It happened today.

My WW finally talked to me about R.

Today marked 1 month since I saw her last. After work, I got dressed and ready for the gym and she called out of the blue. She complained about work, people bugging her, etc. Then she said she called around and priced car insurance for her own policy. "That way, you won't have to keep paying for me".

I hate it when she says things like that. It tears me apart every time she takes a step to further the separation. So I asked her out right. "When are we going to actually talk about our relationship? I still have no clue what you're thinking, feeling, planning, or wanting".. So she said "What are you doing this evening?"

30 minutes later, she was walking through the front door of the apartment.

*don't LB, don't LB, don't LB* was my chant to myself.

She came in, I complemented her on how beautiful she looks (again, I've not seen her for a month, so she's a sight for sore eyes). Then we sat on the couch and just kinda looked at eachother for a minute or two.. Then I asked "So what's going on?" She said " I don't know".. I said "Out of everyone involved in this marriage, you're the only one that has any clue what's going on. I've been waiting to hear from you what you want. Do you want a separation? Keep it like it is? Divorce?"

She then told me that yes, she wants a divorce. "I Can't try again" is all she would say when I asked why. I told her that if a divorce is what she wants, she'll have to do it by herself. I still believe the marrige has a chance and won't willfully help her end it. She seemed upset that I wasn't going to make divorce easy on her.

We then made some small talk.. I told her about joining the church choir and being rededicated at church a few weeks ago. She smiled really big and said she was proud of me. Then she commented that she could really tell I've been spending time at the gym. Asked what kind of diet I was on, said I was looking really nice.

I then got in some of my plan A work by reminding her of the good times. All she can remember is the past 6 months of unhappiness and arguing. She forgets the past 6 years of romance, fun and excitement. So I brought up all the best days.. Prom.. Wedding.. First Kiss.. Favorite Make-out spots.. I had her smiling, laughing, and crying as I brought up all the happy times of the past.

Then I told her I knew we could have all that happiness back again if she would give it a try. Again, "I Can't Try Again" was her answer. She said it hurt too much and she couldn't go through that again. The topic went wildly back and forth between things, so forgive me if I sound disordered.

She asked what I want. So, I said.
"I want to be the nervous dad, rushing to get you to the hospital on the day of our daughter's birth.

I want to hold you hand as we send her to the schoolbus for her first day of kindergarden.

I want to still hold your hand at her highschool graduation.

I want to sit next to you and cry the day I give her away at her wedding.

And I want to hold you close as we look through the window at our new born grandchild.

I want to grow old with you.. I want to share the rest of my life with you.

Every dream or thought I've ever had about the future, from the time we began dating, had your face. We've had a excelent 6 years of happyness. I want another 50 years of it."

Somewhere in there, she started crying. I continued to bring up the good times, reminding her that it wasn't all dark and gray.

One excelent point, I narrowed it down to the very MOMENT she fell in love with me. It was the first day we met. I was collecting phone numbers for all the people in the school band, putting together a calling list. So I walked up to her and directly asked for her name and phone number. She gave it, somewhat apprehensively asking what it was for.. I told her for the calling list, she said okay, and in my flirtatious nature, I dropped to one knee, took her hand and kissed it gently, then said "Thank you for your help, fair lady".

THAT is the moment she fell for me. I completly swept her off her feet in that instant, and I told her that tonite. I hit the nail right on the head. She smilled and kept giggling.

We talked about several other good times, never LB'ing eachother. The whole conversation stayed positive, no arguing, no raised voices.. Just the occasional bout of tears.

I took her hand and put it on my chest, and said "The Day we got married, I promised this to you. It's still yours. Every fiber of my being still says I love you, no matter what you've done or are still doing. I'm still here and still strong, and I want to be with you still." She then said she didn't think I would ever be able to forgive her. I told her that while she's still seeing OM, then no, I couldn't begin to. But if she cut all contact with OM, quit her job, promised no phone calls/email/meetings with OM, that I really believe that I could forgive her in time. She said she can't do that, she loves him.

Then she said she wanted the divorce still. Finally, we came to an agreement that I would help her split the finances completly (what she wants) by signing her off of my insurance, cell phone account, and medical insurance, letting her get those all in her own policy. Also, both of our cars are in both of our names.. She wants to get those split to our individual names.

If I would do this, she would agree to not push for the divorce to give things some more time to settle. I told her I thought we should talk more, like this, openly and honestly. I thought it was doing so much good. In response, she picked up my shopping list and wrote a phone number. She said it was the new phone number OM was having turned on at the Apartment as of tomorrow. He would see on caller ID and not answer, but she will. She just asked that I not try and talk like this everytime I call, cause she doesn't think she has the energy to stand it very often.

She also said she wanted to come back and get a few more of her things.. her light-house nick-nacks (she loves her light houses).. also a dresser from our bedroom her mom gave us when we got married (aparantly she doesn't have much drawer space at OM's apt.).. She got a copy of her resume on disk and took it with her.

I told her "For now, I'm still here. I'm amazed at how strong I've been.. Never did I think I would have the strength to sit back and love you even while you're sleeping with another man. But I do. And I want to make our marriage work. I have changed a lot in the month since you saw me last. I've been reading, talking to God and friends, studying relationships, marriages, affairs. I feel better equipped than ever to work at building a relationship. And I know that 5 years from now, I will be happy. What I want is to be happy with you. But, if that doesn't work, I know I'll have to move on. If I move on, I will be still happy in 5 years. Either way, I'm going to find happiness, with or with out you. I just hope it's with you."

I told her that I had been thinking about joining the Air Force the past few days, as a last resort to 'get away from things'.. She said she would worry about me if I did that, and hopes that I don't.

I asked her if she loves OM, and she said yes. I asked how it started, and she said on the day I went to my conference in Washington DC, she wrote her number on a piece of paper and gave it to OM at work.. He called her that night and it took off from there. The first night she moved there, she said she slept on the couch. I asked if she was still sleeping on the couch, and she said no. She said "He Makes Me laugh, which is something I havn't had in 6 months"..

I don't deny that the last 6 months were bad for both of us. We both made some huge mistakes, amplifying the problems and making eachother miserable. But "I Can't Try Again" is her only answer when I say I think we can fix it and make eachother happy again. Again, she just keeps remembering the last 6 months and not the last 6 years.

For about a half hour of this talking, I reached over and held her hand. She never pulled away. Before she left, I tried to hug her and she started to pull away.. then, she was hugging back just as hard as I was. It felt soo good to feel her in my arms again.. She began crying..

We hugged 3 or 4 more times before she finally left. I also kissed her on the cheek. For me, who's main EN's are affection and sexual fullfilment, this felt like a cold rain on a hot desert sand. I soaked up every touch I could have with her.

Then, just as she was leaving, she said "You should ask <mutual friend> out".. Her name is the same as my WW, so I said "Ok.. will you go out with me?" She laughed and said "Nooo the other one".. I said "I don't think her fiance would appreciate that", so she said "Oh! I didn't know she's getting married".. I think she just wants to feel less guilty by knowing I'm out violating our wedding vows too. But I refuse as long as we're married.

So that's where I'm left... I feel bad because she's now saying she wants divorce.

But I REALLY feel like I made an impact. Even the most cold hearted person in the world would have to melt a little at the things I told her tonite. All those memories of our past together HAVE to have some effect... I'm certain something has to sink in, and really feel like I've given her things to think about.

So, part of me feels crushed she wants a divorce. Part of me feels so happy that I got to see/talk to her, and that I was able to deliver such powerful EN's, even making her smile and laugh with me about the old times.

The fog is still heavy.
She "Can't Try Again"..
I feel closer now to loosing my wife than ever.
But I feel like I've honestly given it everything I can, without regrets.

I feel proud of the person I'm becoming. And proud of the way I've been handling things.

Now if my WW would just come home, I could add Happiness to that list.

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 12:17 AM: Message edited by: JohnnyB ]</small>

But Johnny, you are still standing. I read your post and see your inner strength. You have more in you than you realize and you are going to need to pull on that inner strength for the next few weeks.

Gather your support group around you and let them know you are going to need them now more than ever.

Once your W takes her share of the bills, a piece of reality will hit. Letting the OM meet all her needs will be an eye opener no matter how much she thinks it will be ok.

And when she laughs now, she will know she told you that and it may make her sad. You will be able to get her and the OM to love bust each other without lifting a finger.

JMHO,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She asked what I want. So, I said.
"I want to be the nervous dad, rushing to get you to the hospital on the day of our daughter's birth.

I want to hold you hand as we send her to the schoolbus for her first day of kindergarden.

I want to still hold your hand at her highschool graduation.

I want to sit next to you and cry the day I give her away at her wedding.

And I want to hold you close as we look through the window at our new born grandchild.

I want to grow old with you.. I want to share the rest of my life with you.

Every dream or thought I've ever had about the future, from the time we began dating, had your face. We've had a excelent 6 years of happyness. I want another 50 years of it."

Somewhere in there, she started crying. I continued to bring up the good times, reminding her that it wasn't all dark and gray.

One excelent point, I narrowed it down to the very MOMENT she fell in love with me. It was the first day we met. I was collecting phone numbers for all the people in the school band, putting together a calling list. So I walked up to her and directly asked for her name and phone number. She gave it, somewhat apprehensively asking what it was for.. I told her for the calling list, she said okay, and in my flirtatious nature, I dropped to one knee, took her hand and kissed it gently, then said "Thank you for your help, fair lady".

THAT is the moment she fell for me. I completly swept her off her feet in that instant, and I told her that tonite. I hit the nail right on the head. She smilled and kept giggling.

We talked about several other good times, never LB'ing eachother. The whole conversation stayed positive, no arguing, no raised voices.. Just the occasional bout of tears.

I took her hand and put it on my chest, and said "The Day we got married, I promised this to you. It's still yours. Every fiber of my being still says I love you, no matter what you've done or are still doing. I'm still here and still strong, and I want to be with you still." She then said she didn't think I would ever be able to forgive her. I told her that while she's still seeing OM, then no, I couldn't begin to. But if she cut all contact with OM, quit her job, promised no phone calls/email/meetings with OM, that I really believe that I could forgive her in time. She said she can't do that, she loves him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my, you've got me absolutely bawling here. This is the definition of a perfect plan A. Way to go. That list of dreams you had about having children and growing old together is all that I'm grieving for tonight.

I agree with Orchid, I still see real inner strength in you. I also see that your W is still moved by your words. Her hugs indicate that she still cares about you, but she is deep in the fog of OM unfortunately. I really hope the reality of her and OM being together comes crashing in and that she returns to you.

Jen

<small>[ March 18, 2003, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Thanks for the quick replies Orchid and Jen.

I definatly feel stronger than I ever had.

I also had a sad realization this evening when discussing the day with a friend. I've always said that the reason I fight so hard is because I know, 5 years down the road, if I can't look back and honestly say "I did everything I could to make this marriage work", I'd be unable to look at myself in the mirror.

Tonight, I feel like I've truly given it all I have. Now it's up to her, how it affects her, and how she reacts to it. If things continue to divorce, I know now that there is nothing I could have done to stop it.. I can't make her stop loving OM.. I can't make her want to be with me again.. I can't make her try..

Although tonight she did make one statement, when I asked her directly if she still loves me, she replied "Yes, I still love you very much.. That's why this hurts so much"..

She does love me.
She hurts to bad to try again.
She's in the fog of OM.

Will tonight's talk help erase those last 2 items? I'm praying.. i'm praying..

She still loves you. Oh my. What a bittersweet piece of information.

She says it hurts too much to try again. Is that fog-ese for "I'd like to try again, but I can't handle any more pain right now"?

JB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She says it hurts too much to try again. Is that fog-ese for "I'd like to try again, but I can't handle any more pain right now"?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm hoping so JenB. Thats why I'm trying to stall her divorce talk, hoping that with a lil time, that pain will ease and the fog will clear some.. Then, maybe, by the grace of God, she may realize what we had and decide it's worth another try after all.

This is the only hope I have left, so I'm praying about it non-stop now.

It was a long, semi-sleepless night.

Hoping to hear some good responses this morning. Please, any and all input appreciated.

JohnnyB, Stay strong. You're doing the right things. Everyday I try to keep strength, stay calm, not do any LBs. You were perfect!! I wish I had your eloquence when I talk to my WH. I'm always afraid to start, I'll say the wrong thing, say too much, say to little.

My new motto: Step, Step, Breathe....Step, Step, Breathe. (In other words, keep living as much as you can)

I don't know if it worth clarifying the point with her, but "I can't try again" is really "I can try again. I don't want to try again". It sort of changes things from something she has no control over to something that she could control. People tend to hate to face that, but it can be a seed that eventually germinates.

Another seed to plant may be to see if she'll explicitly acknowledge that she would work on the marriage if it weren't for her A. The more she thinks the marriage is capable of saving, better for you.

Finally, another seed to plant may be to help demystify the A for her. I haven't seen you talk about her ENs anywhere, so understanding which ENs OM meets for her (without explicitly talking about the EN concept) may also be useful from an intelligence POV.

The other thing is that it may benefit you to have a talk with OM with her understanding that you just want to "hear his side of the story". However, OM would see that there is a H who loves his W at the other end. But that could be tough to go through. I think some people say the OP doesn't matter, but you may get some useful info out of it and make an impression on OM. And it makes it easier to arrange for him to run into a group of bat-weilding hoodlums on the way home.

Anyway, sounds like a good talk (considering the circumstances). Good luck.

Last night, I did ask her the ever looming question of "Why".

The only thing she could say is "He makes me laugh.. I hadn't had that in 5 months".

She felt betrayed by the big baby fight we had in september, and things have been rough ever since. Now, she's getting comfort from someone else, who didn't 'hurt' her like I have.

Thinking about this last night, I'm getting the feeling that the only reason she's willing to wait and hold off on divorce talk is because she's hoping I'll get more 'comfortable' with it.

So I think she's just giving me time to come around to her way of thinking. Of course, I'm asking for the time to see if she can come out of the fog and see things clearly.

If she does proceed with the divorce, she wants me to sign on a no-fault divorce with her. Neither of us can really afford to go through the whole lawyer/court process. I think that's why she was upset when I said I wouldn't go along with a divorce, thinking that means she'll have to get a lawyer.

JohnnyB:

Over all, that was an excellent evening!

"The fog is still heavy."

Yes, but no worse than any other situation like this.

"She "Can't Try Again".."

I agree with est, this means she just doesn't want to try. Or she THINKS she doesn't want to try. Truth is, there's no alternative to "trying." So, eventually, she'll "try".

"I feel closer now to loosing my wife than ever."

It's important to note that you may FEEL this way right now, but really you're closer to getting her BACK than you have been since she left you. You planted some very postitive seeds for thought in her, and they're going to grow. Just give it time, keep meetings like that happening, but do your best to keep the pressure off when you do. If she's starting to get too uncomfortable, back off a bit.

"But I feel like I've honestly given it everything I can, without regrets."

Good for you! Now, make a conscious effort to avoid talking about DV with her. If you don't want one, don't bring it up, and if she brings it up, reiterate it's not what you want and change the subject. Don't help her get a DV.

An as for the OM "making her laugh." Well, he makes ME laugh, too! Not much of a man to be so willing to have an A with a married woman.

Take care, you're doing a good job,
-Qfwfq

Johnny you are awesome...the things you said to her were perfect!

I am sorry to say I don't know your whole story (I mostly hang out in the In Recovery board) but is there anyone else in either of your families or mutual friends who are rooting for the two of you to get back together? Can or have they been enlisted to help reach her?

Do you know the OM? If not anyone else you know, know him? Would be interesting to know what she sees in him that's different or the same as in you.

Best Wishes!!

EVERYONE is for us getting back together except for her.

I talk to her parents almost nightly.

The only thing is, she's cut contact with everyone except OM and people at her work.

Unfortunatly, I don't know OM directly, or anyone who knows him. I have met him before.. He's the salesman that we bought my WW's new car off of in Nov 02.

All I know about him is he's 14 years older than her, used to be in the army, a Car Salesman, Balding, not-so-handsome, and lives in a rat-hole apartment with my WW. They just got a phone turned on there yesterday (i suspect my WW's doing).. But she gave me the number, so I presume it's allrite for me to call.

I've given some thought to calling OM and talking with him directly. I just want him to know there's a hurting husband on the other end of this deal. I want him to see that I still love my WW very much and am not going to just 'go away'.

I'm here, I'm strong, and I'm not giving up.

Yesterday after work, I drove by her office and left a card on her windshield, saying "Thank you for talking to me last night. I really appreciated your honesty and having the chance to see you again". I also threw in some more "I love you's" and put the "You can't try means you can, just don't want to" idea into play (not in those exact words).

She called her mom last night.. More chit-chat. I was honestly believing she'd finally have a good heart-to-heart talk with her mom after the one we had.

Still wishing.
Still hoping.
Still praying.
Still living.
Still waiting on pins and needles for your input and responses.

Good job JohnnyB! I would agree with some of the other posters about your WW. She is in the fog right now and one of the things that is SO true is that you can't let yourself get emotional about ANYTHING she says. If you want to save your marriage you need to learn to plan A and be willing to stick it out for a while. Get into counseling if you can and haven't yet and learn how to do this. Your wife sounds confused to me and isn't sure about what she wants. It is possible to save your marriage if you really want it. I think the most important thing for you right now is to learn to control your emotions at all times when you are communicating with your wife and not to do anything to pressure her. That is what has been working the best for me and I noticed a definite change in my WW attitude when I was able to perfect this. Good Luck.

I am well into Plan A. The self betterment part, anyway. Chances to meet EN's are few and far between with the very limited contact I've been having with my WW.

When I told her we needed to talk more often, she wrote down 'their' phone number... Should I call her? So far, our contact had been limited to 1-2 phone calls per week where she either called me or I called her (@ work). Since she opened the door with giving me the number, should I walk through and call her some evening @ home? (this evening maybe?)

I love having contact again, but don't want to smother and push away.

That's a tough question for me. My WW also told me I could call the OM house but I have and will never do that. My WW does call everyday though so it's a little easier. If it doesn't bother you to call there I would say go ahead and try it. Your wife should tell you if she doesn't like it. I would never try to call more than once a day though. I know the WS feels much safer and it's easier to talk with the BS on the phone so why not?

JB,

I think you are doing a fantastic job. You are one strong dude!

No, I wouldn't call her at all - certainly not to be potentially put in the situation of her talking to you with OM in the room - or OM answering and saying "No, you can't talk to your W" - both probably bad for you.

Let her miss you. After your convo the other night, I know she will.

-AD

Exactly,

Do not call her...leave her to mull over what you just talked about. She will start to see the OM for the clown that he is. (Clowns do make people laugh...)

I feel like I relate to you. I'm a BH, 23, and my WW is also 23. She just moved out Sunday, and I'm moving forward, working on me. I've no intentions of starting anything with anyone else as long as I am married and no divorce has been filed. I tried and tried for months after finding out about the A, but it wasn't good enough. I believe that the A continued, but she denies this. Eventually, she will see OM for what he really is, a man without enough self-respect to seek a single woman, instead pursuing his friend's wife. That said, it may be tomorrow, two weeks from now, or years down the road before she sees this. However, it may be too late to save the marriage...

I hope that you continue to do well. At this point, I know the women here love the mushy stuff, but try to hold it back if you are starting to seem too weak. Don't over-pursue if you know what I mean. Do not let her see you as needy or weak. It will only push her further away.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hope that you continue to do well. At this point, I know the women here love the mushy stuff, but try to hold it back if you are starting to seem too weak. Don't over-pursue if you know what I mean. Do not let her see you as needy or weak. It will only push her further away. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The "mushy" stuff has always been one of my strongest qualities. I am a true and faithful romantic inside.

I havn't called, and don't think I'm going to for a while, at least. Waiting to see if/when she calls me again. That said, I feel hope slipping away... like a confirmation that it is over, and nothing I can do will change that. In fact, there's nothing else I can do, except wait. It's all up to her now.

I got a real 'tough love' session from one of my dear friends last night. The basics of it made a few things clear to me that I didn't see before. Both I and my WW knew we had problems.. I tried to get her to go to counseling (or to a Dr, because I felt she may be clinically depressed, and still do). Every suggestion or request was met with a prompt and usually shouting "NO!" She would never work with me on our problems, and I admit I handled her lack of interest in bad ways.. Guilt.. Anger.. Ultimatiums... Major LB's..

But her complete lack of interest in fixing things sort of shows a lack of interest in the relationship from her. Then, instead of facing our problems she runs to the arms of a co-worker. Breaking every trust I had in her, every vow we created together, and displaying a complete lack of respect for me as a person. Then stretching it out for more than a month before ever BEGINNING to talk to me about it.. It's like I just don't matter any more. She's being self-centered, selfish, and careless to everyone around her.

She's broken everything we've held dear together. Sexually, she was my first and is still my only. She had a few boyfriends before me that she shared that with, but to me it was special knowing she's my one and only lover. To think of her with another man........ It's made that bond feel worthless now.

I know.. This is probably ALL due to the fog.. But that doesn't make it hurt any less deeply. It's still her, doing these things. Even with everything said that evening, one of the last things she said was to restate "I still want a divorce. I can't try again. It's too late".. As stubborn as she is, I don't know if she'll ever change from that statement. She would rather die than admit that she's wrong, and to change her mind would be doing just that.

Maybe I'm just in a mood this morning. Hope seems to be draining from me. The tough love of my friend seems to make more and more sense. I don't want to give up hope, but I'm not sure I can hang on.

Found this today, and it really seems to fit the case. No author listed though.

Tears gather like pools in my eyes
then steadily slip down my cheeks
my heart hurts an unspeakable ache
leaving me beaten and weak

Unbearable to the point of giving up
i struggle just to survive
what is taking the hope out of me
im fighting to stay alive

I'm so tired of what I feel
emotions tear at my heart
useless feelings with no where to go
like darkness overshadowing the light

So I'm living in a gray sky morning
it seems like I'm here to stay
not moving ahead or falling behind
caught in the worst part of the day

Wasted from endless emotion
fading into the scenery
falling silent in the stillness
that haunts the life of me

How long can i remain unbroken
when will i reach the end
the passion is dying
the strength fading
the flame has weakened to a mere spark