you???

What nonsense. This whole thing is so messed up I don't know where to begin!

Who even cares about the whole pageant thing -- THIS SHOULD NEVER HAVE GOTTEN THAT FAR.

It looks to me like your H set you up, to prove that you don't handling things the way he wants you to, and you joined into the game.

Stop trying to please H, and look at the simple right or wrong of the situation. Use common sense, cuz its pretty obvious your H doesn't have any.

Lexxy,
I've been thinking about things your way today.
My son went to school in tears, saying no one at home loves him.
Since you were a WS do you understand what's going on with my WS???

mimi,

One thing that you should do is reversed babble, when your WH complaint like that ... don't take it as your problem. He owns it too ... W/ respect you should tell him that "why don't you tell son yourself ?, you are his father, he needs one right now".

Listen, mimi. My WW told everyone that she move out to spared my kids feeling from abuse from me. The reality is she abused them verbally like that too and that is when I drew the line. I stood by my kid, she could destroy my M, she could destory me but I would not let her destory my 2 D (Really my 2 D since she is snatched by alien). Yes, we are all wanting to save our M but at what cost ?.

You should write thing down on his actions and best to counter them. No LB but firm and pass the ball back to WH. Review it with SH when you have conseling with him.

-rh-

Thanks Redhat. I've realized that part of the PLAN that Steve recommends that I follow is to stop my CONFLICT AVOIDANCE. He thinks that is self-seeking on my part, the easy way out. Therefore, he is suggesting that I go ahead and be firm with my WS like I did. However, my WS reads this as "threatening" him. He also said I was "picking on him" by bringing up the A. He is getting more and more out of control. I do not know what in the world she is saying to him! The more I do PLAN A and he responds so negatively the less I really want him. I guess that's the way it is supposed to work.

Is your son in councelling Mimi?

he may need to learn some new coping mechanisms himself aswell..sounds like for a boy going through even the most usual teenage crap, he also has a lot of extra issues to deal with...just a thought.

If I have missed it in your threads where he has...ooppsss!!

M<imi,

Please tell your H to handle the problem himself when he has an issue with your son. He complains about not having any authority and then he continually relegates it to you!

Also, why would you get on the boy when you knew there was no hair in the sink? That is extremely unjust and I don't understand why you did that. He did nothing wrong and should not be punished to accomodate your H's immature little resentments. Your son is to be protected at all costs.

Mel,
I told him to make sure he cleans out the sink after he washes up; he was in the bathroom combing his hair at the time. I did not get after him for putting hair in the sink beforehand. The problem was him closing the door on me when I was trying to talk to him. I guess he's tired of all this conflict at home. We've talked about it this evening. He still needs to show respect to me even though his Dad is acting Wacko! Right? That's what Steve H. says.

You're right, Mel. My WS does tend to talk to my son through me. I will work on that. Thanks!

Something to realize here. The better your Plan A, the more your H sees that you are the one that best meets his needs the angrier he will become. He has to become angry in order to keep trying to justify his behavior to himself. That's why they pick fights, they've just got to have some reason to be angry with you. It takes two to do this dance. Stop dancing. Biggest coping mechanisms in a WS are denial and PROJECTION. He projects his anger and disgust and disappointment in himself onto you and gives himself the opportunity to do so by nit picking whenever he has the chance. My FWS used to actually come home and be mean to the dog, knowing the kids and I would have a fit and then blame us because we didn't understand. It was absurdity at it's best.

It sounds like your son has been in emotional turmoil over the conflict with his dad before the affair ever affected your WS's behavior. Please,please, please get into family counseling with your teenager, even if you are the only parent who goes. He's said he feels like no one at home loves him! He actually EXPRESSED that. He must hurt pretty badly to come out and say it. Most teens would keep it to themselves and just keep shutting the door in your face. He is crying out for help. Please hear him.

As far as competing with a younger OW, simply you don't. Mimi, you have to remember this affair isn't about OW, it's about your H and midlife crisis and depression. OW could have been anybody who stroked his ego. Do not feel you must compete with her. She is nothing special, she could have been anyone. Remember something else as well, there's some reason she doesn't have custody of her child and doesn't get along with her family and it likely isn't very pretty or attractive.

One more thing. I would gently let you H know that you are worried about the stress he is under and the depression he admittedly says he is experiencing and try to get him to a doctor for meds. My own H who had denied for 3-4 years that he was depressed, finally felt so horrible after d-day that he tried antidepressants. He wouldn't take them long but he had such an amazing response in his mood that he started to see clearly again. Sometimes you need to substitute one drug(anti-d's) for another drug (OW). He will now recommend antidepressant therapy to his male friends that he sees have the same symptoms he did. Again one of the primary symptoms of depression in men is irritability, seeing the glass half empty instead of half full. Maybe you could offer some "gentleness" in showing concern for his physical health and mental state.

mimi will post soon

Mimi,

Our children will feel the heat of it all even if they are not put in the middle (as in the case with your son). So realize that your children will be sensitive to all of this anyway. Make sure your children know you love them and give them support and help.

Now as for your H, it is high time this WS look in the mirror when he has anger problems. I told my WS to go look in the mirror so he could see what we saw in his alien anger mood. Even resorted to actually talking to the wall, since I got a better reaction than when I spoke to him. You know what? The wall answered and nicely too!

I agree with the others that the dad needs to address issues with his children but he also needs to be able to show they are reasonable issues, not stupid ones. Knowing this will make him think twice before he makes himself look like an _ _ $$ in front of the children.

You can then build on the fact that if he learns to address the children's issues in a fatherly and loving manner, then he can learn to do the same with you.

What will you be doing? Actually showing him how to treat you better via how he treats the chlidren. This vital lesson will show you that if he is not willing to work with his children, then you'd better think twice if you want this character around you and your family.

IMHO,
L.