Luki,

I don't think Harley is anti-divorce after a good Plan A and Plan B are implemented. The goal of those plans is to give you the peace of mind that you have done all you can to save your M, that you have let your spouse know that you have given the marriage a chance, that you have become stronger and able to move on with your life with OR without your spouse.

Luki, it sounds to me like you've done all these things. Divorce would not be a failure. You have succeeded. You have taken all you have learned here and become stronger and smarter for it. There's nothing to be ashamed of in feeling that way right now. Just make sure that, whatever decision you make, that you can do it with no regrets looking back.

I know that some people here will tell you to never give up, to never divorce, no matter what. But I feel that if you decide to pursue Dv, because you have given this process all you can, and that you feel you will not look back in regret, that you do what feels right for you right now.

ALS

Luki and Mortarman-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have this theory that it is this point that causes our spouses to finally feel the void of us leaving. They are actually feeling us pull away. As BSs, we know exactly how that feels. and since we dont know if we want the M anymore, we stop LBing. So, we are leaving a void and at the same time, giving them nothing to be angry about. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mortarman is right on with this. As a WS the difference for me was that there was no more demands. I wasn't being "hunted" and when X finally was ready to let go, I felt that we could finally be in a place to work on things without the emotions making the decisions. Remember, when I moved out, I was making a decsion that the R wasn't working. I was running, but I was also walking away from frustrartion. This was also an emotional reaction.

With all of the emotions finally in a stable,peaceful place, people get to think and feel in a rational manner. Mortarman this is why the last recovery attempt by your wife was genuine. She was FINALLY able to make a choice based in reality because she was no longer feeling FORCED to have to decide.....

Luki-

Interesting things are going to start to happen for you. Just stay where you are at emotionally. Keep doing exactly asd you are with you W. I also started the midnight calls, opening up, etc...

Keep working on you and collect the data. If recovery is going to happen, I firmly believe you will see the signs of change in the next two weeks.

Harley definatly isn't against divorce.

It was either HN/HN or SAA (can't remember which) But in the description of Plan B, there were 2 major ideas behind a plan B.

1. Let the WS see what life is like without you, creating some of that 'void' that can make them miss you in their lives. And, in doing so, you can preserv your LoveUnits in eachothers love bank.

2. With time, in Plan B you will eventually fall out of love, and one day realize that you can move on with your life without your WS. This was in the Plan A/B chapter somewhere. So what you're doing is exactly what Plan B intended.. Since the WS didn't come back, you fell gently out of love enough that you can see going on alone. That's a healthy thing.

Hey kily,

That reminds me, I'd be honored if you would take some time to check out my thread (it's down below, I posted to it earlier today), I'd love to hear your opinions/point of view on what's happening with me and my W lately.

ALS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just make sure that, whatever decision you make, that you can do it with no regrets looking back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was worried that if a chance at reconciliation should come around I might jump at it out of loneliness. I am over that hump and I think I am strong enough to walk away without looking back. Being on my own has been very good for me and has forced me to get my life together.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Interesting things are going to start to happen for you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe or maybe not, but I am prepared now for whatever.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If recovery is going to happen, I firmly believe you will see the signs of change in the next two weeks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I sense this as well. We are going to do taxes together after all. I think that is why WW has been acting “normal”. After taxes are done I expect a return to typical WS behavior. But you know what? I am off that train. Done.

This has been a good thread for me. Thanks to all for responding.

-Luki

Luki,

It's great to hear that you are doing so well. I can sense it in your words and your attitude.

Follow your heart and you are going to be just fine. Congratulations on your progress.

ALS

Luki-

One thought that came to me after I posted here was this one.

Considering where you are at in this moment, and considering what you've learned from other WS's on this board that are seriously remorseful, I pose this question for you to ponder.

If your WW was truly remorseful, and came to you two weeks after you decided NO MORE - would you turn your back on her, knowing that she could eventually be a KILY, Hopeful_Person, Lisa_IN_LONDON, or any number of other women that have posted their sincerist apologies and pain on this board?

I guess what I'm trying to get you to see is that moving on to something new doesn't SOLVE the issues. Working hard and hanging in there does. If she comes around and is willing, then you aren't you might miss out on something really special down the road.....

kily,

That thought is very much on my mind. I can only offer this:

It would not be fair for me to commit to a recovery if I didn't think that that I could get past the pain. I created that environment for the A in the first place and I would not want for that to happen again. It would not be fair to either of us. Yes, my WW may end up being truely remorseful and that is a good thing but she must do what I have done. Take that pain and use it to better herself. I don't believe that I might miss something special. My conscience would be clear in that fact that we both "found ourselves" so to speak and will be better people in the end, despite the end of our M. I can live with that 110%.

-Luki

Awesome Luki-

You are ready.

Luki & Kily,

As someone that was in Luki's shoes just over two months ago, and is now in reconciliation...let me let both of you in on a secret. I felt the same way Luki does. EXACTLY the same. I still have my moments of wondering if it is better to walk, if I can truly get over the pain.

When I decided in December to move on, I meant it. There has been no sleepless nights, no crying, etc since then. It was truly a time of peace. And, as you can feel from what I am saying...there is a "but" (there is always a but).

BUT...I never knew how I would feel when confronted with my true wife, a remorseful one ready to enter back into this marriage. I thought I could never take her back...never give her a fair shake. I even started talking to someone new, and was even close to starting in on my own EA, as I moved forward with the divorce, etc. As happy as I was getting, after a year of living under siege...I just could not imagine the circumstances that would stop me from moving forward and going back into that pain.

JustLearning told me one time "Well, don't go back into the pain." I have remembered those words as I go through this. Now, one way of doing that is to close the door on my wife. To stay in my newfound peace, and move on with life. No one would fault me, including God. (Again the "but.") But, what would that accomplish? If my wife truly was repentant and sorrowful and ready for a REAL recovery and a great marriage, how could I walk away, not knowing what that entailed? Someone above mentioned finding out about missing out on the best. How true. While Luki states we would know that our spouses and us became better people, we also have to remember that God intended us to be together for life. Our marriages were not some horrible mistake. We just screwed them up. So, if God intended us to be together, then it goes to prove that the BEST for our lives is our spouses.

Now, we are talking potential here. If we don't do as we are supposed to in the marriage, we can screw it up...yet again. You can have the best and still screw it up. But that still doesn't mean that that person wasn't the best for us...we just messed up the best thing in our lives.

This is why the Harleys talk about marriages coming through this kind of mess stronger than ever. How can that be? It is because it is the best. But confronted with possible destruction, both spouses came out of it with a better understanding of what marriage is about, and what each other need. Once you reach that point, since that person is the best that God can offer you, it just naturally follows that the relationship would be stronger and both parties tend to make the statements like "I cant believe I almost lost you."

Now, while I am stating all of this, I am still not fully there. I have a dinner with my wife tonight alone. Supposedly, the NC thing happened this past week, and tonight, she wants to sit down and map out her move home and how we move forward. It is her plan, and I am interested in seeing how she wants this played out. But, am I ready to just accept it and move forward? No. I still have my doubts. Someone once said on here that it takes twice as long as the affair to get past it and really move on. So, since it was 20 months long, I guess we have close to 4 years of making up to do before things will be fully behind us.

The point to my rambling here is this. Once the BS finally gets a wall up to protect themselves, they begin to settle down. As Kily stated above, it is at this point that the WS settles down, and doesn't feel pressured or threatened. But, the longer the BS stays in this state, the more secure he/she feels. They begin to feel power, where they were out of control before. They begin to have hope, where they had none before. They begin to see a life that they WANT to live, where a life without their spouse seemed pointless. The longer they stay in this position, the more walls that go up. The ironic thing is, at the same time, due to the BS backing off...the WSs walls are coming down! Thus, they start asking weird questions at midnight like "What are you doing?" or "What's up?"

But, the BS continues moving away as long as the WS has not made the move back. The BS continues to get strengthened, rebuilding their egos, their lives. The WS begins to see this, and now...almost assumes the role of the BS. They now become panicked. Not only do they have the guilt of screwing up the relationship, but now...they realize what fools they were for ever wanting to be without their spouse. Next thing you know...it is the FWS that is pursuing the BS.

If done early enough, then it is at this point that reconciliation can happen. But I want to get to this in a minute. First, let me say that I believe Plan B is all about this. I read here that most marriages here are not saved in Plan A. Plan A just makes it possible. It is Plan B...when the roles begin to be reversed, when the WS truly faces the consequences of their actions, while at the same time, the BS no longer is this needy, blithering idiot...it is at this point that most of these come to their salvation.

I want you to consider another circumstance in this. Not only is the BS stronger. Not only is WS forced to live FULLY in the life they created with OP. Not only does the WS begin to feel the loss of the BS. But, thanks to all of this...the BS is now on equal footing with the WS. What do I mean by this? Look, the WS was ready to end the relationship, right? They have proven to themselves and their spouse that they are capable of walking away. But the BS, for the most part, has remained in the marriage. Neither the WS nor the BS have faith in the BS being able to get their act together and put together a new life, and improved life. When it begins to happen, it surprises the WS. It makes them mad. But it also surprises the BS.

At first, the BS feels guilty. They feel like they shouldn't feel this way…that they are being like the WS. But after awhile, they begin to feel good about it…empowered. This is when they head to Plan B. They finally see some light at the end of the tunnel for the first time…and they RUN for the light!

All of this leads to the equal footing I talked about above. You see, when the affair was going on, and the BS was spinning out of control, both the BS and the WS saw the BS as having no say in this. The WS says, "divorce me…stay…I don't care." The BS says "I can't divorce her…I love her…besides, it will never be the same without her." So, we take a position of inferiority in the affair, while the WS and OP assume a superior position. How many of you BSs had people sort of patting you on the head, saying "Poor Mortarman…I feel so sorry for you. Blah, blah, blah?" You were someone with no power…someone to be pitied.

But, when you reach the point that Luki has, and I did two months ago…all this changes. Now, the WS has to face the fact that you are equal in this. That you also have the ability to walk. Before, if they had come back while you were out of control, the BS would have accepted ANY conditions. But now, there has to be negotiation. And the WS now knows that they cannot demand anymore. That the BS would walk.

I don't know how many times over the last two months that my wife made demands of me, wanted things that I just could not accept, and then I stood up to it. Before, I would have accepted them…just to have her back. Now, I say "No." And you know what? It is her coming back a day later asking if we can compromise. What a switch!!!

In summary, I believe Luki is at the point that he needs to be for reconciliation. Luki, I believe that once confronted with a truly repentant wife, you WILL know what to do. But Kily, as in your case, this will all depend on how long it takes Luki's WW to come out of the fog and see this. The longer he is in this new stage, the more love he loses for her. Until eventually, there will be nothing she can do.

I believe this is all some sick dance. And it is all about timing.

In His arms.

<small>[ March 20, 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Wow Mortarman,

I am awed by your insight into my situation. It is right out of some script. And you're are spot on; Each day things stay in this state the less likely a reconciliation is from my point of view. I'l write more later. I have to read your post again. Thanks.

-Luki

Mortarman....

Your post is very moving.. Like I said, I'm not to that point yet.. but I strongly suspect I will be in the near future. To hear you put it all out like that, in such a simple, yet complex picture. It's amazing.

I almost look forward to the day I can be like Luki and you, and begin to move on. I truly believe that will be the only time I have any chance of my WW wanting to try again. But I still have some Plan A'ing to do first.

Once again, thank you for posting your experiences.

Mortarman-

Yes, this is an acurate description of the dance of infidelity - Sounds like a chapter title for that book your working on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You are so correct. I would like to request that you cut this and start a post for everyone. I think that ALL MBR's should virew this. Perhaps it could be titled - Attention: Dance of infidelity....explanation of dynamics of A and recovery.

Second -

I think that we should all team up and write a book based on all of the advice that we share on these boards.....we could call it - BS meets WS -The best of MB! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Sorry about the hijack Luki.

So Luki:
Does this mean you will be filing or are you still going to wait for her to file?
DB

Hey db,

I have no reason to file. This is her deal. But, I will tell you that I am not set in stone. If I feel the need to file I will.

I second the motion to have mortarman repost his last post is a new thread. It's too buried in this thread.

-Luki

Luki,

I really feel that we are at the same point...after trying and trying, eventually you just run out of fuel.

It's hard to say what will happen in the future, but right now I'm still not ready to file. However, if she filed today, I would move the divorce as fast as possible and not try to hold it up at all.

I don't know about you, but I feel sort of lonely right now. I really haven't told anyone that she has left yet (I know, I'm too protective of her). At the same time, there is a sense that the unknown is coming. Now, most people fear the unknown, but it sort of excites me. I love to dream, and right now I see myself doing all sorts of things (moving, career change) that may improve my life.

Take care and stay strong.

hoping4best,

Absolutely! I feel the same way. The unknown used to scare me but no longer. Like mortarman said, I see the light and the end of the tunnel and instead of crawling towards it like before I am running. I feel like I am about to sprint! What a great feeling-no regrets!

-Luki

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Luki:
<strong>I have the power to choose but I am afraid of making the choice. If my WW wanted to reconcile, I really don't know if I could do it. Is that bad, not wanting to try and walking away? The thing is, if she doesn't want to ever reconcile, that makes it easy for me. See the contradiction?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Luki- Not choosing is still making a choice!

You are exactly where I was before. I finally reached a point that I could stand on my own and didn't want my W back. Two weeks later she came to me to reconcile.

It hurts me because I reached the point that I didn't want her but now that she wants back it is my choice of what to do. I understand your position Luki.

My W and I are going to try and reconcile but I know I can walk away at any point if she goes back to him. I know I have the strength now to do that.

I have not made it too far in this thread but I ust wanted to chime in and say that I understand your position.

You are in my prayers

<small>[ March 20, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Still Trying To Save It ]</small>

STTSI,

At this point if she wanted to reconcile, I could not do it. I would have to see some sustained changes over time before I would even consider it.

Thanks for responding.

-Luki

Luki I understand where you are at right now. I reached that same point. As you know in Jan my W filed and after I responded she stalled the papers. After some time I reached the same peace you have found and I even filed the papers to push the Dv forward. I came to the point that I knew I could live on my own without her.

It was at that point that she contacted me about reconcilliation. We have talked several times since than. She seems very remorseful and has done everything I have asked her to do without hesitation. I understand that you don't feel you could reconcile with her. I still have my doubts also. I feel that I have to try so I know that I have done everything possible. At the first sign of the A I WILL move on. I know I don't need her, I want her. That is a great strength to reach.

So far our recovery is going fine but it has been only a short time.

Good luck, Luki.