Thanks everybody for the clap on the shoulder and your insight & advice - as usual, greatly appreciated!

USH - completely agree with 'her being a moving target' and that MC doesn’t make sense as long as she is in contact with OM. All my changes and initiatives are all simply discounted.

Espoir - how true! The most galling aspect of it all has always been that I feel like providing the security, the home, the help… whilst she can go out and play and devote her 'good' energy to OM (and vice versa) whilst I am fed the cr*p. Nothing new there, that's what an affair is about. I don’t know why she couldn’t tell me about he abuse issues - maybe it's the cultural thing that these sort of things are just unspeakable. Yes, I think she appreciates the honesty and moral quality of me - fine, but what does this give me? Does this make me happier, more handsome, richer? As long as I don’t see, feel and hear true appreciation, it's just what it is - words.

You asked what changes she intends to do - she mentions that she wants to become "independent", that means both financially and emotionally. She gets in a rage when I try to help her out on the first part (ie, giving her advice re. jobs etc) so I stopped doing that.

At the same time, she says she wants to work on her 'self esteem issues'? Pardon me??? I mean, how would *you* feel if your WS would tell you, sorry mate, but s*xually you're just not good enough, and yeah, I've betrayed you for years, and by the way, the last 12 months when I told you I'm trying my best, I was lying too???

Deluded, Litchfield, Espoir: You ask: How do I proceed from here? You know, it feels like I'm reaching the end of the road. The choice is her's and her's alone:
a) Either she commits to me - in which case we stick together, go to MC and try. Both, not just me.
b) Or, she says sayonara - in which case we separate, take out the carving knife and start cutting everything in half, starting with our daughter, the house, the rest
c) Or, she gives the (by now usual) "I don’t know", "give me time", "don’t put me under pressure" spiel, in which case I'm minded to go for separation as well, knowing that I cant physically be under the same roof with her, knowing that she has regular happy chats with her "soulmate".

Bowd - your optimism is so uplifting!! Not sure though if I can share it all, but thanks mate. Yes, there are positive signs that she opens up. But….. as you say, I've given given given so much, can I carry on? For example, right now, I cant. Today is her birthday. But I cant be ar*ed to write her a card or give her a present or even mentioning it. Silly and wrong, but why celebrate her birthday and wasting time, emotions and energy on it, when sooner or later it boomerangs back right into my face?

She'll have her 1-2-1 session with MC next Tuesday, after which I shall wait like a person in waiting for execution for the verdict: Destruction or Hope.

Daughter told me today that WW cried yesterday, as I wasn’t home for her birthday nor wrote a card or anything. What can I say? It's not the way it should be, it's not what I want, but if we were to separate, that's what it is going to be like, 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, right?

I just can't invest a single penny anymore into our relationship knowing that she is still in la-la-land with that little sh*t. She's just got no idea how much hurt she causes with her destructive actions. But then again, she is living that life already quite some time, so why bother. Guess I am rambling again, sorry.

Nick while I don't have any useful answers for you, I can not help but see some similarities between you and MortarMan's situation. I would like to suggest that you may want to view his situation and see if maybe there is hope for yours.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Nick123:
<strong>Daughter told me today that WW cried yesterday, as I wasn&#8217;t home for her birthday nor wrote a card or anything. What can I say? It's not the way it should be, it's not what I want, but if we were to separate, that's what it is going to be like, 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week, right?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes Nick this is how it is. The WS wants to hold onto to certain things and yet carry on dumping on your emotions from a great height. This is on of them. If you had spent $$$ on a card it wouldn't have been any value to her anyway.

I can't do anything for my stbx, I cant get my heart into doing anything for her along these lines and I expect she will do the same. Knowing that there is OM#5 around let them meet all the needs. Look after yourself my friend.

Neil.

Hi Nick. Haven't been on the board in a couple of days- trying to break my MB addiction.

The birthday seems like a mini taste of Plan B. Let OM meet her emotional needs on her birthday. After all, if you do divorce, you will no longer celebrate each other's birthday.

I sympathize with your wife's goals, but don't understand her methods. How does having an affair that involves lying and cheating help her self esteem?

Emotional independance? We are emotionally dependant from day 1 of life- on Mom. Then we widen our circle to include more and more people with whom we emotionally connect. The key is to keep our connections healthy. It seems to me that it is her emotional dependance on an unhealthy relationship with OM that needs to be broken.

Financial independance? Of course, divorce will grant her that wish. But I do think that it's great for women to work outside the home, have a fulfilling career, and contribute to the family finances. But in that case, you have to "just do it". Is she holding on to an vision of her ideal career that is impractical? Like someone who wants to be a concert pianist but can't find a position- and could be say, teaching piano but considers it beneath them? I do agree, that your tactic of not discussing her work issues is probably a very good idea. Unless you conciously limit it solely to supportive listening. Asking questions, listening, NO ADVICE.

I do hope the MC session on Tuesday can help. I fear that in your wife's mind she would be happy to continue in limbo forever.

Hi all,

2muchcoffee - yes, I'm familiar with MM's thread and post once in a while...
Porsche - agree, if she chooses separation, she will get separation, what more is there to say?
Espoir - re emotional independence: I agree that if the goal in a relationship is to be emotionally independent from each other, it's a pretty clear non-starter. I absolutely agree with you that her 'self esteem' issues, depression, etc etc all became aggravated once she got involved with the little s**t, once the lying, deception and betrayal started. and same for me of course, the positive, trusting can-do guy gave way to a suspicous, betrayed loser. that's what the destructive nature of an affair can do. now, these are my issues to live with & resolve, one way or another.
Re financial independence: it's really up to her, you know. I tried to help etc etc, I spent a lot of time, effort, money and energy helping OM's and her musical project (!) in the hope that WW would find professional fulfillment. I actually always encouraged her to play on stage rather than getting a teaching job; I always mentioned that she doesnt have to work for the money as I make enough. Maybe I wasn't listening closely enough that working itself is imporant for her so she can feel herself independent? Quite possibly so. But then again, I didn't, no one did, stop her from doing whatever she wanted to do. She could, can do whatever she wanted. Giving private lessons? Applying at a school? Finding people to play music with? You name it, all possibilities were/are there, you just gotta do it. Just staying at home, avoiding contact with fellow musicians here in the country, is certainly not going to solve anything. Blaming me, as usual, is the cheap & wrong option.

My wife called me before saying that she'll cook some nice dinner tonight. I was rather brief on the phone, sent her an email explaining that first and foremost she has to decide, either our relationship, or contact with him. if the scenario includes contact with him, then we will separate. In the mean time, I really cant and dont want to invest into our relationship, and that includes if she wants to cook for me or if she wants to be in the same room with me. This is elementary protection, I fear that the next time if she kicks me in the face, I wont be able to pick myself up from the floor.

Still hopeful, but.....

Nick

Nick

I wish I could think of something useful to say, but others here have made some good points. Know that I am thinking of you and wishing you well.

Have you decided to continue looking into alternative accommodation? What do you plan on doing now. I think it was Espoir who said that as soon as you mentioned moving out the e-mail to OM came soon after. Of course it shouldn't be about getting a reaction but about you taking care of yourself when you can no longer deal with the on-going contact.

I think you are also right not to "pretend" i.e. dinner the birthday scenario. She would have to get used to life without you, and whatever she may think, believe me, the reality is very different. I have been finding that myself. Although I was used to spending alot of time by myself, not having H in the picture at all makes it very different.

Take care friend.

Lisa

Thanks Lisa - yes, the reality of separation will be different, and not necessarily better than reconciliation! At least, that's what the dozens of stories on this board here seem to suggest.

<strong>
On another note, I believe my wife is reading this thread. That is fine with me, whatever I wrote is true and I stand by it. And, if it doesn&#8217;t bother her, I will continue to post, as I really appreciate your input, and I cordially invite my wife to post here too.
</strong>

In her last email, however, she all dismisses this forum and all input by saying

<strong>

"I have my strong opinion about how marriage, relationship and love should be. Nobody can change it neither [MC] or MarriageBuilder, they all are talking about european and american individualists. They've been let's say, always alone from the birth."

</strong>

So here you go, you who have always been alone from birth. She and OM are from a different planet, you see, where the rules of gravity do not apply.

Well, in a way she's right, as neither MC nor MB can fundamentally change a M. We can only want to change ourselves and examine the way in which we conduct ourselves and sometimes the help of external parties, like MCs or MB principals can help guide us in what may or may not work.

Glad to see you still have your sense of humour, but what about your next steps? Any idea?

Lisa

Of course MB, MC can fundamentally change the relationship. However, they both can give you ideas, questions, feeback, understanding about yourself and your partner. they both can help you understand what's going on, what to do next, what question to answer next, what question to raise next. Now, there are 2 ways dealing with this advice: a) ignore & dismiss it outright, and b) listen to it, think about it and digest it.

my next steps are the same: the ball is firmly in my wife's court. if she can't committ, then we should and will separate. I mean, we have been going on for a year now. As long as the little s**t is in the picture we cant and wont make progress, cant and wont find peace, but the destructive circle my wife is caught in will go on and on - that's hardly rocket science, or is it.

Hi Nick,

It seems to me that your WW is still well within her comfort zone-she's at home with her daughter supported financially and emotionally (should she choose to accept it) by Nick, and has OM on tap to "stroke" her whenever she needs it.....

What positive signs of change have you seen?

How easy would it be for WW to continue her R with OM whilst playing Happy Families with you?

She's playing the victim very well Nick. Stop being her rescuer, if what she really wants is independence, let her have it. That's the only wy she's going to be able to identify what she wants.

What's happened to your needs for the past year? You said it yourself in a previous post....unfulfilled. You may be ready for an A yourself if someone took the time....

Who was it said, we regret our inactions far more than our actions?

Good luck Nick.

Deluded

Well, in the end, it becomes really simple. Who wants to be in a marriage with a third party involved?

I think WS at times react against MB because one of the first precepts is that having an affair is a "cruel indulgence" and you must have no contact if the marriage is to survive and recover. Many WS would prefer to negotiate a path where they can try to have both.

The reality of MB is that it simply gives us some guidelines to follow in marriage. So many of us marry with the best intentions and then end up floundering years later. Bad habits take over, stresses affect us. We are not really aware of our behavior. No one gave us a hand book, or an instruction guide when we got married. Is it any wonder that we make mistakes?

Are the guidelines really so onerous? To speak to your spouse with respect, to come to joint decisions together. I wouldn't exactly call this new age malarkey- these are simple practices that people with good marriages follow.

Has your W elaborated more on what she is looking for in love, marriage and an R? Because right now it seems to be defined by having a tacky affair filled with lies and deceit. Either she is with you, and makes you her partner and best friend. OR she should go do that with OM, if he truly is the man of her dreams. It's not fair to you. In a way, it's not even fair to OM- to keep him hanging on a string. And it's certainly not fair to herself. She sounds like a woman of many talents. She's gotten sucked into a situation where she can not hold her head up high in front of the world. But ultimately she is the only one who can get herself out of it.

I think withdrawing from the dinner plans makes sense. The rollercoaster is very painful. The dinner is really just a diversion at this point. Not getting involved avoids getting sucked in to the hopeful feeling that the relationship is healing when there's actually still contact.

I know I learned alot from the questionnaires. The emotional needs Q helped me identify areas where I could improve. And doing the lovebuster questionnaire was an eyeopener for my H. He was very prone to LBs. Reading the definitions of things such as angry outbursts and disrespectful judgments made him realize that his behavior fit to a T. Recognizing it enabled him to make changes in his behavior.

But there are probably other ways for your W to learn about the MB "principles". Certainly those principles are frequently reviewed in MC. They are really the bedrock of any marriage.

The lovebank thing is so amazing. Due to my H's work schedule, we had been spending very little time together. The other day, we went xcountry skiing together, just the 2 of us, in a very beautiful place. Afterwards, we ate lunch in a cute little romantic restaurant. I could really feel the "love deposits" clinking into the bank that day.

oops I am kind of rambling. Hope the MC today can help. wish you strength to get through this- I know it is hard and scary to contemplate separation. But I think your back is to the wall.

I know that my wife is reading this Forum. She told me she does, and she does not object. Maybe she will post as well, I wouldn't mind.

Deluded - I haven't seen any change for the better lately; she continues to call the little s**t and doesn't say "yes, I will focus now on our relationship" and that's all there is to say really. What happened to my needs during the past year, the years whilst her affair was ongoing? Ignored, denied, repulsed.

Espoir - thanks for your view, I absolutely agree with you. Apart from the MB principles (like honesty, joint agreement etc) I would add something else without which you cant embark on the road to recovery at all - the will to try & give a relationship a chance. I am still waiting for that. Yesterday, we had a conversation in which she said that she now realises that she can't have both me and the little s**t (she doesn&#8217;t call him that, by the way). Based on this insight, is she prepared to either stop contact & focus on our relationship, or separate with me? No, of course not. It's again wait & see & I don&#8217;t know & give me time - this time until daughter's school holiday, when we will have another MC session.

You ask: Who wants to be in a marriage with a third party involved? Well, certainly not me. Been there, got the T-shirt, and you know what: it's really really bad. Something you cant imagine unless you've experienced it yourself. The problem as far as I can see is that my wife never took the emotional risk of trying to bond with me - always saving OM in the back of her head & heart as the fall-back option. Now, wonder oh wonder, recovery didn't happen, she still feels 'unsure' and can't decide and, as far as I can tell, remains unhappy. This is one of the principles of MB, which I firmly believe in, and reading the dozens and dozens of threads here, a principle which is validated over and over again: You cant even think of healing/progressing a relationship as long as a third person is in the picture. But I am preaching to the converted.

<small>[ March 12, 2003, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: Nick123 ]</small>