"that helps me to understand a bit more where he is coming from - maybe it is guilt, maybe it is still love"

...yes, and add to that, a good portion of hurt. I think we all violently agree with the fact that your H is not facing up to the difficutl emotional turmoil inside him and prefers just to flee - and, more likely than not, to repeat mistakes in his next relationship (as he may have already done, as you are his second wife?). He (and maybe you too...?) ignores the fact that simply 'moving on' may be in fact the more hurtful, less rewardful move.
So, my practical suggestion is that you two guys get together in some form of counceling, maybe not with the aim of reconciliation (albeit, that might be an option lateron), but simply to tell each other all the things that you wanted get off your chest and tell him a long time ago, and vice versa, in a safe environment, without you two beating each other up.
Take care,
N

Hey Nick, Calypso

Nick, do you know what, you have said some very poignant and accurate things there? Is H still running through his R's (even M's) making the same mistakes without stopping to look at what happened, why and what is going on? Absolutely, and I honestly believe (call it gut, woman's intuition, whatever) that he will move in with Shiney Head in June. How can that possibly be right or good for him?

I do not try to understand his hurt and pain. But, he is still so very angry with me, I hoped (for his sake as well as mine) that perhaps some of that anger would have subsided, but it seems even worse in some ways, because with it has come a defiance, an agression to get even with me almost. Nick, I think it would be a brilliant idea if I could get H to agree to councilling, even if only to help disolve the M.

But how can I do that? I think he would point blank out and out refuse, and probably even more so after our upset on Thursday. Do you have any suggestions. I know someone who used a conciliation service (I guess a bit like ACAS for M or something, and she said it helped enormously for them).

C, I am so sorry you are feeling rough. I too am thinking of you. If you want to post more on our other thread to talk directly, please do. Thank you for caring and checking in on me. It means so much to me.

Lisa

Well, I'm getting ready to take my questions again to the Solicitor tomorrow.

It's strange because sometimes it feels like it doesn't have to be this way and other times I think this is the only way it can possibly be!!! I know that sounds like absolute garbage, but it's where I am.

I think one of the things that upsets me about H is there has been absolutely no wavering at all on the fact that he sees we have no future together. I wonder how he can so quickly have made that decision. It took me a couple of months to even think about anything before realising that, as you said Nick, it could be more rewarding to try again.

I still believe that H will never look past his hurt which fuels his anger and his refusal to look at the issues in our M. This of course saddens me because I know it will all end in tears for him, but I just feel I have to move on with my life for now. I could wait years and years for him to see things any differently, and let's face it, he may never do that. I guess some people just can't forgive or don't want to for whatever reason.

Anyway, I'm rambling here, but needed to jot some thoughts down!

Lisa

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still believe that H will never look past his hurt which fuels his anger and his refusal to look at the issues in our M. This of course saddens me because I know it will all end in tears for him, but I just feel I have to move on with my life for now. I could wait years and years for him to see things any differently, and let's face it, he may never do that. I guess some people just can't forgive or don't want to for whatever reason. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You could not have said it any better than that. At some point you have to, at the very least, prepare to move on, and create some certainty in your life. It's sad that your H may miss out on a truely wonderful person, but what can you do? We are only half of the equation. Take care.

-Luki

Thanks Luki - sometimes I still get so confused by it all. How it could even have happened in the first place is beyond me. I do feel that, in the main, I have forgiven myself, but I still get upset by the mess that is left and H's volatile and angry behaviour.

I also worry at the speed his R with OW is happening and I feel pretty sure he will move in with her in June when his lease expires. I think that would be such a terrible move for him.

Anyway, just wondering some of those things when your mind isn't as focussed as it should be on work - one of the problems of working from home!!

Thanks again, I do honestly think I'm going mad sometimes.

Lisa

Hi Lisa. A few comments on your situation.

You mention more than once that you can't understand where your H is coming from...telling you there's a hole in his life without you and then running off to be with an OW, acting so angry and never wavering from "there's no hope for us".

I did all those things. So I can understand them well. I was the WS, instead of the BS, but then again he is a WS at this point as well. Basically, he's running away from the pain. If he didn't love you, it wouldn't hurt nearly as much. It seems like he's had a history of not knowing how to deal with the pain. So understand this also...if he actually wakes up and decides to "fix" the runner in him and come back to the marriage to make things work, he's got to not only walk through THIS fire, but his past as well. If he realized he is making a mistake by throwing away this marriage and running off with the OW...then he has to also realize the destruction and pain he caused in his last marriage and any other relationships he ran from. The present and future are difficult enough to deal with...let alone having to reprocess your past mistakes as well.

That's not to say it isn't possible, because it always is.

Anyway, if there's anything I can do to help you to understand better what it is he is doing and why, I will try. Just let me know what you need to know.

Take care.

Hi Lisa,

Yes, giving it a try, or a "marriage debriefing" would definitely be helpful, for all involved. I think we all agree on that. But, be honest - did you recently told him so (or similar), in a non-confrontational way? I wasn't present of course during your last bust-up, but maybe you fell for some snide remarks and answered back to which he felt even more attacked etc etc etc? I guess what I am saying is, having the good intention is one thing, however, bringing it across is another. Bring the actions in line with your goal. My suggestion is that you write him a nice letter, making the suggestion that you jointly go for some 'debriefing' to help & cope with all these hurtful things that happened... that this isn't a competition of who gets hurt the most, but simply a crutch to get on with life...that the cost of this is maybe a hundred quid or so and really, what's the downside? Establishing a way to communicate might additionally save on solicitors' cost - what a bargain. I'd invite him, don&#8217;t be too bossy or tell him what HE needs... just ask, mention that maybe he might find it helpful too. And if he refuses, try to engage him in a discussion why not, show patience, ask again.

Regards
N

Lisa,
I have been thinking about posting to you ever since you came home from your trip. I just don't have any good advice for you. I believe the reason is that you are doing so well.

Let me explain.

You don't feel really good about things. You know that much of the problem was created by you and you still feel guilty about it, but you are doing all you can. I really feel you are doing all you can. You help others, you have continued to think about how you could make your own M work. You are still thinking about it and trying to come up with some way, any way to change things and make things right.

It is true that you don't always say or do the right thing, but who of us is able to do that?

Your advice is very good, well thought out, and makes sense. You care about others, and try to help when you can.

You even realized that you still have some love left and that until it is gone, you don't want to leave the M.

I have a great deal of respect for you. Most that come here want to be able to say " I did everything I could to save my M." I believe someday you will be able to say that and that it will be true.

Sorry about the continued pain, and there is probably not much we can do for you there. Sorry that sometimes you feel you may go mad. JL's original post is probably still the best advice. You already have that memorized, but for others that read here, it is time and patience. You know it is true.

Even though you often feel low, I say you are doing well and are on schedule. Perhaps your marriage can be saved, perhaps not. But your heart is slowly saving itself, and I believe it will be healed. I really do see you as doing well.

As you can see, there is no real advice for you in this post, but you have my vote of confidence.
Keep it up.

SS

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Dear All

Many thanks for your thoughts and comments.

SS - I always feel pleased to see a post from you. You have a sense of calm and peace about you that jumps off the PC screen and hits me smack between the eyes!!!! Yes, you are right, generally I am doing well, and I see Thursday as one of those setbacks that are inevitable. I am determined not to do anything so stupid again - what's the point - oh yes there was some fleeting pleasure (talking to OW,not H being upset), but I felt more traumatised afterwards and I wish I hadn't had to go through that.

I also think it is true about me wanting to make things right - not necessarily about saving the M, because H really seems adamant that he doesn't want to go there, but even in the realisation that he is so messed up and the concern I have for his wellbeing. I want to put it right for him, but in some ways, only he can do that. Thank you for your support.

Hey Nick - honestly hand on heart I did not react to H in any negative way when we were together - not at all. It was only after he had run off and I made my stupid phone calls that things deteriorated. I had a look on the internet yesterday and there is a National Mediation service which can help couples negotiate in relation to the settlements etc. which would of course save a lot on Solicitors fees. In relation to his upset and anger and my responses to that, I still think he would refuse to go to any sort of MC. He has this very strong "It's nothing to do with you, I don't want to" attitude, and I fear that I will make him more aggravated if I try anything. As I say, he referred to the "old Lisa" who he preferred - the one that would shout and get angry and have a go..... I do think though that I will suggest mediation to agree settlements if he is unable to accept my offer.

Hello H4F - it was good to see you. I haven't seen you about in a while. I hope your recovery is still going well.

You have analysed the situation very accurately. H has run from all his adult Rs - his first wife, his OW, and now me. He has said several times that he does not want to spend thousands of pounds on MC to dredge up the past and not even guarantee a successful outcome. He is sooo stuck in the mindset, and this is a pattern he's followed throughout his life, what if anything will make him change?????? He is 46 years old and is seeing a 30 year old, this is much easier for him, how could I possibly suggest to him (and I mean even for his wellbeing which I so worry about) that he's just being crazy. After d-day, I just didn't know if I was coming or going, where I wanted to be or which way was up. Something specifically triggered me that made me realise I had to do everything to try and see if my M could be saved. I don't think H will have a trigger because he seems happy with her, he's having sex and all I do is distress him - oh yes, my behaviour was despicable telephoning him, but he could lie and hurl abuse at me. That is classic H stuff. Will it change, what will make it change?

Thank you again to everybody. I am off to see the Solicitor this morning. I will then have to contact H, and who knows what more upset this will bring......

Lisa

Well, I went to see the new Solicitor this morning.

Very long story short, H's bravado about being entitled to half is not true, and he also probably has a very good pension which I could claim on - not that I particularly want to. All I want is to give him a fair settlement and keep my house if possible.

It seems that the Court does not take into account why an M broke down nor does it apportion blame in relation to the financial settlement.

Once again, I was advised that I should DV to make the settlement. Well, I guess I knew that. I have written H a note - it is not emotional or about feelings. I apologised for my behaviour last week, and frankly, I can't see any point in becoming bogged down in who said what or why at this time. If H wants to move on, I want to make sure he has what he is entitled to as he does. So, my note just says that I need more info from him, and I need to get more info.

At the end I tell him that if he wants to file for DV he should do, if not I will. Again, this could be debated, do I really want to, does he, but as the Solicitor said to me "You can get married again, but protect yourself and your assets now by bringing this to a conclusion.

So here I am, on the threshold of beginning DV proceedings. I'm not sure how I feel. I feel relieved that it is likely I will be able to make a fair offer to H and save my house, but that I can't save my M still makes me incredibly sad.

One day, I know I will look back on this whole mess, and realise that whilst I was stupid, so very wrong and hurt him so unbelievable, I learnt so much from this terrible mistake.

Thank you all.
Lisa

LIL-

Hey, just wanted to wish you strength as I know that what you're dealing with right now is no fun at all. I filed for the D as well, also because of financial concerns so I can sympathize. You mentioned how you've learned some valuable lessons and that's the most important thing you know...for your future happiness I mean. Hang in there, you're holding up very well. Take care from the sunny and blooming SE!

I haven't had anything to offer in way of advice Lisa... but I have been keeping up with this thread. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am glad to hear that you've got some legal advice to go by now. It really does make the mind more at ease, don't you think? I know I was relieved to read of some of the info you've learned! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm not sure how the family court works in the UK, but here in Canada, before filing for a D, your attorney must ask you whether or not you have interest in MC. My lawyer asked me TWICE just to be sure! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> LOL. I'm not sure what difference it would have made if I'd said, "Yes, I would like to go to MC", as I have no idea if it can be ordered by the court or not. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Anyways... it's something that you may want to inquire about, the next time you're talking to your lawyer.... er... "solicitor". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> (it sure does sound nicer in your country! LOL).

Karen

Hi Litchfield, Karen and thank you both for your support.

Litchfield, you are right, it is horrible. It's really not exactly what I want to do - let's face it, who really wants a DV, but the Solicitor was very clear on how I need to protect myself and my assets. Given H's vulnerability and unpredictability, I have to agree. I wish somewhere something would ring in his mind and he would realise what a fool he is being - irrespective of me.

Karen, yes, I feel totally reassured by this man. He was incredibly professional and very warm. The first woman I went to see made the experience so much worse. This fella made a not very pleasant experience bearable, and explained everything very very well. I hope that H will take some independent advice (rather than a mate at work who will tell him what he wants to hear) because he would be very foolish to try and persue this through the courts.

I sent the letter off yesterday as advised by the Solicitor. This asks H to find out some figure work (which the court would need) and tells him that I have to do the same. I end by asking him if he will file for DV or whether he wants me to. It fair cuts me up that he has been so incredibly adamant that there was no hope and no point in even trying and now I have to write to him about DV becase we can no longer even communicate face to face.

So, that's all for now friends, the wheels will soon be in motion.

Lisa