so you are trying to fight to bring your wife back.and now imagine you've made it.do you think you will be happy?could you live with the heavy load of the past

larisa
thats what I'm beginning to think..will I always be her doormat.. will I always wonder who she is with and what she is doing?? the biggest point is that she continues to say thatshe has no interest insaving the marriage.. she wants oot.. I can only assume to bring the OM in to her bed.. I really do feel sorry for her in that if this guy is willing to deceive his wife will he deceive her..who knows,, Not sure what I feel..I am sure that there is a woman out there who will traet me like gold.. but where is she???
MORTARMAN>>>>
whats your take.. is it worth the shot.. how long did it take for your wife to come out of the fog. and was it just making yourself the better guy..I do love her but today I spoke to her twive about how I can take care of her and she can always rely on me..ect... I guess this is not what I am suppose to be saying...I'll just shut up and try to be the best Marathonman as possible.. not say a word.. however,, there is going to coke a day when I decide that.. she is not worth the effort and she will be the big loser in the end..
I just want a loving house for my girls.

Marathonman,

You sound a lot better. Good! Now you are ready to begin. There are some initial steps you need to take. First off…you are probably depressed. This is not helpful. Go see the Doc, and ask for some anti-depressants. They will help keep you even-keeled, and will help suppress your libido (which is helpful in trying to keep your hands off your wife for awhile! This will be a LONG process and many of your needs will go unmet.). So, make an appointment for this next week and go. It usually takes around 3-6 weeks for the meds to fully integrate, so the sooner you start, the better. I hate taking drugs. And I didn’t for the first 7 months of this crisis. And I paid every minute for it. Once I started taking the meds at the beginning of December, it was around 2-3 weeks later, and I was fully engulfed in my plan, little to no LBs, and the end became near for the OM. So, equip yourself for this battle. Your wife has lost her mind. Do not go with her. You MUST be the one to keep your head. The Doc can help!

Okay, let me get to your posts because you raise some great issues.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">mortarman. thanks a million...she seemed to be in a better mood yesterday when she came home. Guess that she had a chance to speak to the OM and was probably told that he still wants to be with her.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay. First lesson. She is going to have good days and bad days with the OM. You will know when she has good days because she will be in a great mood. When she is in a bad mood, or taking things out on you, then you will probably know that things aren’t great that day with him. This is one of the “great” rides in the park! Don’t ride it! How, you say? By not getting your hopes up or down depending on the mood of the day. She will go up and down. Shoot…my wife and I are in recovery, and she still goes up and down every couple of days. Your wife is a MESS emotionally. There is no quick cure. Like I said in a previous post, she is lost…don’t follow the lost! If you follow the lost, where will you be? Lost! Look at her as having an illness. Most WSs recover from this illness. Some recover quickly…some take more time. You are not in control on how fast she recovers…except in the fact that you can make it take LONGER! Listen to the “doctors” (Harley, Carder, etc.). They know the cure. They know how best you can help your wife. Follow the plan, and she will recover.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he has said in the past that things were not good with his wife..so he was just comforting my WW to believe that things are going to be okay.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, lesson number one was don’t follow the lost. Lesson number two is don’t listen to what the OM has to say, or his view on life. He is willing to sleep with a married woman, to destroy her family, to destroy his own family, the spouses involved, AND especially all of the kids involved, to get what he wants. The OP is ALWAYS out for themselves, and don’t care who they hurt. My wife’s OM, as things were ending last month, called my wife “selfish.” Now, is he the pot…or the kettle? I’m not sure. Of course my wife is selfish. She used the OM. Just as your wife is using your OM. But don’t get caught up in the musings of an idiot. Again, your wife is lost and following someone else who is also lost. Doesn’t make much sense to follow either one of them, does it? Forget about the OM…he is not your problem…yet. I say yet because once you get into recovery, then he will be your problem. My wife’s OM now knows that since she has decided to end things and come home, that any contact by him will meet with a response from the Mortarman. NOW, he is my business, and I will protect my wife and my family from him. Right now, your wife is MIA. The woman with the OM is not your wife. She isn’t acting like your wife, or sounding like your wife. Your wife will return. Wait for her, and ignore the idiots. Most of what they say are lies anyway, both to you, and to each other.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she raelly wants to start something with this guy. as she says nothing has really happened.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IT DOESN’T MATTER! I know it does matter. No man wants to know of their wife physically with another man. But, MM…it doesn’t matter because there is nothing you can do about it. You cant lock her up and you cant stone her. Get off of what she says she wants. She doesn’t know what she wants, no matter what she says. My wife admitted yesterday that during the end with the OM, the OM went off on her, saying she had the last year and a half to get her divorce, and she hasn’t done anything accept separate. He said he would pay for the divorce, but wanted her to get moving. My wife walked out of that discussion asking herself “Why haven’t I divorced Mortarman yet?” You know what her response to herself was? She has figured out that she NEVER wanted a divorce. That she was lost, hurt, angry, etc and that is how all this got started. She did not know what she was doing, no matter how much it sounded like she did. Talk to other WSs on here. The fog will make them sound like they have their heads on straight…but believe me, they don’t. And they will admit as much when they come out of the fog and see how foolish they looked and acted. So again, you will hear me and others say…don’t listen to idiocy. Stay rational, stay with the plan. You have truth, reality, God, statistics, etc overwhelmingly on your side. Let them try to beat the odds…to beat God. If this wasn’t so emotionally damaging to us, it would be almost fun to watch them flip around like fish in the bottom of a boat!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">really apprec iate all the kind word from you guys , it is really helping with the coping. again please tell me I'm on the right path..1) dont leave..2) make house as peaceful 3) be a freind.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No problem. Many have been here to help me and I feel like it is my turn to show what I know and have experienced. And you are the first on here that is the closest to what I have seen in my own wife and life. The right path? HHmmmmm. Your path will be unique. You will have to be prepared at all times. Believe half of what you see, and a quarter of what you hear. Know when things are lies, and when you get the truth out of your wife. How? Well I showed you in my last two posts how to pull truth out of psychobabble. When she talks, don’t react. Just listen and take in every word. Then later, sit down and find the truth in the fog talk. It is there, I assure you. My wife would say “It is over,” or “it just wont work, I have to move on,” or “you had your chance…I need someone who will appreciate me.” And on and on. She will change your history around, making every bad thing you ever did (and even some things you never did) larger than life, and throw out all of the good things. She will do the opposite with the OM. Let me show you an example of historical revisionism and how NOT to react to it.

Say your wife says “You never helped me around the house.” Now, you know that you helped from time to time. Remember last Tuesday, when you cleaned the dishes and washed the kitchen floor? How could she say such a thing? So you fire back “That’s bull@@@@! I did the dishes the other day, mopped the floor…I help all of the time. What about those incidents?” You know what you will get in return for telling her the truth? ANGER! The “buts” will come out, and she will eventually accuse you of not listening to her “feelings.” I know, I know. As a man, we cannot fully understand this. If she says the grass is red, and I show her it is green, then how am I supposed to listen to her feelings? The reality is, grass is green. But she “feels” it is red. Perception is reality my man! You want to change her reality, then you have to change her perception. So, you go to her and say, in the case of the grass…”Honey, I know the grass is green, but I also know that you feel that it is red. Why do you feel that it is red?” The answer you will get is the key to EVERYTHING! In the working around the house example, instead of defending yourself (the WORSE thing you can do with someone in the fog), you say something like “While I can give you specific examples of how I have helped you around the house, honey, I don’t want to argue about that. I’d like to know that, since I have helped around here at times, what is it that you are saying? Why do you feel that I never help you around the house?” And then listen. You know what? The helping around the house was one of the issues my wife brought up. I did help. But, what she felt was that my help came with a price. That she had to ask, rather than me ask. That she had to tell me what to do, instead of me seeing the need and just doing it. So, in my mind, had I been helping? Sure! But in hers, by her having to ask, direct and badger, my help was not much help. This one example is how you learn to be a better husband, MM. Women and men do not see things in the same light. Defending yourself because you are “technically” correct WILL NOT HELP! Find out why she feels the way she does. Find the truth of her reality. Then work on yourself, so her perception will change.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she is stuck in the past and cant open her eyes to see that I can be the better husband to her.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See above. She is focused on the past. Let her live there. She has changed history, because that is the only way she can justify what she is doing. Don’t go there with her. Let her believe whatever she wants. Truth will win out in the end.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but I have it in my heart that she only wants this guy in her bed and cannot wait. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe. Again, you cannot worry about this. It will only put you on the rollercoaster. You cannot control this. Concentrate on what YOU can do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she is not willing to try to work things out.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right now…sure. You must wait for your opportunity. Decide if you want this marriage, then do what you have to and be patient.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will only work on myself and try to show her the new and improved marathonman. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just be a great MM. Don’t try to show her…then it will be false. When my wife noticed the clean house, and the prepared meals for me and the kids, I didn’t have to “show” her. I didn’t even know she was “watching.” It wasn’t until later that I realized that I had made a lasting impact on her, and her ability to believe in the changes. And it is because I made the changes for ME, not her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mediation is really going to suck .. her mind is set…</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is going to suck. But remember, this will be one of many reality checks for her. When my wife and I started in on custody negotiations, it really started her realizing that her life was going to change…that she might be losing more than she thought. So, look at mediation as an opportunity. Look at every thing you do with her, around her, to her, etc as an opportunity to show that you are the ONLY one that really loves her. You don’t have to say anything. Just show her. Remember, OM is only out for himself. If you are the ONLY unselfish one involved here, your WW will notice the difference between you and him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and again its going to be a battle to bring her back.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The battle is to improve you…and to be prepared for her return. Make the changes and fight the battle in order to improve you. When she wakes up, then you will be ready. I keep saying this…do not try to bring her home. She will only fight harder against you. Just stay with the plan.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If it is felt that all WS come out of the fog I only hope that I'll be there for her when she does.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may not. I was VERY close to no return in my walk. My wife showed up probably a month before it would have been too late (see my posts). But, most come out within 6-12 months…some sooner. Mine came out 9 months after the affair seeing the light of day.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but since she says that the OM has been her best friend for a few years. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mine said the same thing. Fog talk. Psycho babble. Miy wife recently admitted that OM had been no friend of hers, that he was selfish, and he had helped destroy her life. A big change from two months earlier, when she couldn’t say enough good things about him. And that brings up a point. When they say how wonderful the OM is…it is a LIE. Not to you, but to themselves. They are trying to make themselves believe it. Stay with the truth. Let her figure it out on her own. You CANNOT protect your wife now. Just make a safe place for her to come home, once the destruction she is causing is over.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she may think that he is her soul mate.. but again.. she may also realize that the guy may just be a pathetic loser who is trying to use her for his own gain... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See what I wrote above. She KNOWS the truth. She is ignoring it. Don’t help her. The easiest way for a WS to ignore the truth is through the anger they have at the BS. So, don’t give her a reason to be angry (like they need a reason!). Once the anger subsides, then the lies can no longer stand.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am worried since both have told that each other will be leaving their spouses.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And will they? We will see. Remember, less than 5% actually leave their spouses and end up with their lovers. If I told your wife that I want her to bet everything she has and owns and her entire future on something that only has a 5% success ratio, do you think she would do it? Of course not. But she is not in reality right now. When it does come around, she will see how foolish she has been.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I only hope that the OM's wife gave him a big enough blast.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife’s OM was already divorced. I wish I would have had his wife in the battle. That will be a HUGE asset to you. Not because both of you will work together on this (as a matter of fact, don’t. If it looks like you are working together, it may keep your WW and OM together because they will feel like they are being ganged up on and they will “circle the wagons.”

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but in my heart I think that there are a lot of lies floating around.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is ALL based on lies. Stay with the truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">mortarman.... how do i find your threads so I can go back and look.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am working on putting them all on one thread. Hopefully will finish tonight. I will let you know when I get it done!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">larisa, thats what I'm beginning to think..will I always be her doormat.. will I always wonder who she is with and what she is doing?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM, I wonder the same thing sometimes. But it is amazing to see my wife out of the fog now. She is the woman I knew. It is almost like I can fully trust her, because the woman involved in this mess is dead. But I still have moments, I still have triggers. It will be a process. But first things first. You are not at the recovery and reconciliation stage yet. Don’t worry about your senior year in high school while you are still in 1st grade. Just worry about first grade.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the biggest point is that she continues to say that she has no interest insaving the marriage.. she wants out.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And she will continue to say it, to tell herself. Right up to the day before she comes home! Don’t listen to the PB.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can only assume to bring the OM in to her bed.. I really do feel sorry for her in that if this guy is willing to deceive his wife will he deceive her..who knows,, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If they will do it with you, they will do it to you! Remember what I told you about the OM above? She will see it eventually, as long as you stay out of the way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure what I feel..I am sure that there is a woman out there who will traet me like gold.. but where is she??? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You’re right, she is out there. God will be faithful to you, as long as you are faithful to Him. Who is this woman? It may be Mrs. Marathonman. You don’t know. Be ready, get better, and be prepared for the “new” Mrs. Marathonman, whether or not that is the current one, or someone else.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MORTARMAN>>>>whats your take.. is it worth the shot.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Buddy…there is NO WAY I can answer that for you. If you want me to tell you that it will be easy, that success is assured…well, I’d be lying to you. You want me to guarantee your wife comes back…cant do that either. The odds are in your favor, but hey…we’ve all lost in life haven’t we? What makes it worth the shot to me is that I have three kids that now have the chance to get their normal family life back…to grow up in the “perfect” home. That has been what pushed this over the edge. If we had been without kids…maybe I wouldn’t have tried so hard. But, I did this for 5 people…for my kids, for myself…and even for my wife. And in the end…as my wife returns home, she has thanked me for keeping her family together and keeping the door open. Your wife will feel like she will never be able to measure up or repay you for what you are doing. Isnt that the irony? You go from being the world’s worst husband, to a man that she feels like she doesn’t deserve. But in the end…even if your marriage doesn’t make it out, it will be worth it for two reasons. First, you can look your kids in the eyes and say that you did EVERYTHING you could to save their family. Second, you will have made a better MM, and the new woman in your life will benefit from this. Too bad for the old Mrs MM! She’ll miss out. And you had better believe that, since you have kids, she will have the opportunity to see this great MM…but someone else will be on the receiving end. And you can just smile as you pass by, knowing she blew it…and she KNOWS it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">how long did it take for your wife to come out of the fog. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, a quick synopsis. I went to Bosnia in Sept 2001 on a deployment for 7 months. Things weren’t great. Wife fell apart emotionally right after I left and Om stepped in at gym and sucked her in. They kept relationship up while I was gone, living in fantasyland. She even shipped my kids to her mothers 1700 miles away so OM could stay at our house. I found out (D-Day) on April 6, 2002…three days after returning home. I was blown away. We have had many false starts. In July 2002, she notifies me she is separating, and takes half the money from the sale of our house and moves out on August 1st. She begins fulltime with OM again. Over the next 3 months, we have two “reconciliations,” only for them to fall apart. Most of the reason they fell apart was due to my inability to stay the course in Plan A. I would LB a lot. At the beginning of December, I got Prozac. Three weeks later, I go to full out Plan B. Six weeks later, my wife shows up at the door…no longer in the fog. She will be in the fog as long as she needs. You can only extend that time, not lessen it. My wife would have been home months ago…and probably would have never separated, if I had gone to get the meds right away and stuck with the plan.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and was it just making yourself the better guy.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not until December. I spent 7 months KILLING myself trying to get my wife back. When I made it only about myself, and being a better Mortarman, that’s what caused reality to start seeping into my wife’s and OM’s lives.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do love her but today I spoke to her twice about how I can take care of her and she can always rely on me..etc... I guess this is not what I am suppose to be saying...I'll just shut up and try to be the best Marathonman as possible.. not say a word.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Words are not going to mean anything…at least not without action. Don’t tell her you are better…let her just see it. Then, when she notices, then you can say something about it. Let me show you. Here is the wrong way to show that you are doing more around the house. “Look, honey. I am willing to do anything for you. I have folded all the clothes, done all the cleaning.” Her response will not be what you think. Now, the right way. You fold the clothes, you do all the cleaning. You do it day in and day out, without a word spoken. One day, a few months later, a little blurb will come out of your wife’s mouth like “you really have gotten the hang of doing things around here. You never used to do it.” Instead of saying “Yes I did help before,” you instead say “Thanks. I really am glad I have learned to do this. I really don’t even think about it now. I just do it.” You see the difference?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">however,, there is going to come a day when I decide that.. she is not worth the effort and she will be the big loser in the end.. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That may happen. I was very close to it back in January. And then the Lord led my wife to my door. Yes, they will be the big loser. If you will stay with the plan, and work on you, you don’t have to be a loser…no matter what happens.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just want a loving house for my girls. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When you feel like giving up, think of them. Your example will save them from making the same mistakes you and your wife have. Let them see you as the strong one. They will lean on you. Be the example. Remember, they are the biggest link to your wife. When they lean on you, your wife will notice. And if your kids are trusting you in all of this instead of her, she will notice. And she will see that she is the foolish one.

Hang tough MM. You are just in the beginning. You are about where I was last May…and reconciliation for us didn’t start until 9 months later. Get busy working on you. Since your wife isn’t there, use this alone time to do things you need to while being alone. Get projects done and things you never had time for with wife and kids around. That way, when she does come back, they will be done.

In His arms.

Mortarman.
Once again thanks...spoke to wife last night and told me that she spoke with OM on Friday and said his wife has not said anything about my conversation with his wife... she gave me a real smug lokk as to say "you loser" I got my man and you cant stop me..also last night she said that I have treated her bad for the last 4 years and she is not going to accept anything short of a divorce...says too much hurt to try again.. definitely NOT AN OPTION,,wants this over quick. I know I cant worry about the OM moving in since I know that is what she wants.. MY ww is the type of person who thinks things through before she makes a decision.. so you can be 100%sure that she is making the right one in her eyes,and that includes bringing the OM in to her bed. I went to the doctor for coucelling two times and she says I am going to be fine..did not offer any meds. I dont know what she'll think if I go back and ask..but I do need to get my head on straight... Mortarman... I know both you and I are in the same boat..but If I spent that last few years distroying my marriage and drove my wife away.. how can I expect her to come back.. she feels that she is not going to be a sucker for punishnent and refuses to go through that again.. I also told her that the marriage we had is over.. but we can have a better one now!! again not a chance..I do want a normal life for my kids.. But is it really a fog she is in..the OM was and is a seperate issue..she was leaving me anyway..maybe its reality..I think she is in love with her best friend of a few years.. what a better way to start a new life thanwith her best friend.. she says I never was her best freind.. she came home a few years afo and started talking about him as her best friend and now his wife told me he has been saying the same thing. Once more it seems that I am fighting a losing battle.
BUT I have to make myself the best MM possible in all ways... Try my hardest not to talk about the OM.. try to help out around the house as much as possible,,, take the girls to school in the morning,,ect..when I asked her to right down what I did wrong in the hopes of being a better MM.. she states that 1) I did not respect her all the time in bed.. asked her to do things that she did not want to do( made her feel degraded).. but whwn we were first going out it was always fine...what up with that??? 2) I did not respect her decision that she wanted a D. Both I cannot change... she is not in bed with me .. and the D is in motion..no mention if any of not helping around the house ect. Its going to be hard to keep my mouth shut and let everything happen..and try to work around the house as much as possible. I really think that she has been hurt to much.. for her to come back in the end... maybe this is one of those cases where a reunion will probably not happen..her sister who is divorced has told me.. the lady who took care of my daughters for % years has told me.. it will not happen..her family says it wont happen and our best freinds say it will not happen.. My only glimmer of hope is seeing what you and everyone else here has gone through and use that as my basis of hope...aside from that God is there to guide me.. I have to fight to get my family back together.. Mortarman..I assure you that once my ww either leaves or forces me to leave.. court order saying that life is too stressful, she is too stubburn and set in her ways to look back and the new and improved MM will be out of her mind..I know I keep on saying the same things over and over .. but I really appreciate the help.. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE keep in coming. We have started talking about custody and she is set in her ways that I cannot take care of our girls as good as she can.. does not want joint...Its the only way I can have the best access to them since I am willing to do what ever it takes to save this family.. she says that when I am trying to make her feel guilty by giving her cards or my mother telling her stories of families with terminally ill kids who fight for everything to save the family..thats all Im going to say for now because I am starting to babble...I really think its too late for a new start and too late for her to realize she is making the wrong decision..I will try to live by your suggestions..today is a new day..I will continue to pray.. and please pray for MM...I am sure God will know who you are talking about..God wil not let me down.. I know he will take us allin his arms and dowhat is best... even if it is with my ww and the OM together,, IN the end MM and Mrs/MM will be together again in a very good relationship..My goal..

How.. do I get her to admit to having intercourse with the OM.. she swears up and down she has'nt.. but now that she wants absolutely no touching.. I am sure that they have been phyical... Mortarman.. I know that you said that I canyt do anything about it/.. I kust want her to admit it!!

Hi Marathonman

Lokk, it really doesn't matter if she admits it or not....she has. Better not to focus on that,OK? Look at the big picture and re read the posts from Mortarman. Stop dwelling on the sex issue just assume they have and stop thinking about it. If they are planning to leave their spouses they will have. If she is rejecting you then they have-women seem to be unable to carry on the pretence of sex with an OM and a spouse, men are easier able to.Re read Mortarman's posts and accept you are in this for the long haul. Read as much as you can and avoid triggers as much as possible.

Stay calm and block the triggers they don't help. And get some antidepressants.

Regards,
Deluded

deluded
thanks.. although she swears up and down that she has not I have it in my mind she has.. she says I'm making up lies and believing them..she wont let me touch her, she does not want me to kiss her... the whole thing.. this really has been hard for me.. and I want to save my marriage.. but that trust thing starts on coming back..
I just have to be the best marathonman possible..
and hope she comes out of the fog.

It is very hard my friend but you have no choice but to get through it one way or another. And if you set your sights on improving yourself then you are a winner no matter what! I know that may be cold comfort at the moment-the rollercoaster throws you around a lot, but remember....take the long term view. What is your aim-to be a better person for yourself and if your W comes back, fantastic, if she doesn't, well,you are the better man and will bring a whole lot more to your next R. You will have-already are starting to-learnt so much about yourself and relationships.
Keep the angry outbursts, the tears and the begging away from your WS-they don't want to see it. Don't do needy. You are stronger than you think you are. You will be fine.Repeat it every day-I am strong and can do anything!

Keep posting it does help. I haven't had many replies lately to my posts so I know it does help when people do reply.

Deluded

<small>[ March 16, 2003, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Deluded ]</small>

thanks deluded I can only make myself the better marathonman.. if she sees and comes back great otherwise shes *&(* out of luck when she realizes what a big mistake she has made..

Mortarman or anyone.. got my mind set on plan a this morning andf to initiate no LB or anything negative..My wife just laughs at me and says she is not going back into a marriage with me.. says I drove her away...I really belive that this is the end and that there will never be a reunion .. my poor daughters..how could I ever let this happen to them.. my wife is waiting to start something full blown .. only problem I'm still in the house.. I have been told not to leave.. but she is making it so difficult..I donyt want to gtive up.. but i am going to have to.. she is in no fog.. just making the right decision to get me out of her life.. when I said to het that she is turning her back on the family she says sshe isnt just, shes turning her back on me..HOW CAN THIS BE PB>> SHE IS SO mean about all of this..how can this be fog talk....

Look hang in there MM remember? Believe half of what you see and less than a quarter of what you hear. Of course it is PB and I think in a way the more she tells you how awful you are, the more she is trying to convince herself.She has only to look at your children to question herself no matter how much persuading OM does. BE calm-you sound very agitated and that just fuels her-be calm and no LB's, no anger , I even think no desperate questioning at this point.

And there is NO WAY you should leave. If anyone goes it should be her. Do not leave your family home. Have you seen a solicitor yet-you need one to protect your rights.

Deluded

Hey MM and all men: I was on the website the other day Crosswalk.com and I found the most interesting thing I've seen yet. Get on the page, click on family/marriage. You will see different topics and articles about marriage/infidelty. But in there a pastor has a section called "A checklist for husbands". It lists all types of bahaviors, attitudes, characteristics, lovebusting mannerisms etc. There about 120 things itemised. OH, LORD WHAT AN EYEOPENER!!! I printed it out, one for me and one to give to my H when the time is right. The pastor says for husbands to read over each thing that might apply to them and then pray over each. I believe you will have a clearer perspective of the things you may have done wrong (and right) concerning you and your W. And the reason I printed it out for me too is I wanted to see how closely we matched up. It is short, easy to review and VERY POWERFUL.Check it out... Good luck I will be praying for you.

Oh, one more thing regarding crosswalk.com, after you click on the marriage then on the left where they have marriage faq's that's where you want to be. Pastor Don Dunlap is the guy.

deluded/ljmk3
you both are wondreful women.. thanks,,I was getting ready to thow in the towel..but you have given me hope again. Even if there is no affir right now..she is really hurt from the psat few years.. says I reallt traeted her bad and she had enough..I have seen the errs of my ways and know I can treat her like a queen. How can I make her change her mind..she wants me out.. mediation is going to start full time next week..she does not want to give a chance in any way.. idf you can only see her, you will know that see means business. I really cant see how she is going to start loving me after she has just finished saying that she does not love me anymore and cant wait to get on with her life.. preferrablly with me out of the house.

MM - in another post you asked me to respond to this as a WS. I'll try to help more later after I get the kids to bed, but was wondering something. Nowhere in this thread have I seen anything about what you think you should change. For YOU...not necessarily for her...but it could be a by-product.

Despite all this "fog" talk, there has to be many reasons your marriage was on the rocks to begin with and you contributed to them. OM or not.

As for your concern as to whether it is a PA vs. an EA...everyone is telling you they have had sex. Well, maybe not...never happened in my situation, but as everyone has said, it really doesn't matter. It was just as damaging anyway. In some ways more so!

As I said, I will post more later, but for now, please read over this thread again...especially Mortarman's stuff. He has lived it from your shoes. In your request to me, you stated that you are "running out of time". This makes me think you are not hearing the things you are told here. Take it from Mortarman...if you do the things necessary to make you better, you have time.

<small>[ March 16, 2003, 08:30 PM: Message edited by: CantThinkofAName ]</small>

MM - I think you have received some great advice here and you need to take it all to heart and work on yourself.

Let your W and OM run it's course. I was best friends with my OW for 7 years before either of us revieled marriage problems to the other. After we did, I saw a very different side of her. She chose to handle things very differently than I did. This is one of the things that has lead to me trying harder for my marriage and for OW venomously hating me.

In another thread, you said that our situations are very similar. There is one thing that is different because of which I can not help you much. My W & I were never angry with each other. Although I said I don't love my W and never have (and still believe that now), how could I be angry with her for loving me? And now that I am seeing how much she does, why not try to find some love?

Take what I said in the above paragraph into consideration when I say this. EVERYONE here has told you not to leave. In my situation, it has worked well. I was the one that wanted out and asked her to leave. She did (reluctently). Seeing that she was willing to do that to give me time to think helped alot. Mind you, I didn't have an OP, so your situation is different. There were also financial and logistical considerations to take into account, but my W & I have always been able to talk about these things even when seperating. I think WS's by our nature need to be controlling. If you buck the system, we get defensive. If my W had insisted on staying, I would have been out and probably moving on soon. Keep in mind though that my situation was different!

One thing you said made me curious...you said that your W will not allow joint custody because she is a much better parent than you (something to that affect). You don't seem to be arguing that point. Why is that? Is that important to her? If so, SHOW her you are a good parent. Whenever you have the kids, do something fun. Talk about the day with them, so it leaves an impression on them and they will tell Mom.

Also, please don't do the crying and breaking down in front of her. Show her that you are strong! You can't take whatever she deals you. Like I said, one thing WS's need is control. Even when I no longer had OW, I still wanted out. I was in control and would be fine for the rest of my life alone. All women were evil and I didn't need them at all!

Marathonman -As many have said, this is a long process. It will not change tomorrow. But if you make changes in yourself, it WILL change. It will be better for you and your W or it will be better for you. Period.

Cant think of a name.. thanks for the kick in the pants...your not my father eh!
I really have no anger towards her and deep in her heart I know she still loves me. Problem she said to me last night was that living with me is stressful.. says I have too much energy. On the custody side she would like to have the girls with her, since it would be more stable. I think that she also questions my ability to care for them alone. I love my girls and want to have as much time together as possibe..joint would be the best option in that case for me. It's going to be hard but I can do it..In the mean time..I have to listen and not leave the house..financially it may be hard but I can do it..On the crying side..I have got to give that a rest..I am much stronger then I am letting on to her...time to go into Plan A without failure..thanks for responding all the info is helping.
MORTARMAN.. All the info you have given is really strting to sink in...I know in one of your past posts you saaid that if I continue the way I am going ..I will be hanfdling the situatin ...
BADLY. I will print all the info off today ..review and start anew with a fresh Plan A.. No LBS, no hugging, no crying. Once again I cant tell you guys how much I appreciate your help.. especially you Mortarman. Pleasedont hesitate to keep the advise coming.

marathonman:

I'm really starting to like the new "sound" of you. I'm glad that others with situations more like your own have chimed in with such great advice.

You're going to make this, marathonman!
-Qfwfq

I'll continue ther best I can with Plan A...no LBS be the best MM pooseeible Ect,Trying to swallow my pride with her continuing to say that she is not comning back.. she has'nt left the house..and is not interested in saving marriage .. mabe if one of us leaves she will come around.. but believe me she is stubburn..I hope I'm not setting myself up for a real big disappointment.. thaks to all again

mortarman or anyone...last night she said that there was just too much neagtive from the past for her to want to try to save anything..she said I hurt her with many years of treating her like garbage.. although I know I have and will change..do I really proceed.. is it really fog or reality on her side that is sick and tired of MM..and is fiinished with him..she is still in the house and wants to jkeep the card and letters Ihave been giving her because it reminds her of the good times..what up with that.. are we back to PB..