((((((( Lisa )))))))

Take a few days off from your H. I wish I could tell you how NOT to think about it all, b/c that's what you need. But if ever I do come up with that formula... you'll be the first to know. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> (and I'll charge everyone else but you for the secret! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

As I said... take a few days from this, as best you can. Don't make any decisions right now, except to make no decisions right now.

Keep posting it out on here... it could very well help you to sort through what actually happened, and allow better insight into the "why" of it all.

Karen

Thank you all for your support.

In the cold light of day, I feel terrible about what I did, but when I realised that he had just sat and told me a bare faced lie, could only be bothered to spend 1 and three quarter hours with me before running off to meet her, and that he physically ran away from me shouting at me, it hurt me beyond belief.

I still have feelings for him, and he for me, but he's still in that place of "you hurt me, it's all your fault". A couple of interesting things, in no particular order, but maybe someone can give some insight.

1. He admitted he is now having sex with her.
2. He said to me "I'm moving soon, probably to XXX, I pay so much money where I am." It's more expensive in XXX, is he moving in with her? Also, why didn't he say "the lease is up on the flat so I'll have to move"
3. He told me he was upset and that's why he argued about the money, but then apologised.
4. When I phoned OW, I asked to speak to him first and then he gave the phone back to her to talk to me - why would he do that?
5. Why did he lie to me about meeting her in the first place when he had been joking about "my young bird"
6. If there is a big hole in his life, she's not doing so good is she!

Thank you all for your love and support. Kily, I feel he should be apologising to me, but I know I lost it. But do you know what else, I know now how much he has been lieing to me. I always believed him, and he knows that I know now.

Karen, H_P, Married thanks all for the thoughts and hugs. I need them. Johnny, Someone, I appreciate your thoughts before, sorry I did so badly.

Off to my Mum's for the weekend now, but did I ever mess up. I wonder know if he will fight me for more money which last night he admitted wasn't his and he didn't want.

Very sad and down today.
Lisa

Dear Lisa,

Just a quick note from work. I'm sorry, sorry, sorry you had to go through that, but again, I admire your courage for initiating this contact and going through with such a painful experience.

I would like to comment more, but I'm at work and probably won't get time on the computer again until Sunday.

I'm a little confused as to the logistics of your phone call to the OW. Did you call her AFTER you got home from the meeting, when you were very upset?

OK, so it was a LB in terms of the fact that you feel you may have made things worse, and alienated his feelings for you even further. But as far as being "flamed" by the OW - lets remember here that despite the fact that you and H are separated - this girl is involved with a married man, and it is within your "remit" to warn her that the problems that contributed to the breakdown of your marriage are not yet resolved. I don't think you have to be ashamed of having contacted her, and the fact is that she put you down big time to try to shove you back into your corner. Don't take this into yourself and believe it, Lisa. That was "fighting talk" pure and simple on her part.

This was a very painful experience for you, and yet, like you said, in the cold light of day, you can look at this and have found out more information. Yes, H has lied to you more than you knew. He is also not being up-front about his current plans. What do you mean by "he admitted that the money is not his and he doesn't want it." Is that true? Are you being TOO nice, Lisa? Its hard to tell - you are trying to be reasonable and fair, which is commendable, but are you letting yourself in for being taken advantage of? Its hard for me to tell.

But clearly, if H is telling the truth about his feelings (which you seem to be feeling he is), then he still has strong feelings for you and misses you very much, despite enjoying the "consolation" of another woman. He is finding out that you are not instantly replaceable, and he is finding out the hard way.
He appears to explode whenever you catch him out in his lies. All WS lie - its in the handbook. And he is still a WS, even though you are separated.

Also, you say he "ran away from you in the street, shouting". OK - AWFUL experience. But he was not necessarily rejecting YOU. He was running away (literally) from facing his own problems and his own lies.

I think you did well - what you did took a lot of courage. Please give yourself some credit for this.

Take care,
LIR

Lisa-

I'm sorry the meeting was so rocky but you half expected that going in. He's really making a huge mistake with this A and it's sure to end very badly what with him carrying so much emotional baggage. The important thing for you to do is to brush yourself off and carry on. If you said some things you regret, forget about it...we all do. As you mentioned before, alot of our situations are similar in that we can't make our spouses do anything as much as we'd like to. Hang in there, you're doing well....

Hey Lisa,
From your description of events, there's only 1 conclusion - he isnt only hurt, he is TERRIBLY hurt. And, he wants to let you know by all possible means that this is the case, and does everything to hurt you back. And you fell for his provocations. This cycle isnt going to help anyone - neither you nor him. So, recognise his snide remarks & provocations for what they really are - cries for help and of hurt. It takes two to play this game - simply refuse to play with him on that level. Why not sending him a letter apologising and sharing your thoughts? Maybe a mail exchange will be cooler and more thought through.
Nick

Lisa, you really sound like you need a hug

((((((Lisa)))))))

I agree w/ the above statements. Your H does sound hurt. But at the same time, he sounds unsure of himself. "A hole in my life" sounds like he may be considering what he's really loosing. Don't give up hope, by any means, but please don't let it consume you. You focus on Lisa for now, and recharge your batteries. Sounds like a visit with your mom is exactly what you need.

Emotions run high when being hurt by the person we love the most. It's only natural. I hope you have the best of luck, and can find the peace you need to calm yourself.

And make sure to keep us updated!

Lisa-

If there's one thing that you should realize from your own A, it's that the WS ALWAYS lies. Think about how you treated H during your A. Is he doing anything unexpected. YES, he is having an A. He is sleeping with her. He is on the fence. You have gone through this from the point of view where he is now.

Consider for a minute what things brought you out of your FOG. What things did your husband do to contribute to your change of heart? What made you "wake up"? Think about where he is at and how this might help you with his FOG....

In a way, you are finally at D-DAY. You knew it, but here is your validation. Get your emotions out and then we can start looking at your plans for the future....

Lisa,

I don't think you are going to like what I have to say. While you have received a lot of support on this thread, I think from what I have heard that you have behaved very very poorly. You called this meeting to tell him you wanted a divorce from him. To tell him that it was his fault at least 50% for the ending of this marriage. YOU wanted it to end so that you can move on and so that you are at peace.

So what did you do? Not well.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In the cold light of day, I feel terrible about what I did, but when I realised that he had just sat and told me a bare faced lie, could only be bothered to spend 1 and three quarter hours with me before running off to meet her, and that he physically ran away from me shouting at me, it hurt me beyond belief.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you were hurt why? You then called this OW and started to get your revenge. Nice real nice!

Lisa, it seems to me your H is right to move on as he did. He isn't safe around you, for you want your revenge because he wouldn't do what you wanted him to do: forgive you for your A, accept that HE failed in the marriage, Oh! and he needs to change as well.

Now many here do exactly that, but in case you haven't noticed most needed a lot of help. You are expecting something very hard from him or you are going to extract your revenge.

Now one might say he is getting his revenge by having an A. Perhaps, or he is seeking solice from the things that have happened. I don't know. I don't know his side.

What I do know, is that getting revenge on your part seems pretty mean spirited in light of the fact that the meeting was for you to tell him to toddle off into the future without you, that you had better and other things to do with your life.

I am being harsh with you for a reason. This mess isn't over and your behavior strongly suggests that you are NOT ready for a divorce: you haven't earned it yet. I think in the cold light of day, you need to stop and do some thinking. At the very minimum, any separation should be done with a minimum of animosity.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

Hi Lisa,

I would only add that I totally agree with Nick123.

Your H is REALLY REALLY hurting. That's was all this crazy mess right now is about. He's using every weapon he can think of...and you are reacting to him...with the results you are experiencing.

I think you can try to put this last encounter in perspective by reminding yourself that you are dealing with a person in extreme pain, and who has NO CLUE as to how to get a grip on himself. Try not to get sucked into it...hard as that may be.

DOn't dwell too much on this last meeting, instead...think of a way to let him know that you are sorry that it got out of control, and that you fell badly about it and the pain you have caised him...then just sit and wait, and continue to build yourself and your life up.

Good luck.

Umm -

I know it may not be my place to say anything, but JL, I highly respect your advice to others on this forum, and I know how helpful you have been to Lisa in the past. Still, I think your "MB 2x4" in this case was somewhat heavy handed here.

If you look back over Lisa's post, you will see that she has not given a coherent account of what happened in that meeting - she throws out random comments about events that happened during the evening, with no real sequence. We don't know exactly what was said and in what order, and it is unfair to assume we do know. On the surface, it appears she went prepared to ask for a divorce, with an offer of financial settlement, but come face-to-face with each other, it is clear that emotions between the two are still highly charged.

Many people reading this assume that her H is hurt and all of his reactions can be attributed to his hurt over her affair. He is obviously hurt - I am a BS and can identify with the pain and disillusionment he is going through. But there are many BS who do not react the way her H has - of course, many do.

You implied that she is "expecting" him to handle things without the benefit of support such as counselling or MB - he has had plenty of opportunity to get involved with this kind of support - he has gone for individual counselling. However, he has rejected all attempts at MC and refuses to discuss anything that would lead him to address the issues which were troubling their marriage for a long time before the affair. Instead, he, in effect, chose to leave her because of her affair and start an affair of his own. He has given her no indication that he is interested in working on their marriage now, just as there was no interest in working on their differences before her affair.

Yes, it looks like things heated up considerably between them during the course of the conversation. And it appears that Lisa rang OW as an act of revenge. I am not sure this is exactly what happened. She says she rang OW and asked to speak to him, then OW put him on the line, then he handed the phone back to OW and a conversation ensued between Lisa and OW which turned bitter.

I may be wrong, but as a woman, I think if I had been in Lisa's shoes that night, I may have ended up in the same pickle. My instincts would have told me that he would immediately go to the OW's house. I would have been so churned up by the way the encounter with H ended, that I would have wanted to speak to him, to try to resolve the confrontation. I would have picked up the phone, shaking like a leaf with both anger and fear, and called the OW, not because I wanted "revenge" on her, but to speak to my H. Plenty of BS have been through this scenario on these boards. Lisa's H doesn't appear to have wanted to speak to her, but to have handed the phone to OW, at which point, Lisa loses control of herself and says something to the effect that "you don't know this man you are getting involved with," and all the frustration about her H's refusal to address the problems in their marriage and in his life come boiling out in the OW's ear, when, in actuality, it is her H that she needs to say these things to. OW reacts with contempt. Bad scene. Bad feelings. Mess.

It seems to me that it is clear they both have strong feelings for each other and there is much hurt on both sides. There is some question as to whether H is financially reliable. I don't think it is fair to assume the worst of Lisa's actions - and, in my opinion, no-one EARNS a divorce. Divorce is the always the tragic and messy death of one's hopes and dreams. How can one do anything that would "earn" that? I don't understand this kind of perspective on divorce.

LIR

Lisa,

just catching up as I've been away for a week's hol and was away with work before that.

So sorry that the meeting turned out like it did.

I read somewhere else today that:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you aren't successful because of your successes; you're successful ultimately in the way you deal with failure. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know that the meeting didn't go how you planned - so don't beat yourself up about it. We're all human and all mess up. The difference is knowing when and how we messed up and aiming not to again. From reading all of your posts you have never needed telling when you messed up so don't feel bad, don't let anyone else make you feel bad about it either - just keep trying

and don't forget to smile because you're you

bowd

Lisa,
I don't have much of value to add here.

Just know that I'm thinking of you, and hoping you are doing better.

H_P

Dear All

I am back from my mother's and want to thank you for your comments and support.

Firstly, I guess I want to respond to JL. JL I have always valued your support and experience. I have to say though, some of your comments are beyond belief. There are things quoted in there that I have never said or intimated.

"You called this meeting to tell him you wanted a divorce from him. To tell him that it was his fault at least 50% for the ending of this marriage. YOU wanted it to end so that you can move on and so that you are at peace."

Actually, I didn't even mention divorce to him. I was advised that if I needed to settle financially with him (which is what he has requested), I should do this in conjunction with DV to protect both of us from future claims.

Nowhere did I mention that it was at least 50% his fault. I did not quote any figure nor do I apportion any blame. Tell me JL how many times you have said, others have said, or that I have read that the conditions that lead to the A are the responsibility of both parties. I have NEVER justified the A, but there were issues in our M that had not been addresssed. Are you telling me that H is blame free and is the poor hard done by WS who is now allowed to act in any way he wants?

"And you were hurt why? You then called this OW and started to get your revenge. Nice real nice!"

Why was I hurt? I was hurt, because I went with honesty and openness. I had to endure my H shouting me down in a public place, goading me into loosing my temper, (at one point before I did loose my temper he said, "I think I preferred the old Lisa who would have shouted back and had a go at me"), threaten me with taking away my home and my money (even though I have financially supported him for the last 12 years to the point that he now has no debt thanks to me, would never have been able to have a home after his first M broke down, bailed him out of a financial whole more times than I care to remember, had my mother bail him out financially etc. etc. Finally, he sat there and looked me in the eye and said "I have to leave, I'm going to Germany tomorrow and need to sort my things out".

Kily is of course right, that I should know that a WS never tells the truth. Yes, by this point I was hurt. But then, when he started abusing me in the street (shrieking verbal abuse at me), and physically ran off, I was hurt beyond belief.

After that, I called my friend, and of course I realised then that he was going to meet OW. No, JL, I did not intend to extract revenge at that point. I called H on his mobile several times, he did not answer. So I called him on her mobile and said "Can I speak to my husband please.", partly as verification for my fears. She said "WHO" I asked again for him, she passed the phone to him. I spoke to him and told him how hurt I was, and yes, I got really angry.

He then said "I don't have to listen to this". I said "Fine, I'll talk to Shiney Head then". H (and answer me this JL if he is sooooooo damaged and hurt), gave the phone back to her. It wasn't my intention to speak to her, and he passed the phone back, so I did. If that was me, I would have said "Not likely, I'm cutting the phone off now, and switching it off for the night". So what sort of game was he playing. Nice, very nice to use your own words JL.

As you may remember, I only recently found out that H had lied to me from the beginning of our R about the breakdown of his first M. His first W told me that the day she gave birth to her youngest child, H met OW (yes, he's had more than one), and 2 weeks later he walked out for 3 days saying "I don't love you anymore, I'm in love someone else" To find out that he had lied to me from the very beginning of our R was truly distressing. I wondered if he was repeating the pattern, so I asked OW if she knew the circumstances of the first M breakdown. Funnily enough he was, he had lied to her too about what had happened. So JL, what do you make of that?

"What I do know, is that getting revenge on your part seems pretty mean spirited in light of the fact that the meeting was for you to tell him to toddle off into the future without you, that you had better and other things to do with your life"

How dare you, how dare you make that assumption that I have better things to do with my life. I begged H to consider working on our M, yet I had no option when he choose to walk out and start an A. I have no option but to put up with his continued anger, and absolute refusal to even think about working on our M. What am I meant to do? Just go out with other people and have another A? Life my life as a single person whilst he is preparing to move in with someone else whilst still married to me? Revenge was not my initial thought or plan. I have had her phone number since Christmas and never used. I was crushed and humiliated and hurt. Perhaps now I am beginning to understand how he felt.

"This mess isn't over and your behavior strongly suggests that you are NOT ready for a divorce: you haven't earned it yet. I think in the cold light of day, you need to stop and do some thinking. At the very minimum, any separation should be done with a minimum of animosity."

Tell me, how do you earn a DV JL? Do I collect points, do some work for charity or what? I don't think this choice is mine alone, and H has made it abundantly clear that is what he wants and we have no future. Also, tell me how you work with a minimum of animosity, when my H continues to work along the lines of anger and hurt and will blow up at any given opportunity?

I think I have spent myself now, but JL, I would appreciate your response. I wonder whether now I will not see another post from you in some time. JL if I was not the FWS and was JUST the BS (as I am now, and let me tell you, having confirmation that he is having sex with her was like a knife in the gut), would you have told them the same?

For everyone else, thank you for your support and heartfelt comments. LIR, your last post hit some things right on the head and I hope this has answered some of the comments from your first post.

H left me a very angry message the following day. My revenge? None, I sent him a text apologising. Him - another response of anger.

Another question I have for everyone, if H is in so much pain, how can he be engaged in another R that started whilst he was still living with me and has been continuing for the past 4 months? As my sister said "Uuum, I don't understand, he has a hole in his life which is so big, but hey sorry, I've got to run off to sh** my girlfriend, because I'm so hurt and desperate". Her view and that of my friends that know both of us and our R from many years ago is that my H is maniuplative and always has been.

Nick, I don't know if they were cries for help. When he was saying how much he missed me, I tentatively said "Are you sure, it doesn't have to be this way?" Guess what, he rejected me there too.

Litchfield, I worry that through my actions and words, he will become vindicitve and try and take the house from me. That is why I find it hard to let go of what I did say and why I did it. My fear now is that he will intentionally try and take my money and my home.

Johnny - thanks for the hug. I needed that.

Kily - you know, I'm not so sure whether it was anything H did that brought me out of the fog or whether it was more to do with something I didn't do, does that make sense? One night I realised that I didn't treat H in a certain way, and it was very wrong. All of a sudden, it just clicked. Do you know what I mean? Sometimes, I believe it just clicks.

Eleanor - thanks for your words. You know what, I'm in pain too, but I'm not sleeping around. It seems that all I can do at the moment (however reasonable, however measured I am) is apologise to H, but he can treat me in anyway he wants. That's hard to accept.

LIR, as I say, you summed up the situation fairly well in your last post. Did I actively seek revenge? No. Do I regret what I did, hell yes. I have made the situation much worse for me irrespective of him. I'm sure to her it will mean absolutely nothing. Let's face it her morals and principles are questionable given the fact that she actively sought out a MM to date. LIR, I believe you know me well. And you also know more about me than others here.

Bowd, good to see you back and thank you to you. How are things going with you, I've been thinking about you recently.

Lisa

Lisa,

I will accept my beating graciously.

However you said at the beginning of this post: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well friends, I have decided that I can accept so many things that have happened in my life and with my M, and one of those is that H will never forgive me or be prepared to try and heal and mend our M. I will be asking H for a divorce. You may all think this is way too soon, but I know he will never accept any responsibility for what was wrong in our M, not that what he is doing now is damaging me, our M and most importantly him. I believe he will crash, badly too. I also think that if we had tried to rebuild, we would be struggling because of so many of the issues that were a problem to us and had gone unaddressed for so long - you who have followed my story know what some of those issues were, although I never shared everything here.

I don't know what response I will get. Probably one of gratitude that I will let H go quickly and with as least pain as possible for both of us. I think he will want out to get on with his life. I think really this is what I want to do too. Of course this makes me sad, of course I miss him, of course I still care about him and his wellbeing, of course I bitterly regret my A and am remorseful, but do I love H and do I want to be with him? I think, honestly, the answer is no.

I do not need or want to be with anyone, and yes, I'm already getting offers, so maybe there's still hope for me [Big Grin]
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Given your decision, why didn't just walk off? Your decision was made. You walk off contact your soliciter, and do what you had decided to do. That is what you should have done, given the decision you had already made. I was not claiming your H was a saint, but I do think in your anger you went way overboard.

There is nothing else for me to say.

I wish you the very best in your life. I know you have learned a lot. I hope this last episode leads to some more learning.

God Bless,

JL

JL - you KNOW why I didn't walk off. Because I still care about H, because he can still hurt me as I can hurt him. Because he could still play mind games (giving the phone to OW, running off, threatening to take my money and home) and wind me up because I suppose I still love him and he still loves me. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Sadly, sometimes, that's not enough. Because both of you have to be together about wanting to make a go of it - I can't make H try with me. He is still adamant that he will never forgive me and will never spend thousands of pounds on councilling for an outcome that might not be successful. He still doesn't want to be with me. So with my time apart from him in Plan B, and him not wanting to try I did find a sense of calm, a sense of peace. I did think it was best to move on, and I still do. But yes, it was driven in part by his inability to want to work with me.

I have learnt from this encounter. I have learnt that we are both still very hurt, and still care and still have strong feelings. But it is best for us both to move on into new lives without each other. Maybe one day we will be friends. Maybe one day we will BOTH know how foolish we have been, not just me. I know I was wrong JL, I should have taken a step back. Hope that beating wasn't too hard.....

I will be seeing my Solicitor on Thursday.

Lisa

Lisa,

It seems to me that one of the most difficult times is right where you are now. It is clear that this could be patched up. There is love on both sides and frankly I hate to see him "win". He is you know, by pushing you away, he justifies his own actions, and you filing will justify them further.

On the other hand, his "win" is a pyric victory, because he loses the woman that he loved. Sort of stupid right?

But, at the end of the day, you need to protect yourself and see the Solicitor. Having done that you, "lose" because this isn't what you wanted and may still not want.

I am not seeing any real winners in this outcome are you? That saddens me. It frustrates me as well, but it really isn't my business now is it?

Still... I would like to see you both happy.

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL - you are right - listen you most often are right <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

This is the situation, you have summed it up accurately. But, one thing I am not going to do is file - not now. I have told H that is up to him, so in some senses the ball is back in his court - I am not going to DV him at the moment.

It is your business of course it is!! By coming here to MB and when I started posting I knew that what I had to say and by opening myself up I was in essence "fair game". I don't mean that I expect anyone to take a pop at me, just that I want and expect honest thought and opinion. It doesn't mean I have to listen to it or act upon it, but most of the time, I do. People here have been incredible to me. I e-mail quite a few people off line and talk to one or two too. I honestly don't think I would have survived without MB during my darkest and sadest days back in the summer.

JL, I know this may sound stupid or crazy, but where H is now, he needs to do these things for himself. Even if (see, even if I say) a DV happens and goes through, does that mean H and I would never ever have a future together again? I just know that now doesn't seem to be right for him or me. I still wish I could have somehow persuaded him to come to MC to try and work on things, but as soon as he started with OW, his anger seemed to come back even stronger. I believe she is egging him on.

Thank you for your support.

Lisa

Lisa,

I am betting it has less to do with OW, but his guilt about his actions and yes the presence of an OW.

I cannot see how he could feel very proud of himself. As you know, anger is a secondary emotion, driven by something else. I am guessing guilt at this point.

God Bless,

JL

JL

Maybe that helps me to understand a bit more where he is coming from - maybe it is guilt, maybe it is still love. I believe there is a thin line between love and hate. I think the hardest thing though is his inflexibility and how I failed to break that down. Most efforts to date have failed, and the continued kick in the teeth (even on Thursday) leaves me with less and less energy to want to try. Of course now, I made it worse by my actions.

Lisa

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: Lisa in London ]</small>

Lisa-

Feeling really puny right now; can't quite come up with a good response for you, but I wanted to let you know that I had been reading your post and was there. Your husband's actions were quite reprehensible; but, of course, you already know this. I'm SO sorry you've had to go through this... will be praying for you and for strength for your Thursday meeting.

Fondly,
Calypso