"SV Boy"...LOL!!!

Yep. I'm an old Bay Area kid...just "sound" Texan these days! LOL!!!

All my love!

Contact Redhat via e-mail. He will get ahold of me.

I have a little one home sick with the flu this weekend.

Have fun at the reunion!

L.

Space,

I did not know.. you were from Bay Area... I love the Bay Area, just need a few million to move back and live comfortably.... lol

Anyway, I lived there for a year in Marin ... loved it, and went to law school there... ws had job issues so we moved to Texas, back close to my parents ... where I could have some help...

Anyway, Glad you went to your reunion. I have Never attended any of mine, but may have to next time! I graduated from cyfair, right down the road from where I am now...every other reunion I lived out of state... next time around I might actually be a local! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Although I have considered moving to Alaska or the Uk as of late... just to get away... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I hope you are having a blast, you so deserve it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Honey

Hey Cadet,

How was the reunion? Hope it was fun! I didn't even get a phone call from Redhat!!

My son was quite ill with the flu and I was not feeling too well myself. So it was better not to give those germs to you and your family!!! LOL! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Maybe next time we can all get together.

Did you at least wave when you flew over SJ??

See ya!

L.

I had a majorly good time! I won't go into the details, as some of them may prove somewhat embarassing here...but I will say this; life has a way of letting us know we are love, we are loved and cared for, and we are far more than what some of us feel like a lot around here.

There is a whole, beautiful world out there filled with wonderful things. Even as we work through these very difficult times.

I did manage to hook up with a fellow MBer for a great lunch, but I'll be circumspect in case they'd rather remain anonymous.

And I did wave at SJ as I flew by, O. There's someone very close to my heart down there in Redwood City, so I am quite fond of the area!

So the secret is out! I'm not a "real" Texan <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> But then again, I'm not quite a "real" Californian these days either! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> (Geez, you guys have gotten so uptight! It used to be one could "let it all hang out" in CA and everyone was cool. Nowadays you've become the mecca of closet smokers!)

Anyway; wonderful time, great partying, dancing, and SO much more!

Cadet,

Glad to hear you had a good time and even happier to hear the joy in your post.

So that was U waving from those friendly skies....wait Ur near the American Hub.... hmm.... can't remember their jingle. Oh well. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Yea we CA people are getting quite picky in our old age. Those liberal kids now sport a crop of gray hair and getting a bit cranky when anyone lites up! LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Also glad to hear you made it safely back home.
That MBer you had lunch with didn't say why he didn't call? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Just kidding.

take care, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />
L.

Orchid,

Don't be so hard on that MB'er who didn't call. I know who SC had lunch with. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It was a pleasure to meet him in person.

JL

SC’s update. Some “stuff” that has been going on over the last few days…

April 3
She pierced my heart again today...why does this keep happening!?!?!

She was off to NYC on business and to visit friends so I took her to the airport. As she's leaving, she just grabbed me and kissed me, put her hand on my cheek....and I just melted...yet again!

Why is it she can SO easily have me swooning? What power she holds, what power!

All I could say was "that was a delicious kiss..." as I turned away and held back the tears...

She then called me on the cell to thank me, very profusely, for all I've been doing for her (her business taxes, her laptop setup, and a bunch of other stuff). I told her she was very, very welcome, and wished her a safe and fun trip...

April 7
D's coming back from "New York" tonight, right? And I'm picking her up, so she calls me to let me know the flight is delayed, that the plane is broken and they are changing flights...well, I'd just called Continental and the flight WAS delayed, but there was no change in flights...so suspicious me...I go to expedia to check her flight info...guess what?

She's coming from Orlando! Again! (That’s where the OM is in prison)

AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know, we're divorcing, and I think it's pretty clear I've accepted that and moving on...why does she STILL have to lie, why can't she just wait a few weeks till I'm gone, and she's "free", and then do it? WHY!?

What an amazing thing! She just has to keep plunging the dagger, doesn't she?

Should I say something, or not?

April 7
Well, I did talk to her about it. I figured it did not make sense to keep it inside, as it would eventually come out, and best for it to come out in a peaceful, loving conversation rather than in anger or frustration later.

So I just said "I know you were in Orlando...and it saddens me, it even hurts, but at this stage it would probably be better if we didn't feel like we have to lie to each other."

She said she thought about it, but did not know how I'd react, so she didn't tell me.

She asked me why I'd received her like I did, and kiss her like I did when she came home if I knew she'd been to see him. I just said "because however difficult it may be for you to believe, I love you for what you are and for the place you have in my heart, not for what you do, don't do, say or don't say...and nothing is going to change that." That's probably one of those things she does not believe. But I still have to say it...

We talked a bit more, I again told her many things (most of which I don't think she believes) but I just had to reiterate for her. Mostly about me, and seeing, understanding, and accepting myself. And about regret at not having been able to find any way in all this time for us to come a bit closer, to give "us" a chance.

She was OK. She told me she also loves me, and that she would like to be able to be happy and in love with me more than anything...she asked if I thought it was still possible...I said I did, but that we'd both have to be committed, and both needed to REALLY, REALLY want it...and we'd both have to be honest about it to ourselves and to each other.

When we got home we had coffee, chatted a bit more. I hugged and kissed her again. She thanked me for all I did for her...and she asked me out to dinner, just she and I, tomorrow. Hmmmmm.....

On another note, M called me today. (M is the woman I "partied with" in CA last week). She asked me all about my divorce; I mean ALL about it. Then proceeded to tell me about her marital problems...I rolled my eyes! I thought; "this can't be happening!".

I had to stop her and just tell her that however much I might like to, she was still married, and she should do everything she can to fix her marriage, and that being in the situation I'm in (soon to divorce, surviving infidelity) it would be nuts to get involved with her. She said she could "get in trouble with me", and I said I could too! EASILY!; but that it'd be best if we remained friends, and leave it at that. That if anything was meant to happen, it would when it was right. But that while she's married, I'd not even consider it. Too crazy to be starting something like that when I've lived thru what I've lived thru.
Geez! SC the OM? NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!!

In fairness, I should probably tell D about that, right?

April 8
Something else I remembered...It's interesting, but when we were talking, and I said something like "...in a couple of weeks we'll be divorced and we'll both be living with our choices..." she seemed surprised. Like she thought I WAS going to go for her "separation" plan without anything in return. I know I shouldn't ask for anything in return, but in this case, it makes no sense not to. I mean if she's not willing to do SOMETHING to demonstrate her honesty at least, I think it would only be hurting myself more, and probably living in an illusion to think that things will be as she says. Don't you think?

I mean all I asked for was for her to demonstrate that she WAS, indeed cutting off all contact with me AND him during this "separation"...not too much to ask after all this, is it?

She said something then that I posted here and consider very significant, so I'll post it again. She said she now knew that in order to make up her mind, she KNEW she had to end ALL emotional attachments...with ME and HIM...during a separation so she'd be able to decide what she wants. So I think that's a very positive step; it's the only realistic way of doing it, I think. BUT I also have little reason to believe that she will actually do it. After all, NONE of what she's said before about contact has EVER turned out to be true...why should it be true now? Giving her the benefit of the doubt, AGAIN, as I have so many times before has only hurt me and lured me into a false sense of hope...and every time it's been harder and harder to recover from that. No sense in doing it again...no sense at all.

April 8
We are often the "recipients" of a whole lot of frustration, anger, and many other things simply because we're "there".

What I suspect happens is that unless we become conscious of doing that, we probably end up associating all that anger and frustration WITH the person we direct it to. And you can see what happens then...we're living it!

It's become increasingly easier for me to "criticize" with love and while expressing acceptance, but it hard. And it's harder for HER to see it as her defenses are always up and she's quite firm in her "knowing" what I will do, say, feel...so it's hard to break that pattern. Very hard.

Like I said to D yesterday; we both have to want to really badly, and if we do, and we're willing to look at ourselves in the mirror, really look, see and accept, and work on ourselves, THEN maybe we have a chance. Otherwise...it's not real...it's an illusion.

April 9
I went to dinner with D tonight, per her invitation...we had a nice dinner at one of our favorite places, "Houston's". (They have a KILLER apple cobbler! YUM!!! )

She started off by saying that she does not want a divorce, that she loves me and she's very reluctant to divorce because "we have so many things in common, apart from our 3 children." But that she completely understands that I need the divorce in order to "detach" from her...I guess she's right on that count! I do. That she has many things to work through. A lot of pain and hurt to get over, a lot of things we never had or had lost, and that she's had doubts about our being able to ever have any of that back. Doubts about being able to live "all of this" down someday. I simply said that I thought we had different opinions about how to go about this, but that I thought we could if we both wanted it and were willing to work on it. She seems to feel some of these things simply have to "happen"...

And I told her about M in San Francisco...what happened and what I did. Simply to say that I was unable/unwilling to become involved with someone else while we are still married...she didn't react to that at all, and I didn't press it. I did not tell her what M said, though...seemed almost cruel to do so.

I said that I knew this was not what "we" wanted, but that in light of the reality, I felt it is all we can do. I told her I understand her need for time, to get herself together, and that this is precisely what I had been trying to do for over a year; give her the time she needed to work through things until we could reach a point or find a way to come together in some way, and see if we could work our things out. That I'd been putting my needs/desires on hold for all that time, pretty much.
But that in the same way I understood this, she should also understand that I could not continue in limbo (or as we are now) while she's emotionally committed to another man, while there is no honesty between us, and while I am not getting the love and care that I need. She said she did.

She was crying on and off throughout all this. I was too, although less than she was.

She asked me if I'd still take her back at some point "maybe a month down the road" if I wasn't involved with someone else. I had the desire to say no, but my face revealed the truth as I was searching for a way to say no without being an [censored] about it, so I said simply that I was not just going to run out to find someone else immediately.

She asked me how I knew she'd gone to Orlando, so I told her. Then I asked her if she'd seen him and she said yes. She said she really meant to tell me she was going, but could not find the way to do it, so that's why she hadn't. Then she said that she'd gone to tell him their relationship was over. She sounded sincere. I WANT to believe her, too.

At this point her head dropped and she was really crying...all I could do was touch her face, her arm, and try to just be there for her.

She then said that she knew she was the one who had to "get herself together" that she was sorry she'd been unable to do it during all this time, that she knew I'd been trying in many ways, but that she knew now that she could not continue to live this way, and that she needed time away from both of us to get herself put back together.

I told her I understood, and that I was very glad she had come to this realization, and that she'd taken the necessary step of ending the relationship with N. That a large part of my concern was for her and what this relationship might lead her to. That It was precisely this process that I had been doing with myself for most of the time since this all started 18 months ago. And that I was very glad she'd decided to start this process herself. That I wished we could have done it together.

I told her that I'd always be there for her.

She'd calmed down pretty much by now, and I asked her "You fought so hard and so long to be allowed to get back in to see him just to tell him it was over?" She said "Yes. It was only for a few minutes that I was there." I didn't pursue it further. Clearly she was only there for 1 day. She flew from NY to Orlando on Sunday night, too late to get in to see him, and came back here on a late Monday afternoon flight, so at most it was a few hours on Monday.

I guess that's about it. I think we both know our "timing" is off, and I think we're both willing to live with that without making it nasty. In the end, I think we both love each other too much to make it a war-zone. We probably both need our time...on our own. We'll see how things go as we take some of the steps we need to take; sign the papers, tell the kids, get financial stuff in order, splitting things up, my packing, etc. No doubt there will be several more opportunities to "feel" what this will really be like.

I didn't tell her I saw a great apartment today, much closer into town than we live now ("where the action is"), and I filled in an application to move in May 1st. We actually drove right by it on the way back from the restaurant...I didn't have the heart to tell her right then.

More thoughts...

Last night after we got home, she was back to her "old defiant self", did not want to allow me to be close or anything like that. Same this morning; which I guess is to be expected.

I guess I can look at this two ways; either she will be driven back to the arms of the OM by my leaving, or she'll begin to see some of what she probably needs to do to "get it together". It would appear she has decided (or understood she needs) to do the latter, but only time will tell.

To me it feels like "too little, too late" for her to simply say she ended the R with the OM and wants a "separation" without putting any detail into it, without any "conditions" or clear goals or timeframe. Too many times when what she said turned out to be false. In fact, I don't believe ANYTHING she's ever said about the OM and their relationships has turned out to be TRUE!

And I think she realized last night, perhaps for the first time, that I will simply no longer accept any crumbs she chooses to throw my way. I was unimpressed by her saying she ended the R with the OM, and simply said I hoped this was true, as I felt this was exactly what she needed to do to start her process of healing.

But I'm not sure she'll "do this" well. She may end up either going back to him, or finding someone else if she sees things getting tough...especially if she sees I'm not willing to accept just ay old half-measure she may want and continue to wait. She seemed to want the reassurance that "I'd take her back" later if things turned out that way. Almost like "I know what I have to do to get you back, and if I have to I will, but I want to make sure you'll be open to TAKING me back after we divorce". Maybe I'm mis-interpreting some of this, I don't know.

I feel like she's crossed "the line" way too many times and way too far, and she needs to take several steps back before I'll consider anything else besides divorce, or before I'll consider re-starting anything after the divorce.

I hope what I said sinks in some: I deserve to be loved and cared for, I deserve an honest relationship, and I deserve the commitment of someone who is not emotionally committed elsewhere.

Well, I think I've made about the strongest statement ever around this issue by NOT asking her to reconsider, and by not simply accepting her word about the A ending, and by not accepting this "separation" she wants.

I think it's clear to her now (I don't see how it couldn't be clear before, but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt on that), that I will not just lie down and roll over for her. I don't mean that in a negative, "I win" way at all, but rather as a statement of having her accept the consequences of her decisions. I think too many times in the past I was guilty of covering for her in many ways.

I have no idea if this has quite hit her yet, or sunk in far enough, but clearly as I begin to pack, decide with her how we're going to tell the kids, have her sign the papers, start dividing house stuff up, etc. It'll become more and more evident that this is no joke...that it's no longer the "status quo" she's managed to maintain all this time. THIS IS IT. The real McCoy. Rubber on Road.

And I will make no predictions about any changes, but it'll certainly be a series of shocks, a series of reminders. You know what's REALLY weird? That when it comes right down to it, the ONE thing Steve Harley told her she needed to do way back when if she wanted to save this is still quite true: "Radical Honesty and Proof." I'm sure she hasn't made that connection yet, but she might one day.

I'm actually getting excited at the prospect of my own place, of doing my own thing, of NOT having the majority of the burden of responsibility for everything around the house/kids stuff/finances...quite refreshing! I may be going a bit far to the other side of the pendulum on that right now, but it sure feels good!

I just feel like for the first time in a long time I'm asserting my rights, and doing it in a non-threatening way, and it feels good. This is probably the first time during all of this that she's actually believing that I will walk away. I don't think she thought I ever would. And what's probably worse, from her view of the world at least, is that all the while I am being loving, caring, thoughtful, understanding, and kind. I think in her view of the world that is not something I could ever be. Much less while we're divorcing. That has to be distressing...she can't really even feel very victimized by this.

Thoughts just keep coming...I'll stop for now.

SC:

I for one think you're doing good. (and I managed to say so in far less space than usual!).

Maybe this DV and you moving into your apt is just what D needs to wake up. In any case, you do deserve a happy, honest life!

♥Qfwfq

Space,

I for one am in agreement with you to stay the course. You are right on remembering what SH said about NC & proof.

As recently as last weekend she hasn't been able to do that. Also my thoughts regarding people who are chronically dishonest come to bear here.

Her reason for not telling you in advance about the trip to Orlando is "all about her". She didn't want/couldn't face telling you in advance what she was doing because SHE didn't want to feel the pain of her choice.

It would have been a huge change in behavior if she had told you in advance. That might have been something to hold on to. As it stands, she lied like she always has, and probably you would never have known once again if not for your independent investigation. None of this is new behavior on her part.

To quote Dr. Phil - "The best predictor of future behavior is recent past behavior". I'm sure he worded it better than that, but I think it's true.
Also she is finally faced with some actual consequences for her actions, because you are moving forward with your life. It sounds as though she is worried about what people will think about her and more... it's still all about her!

Maybe you just haven't posted this type of thing; but has she communicated any empathy for you? She doesn't appear to be able to see things from your perspective at all.

God bless you! I think you are doing marvelously, and are moving forward with the right heart. BLessings CSue

Honestly, apart from some apologies I got way back at the start of this more than 18 months ago, there has been very little in the way of empathy or remorse.
Furthermore, what little I got was sadly overshadowed by her continued lies and deception over the intevening months, seriously eroding any value they may have had, and seriously calling into question the honesty behind them in the first place.
Apart from that, maybe only expressions of understanding that I will do what I feel I must do. She's shown some understanding/acceptance of this.
I think it is only now, in the last few days, that she is finally realizing I will no longer take whatever little she wishes to hand out, and that the relative peace she'd found in continuing the relationship while we're still married is coming to an end.
I think it's hard on her to really start seeing her world crumble. This is probably the first time since this started that she has lost "control" of things. Maybe except for the time when she was not allowed to visit him.
(Which, by the way, is appalling to me; they have now allowed her back as a visitor to the prison!)
All I can say is that I hope against all hope that it IS true that she ended the R with the OM. If no longer for my sake, certainly for hers, her future, and the children.

<small>[ April 09, 2003, 06:58 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Hey there SC,

Sounds like you are strong and on the right track. I agree with CSue, Dr. Phil rings in my ears too. You've had her be dishonest too many times about OM to trust her this time. I fear she'd continue to be a cake eater if you didn't go ahead with the Dv.

BTW, I am amazed at how civil you both are with one another. Way to go. The old and naive Jen would take such civility on my spouse's part as an incredible positive sign if I were in your shoes. (Oh he's being nice to me, I have a chance!) But you have learned so much more, you know better.

Stay the course I say! You seem to have had enough.

Jen

Oh, I'm sure the "civility" is born out of my insistence on being civil and decent. Were I to take any other tack, I'm sure it'd be reciprocated in kind or worse.

I haven't allowed it to get un-civil. From being very generous in our divorce agreement, to any and all discussion of her activities, future, etc.

It makes no sense to make such a painful situation even more painful by adding spite, recriminations and all that other good stuff!

SC,

You know there will come a time when you have to tell her exactly what you have posted here, "I have gotten nothing but lies and deceit from you with little or no remorse for what you have done." Eventually, she will have to hear that from you.

Personally, SC I think the DV is going to open your eyes more than hers. I think you are going to realize that there are far better prospects out there than your W. She, on the other hand, is going to find the opposite.

I am not saying this to make you feel good. I am firmly convinced this marriage has been more toxic for you than you realize. I am also convinced she won't know what she really has lost until the younger kids leave home for school.

I keep hope alive that she will see the light, but honestly if she does it will probably be the 5 o'clock freight coming through.

Hang in there SC, you are doing better than you think.

God Bless,

JL

SC - just wanted to give you a thumbs up here. Everything you write here, I nod in agreement. You're "ahead" of me in your evolution, so I can see the similarities as they develop. Keep on!
Cheers, Nick from London.

Space.....

We are "this close" to sending our child to a residental treatment center just outside Houston .... once he's there, Mr. Pepper and I will fly to Texas for occasional visits. Maybe we can get together and smear rib sauce all over our faces. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Tough love is REAL LOVE Space. I learned it during recovery from Mr. Pep's A, and I am applying tough love in our current family crisis.

Do not be afraid when you know you are applying tough love. It is a healthy choice. Tough love actually communicates respect to the loved one:

" I love you so much that I'm going to apply higher standards to our relationship. I believe you and I are worth so much more than the standards we have had in the past. I think we are both capable of better!"

YOU "get this" right now. D "getting it" .... is up to D. D does not "get it" at this point in time, because she still lies to avoid natural consequences of her choices. Your tough love will communicate that you think she is capable of better standards of conduct than lying and cheating.

Have a great weekend. We are leaving in a few minutes to New York for a wedding.

God Bless Spacecadet!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Pepper:

Take your laptop with you. I've missed your insight!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-Qfwfq

JL;
I'm afraid you're right, and it's been a difficult thing for me to internalize. But I'm truly glad it'll be over soon. Actually looking forward to it.

Nick; Many thanks. Stick to your beliefs.

Pep;
Truly sorry to hear that about your kid. But I'd be honored to meet you & your H if/when you're in the area!
I know I'm doing the right thing. Which doesn't make it any easier! But I'm getting over it quicker that I thought.

Thanks for your support!

SC:

Just plan out your interior decorating schemes for that apartment soon, and you'll be okay!

-ol' Qfwfq
P.S. And make sure there's plenty of room in that fridge for jars of Pe-Te's BBQ sauce! I may show up at any time, you know! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ April 10, 2003, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: Qfwfq ]</small>

Hi Cadet and JL,

Ok JL so you are the one! Well I am glad you both had a nice time.

May we all meet one day and see whether we all look like what we post like! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Cadet, good to hear all of this has not set you back. Actually I am quite proud of your progress. Looks like you are able to move forward. A major turning point from a few months ago. Seemed like the future of moving forward was soooo far away and yet look at you.

U give me hope. U R A success. And from the sound of Q's posting, U might be giving WAT a run for that coveted BBQ Chef title! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I know you are facing a lot right now. Know that you have support here and abroad (not a broad - LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ).

take care,
L.