SS:

No, nothing bad. It's been a lovely week for me (is it okay for a 250lb male scientist to say he's having a "lovely" week? Don't want to give people the wrong idea, ya know).

I guess this shift of perspective has helped me to be less concerned about my own progress and more able to hop in on others' threads lately. But I have to be careful. Got a lot of work to do, too!

One other thing we talked about the other day was the 2yrs it takes to recover. I think my W really understood this time, that my LBs (what she perceives as LBs, anyway - I hadn't thought I was) are to be expected to some degree, and for a while longer, maybe years. She felt the same way from her end, and so I think we both gained a little insight into the other's pain. It's been nice since that talk.

-ol' Qfwfq

Hi Q, that you?

One other thing we talked about the other day was the 2yrs it takes to recover. I think my W really understood this time, that my LBs (what she perceives as LBs, anyway - I hadn't thought I was) are to be expected to some degree, and for a while longer, maybe years. She felt the same way from her end, and so I think we both gained a little insight into the other's pain. It's been nice since that talk.

Sometimes I would LB my wife and she ( after she had read the Harley books) would say " that's an LB, you need to stop.")
I would then explain what I was feeling and why I was saying whatever it was. Sometimes she would tell me how I could say it differently so it wasn't an LB, and sometimes she would say " I didn't realize what you were feeling, I don't know how you could say it any differently than you did."

That is why I think so much of communication. Granted it only works if both want to reconcile, but from what I see ( from reading thousands of posts) most won't start to communicate if they don't want it to work, they just blow it off and go their way with the OP. It's too much work to do it if making the M work is not the goal. So, I believe your W wants it to work. I can see that you believe that too. Goody!!

I think lovely is a nice word, don't apologize, the girls like it.

I think I'm being paged........yes, they want to know "are you going to do any real work today."
Probably better go now.

SS

Qfwfq (your still 2long to me),

I admit I only read the first and last page of this thread (you are just too damn popular). Anyway, I will read the rest.

Buddy, I think I see a real problem and tell me if I'm wrong... are you saying that it was OK for her to have the affair... that it was a gift? This is not good self dialogue. Who told you that? A's are wrong. You may grow stronger through the process, but that does not make it a healthy gift. Do you want me to come over and break your leg? I hear the bone heals stronger after a break!! LOL

I want to talk to you some more about your situation after I read up. One word of advice though... do NOT lose your true self here in a fog that makes you think that being an enlightened punching bag is your true self. Then again... I'm not much of a success story my friend and you know that!!

Conan (well wishing but never very helpful, LOL)

SS:

"I think lovely is a nice word, don't apologize, the girls like it."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"I think I'm being paged........yes, they want to know "are you going to do any real work today."
Probably better go now."

Just tell them it's MY fault! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks, SS. I believe she wants it to work out, too.

♥Qfwfq

Conan:

Missed your post before:

"Buddy, I think I see a real problem and tell me if I'm wrong... are you saying that it was OK for her to have the affair..."

No.

"that it was a gift?"

Yep. Maybe a better way to put it, or a different one, perhaps, is that it presented an "opportunity" for growth that I would not have had otherwise.

"This is not good self dialogue. Who told you that?"

Shakespeare. He said "There is neither good nor bad, but thinking makes it so."

"A's are wrong. You may grow stronger through the process, but that does not make it a healthy gift."

I won't argue about whether they're right or wrong. If you look up a recent post by Katie Scarlet, who had an A almost as long (and probably more intense, thank goodness!) as my W's, you'll see that some xWSs actually don't regret the A relationship. My W seems to also be one of them. So: Was it right? Was it wrong? Depends on who you ask. Certainly, from my point of view, it wasn't a "happy time" and finding out about it on my own by accident was no damned fun, either. But I've learned a lot that I wouldn't have learned if I hadn't found out. And I wouldn't have found out if it hadn't happened. Am I "grateful" that it happened? Heck no. I'd rather have been hit with a 2x4 50 times every day at lunch for the past 12 years than have been betrayed like that.

Don't worry, though. I'm not "losing myself" in this. I'm actually doing pretty well, I believe.

"I want to talk to you some more about your situation after I read up. One word of advice though... do NOT lose your true self here in a fog that makes you think that being an enlightened punching bag is your true self. Then again... I'm not much of a success story my friend and you know that!"

I'd like to hear more of your story. I've not been a punching bag, though. To quote Rodney Dangerfield, from "Back to School", when he asked what he learned: "I don't have to take $h!+ off nobody!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> And that includes my W. But I don't need to dish it out, either.

-Qfwfq

"Even when she just holds my hand while watching TV"

She holds your hand while watching TV????

<<<BIG SIGH>>>

She loves you. She's just in the fog.

I wish I could hold hands with someone while watching tv, like my H and I used to.....

Jen

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

2long,

I am NOT trying to mess you up here, but you really have to keep in mind some points:

-Yes, she may still love you... but is her brand of love one you can live with and be happy?

-Does her brand of love and marriage include her ability to have affairs?

-Will she always have justifications for her actions, even if they hurt you?

My WW was willing and at times did nice things for me. However, in the end I have concluded that her actions were measured (perhaps unconciously) to keep me medium happy and around so she could do what she wanted. The concept I really learned on these boards was the behavior of a "cake eater". I came to see my WW as a professional cake eater. When the cake eating is threatened then she reacts until it is safe again. I believe she "loves" me, but her brand of F***** up love is not for me.

"Food" for thought.

Conan:

"-Yes, she may still love you... but is her brand of love one you can live with and be happy?"

That I intend to find out.

"-Does her brand of love and marriage include her ability to have affairs?"

Clearly, no. Not like your WW, at least. My W has wanted to be "friends" with Rat Meat since she thought she "ended" her A 2 months before I found out about it. It became pretty obvious to me that the kind of dialog they thought was still appropriate as "friends" was a blatant EA. There've been a number of convos where we came to the [inescapable] conclusion that it WAS an EA and that a "friendship" with a former A partner would be impossible. My W differs from yours in that the A was primarily an EA, and there weren't multiple OMs. The first A started after they'd worked together daily for a few years, even. She HAS promised to me a couple of times (once last year and again recently) to be sexually faithful to me. That's a START. It isn't the end-all solution to our problems. But it may allow us to address them without distraction.

"-Will she always have justifications for her actions, even if they hurt you?"

Not exactly sure what you mean by this. Does she justify her past behavior? Of course, though less ridiculously with time.

"My WW was willing and at times did nice things for me. However, in the end I have concluded that her actions were measured (perhaps unconciously) to keep me medium happy and around so she could do what she wanted."

I know what you mean. I know exactly what this feels like. My W did this for the first 6 months after D-day. But I could see through it, and so she "knows" it won't work anymore, assuming she had any desire to try it now.

"The concept I really learned on these boards was the behavior of a "cake eater". I came to see my WW as a professional cake eater. When the cake eating is threatened then she reacts until it is safe again."

And you also learned how to see through the facade, didn't you? Same here. After more than a year since D-day, I can either see through any facade that's being put up by her, or I can clearly see what direction our R is going, and so I'm going to be quite capable of deciding whether I want that or not in the long term.

"I believe she "loves" me, but her brand of F***** up love is not for me."

In your case, the disregard for your feelings is much more blatant than it ever was with my W after D-day. I wouldn't want what you've described either. I may not want what my W is willing to give, either. I intend to find out, and now I know how to.

-Qfwfq

Ok, thanks for clearing up your thoughts with me.

By the way, I never did learn very well the actions of cake eating. I always just bought in to the promises and went back to Plan A. She is really to tricky for me. That is probably one of the reasons why I know I can't go on, because I have no true ability to figure out the truth without excessive spying. You seem to have that figured out much better than I ever hoped to. That would make a world of difference.

Conan:

The point is NOT to get better at finding out what's going on behind your back. The point is finding out whether you have a 100%/100% M. Notice I didn't say "50/50". M requires a 100% commitment from both partners. If you're not getting that, either because your S is having an A or they're just not "into it", you can TELL. At least I can. And because I can TELL my W is "trying" in whatever her own way is, I don't so much need to know the details of what's going on behind my back.

And it's precisely because I feel that she would "like" to have a 100/100 M with me, though she resists calling it that, that I have hung on like I have for so long.

Your mileage may vary,
-Qfwfq

Originally posted by Conan:
My WW was willing and at times did nice things for me. However, in the end I have concluded that her actions were measured (perhaps unconciously) to keep me medium happy and around so she could do what she wanted.

You struck a nerve. I'm the BS and I did this same thing throughout my M, especially regarding SF. Probably the worst thing I did, though, no A or other serious infractions.

Maybe we all do this at times? It's easier than being honest and having to go through those "core arguments" again. In the long run, bad idea.

Lablady