Qdog - You know your options and I will not pretend to know which one is right for you.

But I have one practical suggestion: find her another counselor not limited by Kaiser, i.e., not covered by insurance (which is what I guess is the issue with Kaiser). Or get her to the same counselor off insurance so Kaiser is eliminated.

Other than that, I can offer that life after marriage to an idiot (or a person otherwise mentally challenged) can be much better than you might imagine.

I validate your frustration and declare that you're doing all you can. In the end - if you part - your efforts will be the foundation for your new life. You will be guilt free and released by the knowledge of what you tried to do. I guarantee it.

On a lighter note, if you need a clue as to how, ummmm, "creative" the human mind can get, read more of Ptaah's posts on D/D.

WAT

ALW:

"Divorce, then let things develope. You are in desperate need of moving away. Well what is more important. House remodelling or your love and sanity?"

I've thought seriously about saying what you suggested in your post. Many times. I'm thinking a lot about using reverse-babble, ala Orchid.

Like, since she ignores my ILYs when I send her emails, maybe instead I'll say "I let go" or "ILY, but I know that doesn't mean anything to you, but ILY anyway, because it means EVERYTHING to me" or "When you next see my WIFE, please ask her to give me a call? I'd like to go out on a date with her."

...I let go,
-Qfwfq

Qfwfq-

Now I'm not you, and you aren't me.. so please don't think I'm trying to tell you what to feel, think etc.. Just saying my own thoughts.

The 1st PA started when I was 9 month p.g. in Oct. 2000. First phone call from OW May 2002 with total denial- WS finally admitted to everything August 2002, then started a local EA November 2002. I TOTALLY understand the feeling of going nowhere. For me(please see above) with my 2 kids, etc... Since there is no yelling, fighting, etc.. that would hurt the kids (I tell the counselor we have a cordial roomate thing going).. if he left(or I forced him to leave) where would I be? At home, passing kids back and forth, no $$, wondering "what if we waited longer".

Sometimes I feel "stupid" for waiting around. but guess what- this is my choice and no one elses. I am happy to have his finacial help, his help with the kids, and even the 2 sentences spoke together at night for now.

My long term- I will not let this stand totally still for 2 years.. Seems like a long time, and it can change(especially if we do fight in front of kids, etc..) but for now- I've had some real heart to heart talks with myself and said- I'm throwing the anger away, I'm not "expecting" anything from my WS, and I am living my life. I choose to stay for now. I choose to have him stay for now.

I wish you the comfort I have found. I know there will be tough times, I will have uneasy moments, anger, etc.. Especially since the EA is still going- but when I get mad, or find myself calling him names under my breathe- I physically push my arms toward the heavens and say TAKE MY ANGER-TAKE MY "TRYING TO CONTROL HIM" .. I DON'T WANT IT!!! {{{{Hugs}}}} Because it really sucks we are put in this position...

WAT:

"But I have one practical suggestion: find her another counselor not limited by Kaiser, i.e., not covered by insurance (which is what I guess is the issue with Kaiser). Or get her to the same counselor off insurance so Kaiser is eliminated."

I like this suggestion. I am considering a couple of C's that I've had good dialog with (one that I called - SH, and one that I've corresponded with on this forum a bit), plus a couple of people in my ulove support group (but not professionals) and even one or two people here that have offered. But I hadn't thought of suggesting she call her IC and work with her outside Kaiser (if the IC has a private practice). That's a good idea.

"Other than that, I can offer that life after marriage to an idiot (or a person otherwise mentally challenged) can be much better than you might imagine."

She's behaving idiotically, in my humble view. I am afraid that my retisence is just as much due to my fear of the unknown as my fear of losing my W. *I* could be the problem.

"I validate your frustration and declare that you're doing all you can. In the end - if you part - your efforts will be the foundation for your new life. You will be guilt free and released by the knowledge of what you tried to do. I guarantee it."

And she's apparently guilt-free now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Amazing, too. She's a very caring person. But she's so adamant that she not "abandon" her "friend" that she is oblivious to the fact that their A has broken his family apart TWICE now. No regrets??? Sheez!

I let go,
-Qfwfq

2boysmom:

I know. Feels like living in the Twilight Zone, doesn't it? And we're still pretty close, otherwise, though we've "stopped" having SF (it's only been about a week and a half, though).

That just seems like the "latest development" in our growing back apart right now. At least, that's the way it feels. My W doesn't understand what love is, and so doesn't believe me when I tell her that I can't have SF without expressing my love for her. It's frustrating. I want her SO BAD, but not without an understanding of WHY I want her.

it just feels like it's slipping away, not improving.

I let go,
-Qfwfq

2ble post

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

3ble post

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Hey BUB...

Our d-day was 4/01 "princess" very much in the picture.

I "quit talking about US" 2/02 last known contact w/ "princess" 1/02... I enter individual counseling...

Recovery REALLY began 5/02

HUGE strides 1/03... REALLY... REALLY... REALLY!

please note that the timeline isn't THAT different from your own!

Hugs,
Cali

Thanks Cali. I need to be reminded of what's at stake and what's really happening here.

I got an email from my W a bit ago, in my reply, I didn't say ILY sarcastically, but I did say it. I MEAN it, after all. I said: "ILY. Knowing that, keeps me going."

After all, she DID ask me how my day was going. I told her, honestly, that I'm sad.

I let go,
Qfwfq

Would love some more input on my "definitions" thread.

uhkay?

I let go,
-Qfwfq

she ignored my ILY in her reply.

Q,

I know that I could be at risk for being flamed here; but I can't resist saying...

That as you've mentioned,your wife has issues that pre-date your M. I believe these issues unresolved have spilled over to contribute to the reason she had the A to begin with; and is still in contact with RatMeat.

It is my belief that until she deals with the root cause of her personal issues; she can't dig her way out of her situation enough to even begin to deal with your marriage. Because her root issues,RM & you are all intertwined (spl?).

Q, she needs you to be there in whatever form you can to help her when she is ready. Whether you are still married or not if/when this occurs, bottom line is that you are in the best position to help her; which I believe you will do.

So right now your recovery is about you; because that's the only thing you have control over.

With so much at stake, is it possible that you can look at the issue as a whole, with only part of it being about the A, RM & your marriage? Support her in addressing her root issues, which I believe will result in losing RM for good and enabling her to be a good wife and lifelong partner for you. Blessings, CSue

TootieQ,
(I love that name, good one Susan!)

I don't have any answers for you. I just wanted to let you know that I'm thinking of you.

The only thing I figure worth mentioning is, perhaps the question shouldn't be "Should 'ol TootieQ toss in the towel?", but instead, "Is 'ol TootieQ at a point where he can live with himself if he tosses in the towel?" What would it take for you to feel like you've done all you can and you really can toss in the towel, and walk away? (I had someone ask me that recently, it's a good one to ponder).

It's so odd, your W seems to really want to have you around, but doesn't understand how you deserve to be treated. How has her behaviour improved since d-day, if at all?

Sorry to ask such tough questions,

Jen

CSue:

I guess I hope that, at my best, I can do what you suggest. I want to be the one that CAN and is WILLING to be there for her, when NOBODY ELSE (specifically RM) CAN or WILL, so that she can SEE just how much integrity people really have. What RESPONSIBILITY and COMMITMENT mean to me (and by their absense, to so and so).

I'm not always sure I've got the intestinal fortitude, though.

I let go,
-Qfwfq

Jen:

"Is 'ol TootieQ at a point where he can live with himself if he tosses in the towel?"

I guess not.

"What would it take for you to feel like you've done all you can and you really can toss in the towel, and walk away? (I had someone ask me that recently, it's a good one to ponder)."

And one I'll ponder! Can't answer that just yet. But it is a good question.

"It's so odd, your W seems to really want to have you around, but doesn't understand how you deserve to be treated. How has her behaviour improved since d-day, if at all?"

I sometimes wonder if it's improved at all. But like a friend said today, "it always gets darkest before the dawn." I hope that's right. It sure feels pretty dark right now!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I let go,
-Qfwfq

Q,

I'm not sure I could either to be honest. What I do know is that the more you take care of you; the better you will feel.

It seems to me that right now part of taking care of you is staying in the marriage doing what you're doing.

One way you will know it's time to do something different is when "taking care of you" means getting out of the marriage.

In the meantime, until/if that time occurs take care of yourself in every other way you can imagine (take action and do new things that take care of you). Blessings, CSue

TOOTIEQ!

ha! i love it!

Anyway bend over-

Whack! Whack! Whack! What is this, a small crack in the 2x4? You really do (are a) have a hard a$$! Just kidding.

Seriously - step back and take a vacation. You're burning out and it isn't a good place to be. IC is a good idea for you if you caqn do it....

Had this email dialog with my W today. I wasn't going to send her anything today, until I was ready to copy and paste the ENTIRE "definitions" thread into an email (because she ASKED me), so she initiated the convo. Some stuff changed to protect the innocent. What I was TEMPTED to say in []! So, I guess I'm saying that this is a vent!

W: Hope your day is going well... No contractor, really wanted to talk with him about the progess...D***n.

2TQ: Well, it's going okay. I'm just sad. I'm getting stuff done for coworker alright, though. No computer crashes this morning! ;o)
I don't understand the contractor at all. He's no help. If I get a chance this afternoon, I'll call and ask "what's up?" No calls from the lawyer yet, either. I love you. Knowing that, keeps me going.

W: ***'s "boy freind inlaw" [her nickname for a live-in BF of her D's who's somewhat flakey] asked her daughter to marry him.. poor ***, looks like she know gets to be his meal ticket...

2TQ: "In that case, I am with you. It's probably a mistake."

W: "The guy can't even pay 300 a month for rent on time, at 35 there is something wrong with that."

2TQ: "Indeed." [what I WANTED to say is: "Yeah. That guy has just a tiny little bit MORE integrity than a certain 37yr-old jack@$$ in NM that puts having an A with a M'd woman 11 years his senior higher on his list of priorities than keeping his own family together.]

But I didn't say that. She didn't reply to my "indeed" either, but she had to head off to teach, so she may not have gotten the reply.

I let go,
-Qfwfq

Qfwfq....

O.k., again- just speaking from my experience here- and I know we all have different situations.. so just food for thought.

#1, I don't tell my WS ILY anymore.. Why- because it is setting him up to have to respond which I know he doesn't like. He feels like I'm a dog and he's the fox.. trying to trap him. It's also setting me up to get hurt- which I don't like. Kinda like dog training.. Don't set the dog up to fail!

#2) Now, I'm serious.. What are you doing for you.. Since all of this going on- have you gotten a hobby? Tell her- hey, on this night.. I will be gone from 5-7, but would love to talk to you about "bowling or whatever" when I get home.. And if you ever would like to join me- please do! Or Sat., me and the boy are going to the movies.. We'd love you to join us-- leave it there. If no reply- just GO! Don't get hurt, mad, upset. EXCPECT NO REPLY.. Hopefully she will suprise you someday. Come home, and say what a great time you had and if she'd ever like to go- you'd love to have her come.. But DO NOT say "Oh, I wish you were there, etc...".. Again- don't set her and you up to fail...

This is working with my WS.. Now, I'm not saying we are anywhere close to being as husband/wife should- but......it stopped the drifting away.. It has grounded him as much as a fogged in person can get grounded. Just 20 minutes ago I told him I'm going to pottery class on Monday nights, and this Saturday out with the girlfriends.. He raised an eyebrow-- Oh- (*She's having fun too??? Not just me with the EA??? Wait! I'm suppose to be having all the fun and she's suppose to be b*tchy, crabby,moping etc.. so I have something to dwell on!)

He took our two boys to swimming lessons and was extremly nice getting them ready, telling me about his day, etc.. Why-- he wanted to hear about what I was up to. If I never do anything- I have nothing to say! I stopped moping.. That was driving him away faster than race car.

Regarding the SR, thing.. Well, I would love to love my WS too. Very much so. I don't. He is not ready.. he does not feel worthy of my love, he still feels guilty, and ashamed even though he's going around this whole thing dang back---wards if you have my opinion. But, anyway, right now it is just to satisfy very basic of needs. Period. I do not show him any t.l.c., and if I did, I know SR would be called off, and he would be putting even a bigger wall up. So I do not expect any tlc. Yes, it's extremly hard. One day, one step, one minute at a time. Focus Focus Focus on better days to come.

{{{Hugs}}}} Again, being in this situation just SUCKS!

<small>[ February 26, 2003, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: 2boysmom ]</small>

2boysmom:

Well, our sitch is different. By that I mean, we do a lot of things together, always have, even during the A. My W was careful to partition her life such that she was only with RM when she was away from home for a while. That's this last couple of years, that is. 12 years ago, RM lived nearby and they worked together daily.

But we do a lot together. We work on the house together, we go to movies together or with the kids. We've even gone out to dinner and overnight for our anniversary together recently. She actually encourages me to do things with my son. We build RC airplanes together and he's interested in learning to fly himself, so I took him up with a friend who's an instructor, and we're trying to figure out a schedule for him to get a pilot's lisence (maybe me too!). I build telescopes and have a Model A to restore. I've been having a hard time even wanting to do those things again, because they were a point of focus of my W's anger with me after D-day (I didn't spend enough time with her). But I'm trying to get back into them in moderation. It's working, but not very well, because my main hobby right now is understanding relationships!

We haven't had SF in almost 2 weeks (and 2 weeks before that) per my W's decision. She can't understand what love means and isn't interested, and I can't separate loving her from SF with her. I certainly don't enjoy it when she doesn't want it, so I will wait for her to tell me when/if she wants it. But I feel us growing apart more than ever lately in part because of this. I am afraid that she'll think "see? you only want me for SF!", which would completely miss my point. It's a real problem for me right now. My optimism for our future is fading fast. My optimism for MY future is growing, though.

&hearts &spades &clubs
-Qfwfq