Deluded. He said he'd sent a NC letter weeks ago? Ask to see it. If he can't produce it, ask him to write it again and send it while you watch.
Valentines day? I think he is Bull Shi--- about what he was doing.
You said you told him he could stay married and have her too? Wrong message to send.
As long as he thinks it's ok to have both, he will!
There is an old saying Shi- or get off the pot and that's what you need to tell him.
If he truly is wanting to save the marriage, it's time he's accountable for every min of his time!
As Dr.Phil said today to WH, men who cheat, Time for them to be honest and quit keeping people in limbo so they can get on with their lives!
Sometimes I think some women on here aren't tough enough. But, then I could be wrong.
Best way to know if something is yours is to let it go. If it comes back, it was meant to be.
But some seem to allow these jerks to have it all. Screw them tonight and OW tomorrow night.
The men use the excuse, yes I've heard it too, that they must be making us unhappy so they should divorce. More lalaland bull S.
It's a cop out to try to split. Get the little woman begging them not to go, give them anything they want.
When a man is in a marriage for years, it can't be because he was unhappy the whole time unless he's a mental reject! Would have to be brain dead!
BTW, when they say it's such good sex, it's not! it's just new like when everyone is first together. Give him enough rope to let it become old familar and he'll be tired of her too.
I'm so sick of the better sex issue, excuse, blah blah. Hell, I've stood on my head to give great sex and it's the best he ever had, but still cheated with a Woman who couldn't do anything! And had a mess for a figure. Go figure what is wrong with a mans head.
Set some rules, stick by them, and quit giving in until he comes clean and proves he's through with her. Because I don't think he is yet!
LouLou

Devon

It seems to me that your H is in the throes of the Thinker / Feeler / Will tussle that is very well explained in
BrokenButNotCrushed's thread:

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=28;t=002029

He feels guilty, but wanting to end the A is a different issue from his excitement at doing it. Ultimately, Will has to make a decision without input from Thinker or Feeler. I'm not explaining it well - but BBNC does!

It seems to me that he does love you, and doesn't want to lose you, but that this has become a straight fight between you and OW, both of whom have vested interests and purposeful agendas. He doesn't really have to take either of you completely seriously, because he knows that you're both emotional and desperate (and OW will be desperate too - after all, he's still with you, and most men leave within six months if they're going to leave at all). Perhaps what you really need is a third party to impose some impartial persepective on the situation? I know your H has refused MC - would it be possible for your next 'push' to be for MC, to offer him the alternative of separation or MC? Have you tried REALLY making the argument for this, rather than pushing up against the barrier of NC?

Whether the MC is much good or not, MC does force the WS to face up to what they're doing, with someone who they can't distract with personal stuff and emotional diversions. My H is pretty 'smooth' in MC, but quite often the MC will gently ask him something, and he will squirm and fidget and look extremely uncomfortable. It's not so easy for them to hold onto the rosy fantasy of true love, once they have to analyse and explain their actions and impulses.

Be gentle with yourself, Devon. Your mother has just died, and none of us is Superwoman.

Thanks Bowd, TogetherAlone and ladyLou for your valued thoughts.
I have certainly thought about imposing an ultimatum on H-either MC or separation. I have not done it so far because I don't want to give an ultimatum that has an outcome I fear-separation-but also because it seemed to me that there is no point in going to MC if he is stilll in the fog.
My poor H is very confused and really doesn't know what he wants. We are now in the ridiculous limbo of him sleeping in the spare room every night,there is no contact of any kind between us physically,and yet we are nice to each other,he asked me last night if I would like him to order some of my favourite wine,he complimented me this lunchtime on my home made pizza(hey,I'm clutching at straws here!)But he didn't phone me at all yesterday.But when he arrived home last night he offered to get our daughter some dinner whilst I went to get the takeaway and suggested I drive his car(an Audi TT-i love it).
Neither of us have instigated a R talk since Tuesday night. I thanked him on Thurs for the pleasant meal on Wed night and said I would like to do it again some time.
Limbo or what?
I can't bring myself to be mean to him-achieves nothing. I am reading SAA. I know I should counsel with SH but I think I don't want to as I fear he will tell me it's time, after 9 months, to Plan B.
TogetherAlone,thanks for posting the link to BBNC's thread-that thinker/feeler/will analogy is my H's problem exactly I think. I really think he doesn't want to actually move out and be with OW-she is alone now having split with her man at New Year. So yes,she must be desperate-the A has been going on for 15 months now and he is still at home!
BTW LadyLou-he showed me the NC letter at New Year and I posted it the day I left to go to Australia. He just let her ignore it/ignored it himself.
I think I am going into autocruise mode-but I am planning for MY future and getting my home the way I want it. With or without him,"I Will Survive"(anyone want to dance round a pile of handbags with me?)

Deluded.

bump

I need some help please. We had a bad night last night. I know he is struggling to stop contact with OW-i think part of him wants to but he can't and part of him won't for all the usual reasons.....
I don't want to initiate separation and then Plan B just yet. But I can tell it is ongoing as he gets so angry when he thinks I've told anyone. Says no-one else needs to know.

He did a NC letter 6 weeks ago which I saw and sent. He says he sent her a NC email a week ago,didn't think to copy me in. Probably because he still says he loves her in it-that's a guess.

I want to write a letter asking him to initiate the following to help him with NC....to block her email address,put all his calls through to his secretary and get her to hold his bleep, change his cellphone number. I also want to state clearly in the letter that if he has contact again I will initiate separation. can i make doing all that a condition of not ejecting him from our home now? I have avoided ultimatums so far. This way he can think about it. could I even make MC a condition, but put a long time lag on it...(ie he doesn't have to come yet but in 6 weeks I will expect him to)

I still have hope for him, still think he loves me,he hasn't left voluntarily, we still have fun together sometimes but he can't/won't give her up.

I would be very grateful for some of that accumulated wisdom out there.

Deluded

Devon

I gave my H an ultimatum, that if he hadn't established his side of NC to my satisfaction by July, one year from d-day, I would end the marriage. I told him that I loved him, that I wanted our R to work with all my heart, but that I couldn't deal with the presence of another woman in his life - that for my own safety, against what my heart might yearn for, I would have to move on without him.

The far-off deadline helped me to deal with the ongoing mess, where contact was frequent and irresistable. I felt that I was in control of myself, and had set my own boundaries. As WH agreed that one year was a more than adequate time to make his decision, he took it seriously.

However, I'm not sure that he believed that I would actually follow through on my threat. But in mid-January, I found that the latest piece of contact was too blatant and cheeky for me to bear; it just hurt too much. I asked him to leave. I felt that I needed a rest from all of this, a chance to decide what I really wanted, without this miasma suffocating me. So I reneged on July. This had the effect of reversing the polarity on our situation, and convincing him (and me) that I meant what I said. It crystallised his thinking very quickly, and his attitude to W changed dramatically. He has asked her not to contact him, and really seems to mean it this time.

This is not to say that NC will be maintained, or that I won't have to Take Steps in July, but I've made an important leap forward in my own self-confidence.

I read Love Must Be Tough by James Dobson, which really boils down to telling BSs to make their WSs respect them. I found that useful.

The big risk is that, having asked him to leave, even for a short time to let you clarify your own thoughts, he might not come back. You have to decide whether you want him with you under the terms that he's dictating.

Having said all that, every story is different - there's no one-size-fits-all answer of each of us here on MB. Only you know your H.

TA

Deluded,

not really sure what advice to give that is going to help you through this confusing time. Personally I dislike the word ultimatum - I find it has a way of biting back. Now please don't think that I mean you shouldn't set your own boundaries - and indeed tell your H quite clearly what your boundaries are. And if you choose to change those boundaries then that's your decision - just make sure you tell your H how and why.

I think probably the best thing you can do right now is to get some pro counselling. I know you are fighting shy of this in case they tell you to seperate. A few things to remember:
1. It is only advice - the decision is yours.
2. Steve Harley.
3. Steve Harley.

Just one session with SH helped clear up so much - and like you I was expecting him to recommend Plan B. He didn't although he did tell me to think out clearly how and under what circumstances I would go to Plan B. I think you are right not to rush into Plan B but with all the emotional ups and downs you run the risk of burning out.

PS. Steve Harley - it's easy for us brits to get an appt pronto given the time difference. Our afternoons are their mornings (ideal if your kids / H are out of the house in the day) or our eves are their afternoons (ideal if you work).

Thanks for the replies.

I am going to book a session with Steve Harley.I need expert help.After I read SAA I just felt if anything even more hopeless.I just cannot see my H ever agreeeing to the various rules,etc.
Last night I sat down with him and apologised for losing it and being so aggressive on Sat night. I was drunk and I had just watched our wedding video and I was very distressed-I woke him up and sceamed at him and hit him.I am not violent,would never NEVER NEVER condone that,can't believe I did it. H's view-he is disappointed in me, he is reconsidering leaving because he would never have thought I could be like that,the things I said must be the way I really feel because alcohol reveals the truth....ok even I know that's a load of baloney. But boy did it hurt.

So I suggested that we try to have a conversation about us without deliberately hurting each other and said him saying those things hurt me. He brought it up 4 times in the conversation. I pointed out that I was not going to raise the things that had hurt me-eg telling me he was going to meet a male drug rep and meeting OW instead in my favourite restaurant where he refused to go with me beacuse it was too far. I said I wouldn't raise it because it made him angry-he said it doesn't!

This time I kept my cool. He said he felt disappointed that I was telling people about his A and that he couldn't see how it would help and that it would drive him away if I kept doing it. Asked me if I had told anyone at work(his colleague's wife works with me)

So I ended the conversation by telling him that I was also considering separation. I suggest we have another talk in a few days and if he decides he is not leaving we can talk about how he can maintain NC. If he decides he is leaving we can negotiate arrangements.

Then I went to bed after ironing his shirts. And i told him he can come back to our bed if he wants to. And he did.

But it feels silly-we are both threatening to leave.It makes me as mad as a wet hen that he is angry about me telling people. And I very much regret hitting him. He would never be violent with me. I have learnt that I MUST avoid my triggers-he thinks MB is one of those so I must be careful.

Today I have decided to go to a conference in May and to really look after myself.

I really need a plan.I know,.....Steve Harley.
BTW I think this A is largely an EA-but he thinks she is his soulmate...

Anyone help,encourage,or scold me?

Hey Deluded
First of all thanks for the virutal vibes - well received over here in London. Looks like your WH is torn apart, fears to leave you for good, yet unable to committ to you.... have enough of that myself for the last 11 months. what to do? well, my track record isnt v. good in this respect, but the longer I play this game, the more I realise that there can only be NO CONTACT. you guys are likely to have problems in your marriage & relation but you cant even start solving them as long as OW is in the picture. This is a concious start he has to take - and you can support him in that. How to bring him to this "concious" decision? once you've found the magic secret, pleaaase would anyone let me know...?

PS- if I hear the word "soulmate" once more, my laptop flies straight out of the window.

I'm feeling so tired of all of this rubbish now....what on earth makes me think that anything is going to change? If I'm mean to him and LB he starts telling me how disappointed he is ...blah blah blah, if I'm nice to him he responds beautifully and still keeps going with OW....the only ray of light is that he told me how guilty he feels that she is alone now,living with no furniture, because of him...still doesn't seethat she's making demands but surely that must be a LB by OW,especially as she has apparently told him that she would be willing to move down to live with him and he told her it would be impractical!

I really feel more and more that PlanB is for me...but I also think my proud stubborn H will NEVER have the courage andhumility to ask me to come home....he expressed surprise at the weekend when I let slip that I might let him come back if he left....

Sigh.

Deluded

What's a girl to do? I go away for a couple of weeks and all sorts of stuff seems to be hitting the fan around here for my MB superstars.

Deluded, I am so sorry for this latest and again painful discovery. I think fixing an appointment with Steve H would be very beneficial for you. Whilst people here can support you, no one is really qualified to give you advice on your situation.

Your H may say any number of things about whether or not he would swallow his pride if you were to leave, but these are all very much ifs and buts. I always thought my H would forgive me one day, but the reality is it is highly unlikely. People do behave differently to difficult situations and you will only know how he will behave when that assumed situation becomes a reality.

I think you are currently faced with immense pressure and an incredibly difficult time. It is less than a month since your mum died, and to cap it all, your H has been continuing his A - you mentioned to me when you were away that you thought he was, and I think your gut feel is probably right. I also think you have given him ample opportunity and support to begin to put things right. How long can you continue as things are? You need a plan friend, however painful that may be for you, and Steve H would be best placed to help you work that out with your best interests at heart.

I am home now, you have my number call me if you want.

Thinking of you and wishing you well from freezing cold London (well it is compared to Thailand <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).
Lisa

Hello Lisa, welcome home. Be prepared to miss the sunshine for a while!

Well I had a bit of an epiphany last night. After calling a cautious truce on Sunday night ,a friend of ours had called and offered us a meal in a Michelin starred restaurant this Thursday night at his expense. We would only have to pay for a room as it is 2 hours drive away. He spoke to H first who passed me the phone saying"see what my better half makes of this idea". The friend told me that H thought it was a great idea and would prob be able to as he would be driving back from Cambridge(about 4 hours from where we live). So I said great and that we would see if we could make it. Then H told me he didn't know if the meeting was on and he was trying to rearrange it. He said he had been expecting a phone call on the Friday last week and would prob find out Mon. So yesterday I made arrangements for me to leave work early so I could drive straight there from work.

Last night I asked H at bedtime what he had managed to arrange. He said he didn't know if the Cambridge meeting had been rearranged as no one had phoned him. He then said" of course you know I have to be back for clinic at 0830 the next day). So in other words, he had allowed his friend to think he was keen, and me, knowing all along that he couldn't do it. I felt so very hurt and more than that, let down, disappointed. I didn't lose it though, just said "ok,I' ll tell friend we can't make it-but you need to learn to say no ". This came about 20mins aftr he had told me that he had spoken to his brother and discovered that the brother has just been sking where H is going in March. The impct suddenly hit me-this skiing thing is a meeting arranged so keen skiiers can get a cheap holiday. Sure they have a proper meeting but its a lot of fun too. H is also going to play golf in Spain for 5 days in April.

Here's the thing-he doesn't consider me at all. I have said several times I wanted to go skiing, said I would love to go with him,suggested we have a week's skiing. He doesn't want to do these things with me. And the restaurant thing this week-he made no attempt to arrange it-he could have phoned to see if the meeting was rearranged-hell he could have told them he couldn't make it,it's being arranged around him. But he didn't because doing something nice for me is low priority. He could have arranged to take the morning off work. He's got to take 2 weeks holiday between now and April 12th but when I asked him if hecould do that he said impossible to take at 3 days notice. But I've known him do his on call from a phone on a train hours away and he doesn't have a clinic Friday am, only office stuff.There would be another colleague there.

So now,I've realised that I cannot and don't trust him not to hurt me . That yes I do love him but now for the first time a feeling of hopelessness is setting in. He is going to be away such a lot in the next 2 months. I have asked, and offered to come with him but am always fobbed off. Is it because he hopes to see OW-probably. Is it because he just doesn't like me enough to want my company? Certainly.

I don't feel safe with him any more,can't trust him not to keep walking roughshod over me. I went to bed last night and he followed me up a few days later. He wanted to make love. For the first time since this all started I felt I couldn't, didn't want to-because I felt so hurt. There were no LB's I just didn't respond. Didn't move away either. Same this am. He insisted on making me a cup of tea and getting back in bed for 5mins, asked me what I was doing today, told me when I was dressed that he liked my sweater(he gave it to me). But the little things are meaningless. It's those big thoughtless LB's that he consistently does that are starting to erode away at what used to be "us".

There is a certain numbness too-and a great empty sadness inside me. And regret,terrible regret for my part in this, that I couldn't see it coming, that I couldn't save us,turn it around.

I have contacted the Counselling centre but quite honestly I think unless he has a major smack of reality right between his baby blues and agrees to some counselling, it's over for us. The saddest little words in the world.

Deluded

Dear Deluded,

I'm sorry to see you going through such pain. I often don't post to someone because I doubt my ability to give advice. But I do care.

It does seem to me that your H is giving you very mixed signals. Remember that he is confused himself, and he may not be being intentionally thoughtless. He is letting you down with regards to the kind of "quality time" you want to spend with him, but he doesn't appear to realize this. I think it would be a shame if you were to draw conclusions from these "clues" and then go to plan B on that basis, without letting him know.

I don't know if I am able to express this very well, but I will try. Someone pointed this out to me, in my struggles here on this forum and I found it helpful. Your needs are not being met, and its as if you test him, without his knowledge of the test. Then he fails, without knowing he is being tested. Right now, it seems there are many things you want and need from your H, which is natural and normal. You want NC, you want a commitment to restore your marriage, you need to be able to trust him, you want to be first (and only) in his life, you want quality time with him - you want him to want this with you, too. It seems to me that while one is in plan A, these are not things one can "demand". They are actually the things that one can set out as conditions for returning to the marital home after plan B, SHOULD he go and then decide to come back. But asking for them now, at this stage of the process, is demanding, and puts pressure on him. It drives him away, rather than brings him closer to you. I know how you must feel - its crazy-making when all you want is your marriage back, and you are in a place where you NEED the emotional support of your spouse. You are grieving.

But it seems to me that he is giving you so much attention in small ways, that it says he really does love you, and he is just terribly confused. Until he stops contact with the OW, his emotions will remain confused and he will not be CAPABLE of giving you what you need. Its such a good sign that he says she is making him feel guilty, and that he has told her it is not feasible for them to live together, even if she does move down.

I really think now is the time to plan A, plan A, plan A.

I do sympathize with you. I also hit my H, on the day after D-day no. 2. He has never let me forget that. And we have also been through 3 months of him sleeping in the guest room - from Oct-Christmas Day. We have overcome both those obstacles, more by sheer perseverance than anything else. At one point, I wrote him a letter - right after he moved into the spare room. This was on the advice of a psychiatrist friend. I apologized for anything I might have said or done which hurt him (there was something specific - for you, it would be blowing up when you had drunk too much, and hitting him). I then said that I didn't understand why he was doing what he was doing, but all that I wanted was to understand him and I asked him not to DO anything, take any action while we were in this traumatic emotional state. Not to make any rash decisions, but could we please just wait. I said that I still loved him and still believed that we could work things out.

We are now 4 months past that, and it is starting finally to feel as if we are in recovery. Last week, we had a talk and I told him this was not just about him, it was about me, too - and that I had asked God to show me my faults. I listed the faults which I acknowledged I had and what I felt I had done which damaged the way he felt about me. I wonder if you have done this with him. My H feels that this is so much about him, and that he is seen as "the bad guy". Its not. Its true that he has been abusive to me and its true that he has made stupid choices, but I have also done and said things that were hurtful to him and affected the way he felt about me. Me taking responsibility for my part in this seems to be what has finally tipped the balance towards recovery.

I hope this helps. I can hear the pain and suffering in your post, and I hope that you can take hope from what I have said. Quality time is also one of my biggest issues with my H - he is much like your H - he does not plan for time with me, but goes and does whatever he wants to do without a thought.

BTW - when I asked my H to leave in April of 2002, that was when he got himself into counselling. IF you decide to go to plan B, I would strongly advise making counselling a requirement to him staying.

Hope this helps.
LIR

Dear LIR

Thank you so much for your reply to my post-this day is particularly bleak and I can see no hope but your words have ignited maybe a spark again.

However-as soon as I had the first D Day, I went to Plan A-well,my version of it. I was very needy at first and begged him not to go-I did acknowledge-and have all along-that I had a large part to play in allowing this to happen. But he has not budged much from his position that it is all my fault. As I posted some months ago, he says he is in love with her,wasn't unhappy, just fell in love, and she and I are the only 2 women that he has ever done that with.

I even wrote him a letter about 3 weeks after D Day 1 acknowledging my part and apologising.
He still slept with her and romanced her on a conference with my letter in his case.

I have an appointment on Friday with SH(I think it's him) and one with an IC here on Thursday.

I have to tread water til then. But don't know if I have the heart to Plan A again-maybe I did it all wrong? But anyway,he is still in contact despite Mum's death and everything, and its now 9 months since D day. My one thought of consolation is that OW must be hacked off that he still hasn't left and I still haven't ejected him! And now she is alone! Let's hope if contact MUST continue that she starts LB'ing massively.I suspect he will see her next week as he is away for a night.

Thanks again LIR, and anyone else who is reading.Am I right in thinking that when you asked him to leave LIR, he didn't and negotiated to stay? I will try and read old posts of yours.

Deluded

<small>[ February 25, 2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: Deluded of Devon ]</small>

Bump.I can't stop LBing feel so bitter angry and hurt,can someone anyone see some hope in my situation?

Yes, Deluded, you are right - when I did ask my H to leave, that is when he saw the writing on the wall, and he "negotiated" in order to stay. There are times since then when I felt I wasn't tough enough, and should have asked for more commitment, but each situation is personal, depending on how much you have to lose by separating.

I haven't felt that I got from my H what I wanted by letting him stay - a commitment to our M, NC with OW, a recognition that EAs are wrong, transparency (he still has his cell-phone and e-mail privacy and thinks he is entitled to this), joint finances. What I did get was a commitment to counselling (individual for him) - he has tried to renege on this a number of times, the most recent being last night (I told him firmly last night that we had agreed the way forward was joint counselling and I still didn't see any other option). He also agreed to end his R with OW and said that while he had enjoyed having a R with someone where he didn't have any responsibility, what he really wanted was to "have fun with me", but that we would need to work on the problems we had. (This was a bit galling to hear, since I had been trying to "work" on our problems for years). I told him that he had destroyed my trust in him and that he would have to take concrete steps to restore my trust in him. And on that basis, we stayed together.

But it has been a rough road since then (end of March 2002). It has been an uphill battle to keep him in counselling, and a waiting game for me. Our problems are not necessarily the same as those between you and your H. He came home last night, not particularly happy with the counselor, says he thinks she is biased in my favour, and that he is getting tired of all this rehashing old stuff and doesn't like talking about personal problems in front of a stranger, but he thinks we should start going together next week because he's tired of going on his own. I could get really upset and worried about this - it looks like he is "stumbling" again, and ready to quit. But I think I have learned to be patient with him and take this resistance, for that is what it is, as a good sign.

Resistance rears its ugly head when progress is being made, when H runs up against something he doesn't want to hear, something he doesn't want to face. H is like a horse who baulks at going into the water. He runs when the going gets tough. I have to react to him calmly - if I were riding a horse, if I panicked and screamed, the horse would throw me off and run, wouldn't he? So I have to stay calm, and coax, and keep a firm grasp on the reins and push him carefully into the water. I said that I thought we were doing so well, didn't we have a good talk last week, didn't he think that was a good talk we had? Yes, he agreed it was a good talk. I said that it felt to me like we were finally moving in a positive direction and we should keep going forward. I said I didn't know of any other option other than joint counselling - we had agreed that already. I said also that I could understand why he felt that way about the counselor (whenever H expresses feelings of doubt, or anger, or frustration, I no longer argue with these feelings - I AGREE with everything he says - this validates his feelings, which is what he most needs in order to feel understood - if he feels understood, then he will feel that he can get close to me again). You see, it opens the door to him being able to get close to me again. All I can do is open the door - its up to him if he wants to come through it. If I keep disagreeing with him and arguing with him that he is wrong, then I keep slamming the door in his face.

I think one of the most effective things I have done is to say "I don't want something you don't want. I realize that you must have lost your feelings for me in order to have fallen in love with someone else, but your loss of feeling for me happened before I realized it. I have tried to deal with the things in myself that may have contributed to your loss of feelings for me, and that is all I can do. I really do not want to hold you to something that you don't want. So if you want a divorce you can have one. If you want to separate, we can do that. I accept it. Whatever it is I accept it. I really just want you to be happy."

I had to feel that acceptance in my heart before I was able to say it and mean it. When I did say it and mean it, it put the onus of deciding what he wanted on to him. He KNOWS I cannot accept him going on with me and having another woman too. I will not accept an "open marriage" - we are both practicing Catholics and both of us believe that is wrong. But I do accept that if he is not happy with me, that he is free to decide to go. If he stays, however, he will have to work on "us". That brings us back to being patient about working on "us" - I am leading the horse to water, but its up to him to decide whether or not he wants to drink. I can't force him.

I'm not sure if I have explained this way of thinking very well. My H's EAs never turned physical, although there was a lot of sexual chemistry in them. I sometimes think it would have been better if they had turned physical, because he would have then had some guilt about what he did. Right now he can still cling to the idea that he did nothing wrong, and that it is all my fault - I am so jealous I can't allow him to have "special friends". I think the fact that your H's affair turned physical puts an added dimension to it, obviously. The hurt and betrayal are greater, especially if the PA is continuing in the face of discovery.

As I understand it, plan A and plan B are strategies for separating the WS from the OP - and if plan A has not succeeded, then plan B must be considered. I don't think anyone really does a "perfect plan A". Its the continuing contact that keeps an affair going. I know this is how my own parents' marriage was eventually broken up by OW. Despite repeated attempts by my father to cut contact, she persisted, and eventually, my mother exploded, LB'ing bigtime and threw him out. My mother still feels that that was a mistake on her part. My father still blames my mother for divorcing him, even though he admits he was wholly in the wrong.

I hope something I have said has helped to give you hope. I have to go now as I am at work, but will check in again when I can.

Take care,
LIR

Dear Deluded -

I do feel for you - the anger, the hurt, the pain - on my thread, I have said that I think that I may have been able to handle things better had it not been that his EAs happened despite the deaths of my brother and my SIL. Backtracking a bit - my brother was schizophrenic and suffered liver failure due to the long-term psychiatric drugs he was on for 23 years - his final illness lasted a month, and he died at the end of May '01. I think H was already getting involved with OW1 before that, but even while all that was happening with my brother, H seemed to just get deeper and deeper with OW1 - I had to go to his funeral in the States first week in June, and our anniversary past while I was there. He did not call me or send me a card and there was no card for me on my return a few days after. Instead, I found out from looking at the phone bill that he had called and talked to her for 45 minutes on our anniversary and for 45 minutes again, the following day, the day before I got back. He was so "distant" from me emotionally after I got back (although cheerful) that that was what sent me searching through his stuff finally, where I found a letter he had written to her, and then torn up. I can understand the rage that you are feeling right now and the loss - that he could be doing this at such a terrible time in your own life. I WILL say, that although your rage is entirely justified, it will not help the situation to explode at him - that will only drive him away.

As if that weren't bad enough, I got pregnant accidentally (in the throes of trying to save my M, summer of '01) and ended up having an incomplete miscarriage - finally had a D&C in Nov '01 - after I came home, I sobbed my heart out uncontrollably, I was in so much pain - I said that I still loved him, but he loved someone else. He held me and said that he was sorry. A week later our SIL (his brother's wife) killed herself after a long struggle with manic-depression. Our whole family went into shock and we struggled to cope with this tragedy. I thought that my H would finally appreciate that he had a faithful, loving wife. But no, behind my back, he was already stoking up a new friendship with OW2. He again became emotionally and physically remote and I started snooping in Feb '02, and found his private e-mail account and their silly e-mails to each other. I was devastated that after all we had been through, that he could do this to me AGAIN. I sent him an e-mail asking him to leave me alone. When I came home that evening, he started a row with me, and that's when I ended up punching him.

Please, please, believe me, I can sympathize with the pain you are going through - all churned up with the grief you feel. I have to say that I'm not sure now whether letting my H stay after D-day 2 was the right thing - sometimes I think he would have "got it" if I had just kicked him out right then and there. It certainly would have been fair if I had. But like your H, he blamed me for everything - refused to take responsibility for any of it AT THAT TIME. Since I did not do that, but have chosen to take the longer road, we now find ourselves at the point where we are today - not restored, but trying to get there. We have 2 boys and we feel it is vital that we try everything before we split up. I think you could approach your H with that angle - that for the sake of the children, he should be willing to try counselling together, before you make any definite decisions. It is the counselor who needs to be able to set the WS straight - they will generally not listen to the BS. I think you should hang on until you get to speak with SH and also get yourself into counselling, REGARDLESS of what happens with H. I'm sure that this will be of great help to you.

I don't know if you are a religious person, but I have found that getting up every morning, alone, and reading my Bible is the only thing that helps keep my mind turned towards the good, otherwise I instantly fall into seething resentment. If you are not religious, I would advise getting up alone every morning, get your cup of tea, and set yourself to write just 2 "morning pages" of stream-of-consciousness writing. This is the best way to deal with your feelings and embark on the dialogue with yourself and your conscience that you need to stabilize yourself. The first minutes after you wake up in the morning are the time to do this - when your subconscious is still awake and your conscious mind is still dulled by sleep. Whatever you write, you should put in an envelope and not look at it again for awhile - and put it in a safe place where no-one else will find it - this is just for you. I have found this technique to be very helpful in helping to order my thoughts and calm my emotions.

I hope this helps.
LIR

Thank you so much LIR for your thoughtful and insightful posts.
I think a lot of the anger is coming from the fact that I have not even started to grieve for my mother. You see,things are no different for me-except that she is not at the end of the phone.

Whereas my sisters and father have to deal with her loss, her empty space, on a daily and immediate basis, but because I live so far away,its even another time zone.

A friend phoned last night whose father died just 2 weeks ago and it was all I could do to keep the conversation going. And that was the first time that I have had tears for Mum. The rest of the time the tears are there for WH and me.

As for our R ,I really do feel that I am at a turning point. Quite which way I will go, I do not know. I seem to be unable to control my unhappiness and anger towards H at the moment and I know that to be an LB. Last night I went out for a few drinks with some girlfiends, forced myself to go but enjoyed it. My thinking is quite fragmented at present. I left just as H and I had started to discuss holidays. When I returned he asked me if I ahd told my friends about his A. I had not-they are acquaintances only and it would be inappropriate to do so.
Then this am something set me off again-something our 8yr old daughter said which I misinterpreted and I accused H of wanting to stay late at work so he could talk to OW and that I don't know why he doesn't just live with her.

I was so angry-he left and on the drive to work I picked up the phone 3 times to bawl him out and each time had to force myself not to. Finally got him just before I got to work and told him our marriage was in shreds and that only expert professional help could save it. He still refuses to go to mc-says he can't see how it would help!

I have phoned him back later and asked him to come out for dinner with me tonight and he agrees. I suppose his anger indicates he still cares? But why can't I reach him, how can I get to him through the fog? He is a very moral man-that's one of the things I always like about him. He knows what he is doing is very wrong.

LIR I too am Catholic but I have lost my faith more than a little with all of this. I know that is silly, why should I expect bad things not to happen to me just because I'm Catholic? And it's not even that really,it's just a feeling that I must make and be responsible for my own happiness not expect it to be a given.

I also think I probably need a mood stabiliser and so might try hypericum. I am going to be good to me and so am eating properly, going to the gym regularly, not drinking so much wine, and will try and expand my horizons too.

The theory is attractive but putting into practice is so very difficult.

I guess its a good sign that H responds whenever I am nice to him. He has phoned me just now just to tell me what he had for lunch as I had suggested something yesterday!

Can't wait to speak to SH,I hoe he will be able to help me focus on a plan and stick to it.

Regards and thanks LIR

Deluded

Devon

I agree with LIR about the IC. I know that I reached a point where I needed someone to help me cope with myself, to support me while I dealt with the marital mess. Until then, the only person I could really talk to was H, which was hardly ideal. Friends and family were supportive, but opinionated, rather embarrassed, and sometimes hostile when they felt their advice wasn't being taken. The therapist I found helped enormously, both as an outlet for my pain, and a guide through the confusion.

From what you're saying, it doesn't sound as if your H wants to leave you. It sounds as if he has deep feelings for you. But it also sounds as if he has fairly deep feelings for OW, I'm afraid - can you accept that (not condone it, just accept that it's so)? It's all too easy for us BWs to regard the OW as a low-value sl*t, whom our WHs would revile if they could only wake up long enough to get their eye in. We want to tell them that, to lecture them, to open their eyes. In some cases it's true - we see WHs here bemoaning their stupidity in ever getting involved. But sometimes the OW is closer to the soulmate end of the scale (we know they're probably not real soulmates, simply because a relationship that needs dishonesty and selfishness to hold it together would probably collapse under the weight of real needs). The OW may actually be a Viable Alternative. She may have been assured about her suitability as a life partner by the WH, and given the strong impression that all that keeps her from having the WH to herself is his duty towards his W and family. My own H said he never wanted to leave me, and had told OW that - but she must surely have seen that this left many loopholes. What if the fallout from d-day meant that I left him? What if I went under a bus? She had - and has - reason to hang on, and be hopeful.

This leaves your H in an awkward position, for he has to some extent committed himself to the OW. He has caused her to make changes to her life - your H's OW has left her BF and moved long-distance, I believe - which makes him feel responsible. He likes her - tough to accept, but probably true. She is his friend; they have shared exciting secrets, taken risks together, and cemented their relationship with trust and sex. He does not see her as a 'fling'; if she is a cheat, so is he. He probably thinks of her as a good person - because he's involved with her, and he thinks himself a good person (don't we all?)

To reject her would damage him - it would make a lie of all that he may have told her. Already it must be obvious that the marital misery that he probably used as a justification for the affair, must have been exaggerated. Otherwise he wouldn't still be with you. He's probably having to lie to HER now, about your attitude to him for one thing - if you're so hostile to him, why would he still be there, if everything was that bad? His time with her is probably very different now.

I know it is appalling to accept this, to acknowledge that one's beloved spouse has opened his heart to a lying, selfish cheat. But telling him that he is wrong to do what he has done will not prise him loose. Dreadful as it is to contemplate, you may have to talk with him about his feelings for OW, allow him to develop an intimate space with you, instead of her. I know the books say that you shouldn't ask what will hurt you, but your H is stuck, and may need all your support to get unstuck. He is hurting too. His hurt is self-inflicted, but no less painful for that.

This is incredibly hard to do - you need IC support!