kily:

That's a good point, and one I think I'm trying to be careful with. I will think about it some more.

This morning, I woke up about 4am and couldn't stop crying. Why now? I thought. My W woke up and asked me what was wrong, and we started a long convo about everything that we're going through, but I wanted to make it clear again that for me dealing with the house rebuild is miniscule in relation to dealing with her A. I think she at least finally gets THAT, though she probably did before now.

I was going to post this morning that, based on the general layout of the conversation, I figured I was pretty much well done, and ready to suggest that we talk about DV. But then, as I was in the shower and she was getting ready to leave, she came in and told me "Thank you for being so honest and open with me this morning. I really wanted to tell you that I appreciate it." I told her "you're welcome" and "you're worth it" or something along those lines, kissed her, and she left. So, it looks like another one of those heavy discussions where we talk about our hurts, what love means to each of us, what we believe about M and commitment, what went wrong and how we wish we could turn back the clock, and stuff along those lines, where I feel like I can't do this anymore but we make up and it looks like a progress step after all.

But, BOY is it exhausting!
-Qfwfq

<small>[ February 13, 2003, 09:59 AM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

"Thank you for being so honest and open with me"....

Why have we been hitting ~Q~ over the head with the 2X4 all along???? .... because ~Q's~ tendency to hide uncomfortable feelings is a major LB!

By George .... I think I'll send Mrs. ~Q~ a bouquet of long-stemmed 2X4's for Valentines Day!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Pepper! Don't you DARE! She'll use them up in one hour!!!!

Besides, with the construction going on around here, there are plenty of 2x4s laying around, many of them with long, rusty nails sticking out all over! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

It's so hard, this "radical honesty" stuff. Not because I don't know it will be rewarding, but because the line between honesty and education is very thin.

In a way, though, I have been honest with her all along about how I feel, like when stating my boundaries. This is pretty much the first time she's thanked me for it, going out of her way to come back in the house to do so before leaving for work. Before, like in December, she just got angry and clammed up. ...so did I, for that matter.

What we talked about:

*rehash of the past, like why didn't I do something 12 years ago? Answer, I can't fix 12 years ago now. I can't even remember a lot of it.

*her hurt at being called a liar, cheat, and theif. Like I said before, I don't remember the theif part, and I apologize for calling her a liar and a cheat, but if the foo $h!+s? I won't call her those names again.

*When I told her that her comment to me that "getting M'd and having kids" was her biggest mistake, she said she didn't say that. Her biggest mistake was giving into SF with me 27-28 years ago, when she wasn't ready. She did say that at the time she didn't think it was a big deal. I remember it differently, though.

*She won't have SF with me now because she thinks that it doesn't mean anything. I can't have it without meaning! So, I'll wait until we can make more progress and understanding. She's felt for years that our M has been based on SF and financial and family obligations.

*She insists she won't ever stop caring for RM. I said I understand. She asked me if I expect that if she simply stops seeing or talking to him that she'll just stop caring? I said, no, but the feelings will eventually fade. They can't, though, until she stops talking to him. That's why their A lasted so long, they kept jerking each other back into the A by trying to be "friends."

*She said she understands now my comment from a few months ago when I said "I won't live in a loveless M". What I meant is that I won't be M'd to someone who's affections are divided between me and an OM. She says this is why she figures she may just have to be alone.

*She doesn't know what she wants, but is very disillusioned with M. After the convo, I felt pretty tired of all this, and was thinking, while she was in the shower, of filing for DV sometime this spring if she can't send RM a NC letter.

Then, like I said in the post above, she came in and said thank you...

I still feel pretty neat. Goes to show you not to make rash decisions for some time after a conversation like that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

-ol' Qfwfq

"long rusty nails"

Get a tetanus booster .... you may need protection.

I want to hit you myself for thinking "DV" as a knee-jerk response whenever things tighten your sphincter! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Take deep breaths ....I may come back and hit you with more..... like I said.... tetanus shot may be in order.

(Not really. ILY ~Q~ like a big AKA "older" sister... you big-dum-roc-head-man)

<small>[ February 13, 2003, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepp:

Okay, I'll work on not thinking it. At least I'm not saying it.

And you HIT TOO HARD! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' Qfwfq

"and you hit too hard"

I'm just gettin' started! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Pepp:

I somehow sensed that! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Thanks, got to run in to work now!

-ol' Qfwfq.

WOW

What a thread <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

I just read the entire 10 pages in one go after identifying with a comment you made on another thread Q.

So much of the way you and your W are reflects my own M. And the whole co-dependency thing - a completely new spin on a concept I had dismissed after reading a book about it. The way it has been expressed here though has got me seeing traits of co-dependency in both me and my W.

So much of it fits - and indeed one of the the big problems has always been my control which I've been working on since D-day.

Don't want to thread-jack and have so much to think about. Thank you all.

bowd

Hi bowd!

I'm glad you could find something useful in all this! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I don't know why, but I'm not having a good day today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

-Qfwfq

What we talked about:......................
*her hurt at being called a liar, cheat, and theif. Like I said before, I don't remember the theif part, and I apologize for calling her a liar and a cheat, but if the foo $h!+s? I won't call her those names again.
How about not any negative names? Is this why she was afraid of convo's? You must be improving for her to thank you for the convo.

*She won't have SF with me now because she thinks that it doesn't mean anything. I can't have it without meaning! So, I'll wait until we can make more progress and understanding. She's felt for years that our M has been based on SF and financial and family obligations.
So, can you see reasons why she would think this, or is it a smoke screen to cover her sins?
A little of both?

*She said she understands now my comment from a few months ago when I said "I won't live in a loveless M". What I meant is that I won't be M'd to someone who's affections are divided between me and an OM. She says this is why she figures she may just have to be alone.
Lots of retorts come to mind here, but we are dealing with emotion, not logic, so none of them would do any good. This is also where I wonder how long you can give her.

She doesn't know what she wants, but is very disillusioned with M.
I would bet she is disillusioned because she doesn't understand where her bad feelings are coming from. Sounds like she assigns blame to the M when really they are caused by the betrayal of the M. A simple saying from my youth: " you can't do bad, and feel good." And she can't. Only thing is, she doesn't want to hear about it, does she.
Maybe she does know, and maybe she doesn't feel worthy of the M any longer.

After the convo, I felt pretty tired of all this, and was thinking, while she was in the shower, of filing for DV sometime this spring if she can't send RM a NC letter.
Then, like I said in the post above, she came in and said thank you... I still feel pretty neat. Goes to show you not to make rash decisions for some time after a conversation like that!
That's why you need to look at the good from time to time and realize you are making progress.
Pepper is right, no knee jerk responses.

I'll leave the name calling to Pepperband, she is so much better at it than I am.
( Pep, that is a joke, I am not being sarcastic!)

SS

<small>[ February 13, 2003, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

Okay, I'll take a whack at this even though I'm not in the best mood right now...

"How about not any negative names?"

I honestly don't think I've called her names at all since D-day. When the "liar, cheat, and [allegedly] thief" remark came out, it was in reference to the Aees, not her specifically.

"Is this why she was afraid of convo's? You must be improving for her to thank you for the convo."

I don't think it's why she's afraid of convos. I think Pepper may be right and she's afraid that *I* am afraid of the convos, or that I'll get angry (and I haven't that much, really, since about March or April last year - don't laugh! I *have* raised my voice a bit in reaction to her angry outbursts, but the one in January, in particular, was all her). But that sounds like a blame-fest, and I'm tired of those, and I'm tired of rehashing them. AS to whether I'm improving and what part that played in her remark this morning... I wonder if it's more a sign that SHE's improving?

"So, can you see reasons why she would think this, or is it a smoke screen to cover her sins?
A little of both?"

I don't know, SS. Even after D-day, she said the SF was "never the problem." Now, since we're not having it, I feel like it's become one. And I just remembered why this occurred to me, and why it hurts so much. 20 years ago, just as her EA with a coworker ended, she commented to me "It's not fair that you can have SF with me and OM can't." I reminded her of that a few months ago, but she doesn't remember saying it at all. ...you can imagine where my imagination is going right now.

"Lots of retorts come to mind here, but we are dealing with emotion, not logic, so none of them would do any good. This is also where I wonder how long you can give her."

Depends. I want to give her however long it takes, because I love her. I just don't know if that's what she wants. And since she says she doesn't know what she wants, I wonder if I need to be prepared to move on? Damn, this sucks.

"I would bet she is disillusioned because she doesn't understand where her bad feelings are coming from. Sounds like she assigns blame to the M when really they are caused by the betrayal of the M."

Possibly. But if this is the case, it's buried beneath several other serious obstacles that need to be overcome. I'm not always sure I can do it without help, and she won't go to anybody for help.

"A simple saying from my youth: " you can't do bad, and feel good." And she can't. Only thing is, she doesn't want to hear about it, does she."

No, she doesn't. And I kept being told I shouldn't badger her with it. Heck, I know that won't accomplish anything, but when I feel like I do now I don't see anything fundamentally improving anytime soon anyway.

"Maybe she does know, and maybe she doesn't feel worthy of the M any longer."

I honestly can't tell.

"That's why you need to look at the good from time to time and realize you are making progress.
Pepper is right, no knee jerk responses."

I honestly believe I've done pretty well with these since July. My knee jerking has all been done digitally, here. I can't pretend that I'm not having a hard time with this now.

-Qfwfq

Q-

After you had your convo with W, how did you feel?

Were you scared, uncomfortable, feeling closer to her, panicking?

It sounds to me that W is reaching out. After all, she was planning that hotel trip for your birthday. If she didn't love you, she wouldn't do this....

Pepper is right. You are feeling VULNERABLE because you opened yourself up. Radical honesty is VERY deifferent from educating because it's about what YOU feel, not what you think....As long as you aren't expecting ANYTHING when you share your FEELINGS, you will NEVER be educating someone.

Vulnerability is SCARY because it leaves you in a position to get hurt. Your W didn't hurt you, instead she was concerned. She listened. She THANKED you for LETTING her inside of your heart.

One reason why I suggested that you let the ILY thing go is that you are placing so much on words. You mentioned that your W has never been one to be very expressive with ILY. Why would that be different now? Wouldn't it mean MORE to you if she just said the words unprovoked? The more you look for her to do this, the more frustrated and hurt you get. It starts a cycle that is unecessary and painful in the end.

Okay, I guess I'm educating you....sorry.

The fact is, you want to give up because it's easier than facing your fear. Vulnerabiltiy is the key to getting through this....

I'll check in with you tomorrow and see how you are....

Smiles and hugs to you....

Today ... your heart breaks today because you are not feeling your W's love .... you are not focused on the past. Today is what hurts.

Make sure she knows that. Be honest about this.

Be clear and simple and non-analytical.

"W, please hold me,I am so afraid of losing you. Hold me , I am frightened of losing the most important person in the world."

kily:

"After you had your convo with W, how did you feel?
Were you scared, uncomfortable, feeling closer to her, panicking?"

I was scared, sad, uncomfortable, feeling lost. Then, when she came and thanked me for the honesty, I felt very good for a while.

"It sounds to me that W is reaching out. After all, she was planning that hotel trip for your birthday. If she didn't love you, she wouldn't do this...."

I know. I really do. I guess today I really have had to come to grips with the fact that, from my end at least, our lack of communication most of the time is due in a very large part to my fears. They're a lot more formidable than I would have thought.

"Vulnerability is SCARY because it leaves you in a position to get hurt. Your W didn't hurt you, instead she was concerned. She listened. She THANKED you for LETTING her inside of your heart."

I know. But then the fears came back.

"Wouldn't it mean MORE to you if she just said the words unprovoked? The more you look for her to do this, the more frustrated and hurt you get. It starts a cycle that is unecessary and painful in the end."

Yes, it does mean more. And I try not to expect it, but when she goes from saying it with obvious sincerity a few months ago, to responding with "Thank you" a month later, to not responding at all when I say ILY to her, well, there goes that cycle.

"Okay, I guess I'm educating you....sorry."

;o) Wouldn't be necessary if I didn't feel so damned stupid right now!

"The fact is, you want to give up because it's easier than facing your fear. Vulnerabiltiy is the key to getting through this...."

I sure hope so, because I feel like a mess right now.

Thanks,
-Qfwfq

Pepper:

"Today ... your heart breaks today because you are not feeling your W's love .... you are not focused on the past. Today is what hurts."

Yes. Today is when I realized how little I really understand TODAY. I have no idea where we are, really.

"Make sure she knows that. Be honest about this.
Be clear and simple and non-analytical."

I will try.

-Qfwfq

Pepper:

I missed this before:

""W, please hold me,I am so afraid of losing you. Hold me , I am frightened of losing the most important person in the world.""

It's true.
-Qfwfq

I tried to tell my W about what I realized yesterday. Last night and this morning. She was too stressed out about things that are happening at work.

Time to slow down.

-Qfwfq

I forgot to tell you (because I forgot I had said I'd do this):

When I got home last night, my W said "you didn't send me the stuff you said you were going to this morning." I couldn't remember what it was, I was so focused on my "fear" thing. But I had said that, if she wanted, I could send her copies of the posts about co-dependency. She said sure. So, she was wondering why I hadn't sent it along. I guess that I still think it would be "educating" her, telling her what *I* think may be *wrong* with her, which isn't a good thing to do. But since she's now asked for it???

I dunno. Just tired.
-Qfwfq

Q-

Not time to slow down, just time to step back and live for a time.

You have REALLY made a lot of progress over the last few days.

As StillSeeking said to me:

"A bright light focused too sharply will burn up what it is focused upon. Perhapse changing your focus to something else will let things cool off."

It's time to just work on you fear. Try to get to a place where you understand the root of it. Yes, you're afraid of LOOSING you wife. We all are afraid of loosing the ones we love.

Why are you afraid to let her see what you feel?
Why are you fearful of showing that you have those kinds of feelings?
Are you terrified that she will see you as a weak person for feeling what you do?

One thing that your situation reminded me of was that during the time that I was in my darkeness, in the days when the EA began, I remembered that I didn't feel NEEDED at all by X. He was very self sufficient, always taking CARE of everything. This was to the point where I felt like there was no reason for me to "BE".

I wondered if this was something that your wife might be feeling when you hold back your true thoughts and emotions? I know that X would not share anything but his ANGER with me at this point, and I truly felt cut off and not wanted because of this. Is this possibly happening with you?

Just some things to think about...

Happy Valentine's Day.

kily:

I think it very easily could be what's happening within me.

But last night I tried to be more open and tell her about my fears. And I did, but they evoked no response at all.

She asked me about the co-dependency posts, and why I hadn't sent them to her. (should I????????????).

We ate dinner and watched TV with my son, then we went to bed. I tried to talk about it then, but she was tired. She did talk about problems at work, and things going "right", like getting a box of samples back from RM from the last contract. (incidentally, she referred to him by name this time, rather than "the **** analyst", like recently - is she testing to see whether I'm going to be "okay" with him?). So, when I tried to talk about my fears, she didn't say much, if anything. So I concentrated on the moment, held her, and she fell asleep.

I actually slept pretty good this time, and I think she did, too, but work was still top on her mind in the morning, so when I wanted to talk about us, she wasn't responsive.

I felt, in a way, that she didn't feel I was really being open, because she was clearly disappointed that I hadn't sent her the codependency posts.

Groan,
-Qfwfq