Hi unsure…

Good to see you back. I hope you are doing OK.

Your words about your father paint him as a very selfless and kind man. It’s evident he made a very positive and life-long impact on you and I am sure he would be pleased and proud to hear your words about him.

He will always be in your heart.

I am sorry it has come to where it has with your WH. You know best how you feel and what is workable. I feel some days like I am getting there myself.

My WW told me last week that what she wants most is for everything to be the way it used to be…but she doesn’t think she has the heart to do what needs to be done to get there. WTF? How can you want something more than anything, and in many ways it is there for the taking with a little work, yet you say you don’t have the “heart?” I don’t understand it and don’t think I ever will.

USH said: As a result, he cannot forgive himself and thinks it will be easier to start a new life.

Some days I think that’s where my WW is, too.

But you know she and I had this amazing connection…that I don’t think either of us will be able to find with someone else. Maybe I am wrong, but I know my first wife and I did not share that same connection and I have never connected the same way with anyone else… My WW acknowledged that, too and says she “about 100 times a day how I could just say a single word and you would know what I am thinking.”

Why do you suppose someone would just want to throw that away and try to start new? I really, really don’t get it.

I am glad to see you posting again, and I think you have a lot to offer to the Just Found Outs and to all of us.

Take care unsure

E

Elad -- I read your words about your WW and they could be straight out of my WH's mouth. I have to ask -- what do you think it will take for your WW to make a decision?

I am beginning to see this lack of decision in my WH as a manipulation tactic. I used to think it was really just him not knowing what he wanted. At some point, though, you do have to acknowledge that they do know they are stringing you along/keeping you in the wings/keeping you as a safety net. Obviously, I do not know your WW, but it does sound as if she is doing the same thing.

But, I also know that that connection you described makes it incredibly difficult to sever the ties. I haven't been able to do it completely. I have cut off contact, but have not yet had the courage to file for the D myself. I do have to ask myself honestly if I think anything is going to change with WH. His recommitment to our marriage would take a) self examination, b) overcoming guilt, c) acknowledging his contributions to the demise of our M, d) likely a change in jobs and e) admitting failure. I would never describe it that way to him now, but I know these are the things that scare him and prevent him from moving forward in any direction.

Even if he did decide to work on these things, it could take years and there is no guarantee he would see it through. That scares me. I don't want to wait two more years in some kind of limbo.

I know I sound down today, but I think the reality of all of this has come into sharp focus for me.

Hi unsure…

I hope all is well with you. I have thought about your post a little and I don’t think in my case it is manipulation by my WW so much as it is indecision. I think she honestly is scared to make the move andi do think it is because of the “connection” we have had for so long.

USH said: what do you think it will take for your WW to make a decision?

I am not certain but I think it could be coming soon…even as soon as this week. I kinda think that because I pretty much pushed the issue a little this past weekend. I just told her Saturday that this is just getting too hard for me and we have to do something. The choices are work on us or file…I mean basically, that’s it.

She said she was scared…and said “I can’t even comprehend being divorced from you.” Well if that’s the case then why are we doing what we are doing? It makes no sense.

Anyway that was Saturday night and I have not heard from her since then. So I guess it wouldn’t surprise me if she has decided to make a move and file.

I am just so worn down by all of this…

USH said: Even if he did decide to work on these things, it could take years and there is no guarantee he would see it through. That scares me.

I have had these same thoughts and yeah, it is scary…I guess if there were some sort of miracle change in my WW’s heart and she wanted to commit, I would have to figure out in my mind if the desire was there and if I still had it in me to do the work and spend the time (yes, years) to take the chance to try to make it work. I think I would but it is very scary that all of that could happen and still nothing be accomplished.

It is hard for all of us not to have down days USH, so I hope the sharp focus you found has you feeling a bit better today.

Take care,

E

Hello Elad -- Checking in to see how you are.

I am trying very hard to stick my guns in my much more austere plan B (for me). WH keeps emailing me and wants to stop by tonight to talk. I let him know unequivocally if he was still seeing OW and taking a trip with her, I did not want to see or speak to him.

It's hard because I know he would be of great comfort on my feelings surrounding my father, but I also know that it would tear me apart to see him under the current circumstances.

I have spoken to an attorney and know what I need to do. I will take the next few weeks to get together what I need to file and then proceed.

I fell off my mountain bike over the weekend and strained a muscle in my back. Looking forward to going to stretch tonight and nothing strenuous beyond hoisting that chardonnay glass to my lips.

I hope you are well and that things are moving (which direction?) for you and your WW.

Hi USH,
I think you are doing the right thing telling him you dont wish to see him as long as he is seeing OW. Even if his intent is noble, he's gotta decide at some point, one way or another.
What are your plans for the future, i.e. did you set yourself a time limit for plan B when you will move on? Or if/when you start legal procedures?
Take care,
Nick

Elad, Nick, Seahorse, all....

WH left this morning on a trip with OW. I received this email.

Quote:
It's very late, or early (almost 4:00 am), and I've been sitting here for hours wondering what I'm doing and why. I've tried so hard to explain in a letter to you what I'm feeling and why. But it's all so muddled, so confused.

I'm left with nothing other than this thought: that I know I have a great deal of love for you, that I care for you and about you very much, but that I also know that I cannot find the peace and equilibrium of spirit to commit to you as your husband. I will not give up trying to present the reasons for this, and I will try to do so in a letter that I will deliver shortly.

In the meantime, I do intend to go on this trip. I don't do this to hurt you; I do it to give myself a chance to survive, or at least breath a little easier for a little while. It may turn out as you suggest; that I'm using a trip to avoid what I should be doing to be truly happy. But I feel like its a choice of either taking this trip or continuing to whither in my present state.

It's now about 6:00 am. I fell asleep for a couple hours. Please believe me when I say that there is a large part of me that wishes the clock could be turned back, that all this could just go away. I struggle for the self-forgiveness that you spoke of so eloquently in your last letter. I read your words, I feel like I understand your ideas, but I feel nothing inside that resembles acceptance or forgiveness.

I cannot in good conscience proceed with this trip without initiating the divorce proceeding, though it is the hardest and saddest thing I've ever done. I do not want to do it, and have struggled with it for months. But I also have not found the place in my soul that allows me to come back. If nothing else, I need to let you move forward in your life, even if I continue to wallow in mine. I have prepared a co-petition to the court, which needs both our notarized signatures. I will get my signature notarized today, and then send this to you for you to sign and get notarized. I'll include a stamped envelope addressed to the XX County Court, along with a check. When you send it in, this starts a process that spans three months and that we can complete when I return July 28. By separate mail, I will send you a check in the amount of $XX for July mortgage.

My flight is in 2.5 hours, so I must go. I am very sad, very sad. And I'm sorry I can't figure this out. Please take good care of your self. I'll be checking e-mail periodically, so if you need to reach me you can do so that way. If there's something more pressing, Mom and Dad have my itinerary. Good-bye Mrs. Sweetie. I love you.

End Quote

This has made me unspeakably sad and I frankly don't know what to do. I did email him back and tell him that I would respond via an attorney because I did not want to interact with him in person upon his return. This has gone on so long I guess I should resign myself to the fact that I will soon be divorced -- it just doesn't make any sense though since we both still have love for eachother.

I am at a total loss.

Sorry to hear that. Two observations:

1)

<strong> I do it to give myself a chance to survive, or at least breath a little easier for a little while. </strong>

That's exactly what an addict would say, before he shoots another dose of heroine into his veins

2)

I can understand his first point of going with OW (addiction), but I cant really follow his reasoning which lead him to iniate a divorce.
Maybe his line of

<strong>
I feel nothing inside that resembles acceptance or forgiveness
</strong>

is the key? I think he just feels so bad about his (ongoing) behaviour and what it does to you, I think he feels so bad about it himself that he can't forgive himself that divorce is the only appealing exit for him?

I dont know what to tell you. On the one hand I'd say - accept it, grieve about it, try to move on. On the other hand I'd say, you should tell WH that it's NOT too late, that there IS an alternative to divorce which will make him find peace etc.... but not sure if his radio is still on 'receive' on that frequency.

^ Bump

USH, you're OK?

Hi unsure&#8230;

I am so sorry for where you find yourself right now but I totally understand and empathize with you.

Much of the letter your H wrote could have been written by my WW.

Please believe me when I say that there is a large part of me that wishes the clock could be turned back, that all this could just go away.

She has said exactly that many times&#8230;most recently when we last spoke directly about our situation a few weeks ago.

I am not sure if she struggles with the same self-forgiveness issues but it seems odd to me that if they truly mean what they say in that statement that they don&#8217;t make any effort to back up their words.

I know that you have struggled with the thought of divorce as much as I have and I know how difficult this is. I wish I had some magic words that could take the sting out of what your H wrote and what he has done, but I just don&#8217;t. Because your situation and mine are so similar and the timeframes are close I can say I feel very sad for you today.

USH said: I am at a total loss.

I understand this feeling and have been there myself. It is a very empty feeling when you know you have done all you could and things still have not gone as you wished. It certainly leaves us wondering what more could be done or said that would, in effect, turn the tide. But perhaps there really is nothing. Still it is very sad.

USH said: This has gone on so long I guess I should resign myself to the fact that I will soon be divorced -- it just doesn't make any sense though since we both still have love for each other.
I have trouble making any sense out of this either&#8230;perhaps it doesn&#8217;t do any good to try to make sense of things and only needs acceptance, but under the circumstances of two people still loving each other that is very, very difficult.

I feel like I am getting to the point you are where my WW will likely file. We spoke last Friday very briefly and she talked about getting the remainder of her belongings from our house and looking at filing. Yet in the same conversation she says how much she misses talking to me and how she longs to hear my voice and how sad she is about all this and yet&#8230;and yet&#8230;well, I guess you know the rest.

I am sorry I have so little to offer besides my thoughts but considered yourself hugged and you have my hope that you are all right.

I truly believe you have done all you could to avoid a divorce...I share your sadness that this has not worked out...

But--as Yogi Berra so aptly put it "It ain't over 'til it's over."

You are strong USH&#8230;you will survive this and become stronger&#8230;I know it may not feel that way now but you (we) have to believe it.

You are in my thoughts.

Take care

E

<small>[ July 02, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Elad ]</small>

Hi unsure...

Just checking in to see how you are doing.

I hope you are OK...

Give us an update on how you are when you can.

In the meantimeI have heard from my WW.

She told me yesterday that she wants to get away with me me and talk before anything else happens.

She said we "need to discuss whether this marriage can be salvaged and I don't want to file for divorce before we have that talk."

I am not sure what-all we have to talk about that we haven't talked about already but, OK, we can talk.

I did ask her to be honest and if this is a session to make me see that there is no way to save this then it's waste of time and she should just go ahead and file. She said no, there are some issues she has that she hasn't talked about...and that she really wants to talk and see if this can be salvaged...

Who knows...we have been here before so I don't have any real expectations but I did agree to go out of town with her Saturday and have whatever discussion she wants to have....

I hope you are OK, unsure...

I know how bad this latest kick in the gut must be to deal with and I am sorry...

Just wanted to let you know I am thinking about you...

Take care

E

Hey USH

Sorry your going through so much right now as I am as well. I'm pretty bummed out so I'll just give you a (((((((((((USH))))))))))). These help out very little but feels go to recieve. Don't you think. Thinking of you and hoping that you are doing ok.

Depressed

Nick - Thank you for checking up on me and giving me your thoughts. I need to catch up with where you are in your plan B. I went away for a few days to think. I do think it's that he cannot forgive himself as you've said. I received a second letter from him that makes even less sense (see below).

Elad - Thanks. I am ever more confused after this second letter. I don't think he can get to where I need him to be, but it's still sad to end this marriage. As you say (and I've said to Nick I think) "it ain't over 'til it's over", but it does seem further along the path to over right now.

Depressed1234 - Thank you so much for checking on my thread. I have to say I've been pretty selfish and consumed with my own situation that I haven't checked to see what it happening with you and your H and your little boy -- I hope not as bleak as what I'm experiencing right now.

The SECOND letter:

Dear Unsureheart: By now, you've read the email I sent this morning. I am sure you have no interest in my point of view, since you are probably very angry and hurt. I can't say that I have any tonic for this since I remain as confused as ever. Perhaps you are just relieved. I don't know. I have no sense of relief, just more of the same...feeling horrible about everything and feeling strangely powerless to adjust my point of view.

I have been struglling with all this for weeks now, not knowing whether my actions will lead to anything that is productive or hopeful for either you or me, wondering if I will ever feeel at peace with anything I do or say ever again. I promise you that initiation of divorce proceedings is the last thing I want to do. I'm only doing it because no other path seems available.

You may think that my actions are initiated by my relationship with OW. This is truly not the case. I've told you on many occassions that I'm not sure that I can be happy with her since I'm not sure I can be happy with myself. I know that the risks of unhappiness with OW are lower simply because the emotional entanglement that I feel with her is far less pronounced. I'm scared of what it looks like to re-engage with you because I don't thik I could handle something that didn't work and I know I could not exist in the vortex that defines my emotional connection to you. In other words, I can't take the risk of our relationship not working out in the future even if I were able to recommit to it. Who knows, maybe this will change in time. But I ahve been searching for the genuine and real feeling that I have the strength and sense of commitment to make it work andI have not yet found it in these last several months.

The time is past for dishonesty from me. You need to know that the decision on myt part to initiate the divorce proceedings and go on this trip are reflections of my complete inability to do anything else. I wish it were otherwise. I feel a great sense of desperation to break out of a casing that seems to be growing harder and harder.

I just need you to konw that in spite of it all, I know you have the loveliest of souls, are generous to a fault in so many ways, rich in humor and intellect, beautiful, talented, and special. If I can do only one thing that is right at this point in time, I think it is to release you so that you can explore your ability to love and connect with others to the fullest capacity of your being.

I miss you unsureheart. I love you. I have to let you move on though. You are always in my heart.

End of letter.

AAAHH. This is driving me crazy. Here he is in another country for almost a month with another woman and I get this.

I also received an initial petition to dissolve the marriage with a note saying "if you want to sign it and return it to the court" please do so.

I am of two minds.

<small>[ July 09, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: unsureheart ]</small>

Hi unsure&#8230;

Good to see you back, although it looks like little has been resolved for you and life is still confusing. I hope your time away to think was helpful for USH. After reading your H&#8217;s letter I can sure understand your confusion.

As I read his letter some of the phrases make me wonder if he and my WW were separated at birth.

He said: I promise you that initiation of divorce proceedings is the last thing I want to do. I'm only doing it because no other path seems available.

This weekend my WW said: If I file for divorce it&#8217;s not because I am sure it&#8217;s what I want. It&#8217;s because I don&#8217;t see any other option and we can&#8217;t keep living like this.

He said: But I have been searching for the genuine and real feeling that I have the strength and sense of commitment to make it work and have not yet found it&#8230;

My WW said: I don&#8217;t think I have the strength or the heart to do the work needed to make this work.

I could go on but you get the idea. Maybe this is fairly common but it just seems eerie at times.

Let me make a couple of observations from your WH&#8217;s letter.

1. I think he still cares a tremendous amount about USH&#8230;but and this is a big BUT...he cannot and will not get anywhere with those feelings as long as he has involvement with the OW. Whether he sees that or not (and I think he seems smart enough to see that) it just seems that he will never make any progress as along as he has the conflict inside him between USH and OW.

2. He HAS the ability to &#8220;break out of the casing&#8221; but lacks the will. The ability is always there but if you don&#8217;t WANT to then nothing will be accomplished. Once the will is there the commitment follows and the ability will also.

3. He said: I miss you unsureheart. I love you. I have to let you move on though. You are always in my heart. To this I say BAH&#8230;this is a copout and if he truly felt this way he would find a way to make it work. Maybe I am wrong here but it is the same feeling I have about my WW who mouths similar babble.

I understand you being of &#8220;two minds&#8221; and wish I had some insight that could help but I think you are doing OK on your own&#8230;and only you can know your own heart&#8230;it won&#8217;t be &#8220;unsure&#8221; forever.

Although I only know USH from our posts here I am sure his description of you is accurate but he left out one item&#8230;that is your strength. I know how hard this is and admire your ability to continue through everything you have over the past few months.

Stay strong USH&#8230;.and take care

E

Elad - I am also beginning to believe that my WH and your WW are twins that were separated at birth. How did you leave your conversation with her? Will you talk again?

I sent an email back to WH this a.m. telling him that I still had love for him too, but that I needed him not to be in touch with me by email or any other form of communication because his actions in going to another country with another woman were unfathomable to me. I honestly don't know if I'm going to sign the petition to dissolve the marriage, but I don't have to make a decision today.

Do you live anywhere near the Huron Mountain Club or near Big Bay in the upper Peninsula in Michigan? I have been invited by a close female friend that has a family place there to come up the weekend of August 8-10.

Hi unsure...

I told my wife I still don't want a divorce and that despite it all I think we could fix things and I think it would be worth it...not just for me but for both of us...but that I can't fix it on my own.

She said she didn't think she had the strength or heart to do it and had a bunch of other questions that I have answered a hundred times...which I answered again. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Basically I told her that I still wanted us but she had to do what she had to do.

I leave any contact up to her so I don't know if I will be talking to her anytime soon, if she is planning to file I would hope she would at least give me a heads up on that but that's up to her, too.

The Huron Mountain Club, huh? Well, well, well don't we travel in good company? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Actually when you originally described this I figured it was one of the two clubs like that around here. It's pretty exclusive and only the well-heeled and wealthy have places there. In other words, not me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Yeah, I am not far from there...on a good day from my house about half an hour or 45 minutes...

If you decide to take your friend up on her offer and would like to actually meet and talk in person I would enjoy that.

That Saturday morning (8/9) is Michigan's largest mass start, point-to-point Mtn. Bike race. The race is here and I am riding in the 25-mile event. Check it out: Bike Race

Other than that I am free the remainder of the weekend.

Take care

E

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Elad ]</small>

Elad -

The bike race looks like a lot of fun and through some pretty spectacular scenery. I don't think I will be bringing my bike up for the weekend and my friend that has the family place is not really into biking, but she is spontaneous and a lot of fun so you never know what I'll be able to talk her into that weekend.

I guessed that this place was something fancier than my experience with "camps" and "cabins". You would never know from casually meeting my friend that she was, as you say, well-heeled, but I've put a few things together based on things she has told me about her family history. I was chuckling to myself when she made comments about the "cabin". The number of people staying there and the apparent lack of concern over one or two extra guests indicated to me that it was more sizable than my view of a "cabin".

Do you live in Marquette? It would be great to find a way to actually meet in person. I have no sense of the geography/terrain in the upper peninsula. I would imagine that it would be ok to meet up at the Huron Mountain Club if you would be interested in that/take a hike or something along those lines. I'd offer to meet you somewhere, but will not have a car. We are flying in and out of Marquette -- my friend is coming up for ten days, but I plan to fly in late Thursday night the 7th and out early a.m. on Monday the 11th.

The one I'd really like to meet is your WW so that I could see if she really was my WH's twin <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Mostly, I think I'd like to meet her and tell her she must be out of her mind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> to give up a guy that mountain bikes, is willing to go shopping at Victoria's Secret, and has a sense of humor.

Hi unsure...

If you could convince my WW of anything I would be amazed <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The Huron Mountain Club is fairly exclusive...built by Henry Ford (yes, that Henry Ford) for he and his friends (such as Thomas Edison) years ago.

I don't live in Mqt. but nearby. I am sure if you are interested we could work out a visit while you are that close. I do happen to have a car. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Would it be possible to carry on this conversation by e-mail?

I am willing to share mine but don't want to leave it posted here for obvious reasons for very long but I would post it while we are both on line.

Let me know.

E

<small>[ July 10, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: unsureheart ]</small>

unsure...

You should have an e-mail from me.

I hope...

E

More likely than not I wont be telling you anything you dont know already, but here I go anyway: your WH's second letter is weird beyond comprehension and doesnt stack up in terms of coherence and logic. His "complete inability to do anything else"? His "I know I could not exist in the vortex that defines my emotional connection to you"?? Seriously weird.
My take on it is that he is on the run from himself because deep down, there's something in him which he is scared of and which he doesn't like. So he runs to OW. But you know what? His problems will be following him. Your only consolation in this should be that, yes, one day I'm pretty sure, he'll see it for real and sees what he has done to you. By then, however, I hope you moved on to another emotional state, ideally with a great partner who values not only your qualities, but is honest and doesnt betray you.

Nick

PS - thanks for enquiring who I am doing. I got a farily difficult couple of days behind and ahead of me, will post an update middle of next week when the dust settled.