There is really no reason to worry about those things. Just do them as you do most other things.

Learn what has to be done, outline the steps to do it, and carry it through. At this point, what if he does point and say " she did the D."

I suspect that anyone who knows you also know he left you fof OW, so at this point that would not matter to people that care about you.

As to what he is thinking, by now, I admit I can't understand his mind. Fog is not logical.

We are in pretty good shape here, W is progressing as she should, and the rest of us just cope.
What's that saying?
"It's not always home sweet home - so adjust."

SS

Hi

I spoke to my Pastors wife yesterday. They have supported me in prayer throughout the last 18 months, and will support me in any decision I make, including going for a dv as they feel I have done all I possibly can to try to reconcile my marriage. They also feel I shouldn't continue to put my life on hold as God made me to be a helpmeet and I deserve better than what has happened! So- I sent H an email asking him to communicate with me about the child support- I gave him until Friday or I would approach the necessary legal agencies. He sent an email by return- stating he was considering what would be a fair figure. So now I am abck to waiting- but feeling closer than ever to filing for dv- I think H is deliberately setting out to push me to make the decsion as he will feel exonerated if I do the dving!

Jante

Hi J,
Hope you are well today, and that your sun tan is coming along nicely so you will be ready for your world tour this summer.

In business I have had to learn how to cut down on the phone tag, and now the e-mail tag so that I get things done with the least amount of calls. .

Once I may have done it like this:

" We had a shortage on our order, please call me back to talk about it. "

Now I usually do it like this:
" We received order number 2297320 today and we were short two pair of gloves. They are style number 5329 in medium and we will deduct the price of them from the invoice when we pay it unless you call to tell me differently."

It may be that you can change the way you say things to T so that if he doesn't respond by a specified time you can go ahead and finish up with out his answering. Something like this:

" I still have those boxes we discussed, and I will keep them until March first. If you haven't picked them up by then I will understand that to mean you no longer want them and I will donate them to the salvation army."

I am sure you could word it much better than I could. Perhaps it would also work with the other business you have with him.
" If you don't reply with a figure for child support payments by March 1st, I will have my solicitor contact you."

Remember, I come up with many ideas, but they are just ideas.

Thanks for the support you give LIR, she can use friends right now.

If you are doing as well as you make it look, I am happy for you. If not, well, I pray for you each day no matter what.

SS

Thanks SS,
It may well be that I have left things too open ended with H. but I will wait until Saturday- see if I have any response then follow up with your ideas. Hope your w continues to make a speedy but thorough recovery.

I am doing well- in fact I realised today when returning from a conference just how much i have grown and become emotionally stable in the last 6 months.

Jante

Well J,
You seem to be doing very well to me also. Much more sure of yourself than last spring. You don't worry as much about ........ seems to me you don't worry as much about anyting.

I hope you know that I wrote those samples in kind of an abrupt manner, but they were just samples. You, as kind as you are, would do a much better job of it if you were to write something like that to T.

I'm thinking that today will be a little easier, This last few weeks has been a lot of work. I really admire you gals that do it all, I really do.

SS

It's not in your H's interest to put forth child support figures. He most likely would prefer to continue paying you less than you should receive. Your acceptance of the situation allows him to stay in denial. He doesn't even really have to face the fact that he's underpaying, because you have been taking the money without much complaint.

The interactions will be negative if you insist on your rights. Because your H, like most WH, set his affair up so as not to pay much of a price for it. He sees his kids when he feels like it, and drops in for a bit of family time. He hasn't had to suffer through a Christmas without his kids. He has you with your life on hold- you've made it clear you'll wait for him, that you don't want to break up the marriage. He hasn't had to deal with a new man in your and your sons' life, (although he may well not care). As long as you go along with his plans and ideas, he's happy.

When you make moves to change the situation, to enact consequences, such as making him move his stuff out, collecting the proper amount of child support, he won't like it. Especially because this is new behavior for you. Steel yourself and know that you will have to face his displeasure. He will show you displeasure expecting you to back down- which you have done in the past. DON'T.

Think of it this way. You tell your son he must clean up his room by Friday- you are tired of him leaving his mess for you to clean up. If he doesn't you'll take away his computer games. What is going to work best? Son doesn't clean up the room, so you give him more time, hoping he will ultimately do it? Or- you take away the computer games. Son will b$%ch and moan and whine initially. He will tell you what a mean, horrible mom you are. It will be unpleasant and negative. But, if you stand FIRM, what will ultimately happen- Eventually your son will get the message and he will start following your rules. Now, apply the same logic to your interactions with H, since he is acting at a less mature level than your son at this point.

Remember, J, God helps those who help themselves! I am glad you are feeling strong and like you've come so far! Keep up the positive mental attitude! Good luck with the steps you are taking to stand up for yourself!

And don't wait on him. If you say- you have until Friday and then I will contact a solicitor, then give him until Friday and not a day more.

Believe me- he won't file for divorce- no matter what he says. It's not just a gambit to blame you for the failure of the relationship. I've explained my reasons for this thinking before. Just know that, when you decide you're tired of being married to a man who is living in flagrant adultery- it will be up to you to change the situation. NOT YOUR H.

I don't think you have to blame yourself. Your H has been committing adultery for TWO YEARS. He has made NO effort to keep or heal your marriage. That does not entitle him to keep his designation as your husband. You have given him far more consideration than he deserves.

I couldn't have said that near as well as espoir did, and I think she's right.

SS

Thanks SS and Espoir- I know you are both right- its just that hard part of putting it into practice.

Jante

Hi

Its a year since I first posted here. It has me thinking about what has changed and what hasn't.

I am a different person, more content, stronger and happy with my own company.
However my rel with H is if anything worse- this time last year we spent time together as friends. We rarely do that anymore. I feel that what little I had left with him is gone- he is a strnger now who visits his children and 'invades' my space once a week. Despite that he is still my H and I still don't know what I want the future to hold.

Jante

Actually having posted the above I realise I do know what I want the future to hold- I want tout of the m. But I want it done in such a way that my children and others can't blame me for the dv. I know I have to take the bull by the horns and so will pray for strngth to do the right thing.

Jante

Any rational adult, meaning your friends, your family, your community will not blame you for the dv. Your husband has abandoned you, in order to live in adultery, for two years. You've done everything you could to encourage him to come home, to heal the marriage. You've done alot more than most women would have. However your husband has shown no change of heart.

I don't think Plan B would work at this time. Too much time has passed, and your H has really disconnected from the family and has forged a life for himself elsewhere with another woman. I think Plan B can be effective as a sharp shock when the WS first moves out. It throws them completely into the arms of the OP, and cuts them off completely from the BS and what the BS has to give. That's when the WS has a chance to turn back and overcome the addiction, when they realize the OP isn't what they thought.

I think that too much time has passed. J's H has a new life he has created without Jante. He's set up a lifestyle he seems content with. He doesn't seem like he's contemplating coming back. In fact, his offhand mentions of OW to J from time to time sounds like he's telegraphing to her: OW is in my life. Don't forget it. Most importantly, it doesn't sound like he has learned or grown particularly.

Plan B could just be too confusing. If J gets divorced, she needs to have a working relationship with her H. So perhaps it is best to continue to be calm and reasonable- while maintaining FIRM boundaries.

Do whatever you have to do to figure out visitation and child support- the way it has to happen and the way you want it to happen. DON'T expect your H's help on this. He will prefer to evade his responsibilities- paying you less than you should get, and visiting when he feels like it for as long as he feels like. He will resist any other arrangement. Still, you've made some progress with this- if I recall, you made him and OW take the children for part of the summer?

I don't think your children will blame you for a D. They can see the situation clearly. But talking about it with the children is always a good idea. Have you ever brought up the topic of divorce to them? Have they ever mentioned it?

Thanks Espoir for so clearly outlining what i knew in my heart. I haven't mentioned dv with the children recently, but in the dim and sitant past did say I had no intention of dving!! However I sense they are no longer as bothered so will carefully mention it to them and guage their reaction. Jante

When you mention it to them, be careful not to bring it up in such a way that you are asking for their approval. You are an adult and your life decisions are not really for your children to determine. Know that your children will probably not ever really be in "favor" of divorce at this age. However, when they are adults they will understand.

You might open it up more in terms of saying, gee I don't think Dad will ever move back with us. They have probably already figured that out for themselves. The first step is to acknowledge with them that the family structure has been altered permanently. Acknowledge the sadness in that. Let them talk about their feelings if they are able to express themselves. Then point out that everyone is doing their best to adapt and adjust to the new situation. Say you know it is very hard. Talk about the positives,if you can think of any they will relate to- while acknowledging the negatives. Meaning the positives that both their parents love them and care for them. That you will always be there for them. Try to be honest and open.

The next step might be to say, you know, we're really like a divorced family, and that's the situation we've been adapting to. Make it clear that it's just a matter of the legal paperwork- that their parents are now living as "divorced". Emphasize that the situation will not really change much once that paperwork goes through.

I don't think you really need to get into who files you or your H. It's probably enough to alert them to the fact that eventually their parents will in fact be legally divorced. Link it as a result of two parents who don't live together and share their lives together- well, divorce is a natural consequence.

Remember, your kids know who moved out.

Hi
Sorry Espoir did the talking before reading your post! I have spent the last week really considering my options and where I want to be in another 2 years- it is just 2 years this coming week since he chose to leave us. Having decided that my life had been on hold re rel. for long enough I took the bull by the horn tonight and discussed my possible going for a dv with the children. I explained how I felt- in simple terms and asked how they would feel if I dvd their dad. They all said they felt that it would make no difference to them as he is so rarely around already- and I said I would to make as little change as possible from my point of view.
The next thing is to speak to H about my plans- I don't think this is an appropriate time to email him, but will let him know my plans and then make an appointment with a solicitor tomorrow. I feel so calm about this, and the decision has come after a lot of soul searching not from a moment of emotional anger.

As far as the children were concerned it was more a case of explaining how I felt- I did let them know I would bedoing the dving- I felt they needed to understand why. They are growing up and feel as it affects them tehy should know.

Jante

Hi again-
Spoke to H. Told him I planned to see a solicitor to start dv proceedings on grounds of adultery and citing OW as co respondant. H silent at first so I just let the silence hang. Then he came back at me wanting to know why i wouldn't just go for dv on separation terms. Told him that as far as I was concerned the only grounds for dv were adultery so that was what I needed to cite for my own peace of mind. He said then that I had to do what I wanted to do, but amended it to not what I wanted but 'had' to do, but wished I wouldn't mud rake!!!! He thought it would be less traumatic for everyone if I went for separation. I asked 'less traumatic for who' certainly not for me and he had made his choices, I had given him every oppportunity to change his mind and return home but that I now needed closure to move on. He finished by saying -'then see your solicitor!!" So I said goodbye and put the phone down. Tomorrow I make the appointment. He was definitely rattled!

Watch this space
Jante

I think that if you need the adultery grounds for your own piece of mind, then go for it. Harley often recommends that spouses file on those grounds. I know when my H was waffling, post Dday, I mentioned to him that I could file for D on grounds of adultery. He was shocked. Why would he be though- it's exactly what was causing our M to break up!

I don't think that your intention is to mud rake. Isn't the issue that your H has not filed for D, but lives as D'd. You made it clear that you did not want D. Filing on these grounds makes it clear that you were forced into it by your H's behavior. You take your marriage vows seriously and you are making a statement that it is adultery that has led you to file. The only people who will be "traumatized" is your H and OW-they have to face up to what their behavior really is. Still, check and see what your solicitor thinks.

I am sure your H is rattled! He's not used to you standing up for yourself.

I am wishing you wisdom and peace during this time. Wishing you calm strength in dealing with adversity.

<small>[ February 23, 2003, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: espoir ]</small>

Hi Espoir- spoke to a solicitor today- totally at peace about it and no emotion what so ever. Have instructed him to start the proceedings. He has advised checking if H is likely to contest because being 2 years soon if he would contest the adultery charge it would be better to go for sparation. However I still want the adultery reason and so hope that he will honour his word and consent to the charge. It will also be easier if wer can settle the finances amicably. There is no need in thisd country for CSA involvement unless I am claiming benefits. So will talk to h later this evening and see what response I get.

Jante

Dear Jante,

I am sorry I haven't been able to post - with everyone home for half-term last week, very little privacy. I have tried to read where I could.

I just wanted to let you know that I think you are doing the right thing, and I think you have handled the conversation with your boys, and the conversation with H beautifully. All credit to you for keeping your cool with H, and being composed and loving with the boys. They may later reveal emotions they are not right now aware of, but I think the way you have handled the separation will give them respect for you in the long run. They will be able to see that you gave their father a long lead and he is the one who refused to climb back up it.

You sound strong and calm, and I am sure H is rattled, but as espoir said, for your own peace of mind, you do what feels right for you. I am glad to see you acting on what you feel is right. I think you can't file for adultery if the affair has been over for more than 6 months, or if you are still living together and the affair has been ongoing with your knowledge for more than 6 months. But since he started this affair while still living with you, moved out and is still living with her, I think you can still file on the grounds of adultery. I may be wrong, though.

I just wanted to let you know that I think you are doing very well, and are doing the right thing.

LIR

Hi J,

Glad you are at peace, wish I knew everthing, but that's not likely.

Keep saying your prayers and doing what you feel is right.

I have felt for quite some time that you were above average, still do.

SS

Hi and thanks for the encouragement everyone. The solicitor sees no reason why I can't file on adultery as long as he won't contest. He won't if I don't name his OW so I have agreed to that. He is now beginning to push me over finance and having just chatted to him he is making me feel the baddy for asking for what is my legal right. To keep costs down we need to agree our finances but if he is going to make me feel bad I think I had best let the solicitor do the work.

Thanks again for all your prayers, I appreciate them and know I am acting in the only possible way for me at the moment.

Jante