MM-
I am a BS also, actually CTOAN is my husband. I wanted to write and say that I agree with my H…you need to be completely honest with each other, knowing that one or both of you may be hurt from time to time while being honest, you also need to feel safe when being honest with each other. YOU need to be consistent with your actions and words. IMHO anyway. If you’ve told your wife time and time again that you want to be patient and understanding and give her the time she needs to figure this out, then you need to do just that. You can’t loose it one night and tell her that she needs to do this or that before you can trust her again or before she can come home. But if that does happen, and you realize it and you’re sorry for it, call her and tell her all of that and tell her that you don’t want it to happen again and you’ll try not to let it happen again. But you also need to tell her your fears and lean on her when there’s something bothering you.

I had trouble with that for a while…I want to tell him and show him that I love and care for him and I really do feel progress. But I was afraid to tell him what I was afraid of, I didn’t want to let him know I had fears or problems, for fear it would put pressure on him. Or I didn’t want to bring my fears and problems into the relationship and chance that being the breaking point of our marriage. But once I shared my fears with him I did feel better, even though he couldn’t assure me that they would never happen, just sharing with him felt good. And like he said, we need to keep sharing our feelings and fears with each other so we know where the other one is and what’s going on in each other’s head and heart.

Don’t know if anything I said helps, but I’m looking at things from the same side as you. I have some pretty amazing friends that are very encouraging to me and this board has helped us both so much. I just wanted to let you know you’re being thought of and as you know, there are many here that feel for you and understand what you’re doing and are hoping for the best for you, your wife and your marriage.

Fonzee

To everyone that has responded to this…thanks!! It is this forum that has kept me sane, and kept me pointed on the right path. Since there was so much good info in your posts, I will respond to each of you below (thus making this a long post). But first…let me update you.

After I left work last Friday, things were dicey. We had the blow up the night before, and even a little one Friday morning. My wife told me later on that she had gotten in her mind Friday afternoon that it just wasn't going to work. She had already told the OM to get lost. But it seems to her that with the blow up, that we just cannot get past the pain.

Anyway, Friday evening, we were supposed to have dinner as a family. But my wife hadnt called all day. She wasn't even answering her phone. So, about 7pm Friday night, I took the kids and we went to her apartment. This was after reading many of your posts, as well as re-reading the section in SAA on recovery and reconciliation. Just a short note on that: it seems on page 83, it talks about exactly what we were going through last Thursday night. It talked about both spouses not feeling it was their fault, and expected the other to grovel and ask for forgiveness. But Harley is clear…the first thing to do is protect each other, and then start depositing in the love bank. Once the love bank fills up, THEN we can deal with these issues. So, after reading all of this and getting re-focused, I took the kids and went to her apartment.

She was glad to see the kids, but you could see she was still visibly mad. So was I. But I came with a different agenda. Even though BOTH of us had screwed up Thursday night, it was going to take one of us to get us back in the conflict stage again. So, I had to swallow my pride and apologize (although, I did screw up and should apologize). We went into her bedroom and talked for a few minutes. I apologized for going off, for all of the LBs. She just sat there and said she couldn't do it…that she just cant argue anymore. That she wanted to talk about coming home, but I had let it degrade again. Many of the other things she said, I will cover in answering your posts below.

So, I just said "Look, you have a plan. You know what you want. Then do it. Don't let these little setbacks deter you. I am here because I refuse to let setbacks like Thursday night deter me. I am willing to go through this because I know what we can have on the other side. We both are hurting, scared and angry. Isn't it time we stop letting our emotions run things? Let's use our heads for once during this whole crisis. I will do whatever you want. You will never hear me use that name again…NEVER. But I want you to please try to understand where I am and what I have been through. And when you talk to me, please make sure of what you are saying and how I might possibly receive it. Otherwise, I might trigger again. But Mrs. MM, the point here is that you have to make a decision to follow your head, or follow your fear. I will respect either, but we are not going to yo-yo again. Make a decision and let's get on with this."

I left a few minutes later to get the kids in bed. And then the phone calls started. We began to discuss things that night and the next day. Saturday, I took her car and began fixing it (that's a story in itself…maybe I'll include it below!). Saturday night, she came by after her work and sat with me for awhile. In that conversation, she said that she couldn't do what we did Thursday night again…that we need to find a better way to communicate through this. But that she is committed to us moving on.

So, Sunday, she got off work, rented movies in the early afternoon, and came over and spent the day with us. We talked about where things were going to go, and what stuff was going to storage. We talked about how the OM's things that are in her apartment had to get back to his house this week (more on OM below), and how we would get them there. It was a great day. She even called later that night after she had gone back to her apartment and told me that she felt like she hadnt even worked that day…that she had such a great, relaxing time. She then said she was going to make calls on Monday to see if she can get someone to take over her apartment starting April 1st. She then would let me know what day to take off this week so we can move her.

Yesterday, she came by again and we talked briefly about what was happening. We are going to get a truck Friday and Saturday. We will move all of the stuff that is going into storage, and then move all the rest of her stuff to our house. This Thursday, she is going to pack up and move her kitchen stuff. She said she wants everything out by Sunday night. She also said that a mutual friend of ours would then help her move OM's stuff back to his house (a table, a potted tree, and some clothes I think…maybe more stuff.). When she takes the stuff back, she will leave the NC letter for him (he is out of town for two weeks). She then said as she left that she loved me and "please don't let me down." She also said that she was scared, and that I needed to "push" her (by push, I think she means to drive the train…to keep all of this moving along).

On the OM, she told him two weeks ago that she was going home for good. She had been telling them that, and they really havent been together for over a month. He told her he figured she would be back when she finishes school on 6 weeks…that this was all just pressure and stress and that she would be back. Arent OPs serpents?? At least some are! Anyway, that really made her mad, because she lost a little more fog-grog in that exchange. She told me, and a friend of ours, that she is coming out of the fog, and she cant believe what kind of guy she hooked up with. Added to that, he felt she was powerless to resist him and that she would be back. Added to this, when I was working on her car, I found several MAJOR safety problems that could have gotten her killed or injured. She said she had told OM about them for months, but he did nothing but offer to buy her a new car. I asked why she didn't take him up on the offer and she told me that she didn't want to be tied to this person. She has found out many things as she came out of the fog in December, and she is disgusted in what she has done, and the type of guy she was willing to give everything up for. So, when he gets back, he is going to find his stuff back in his house and a NC letter. Her cell phone is on his plan, and that will be left there too. I will be getting her a new one today or tomorrow, as well as changing our home number to an unlisted one (she asked for that…she really wants NO contact). She thinks once he gets it in his skull that he is done, that he will go back to Florida. She is also quitting her gym where she met him, and we are joining one down the street from our house together.

Anyway, the rest of it I will cover in your posts below. Suffice it to say, recovery aint easy…but by staying committed to the plan, even when you LB, you can keep things moving. There is excitement in the house, and my wife is actually playful again. She seems, for the first time during all of this, to be relieved…and I can see so much stress has fallen away now that she has ended all of this. Of course, I know, we are just beginning. But come the end of this weekend, we can really begin.

From: Justlearning
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM,

You could be sly and tricky here OR you could do the old frontal assault. By frontal assault I mean being radically honest with her. I guess I would address this by making the following points and offerings.

1. You don't have to come home. Please do so when you are ready.

2. I will do my best to wait, but I guarantee nothing.

3. I will do my very best to be a good husband to you IF you decide to come home, but I will need your help not your fears to do this.

4. I understand that you are afraid of hurting people by leaving again. I am willing and the children seem to be willing to take the risk. I will discuss this with the children. However, just because we are willing to take the risk doesn't relieve you of giving us your best effort. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL…as usual, you are the voice of reason. I believe that your 4 points should be posted somewhere on this board for all to see. And they are essentially what I said when I went back over Friday night.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM, you still haven't answered my questions about the custody hearing. That is very important information for us to have with regard to offering you advice. But, my feeling is that IF she comes home and actually integrates herself into your and your children's lives again, that her view just might change. The reality is that these views do seem to change to meet the NEEDS of the person playing the games. You cannot control that either. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The issue of the custody hearing, etc is that everything is on hold. The paperwork is on file, but we have not gone to court. I stopped it right after she showed up at my door two months ago and we started working on things. It is still there, but with her coming home, we may soon find it not needed. But I will wait to see how things flush out first.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I do know that you really are at little emotional risk right now, because you KNOW you can survive without her. Unlike her, you won't come back begging for another chance. I also am not sure that OM is completely out of the picture but I am sure some withdrawal is taking place.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The OM is out of the picture. Everyone I talk to says she is DONE with him, that the fog has lifted and she truly sees him, me and herself. She does not like the OM at all. He might think she isnt done, but she is. I just want to make sure the little bast@@@ stays away from my family from now on. Thus, we change the phone numbers, etc. Hopefully, he will get the point. Otherwise, I WILL protect my family.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Have you noticed that she keeps saying I cannot stand the arguing? Pay attention to this. Assure her that you won't argue with her again, EVER. You will simply act on whatever you feel based on her actions and statements. Want an example? When she voiced her justifications for the affair (very common just starting recovery by the way), you should have simply accepted them as her feelings and views. They were. You also know that these feelings change. If you felt that you really didn't want to be with her after hearing this, YOU should have simply gotten up and left. You should have not argued or commented on her views, they were hers and frankly she didn't ask you for yours. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good point here! You are right on the money.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you see what I mean? You cannot change her feelings, you can simply accept them and decide how YOU will react to them. Don't try and change her mind, correct her, or persuade her that she is wrong. If she felt she was wrong she would have changed them. No one willingly stays or is wrong. That doesn't mean they aren't, but that they don't recognize it. She will change if she doesn't get the desired results. But, you arguing or even commenting on her feelings with her express request to do so is a waste of your time, and very damaging to both of you. If on the other hand your reaction (leaving) is not what she wants she might ASK you to comment on how you see things. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This of course is so true. Of course, it is hard to accept this because of fear and being unsure of the future. But you are right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Right now she knows she has screwed up big time. She doesn't want to face it. She doesn't want to admit that for two years, you, and actually more importantly the children have been on the back burner while she did what she pleased: school, party, and have an affair. But, she did those things and she will have to face them. She is more likely to when she feels safe, either at home with you or even in her own apartment. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True. A good friend of ours said that "she doesn't want to swallow the whole ball of 'wrongness'…she would choke on it. She has to slowly come back into it, in order to retain some dignity."

From: RIF90
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But what if she wants to come home, and move forward with this kind of attitude? I mean, I would have to drop some serious boundaries in order to let that happen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok... I must have missed something in your first post... I understood your W's comments to mean that she was worried that things might go back to the way they were... NOT that she wanted to keep the option of starting another A "if things didn't work out". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey RIF90…you are right on! After I settled down, and then we talked, I just realized she was trying to voice her fears, to start leaning on me. JL hits on this above also.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She has gotten rid of OM, and is seeking counseling, which was my two pre-requisites for her coming home. She has met those. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Were these the only boundaries or conditions that you asked of her? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But How can I move forward and allow her to start back in on this marriage knowing she believes this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM, how do you KNOW that she believes this... on this thread alone, there were several different interpretations of what we all thought your W meant... I still think that she is testing you and that she may still be a bit foggy... but I don't really believe that she is asking you for an "out" to start another A if things don't work out. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have found through my conversations this weekend that you are correct! Go to the head of the class RIF90.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now, how can I go back on that? And if I dont, how can I live in a marriage where she believes she did nothing wrong? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So don't go back on your two conditions... she's met them, let her come home... Start rebuilding your M and I think that you'll find that your W will eventually come to see just how much damage inflicted on the both of you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. This is exactly what I did, and am doing. And, my wife will be back home this weekend!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MM, I got six long pages of posts for you to read, from Page 283 to page 289. Trust me, there IS a point. I think you will see it as you read. Pay attention to how expectations affect things, and how words mean different things to different people, and how far apart one's interpretation of someone's words can be from what they wanted to communicate. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Johnh39, thanks for that! That should be mandatory reading for everyone. I EXPECTED certain things to happen, and wasn't prepared for what did happen. I really set myself up for what happened. I should have gone in with no expectations, and let her drive things. And be prepared for any eventaulity.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She said I was running around saying she slept around, but she said that wasn't true. She said "I was done with the marriage...I didn't sleep around...I was in a relationship." She went on to say that she felt that she had done nothing wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She was giving you important information in that sentence, and you totally missed a lot of it. Yes, the part you blew up about was in there - I think. I'm actually not sure though, despite her not being remorseful. You did not explore what she said enough to be sure either, and you did not make it safe for her to be honest. It may well be that you are right, and it may well be that she is not at a point where you can feel safe if she comes home. But, if you had respectfully explored things and determined that you did not feel safe, you could have informed her of that, and that you were very disappointed. As it is, you gave her more reason to feel afraid of going home. And that is a MAJOR issue for her, as she told you to start out. I'm not sure her attitude is not a product of her fear more than her lack of committment - but YOU DON'T KNOW, EITHER. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't even need to comment here…this is EXACTLY right. Once we started talking things through this past weekend, it is strange how what you wrote here is exactly what materialized.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I also want to say that it is not necessarily unsafe to continue in a marriage with an unrepentant (though I admit I would have trouble with it). She said that she felt the relationship was over. If you are both willing to work on things, she will never find herself in that situation again, so you will be safe. Is this the kind of commitment God requires? No. As far as I can tell, your wife is not a believer - and you know what the Bible says about unbelieving spouses, don't you? Do not divorce if they are willing to remain married to you. Who knows if by your witness they might be saved? You take care of MM. Let God take care of her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Harley even states this. In SAA, on page 83, it starts into this exact thing. First things first…stop the love bank bleed, then refill…THEN everything else can be dealt with. My wife is a believer. I believe she was led away by a satanic attack, and a heathen OM. I believe the biggest reason that we are moving her in this weekend is that God did not give up on her, and that he constantly reminded her of who she REALLY is and that she doesn't have to continue the way she fell into.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> About her calling you and hitting you with the SAA stuff. This could be great: an indication of her commitment. It could be awful: an indication of her trying to control you. It could be both at the same time. You need to figure it out. The only way to do that is to really get inside her head (see the recommended posts for more info on that). Plan A is over. You need to let her inside your head, too. Let her know how afraid that statement made you feel. It may be for the best that she not move back, yet. You two don't seem to be ready. The downside of both Plans A and B is that you don't learn what a sustainable relationship is like. Plan A is not sustainable, Plan B is about independence, not interdependence. Marriage is different than either one, but it takes time to learn how, and Plan A and Plan B do not get you there. You BOTH still have a lot to learn. You might not want to hear this, but recovery is when the hard part begins. You stopped LB'ing by detaching and. Now you need to learn how to stop LB'ing when you are not seperated. Anger (that comes out when you LB) usually has it's roots in one of three places: fear, pain and frustration. Her statement made you feel all three, I imagine. But instead of saying something like "W, that statement makes me afraid that if you come home you will leave again, and I cannot subject myself and the kids to that kind of pain, again. I am also really frustrated, because I thought you were ready to make a commitment, and now it sounds to me like you are not." You blew up. Understandable, but not safe for her, and a way to avoid the real issues, for you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think her into SAA is a GREAT thing. She is learning again (she read it last summer, and many of the things she learned have been what has weighed on her as she continued the A). She has even expressed a willingness to start talking to Steve Harley again. It is so good to hear that Plan A or Plan B are over! That means RECOVERY! I thought this day would never come. You are right though…Harley says the first rule in all of this is protection. My wife has started to learn this in SAA, and I even see her making attempts to do this. I have to make sure I do the same.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One more thing. When your communication improves, your relationship frequently seems to get worse, at first. Or actually DOES get worse, at first. So, don't give up over this set-back. There are real issues here that need to be addressed on both sides, but the race is not over. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No it is not. That is why I went back Friday night. And why we are still moving forward. It isnt the battle…it is the war that must be won.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I hear a lot of fear from both you and your wife. She was being honest with you that she was afraid. Afraid that the old feelings about being alone and abandoned will come back. To me, that was a good thing, she is trying to trust you to be honest about her fears. Unfortunately it triggered your fears. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sue with hope, thanks again. Yes, you are exactly right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Are you still military, right? What is the chances of you being sent out? Aren't you planning on retiring soon or getting out soon? Can the military prevent that? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let me see…yes, don't know, yes (in December I am retiring), yes. The military is a BIG problem now. If I get another deployment before I retire in December, I think it may be the last straw. My wife has said that this war right now is scaring her because she doesn't know if she can handle another deployment. We need TIME, and another deployment would rob us of that right when we needed it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You both have a lot of hurdles of the past to get over. It takes time to overcome them. Facing the fears of them, addressing them, and getting past them. Some each of you will have to do alone, and some you can do together (if you both want to). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know she is in counseling, are the two of you in MC? Are you both willing? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are in counseling together (and the kids too). And she has asked that maybe we can begin talking to Steve Harley again. She is rather impressed NOW with what he told her back last summer. She didn't want to believe in addiction, or what Steve was saying about As and OMs…but now she says she sees what he was saying and he was right. When she went to her counseling session on Friday, our counselor had SAA on her desk.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know you have talked to the Harleys in the past, and so has she. At the time, she was not ready. What about now? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is ready.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She kept calling, to me that is a good sign that she still wanted it to work. Maybe I am wrong, but, if she did not love you, she would not care if she hurt you in the future. I hope she has not changed her mind in the light of day. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is how I see it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There will be rough times ahead, the whole trip to recovery will not be all easy going. You both will have to face the fears and pain of the past. Once you get past that, work on it, you will probably a better M than you had before. Anything worth having does not come easy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I hope and pray for.

From: ayslyne

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> OK...I am torn. On the one hand you are totally correct. You are technically not wrong in describing her behavior as that in which a whore would engage. AAAHHH those technicalities. It is another thing to brand the mother of your chldren with a scarlet letter for all the world to see. Is her behavior wrong, immoral, unjust? YES!! Her behavior speaks for itself...it does not need to be elaborated on by you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ayslyne, thanks. I needed that butt kicking. You are right. I really didn't want to say it. I was trying my hardest to get out of there before I LBed but couldn't find my keys. I don't want anyone talking about her in that way, least of all me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So here is my quandary...was she initially upset because your view of her has dropped so low that you consider her a whore?...at some level you do and she knows it. Is she defending her behavior because she doesn't feel you understand what brought her so low...because I believe in her mind she thinks that if she is a whore then you're the SOB that drove her to it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cant argue with this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It has been clear that I am no fan of your wife's behavior but since none of us were there I wonder: did she begin to defend her "relationship" as a protective behavior...to try to save any self respect she might have left? Or do you think she truly thought you would accept this rationale? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As a mutual friend of ours said this weekend, I think she was trying to save face. She couldn't swallow the whole "wrong" pill at one time. She will have to take it a bite at a time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not to justify her actions at all...I think she wanted to test the waters with you. She does not see herself as a whore because plainly whores work for a trade-off. She was not doing that. In her mind she was a lost unloved waif, alone and abandoned...not some whore who couldn't keep her skirt down. OK...blah, blah, fog talk. I know...but you do need to acknowledge that although the physical behavior is the same...the mental baggage is not. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure I can do this exactly. A tradeoff? Sure there was a tradeoff. Maybe it wasn't money, but there was a tradeoff. What was in her mind doesn't mean that it reflected reality. Reality, she was acting like a whore. But, the point to all of this, and all that you and others are saying is, that what was in her mind is what counts here. Perception is reality, and her perception at the time is that she was the abandoned waif. So, as Steve Harley said to me once…do you want to be right, or do you want to be married?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One thing is clear...she cannot view herself as a whore or live with you viewing her that way and continue as your wife...really who could? That being said...she must get to the point of acknowledging the err of her ways as an adult without fear of punishment or name calling. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know she is your wife and she has betrayed you but also she is the mother of your children. The word whore should not equate with her from you for their sakes...to their mother or anyone else. Her behavior speaks for itself...your children do not need their father informing others that their mother is "sleeping around". </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have not been running around saying this. It is just that she has heard this view from me. So has the counselor. So has close mutual friends that we have confided in. This is what she is talking about. That I have this view of what she was doing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you need to call her a whore come here....write it a million times...sing it in the shower...otherwise...SHUT UP. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh…no need to anymore. I have learned a few things this past weekend. If we are to follow Christ, if we are to be more like Him, then we have to forgive like him. That means to forgive my wife like he forgave the woman at the well. Or the woman caught in adultery. So, even if she was acting like a whore, she can no longer be that and be my wife. I have to take her back with the full honor and respect due her as my wife and mother of my kids.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Can I ask you prior to all this...did you call her other names...berate her in other ways? I just wonder because it would ring even truer her desire to test you...to see if any of your old tendencies still exist. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Never.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK very long...bottom line: You need to understand that she did not risk all for a few thrills...as a common whore. She was a wife and a mother who got sad and depressed so she made the worst choices of her life...these choices involved adultery and abandonment...and she is wrong. However just because she is 100% WRONG-and she is...that does not make you right. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand WHY she did what she did. And yes, she was wrong…completely wrong. Of course, I wasn't right in the way I was treating her. But I accept no responsibility in her poor choices to act that way. Sure I was culpable…but not responsible. That being said, my problem with her statements about not doing anything wrong is that I thought she was justifying her actions, justifying acting like a "whore." And there is no justification for it. There just isnt. Look, I know the difference in what she did, and why…and what some woman that might just go out for the thrills of it. If my wife had been the second one, I would have NEVER even considered this reconciliation. NEVER. My understanding of why she did what she did, and my part in it, is the reason I am still here. But that does not equate in her not being wrong, or justifying her acting like a whore and destroying a family and marriage. But, as I said above, I believe she is just trying to hold onto some pride as she swallows the big wrong pill. And I just want this all in the past.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Totally off the subject. I hope you are still State-side...God Bless all our Armed Forces...where ever they may be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, still stateside…and hope I am staying! And yes, I pray that God looks out for those that are over there. Part of me wishes I was there. The "game" is on, and I am sitting on the sidelines. But, I no longer feel that pull like I used to. I have more important things to attend to now. But, until I leave in December, I am still committed to the cause.


Marathonman, thanks for the post. You see, we are all here for each other. As you can see, even with my advice, I still screw up…and my wife is headed home. Hang in there.

I will post part two in a minute.

<small>[ March 25, 2003, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Part II in my responses.

From Lablady:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> First, let me say how sorry I am for you that things have taken a downturn with your W. I know you had some high hopes for progress in your reconciliation and you must be frustrated now. Just remember "2 steps forward, 1 step back", is still progress. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How true, lablady.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I've been lurking on the "Recovery" forum lately, even though I'm nowhere near recovery in my own M. The reason I've been reading the threads over there is that I know IF we ever get a chance at recovery, I have some major issues to deal with regarding forgiveness and "right vs. wrong", and I want to explore these issues now, to learn as much as I can. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am going to try to check out things there also.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm going out on a limb here, but something about the tone of your posts speaks to me. I sense that you are a man for whom the words "honesty, integrity, faithfulness" are more than mere words. You live by those words, every day, in every situation of your life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which is why this has hurt so bad. Because I thought my wife also lived by these same principles.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel the same way, although I am human and make mistakes. I am married to a man who has demonstrated over the years, in many ways, that those words mean less to him than they do to me. For example, he has brought stuff home from work, a chair here, a tool there, and it doesn't bother him. They "owe" it to him, or they "won't miss it". My WH has also had 2 A's prior to this one, and after that D-Day he begged me not to leave, the kids were young, and I stayed. We never dealt with the A's very well (no MB back then). For the past 12 years I have asked him, periodically, "how did you get from 'I know it's wrong' to 'but I'm going to do it anyway"? I never got the answer I was looking for, so the question kept coming up. What I was looking for was "I had the A's because I'm a sorry SOB with questionable morals and I need a complete overhaul in my thinking, starting now". What I got was "I take responsibility for my actions BUT you drove me to it by being inaccessible". The BUT is the sticking point. To me, there is no BUT, my moral code will not allow me to have an A. I'm sure, I've been tested, I ran away from a potential A 20 years ago. Bottom line, I could not live with myself if I had an A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So well said. We are alike in these ways.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So H and I never healed. I kept the pain and anger inside me for all those years. It came out every once in awhile. His "questionable morals" never improved, he never said, "no matter what, I can control myself", and meant it. He had another A, and has been living with OW since 12/31/02. I wanted a man who was as committed to living "right" as I was no matter what. I sense that you want the same kind of wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly! Thought I had her for 8 ½ years. Then she proved me wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Over on the Recovery forum, one quote that keeps replaying in my mind is "do you want 'fair' or do you want a marriage"? Does this make any sense to you, MM? I'm struggling with it, but I know it's the only way to go to recover the M. I personally don't know what I want at this point, but maybe this concept will help you decide what you can live with in your situation. I know you drew your lines in the sand, and technically, your W did what you asked. What you didn't ask her for, but what you seem to want, is a change of her views to be the same as yours, and now you're not so sure you take her back "as is". I wish I could tell you that she will come around to your way of thinking, to stay committed no matter what, but of course no one can tell you that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had thought she had these views. SHE was the one on our wedding day that said there was no such thing as divorce. She is the one that harped on marriage, family, etc throughout our first years. I feel like I was sold something, only to find out later on that she was lying. I married her, and one of the reasons I did was her beliefs on her faith, her marriage, and her family. And now, I see her willing to throw ALL of them out the window for some idiot. So, I thought she was like what you posted above. I thought she had high morals, and believed in doing the right thing no matter what. Now that I know she doesn't (by her actions over the last 20 months), I still question how I will endure with someone that takes vows, their faith, their family, self-respect, etc so lightly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The other posters on this thread have said you need to let her do her own thinking, come to her own conclusions regarding the A and the repercussions of it. I agree. Her feelings are her own, don't discount them. And they may change, as she acknowledges more of the reality you and your children have been living. I guess your compassion toward her is what's needed if you want your M back. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is EXACTLY my hope. That she is just a human being that made a HUGE mistake, and she is now trying to find her way out. And that she does believe in these things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you haven't been reading over at Recovery, I suggest you check it out. (Just don't leave us without you in GQII, though, we'd miss you!)

Thinking of you.
Lablady</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I will stay here for sure. This place has been the best thing in an otherwise terrible year.

From: CantThinkofAName

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't pretend to know your wife or think like her, so I don't know what is going on in her head, but IMHO, she is saying EXACTLY what she is thinking. She is scared. She is being radically honest with you and that is what you want isn't it? Would you rather her NOT say these things to you and come back when she is really feeling this way? Then, if it doesn't work out, you will be blindsided (again). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Despite all this fog talk, the WS is in touch with their feelings better than ya'll think. She knows if things go back to the way they were pre-affair, then she will probably be right back in the same place. She HAS seen the light and doesn't want to go there again. She is scared about hurting you, the kids and herself again. She should be. Mortarman - don't you see - this is EXACTLY the same fear you have. You know how hard it is to carry that burden. She is carrying it now too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, I cannot argue with any of this. It is all true.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like I said, this is my interpretation of what your wife MAY be thinking, but I should tell you that I am a WS in almost this exact frame of mind. Now we have not gone through near the troubles you and Mrs. MM have experienced, but I have those fears nonetheless. We are currently separated, and I know my wife would like to get back together now, but I don't want to until I can work through some issues of my own. I tried it once when I was unsure and it caused more pain than anything else. I may try it again, but for now, I would just like some time to reconnect with my wife before we "recommit".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I pray that you and your wife will rebuild and recommit. I know what you are saying is true. Again, it is hard for a BS to truly understand what the WS has gone through. I mean, I would NEVER have an affair. As lablady said above, I am not built that way. I would never divorce. Even though I have a RIGHT to now, thanks to my wife's actions, I havent. Because I believe in family. So, it is hard for someone like me to understand how someone can sell out EVERYTHING that is important to them for the OP. I understand the addiction scenario. But in order to get addicted, you had to start in the first place. In order to get addicted to cocaine, you have to take the first sniff. It's not that she didn't know better. It's not that she didn't know where she was headed. But, she still did…and then got hooked. You see, I am justified in divorcing my wife…but I havent. She was never justified. Some would even say I would be justified in having my own affair (I do not agree, though). She never had a reason to end up in another man's bed…or him in mine. So, it is hard for me to understand how she could cross that line. I cannot cross it because I could never live with myself if I did. Some things are more important to me than sex, love, companionship, etc. I thought my wife had the same views. It was one of the main reasons I married her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have received some fantastic advice on this thread. JL's 4 points are excellent and have given me some things to ponder also, but just remember to give her time to consider it. I know all BS's expect the "fog" to just lift and everything is hunky-dorey again, but it is just not that simple. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying…really.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MM - keep the lines of communication constantly open and discuss both of your feelings with radical honesty. Many of the things you will discuss will hurt each of you very much. But if you can get through that hurt without LB'ing, then it will make your spouse see that perhaps there could be a better life at home. Just my 2 cents. Best of luck to you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the two cents! Really.

From: Qfwfq

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's another view. Might be wrong. Might have merit. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"That being said...what do I do? Sure, sit here in Plan A and wait for HER to get her act straight (good point, JL). But what if she wants to come home, and move forward with this kind of attitude? I mean, I would have to drop some serious boundaries in order to let that happen." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are a few of us on here that have NOT dropped any serious boundaries (or any humorous either) and have either let our WSs come home or not insisted that they leave (or let them suggest it). Are we losers? No. Do we have the answers to all our problems? No. We must be doing something right, though, because progress continues. My W is happier all the time with me, and we're still in a truly messy situation with rebuilding our house. Is she happy because I'm "great?" Well, no. I am making progress internally, though. So is she. Does she still have attitudes like your W does? Yep, no doubt about that. But if you communicate, if you can SEE her react to daily life, not imagine what she's doing or thinking in your absense, maybe you'll be better able to see her evolve too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I am trying to do. I think my LB the other night, and my major problem, is not trust. It isnt even she had sex. Sure, they are problems…but the biggy is something different. I thought I knew her. I thought she was not capable of this. I'm not. I had fallen in love with her for many reasons, but one of the biggest was that we both had the same outlook on our faith, on marriage, and on family. And then she turns into someone I NEVER knew. So, in order to have her back, I have to hope that the old Mrs. MM returns with her values, or I will have to accept this new value system. My problem is that I cannot accept this new value system, so bereft of morals.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Look, you and she are both reading Harley books. Talk about them! Use the terms. Use POJA and RH. Love her as she is, and watch her grow back to your M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh we are. Even our counselor is using SAA. We are BOTH definitely on the plan now!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B and stuff like it are intended to protect the BS from further hurt by the WS. Is she hurting you to the extent that you feel you need to go back to plan B? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. I just hope that she comes back to her old self in her views. Otherwise, I may be stuck with the mess I stated above.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or can you communicate well enough that you can show a little compassion for each others' pain while you grow and learn. ...and rebuild your M. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">this is what I am trying to do

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember, most therapists say it takes 2 to 5 years to recover from infidelity. And they aren't referring to just the BS, either. Like you probably, I groan when I think I probably have 1-4 more years of this to go, but what else am I going to do?

What are YOU going to do?
-Qfwfq</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All true. I am ready for the long haul. Just questioning on what I will be stuck with putting up with in the end.


From: kily
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is actually a VERY realistic attitude that your formerly WS is showing. Remember, she ran from fear.....yes you have changed, but she has not REALLY been paying attention. She has VALID fears....now is not the time to be "right" it is time to be patient and a friend....being right will not solve the problems...just put up the walls I REALLY think at this point, it's time to talk to Harley. He would suggest a dating period so that you both can test the waters. There are reasons for this.

Be patient....Be honest...Be humble. Take in the data....disregard the emotional reactions...

You both are triggering...and she is only NOW going to start withdrawal. A LOT to deal with when there is nothing guaranteed for either of you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All true. It is good to hear from you because I do know you have been on that side of the fence. Like I said above though, I just hope that this is not her new value system, but just a temporary way point toward getting her life back.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You asked her why she felt fearful of falling back into another A. THen you became ANGRY and judged her based on what you feared. look at what she has been saying all along....Is this consistent with her? She openly stated that she needs to understand why and that she wanted to go to IC to figure it out. She is telling you the same thing NOW. she's not saying it will happen, she is that she is terrified of it happening and that she doesn't want that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is why I went back Friday night…because this is what I want to believe in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mortarman, it is both of your responsibilities to figure out how to A proof your marriage. Stop reacting to triggers and simply start planning and befriending your wife. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am trying…and I think I did a great job since Friday night.


From: johnh39
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One more thing Mortarman - from my perspective, the work you are doing on you needs to include some additional anger management work. I know you are angry. But, your behavior was atrocious, IMO. Remember: "Be angry and sin not". You need to replace the habits you have when you get angry with new ones. It's not like Mrs. MM (current or future) will never do anything to make you angry. You have got to figure out a way to deal with you anger that does not involve abuse. For me, the introspection thing works, for the most part. Lots of people find they have to walk away and come back to a dis-agreement later. I am not an expert on this, so I am not sure what might work for you. You might want to see an expert for some help. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are so right. I actually am in an anger management class. I never had a problem with anger before all of this. It was very hard to get me upset, or to even open my mouth. Now, it is like throwing a match on gasoline. This is one change that I have done that I do not like.

From: HnG
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am kind of in the same boat you are. I am in the Army (HOOAH) stationed overseas and my family is back state side. I was wondering if you could check out my post and see if you can help me out any way doing this long distance. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hooah! I will try to look at your post this evening HnG. Where are you stationed?

From: fonzee
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am a BS also, actually CTOAN is my husband. I wanted to write and say that I agree with my H…you need to be completely honest with each other, knowing that one or both of you may be hurt from time to time while being honest, you also need to feel safe when being honest with each other. YOU need to be consistent with your actions and words. IMHO anyway. If you've told your wife time and time again that you want to be patient and understanding and give her the time she needs to figure this out, then you need to do just that. You can't loose it one night and tell her that she needs to do this or that before you can trust her again or before she can come home. But if that does happen, and you realize it and you're sorry for it, call her and tell her all of that and tell her that you don't want it to happen again and you'll try not to let it happen again. But you also need to tell her your fears and lean on her when there's something bothering you. I had trouble with that for a while…I want to tell him and show him that I love and care for him and I really do feel progress. But I was afraid to tell him what I was afraid of, I didn't want to let him know I had fears or problems, for fear it would put pressure on him. Or I didn't want to bring my fears and problems into the relationship and chance that being the breaking point of our marriage. But once I shared my fears with him I did feel better, even though he couldn't assure me that they would never happen, just sharing with him felt good. And like he said, we need to keep sharing our feelings and fears with each other so we know where the other one is and what's going on in each other's head and heart. Don't know if anything I said helps, but I'm looking at things from the same side as you. I have some pretty amazing friends that are very encouraging to me and this board has helped us both so much. I just wanted to let you know you're being thought of and as you know, there are many here that feel for you and understand what you're doing and are hoping for the best for you, your wife and your marriage.

Fonzee</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks. This is exactly what I did this past weekend. And we had a GREAT weekend…and we are moving her in at the end of the week.

In His arms.

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OK very long...bottom line: You need to understand that she did not risk all for a few thrills...as a common whore. She was a wife and a mother who got sad and depressed so she made the worst choices of her life...these choices involved adultery and abandonment...and she is wrong. However just because she is 100% WRONG-and she is...that does not make you right.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I understand WHY she did what she did. And yes, she was wrong…completely wrong. Of course, I wasn't right in the way I was treating her. But I accept no responsibility in her poor choices to act that way. Sure I was culpable…but not responsible. That being said, my problem with her statements about not doing anything wrong is that I thought she was justifying her actions, justifying acting like a "whore." And there is no justification for it. There just isnt. Look, I know the difference in what she did, and why…and what some woman that might just go out for the thrills of it. If my wife had been the second one, I would have NEVER even considered this reconciliation. NEVER. My understanding of why she did what she did, and my part in it, is the reason I am still here. But that does not equate in her not being wrong, or justifying her acting like a whore and destroying a family and marriage. But, as I said above, I believe she is just trying to hold onto some pride as she swallows the big wrong pill. And I just want this all in the past.

*********

As to all of the above...I know you would not take her back if she were just a thrill seeker. I know that...but who am I...NOT YOUR WIFE. You do not have to explain it to me. But she needs to know that, she needs it explained to her.
Here is the deal...although I am a stranger I know more about how you are dealing with this situation, what you have learned, how you cope, than your own wife. She still doesn't know the Mortarman we all know. She anticipated what your thought process might be and made a statement. Granted we know you differently, she has spent a lifetime with you but you have changed, grown and learned...when she has just snapped back to a limited reality. Do not forget she is not where you are.

Sadly we BS carry a heavy load and do not get to unload it just because the WS re-engages in the marriage.

WS find it earthshattering when they finally realize the gravity of their behavior. I don't disagree that her behavior is that of a whore-ish nature but not in her mind...not yet. As you said she cannot swallow the whole wrong pill at once. And I did not mean to imply that you were in any way responsible for her actions...NEVER...before, during, or after this whole mess. You are responsible for you as is she responsible for herself.

I just encourage you to be ready for the devestation guilt can bring the WS. Sometimes it is hard for the BS to empathize with the overwhelming pain the WS experiences when they finally get it. She will eventually face those feelings and regard herself in a very low manner. It is part of the process. It will be even harder to convince her you do not consider her a whore when you have labled her that in the past even if it is a techinically justified statement in the heat of an argument.

to her:
behavior=lost waif

to you:
behavior=whore

Same behavior different interpretation...and ofcourse I am with your interpretation but the fact that you and I agree is irrelevant. Why? Once again because I am not your wife, none of us are. I/We here at MB know where you are coming from I also know where my husband was-how he went from justification to devestation.It is a rough ride. As a BS you imagine the day that your WS comes to you truly remorseful...owning all that they have done. Then it comes and it is so sad because here is this person you love and that you know has the capabilities to be a wonderful spouse and they are horrified by what they have done. (It is like a drunk driver waking up to running down a kindergarten class)

...until she can interpret her behavior differently ramming your "non-fog" view down her throat will only build more walls.

That all being said...SHE IS COMING HOME!! Thank God!!

ayslyne

Asylyne,

Thanks. I knew what you were talking about. And I am trying to do this through my own issues.

I just got a call from my wife. Her next door neighbor's sister wants to take my wife's apartment on April 1st. My wife said to me, "You had better not back out now, because I have very few options if you do." She was referring to the fact that if I backed out now, she would HAVE to go to OM's.

Anyway, with the apartment now filled, SHE IS COMING HOME! now we will have to do the tough part.

In His arms.

<small>[ March 25, 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

MM:

"JL?as usual, you are the voice of reason."

What are we, then? Chopped liver? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just Kidding. Hey! Maybe that'll be my next login name! Whataya think?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
-ol' Qfwfq

MM:

I think you're doing fine, overall. I think that once you get past your individual fears, life will be heaven on Earth.

"I am ready for the long haul. Just questioning on what I will be stuck with putting up with in the end."

Let go of this! It will ruin your life!

-ol' Qfwfq

Hi MM,

I'm glad you two have made it this far. Stay strong and try to work together towards recovery. I'd like to hear that you two make it.

MM,

I read your posts and I am happy that things are going as they should. I found a few of your comments interesting. One of them struck me so I have quoted it </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I am trying to do. I think my LB the other night, and my major problem, is not trust. It isnt even she had sex. Sure, they are problems…but the biggy is something different. I thought I knew her. I thought she was not capable of this. I'm not. I had fallen in love with her for many reasons, but one of the biggest was that we both had the same outlook on our faith, on marriage, and on family. And then she turns into someone I NEVER knew. So, in order to have her back, I have to hope that the old Mrs. MM returns with her values, or I will have to accept this new value system. My problem is that I cannot accept this new value system, so bereft of morals.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM, I would like to point out something. Something very sad actually. Your value system is a minority point of view. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> It really is. I know where you get it. I also know as someone in the military you are used to making decisions: "Is this something I am willing to die for?" And have that NOT be an overstatement.

Do the words: "I won't Lie, Cheat, or Steal, nor tolerate those that do." Mean anything to you? I think they do. You were trained to operate on those beliefs and they dovetail nicely with your religious beliefs.

You firmly believe that you would never cheat on your W. I think you would have to go far far down the road to do so. As you said, there are things more important than sex. Althought "Q" is having a hard time remembering what they are. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My point, your profession, your training, your willingness to get the job done at all costs, make your view of things different than most. Yup, even military men cheat, and lie, BUT more have a very strict and rigid understanding of their role, their job, and their duty.

My point is that your W doesn't have this. She will never completely have this because her world is not your world. It is not reinforced daily like it is in your world. So please in judging her actions remember that she knows she failed herself, but she is not and has not been in the environment that you have.

I believe it is Robert E Lee, that stated "Honor is the most sublime word in the English language." Most civilian people would not really know what he is talking about, but I suspect you do.

So I am not saying to weaken your moral code. I am saying appreciate that she had it harder because she was NOT in an environment where a moral code was even considered. She knows right from wrong, she knew what she was doing was wrong, her treatment of the children (sending them off) was way out of character for her. She got way off the path, but there really was no one that was trying to get her back on the path. You were overseas, her friends apparently don't have a real strong back bone for telling her what a mistake she was making.

I am saying this not to weaken your values, but to suggest that hers failed her, BUT she can develop them now, and perhaps become much stronger. There is no believer as staunch as the converted MM. Remember that.

By the way, why would she even think that you would back out now? Doesn't she know you are a man who pushes through to do the right thing? Keep doing that MM.

God Bless,

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM:

"JL? as usual, you are the voice of reason."

What are we, then? Chopped liver?

Just Kidding. Hey! Maybe that'll be my next login name! Whataya think?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Chopped liver? Naaahhh! I hate liver. I do like the login name though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> MM:

I think you're doing fine, overall. I think that once you get past your individual fears, life will be heaven on Earth.

"I am ready for the long haul. Just questioning on what I will be stuck with putting up with in the end."

Let go of this! It will ruin your life!

-ol' Qfwfq</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Q!! The battle still rages, although I can see the home team winning!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hi MM,

I'm glad you two have made it this far. Stay strong and try to work together towards recovery. I'd like to hear that you two make it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Sue! It looks good now.

JL, I guess I will make Q envious because you will get more play here!

I am glad that you spelled this out the way you did. You are right. I have found that my military background puts me in a minority when it comes to handling things in the civilian world. Most professional soldiers have problems adjusting to the lower set of moral and ethical standards that are prevalent in the civilian sector. My wife saying &#8220;Why don&#8217;t you divorce like normal people&#8221; was just one in the many of things that just incensed me. I really believe that most people who have not been in the military, do not fully understand &#8220;Duty, honor, country.&#8221;

You want to know something? The biggest reason I wanted to &#8220;pound&#8221; the OM wasn&#8217;t because he was sleeping with my wife. He didn&#8217;t rape her, so it was her responsibility. The biggest reason is that I have NO respect for the OM. He has absolutely no honor, no character&#8230;no moral or ethical standards. He doesn&#8217;t even care for the woman he supposes to love&#8230;my wife. He is selfish, and would rather her lose everything in order for him to get what he wants.

A guy like this would never make it in the military&#8230;his fellow soldiers would eat him alive. There are guys and gals dying in Iraq while we sit here. There are POWs over there, being raped and beaten. I spent 7 months right after 9/11 in Bosnia busting my hump in the war on terrorism. But in the meantime, back here in the land of McDonalds, there are guys like the OM, eating my food, sleeping in my bed, driving my car&#8230;and basically, as Jack Nicholson said in &#8220;A Few Good Men,&#8221; living under the blanket of freedom that I provide. Someone tell me I should bleed one tear for this guy. I have more respect for those poor, dumb Iraqi soldiers we are blowing up, then I have for the OM.

This gets me back to my wife. She showed me&#8230;she showed me when we dated, that she believed in these things. For most of my marriage, she continued to do so. And then&#8230;I left for Bosnia and keep back to someone I didn&#8217;t know. Someone that CHOSE a guy like the OM over me. Someone that chose to be like the OM. Someone that lost complete respect in herself, and left herself open to public ridicule. Someone that allowed my children to learn that being like the world is okay.

JL, you are probably right. I probably am in the minority. Maybe that is why I was 29 when I got married. Because it took me forever to find a woman that had the same morals, convictions, and beliefs that I did. Or so I thought.

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This gets me back to my wife. She showed me…she showed me when we dated, that she believed in these things. For most of my marriage, she continued to do so. And then…I left for Bosnia and keep back to someone I didn’t know. Someone that CHOSE a guy like the OM over me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM - can you imagine what might cause someone to change so much? More importantly, can you imagine how PAINFUL it is to make those changes - and to top it off, find that you were right the first time, and the pain of change only led to even more pain for yourself and those you loved and who loved you. I'll bet you can't, right now. But, it is why I would NEVER change places with my FWW - as bad as the pain of betrayal is, I don't know how I could live with myself doing what she did. I am FAR, FAR from perfect - but I would never want to be in a place where I could be that spiritually twisted. I am not sure tone of voice is coming through, here - I say this with no disrespect, no pity, no disgust, no condemnation - just...compassion - and a small modicum of empathy, because our marriage was so bad for so long that I was headed that direction, too.

MortarMan since you are a Christian I will ask you to ponder that ALL of us have betrayed God at one time and yet he has seen fit to forgive us. If God can forgive us, who are we not to do the same? So when you think about your W's betrayal think about how God has forgiven ALL of us for our betrayals to Him, including you.

Mortarman,
I'm going to throw you a bone to chew on for a while. You have said many times over that you were basically a mess for quite some time in the begining (lost, hurt, "space case", etc.). How long did you stay in that state of limbo before you began to dig yourself out? Once you started digging yourself out of the pit of dispair and self pity how long before you got to the point that you are today?

The point I'm trying to make is that your wife is JUST BEGINNING to dig herself out of the pit that she is in. It will take time for her views to change, for her to see things the "real way" and not through the fog.

JMHO but I think there is more similarity between the WS and BS than most realize or admit. Both are consumed by fog, just different types of fog. You pushed your way out of your fog and your personality, thought process, attitude and beliefs either changed or were reinforced. Your wife is just now beginning that journey, and it may take her time for those changes to take effect.

I'm obviously not speaking from experience (unfortunately) but just jotting down some things that I've noticed from reading others posts.

Thanks for the responses guys and gals. I don't want you to get the idea that I am being combative here. Not at all. I am just trying now to work on things in ME that I had to put on hold while I fought Plan A and Plan B. that being said, let me respond to your posts.


From: johnh39 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

This gets me back to my wife. She showed me…she showed me when we dated, that she believed in these things. For most of my marriage, she continued to do so. And then…I left for Bosnia and keep back to someone I didn't know. Someone that CHOSE a guy like the OM over me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM - can you imagine what might cause someone to change so much? More importantly, can you imagine how PAINFUL it is to make those changes - and to top it off, find that you were right the first time, and the pain of change only led to even more pain for yourself and those you loved and who loved you. I'll bet you can't, right now. But, it is why I would NEVER change places with my FWW - as bad as the pain of betrayal is, I don't know how I could live with myself doing what she did. I am FAR, FAR from perfect - but I would never want to be in a place where I could be that spiritually twisted. I am not sure tone of voice is coming through, here - I say this with no disrespect, no pity, no disgust, no condemnation - just...compassion - and a small modicum of empathy, because our marriage was so bad for so long that I was headed that direction, too. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, I agree here John. I cannot imagine what she might be going through now that she has come out of the fog it is one of the reasons I am coming here to discuss this, rather than with her right now. I am trying not to add to her pain that she must already be feeling. And there is no sense throwing my issues on her until I have a good idea how I REALLY feel. That being said, I too had almost reached the point, right before I left for Bosnia, that I had considered leaving (divorce). But, I only considered it. In the end, it was the value system I have had all my life, that JL talked about above, that kept me from walking, and kept me trying to work on our marriage. Sure, I have made mistakes. HUGE ones!! But the point is that I always knew what was right, and I have always tried to make amends.

In my wife's case, she comes to me last Friday and says that she doesn't believe she did anything wrong. Now, if this was just meant as a way for her to search me out, or for her to save face as she swallows the "wrong" pill, then I can understand. That would mean that eventually, once she is able to work through all of this, she will get back to the values, morals and ethics that she showed me for most of our marriage.

But what if she has changed. What if she doesn't believe in "forsaking all others, until death do us part." Instead, she maybe she now believes there is nothing wrong with "until debt do us part" Or something like that. Unlike right now, where I am legally, morally, spiritually, etc justified to leave and never look back, once I have her home and we re-engage our marriage, I will not have that opportunity again. That is unless she does this same thing again. But, if this is going to be her permanent attitude, then how can I believe her when we say our vows again (we are going to have another ceremony and re-state our vows)? I mean, she said hers almost 10 years ago…and come to find out, she didn't mean it. Or if she did, then this was a horrible mistake by her.

If it was a mistake by a fragile human, I can live with that…I can forgive that. I can even move past that. But if she has changed so much over this that she believes in divorce now, that there are reasons to divorce outside of immorality, then I don't see how I can get past any of this.


From: ToMuchCoffeeMan
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MortarMan since you are a Christian I will ask you to ponder that ALL of us have betrayed God at one time and yet he has seen fit to forgive us. If God can forgive us, who are we not to do the same? So when you think about your W's betrayal think about how God has forgiven ALL of us for our betrayals to Him, including you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Coffeeman, this is so true. And this is exactly what I am trying to do. But I am still not seeing repentance. See my post above to John. I can, and have forgiven. My problem now is living with a woman that possibly believes that what she did wasn't wrong.



From: TM94
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mortarman,
I'm going to throw you a bone to chew on for a while. You have said many times over that you were basically a mess for quite some time in the beginning (lost, hurt, "space case", etc.). How long did you stay in that state of limbo before you began to dig yourself out? Once you started digging yourself out of the pit of despair and self pity how long before you got to the point that you are today?

The point I'm trying to make is that your wife is JUST BEGINNING to dig herself out of the pit that she is in. It will take time for her views to change, for her to see things the "real way" and not through the fog.

JMHO but I think there is more similarity between the WS and BS than most realize or admit. Both are consumed by fog, just different types of fog. You pushed your way out of your fog and your personality, thought process, attitude and beliefs either changed or were reinforced. Your wife is just now beginning that journey, and it may take her time for those changes to take effect. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TM94, this is how I am trying to think. And I hope you are right about her. But what if this is a permanent change? What if she does believe that she did nothing wrong? Can I accept that? Can I live with that?

In His arms.

<small>[ March 26, 2003, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

Ah MM,

You are getting to the nugget of all of this. Your W has changed, and my bet is she will change again. Your description of her fit to a Tee while she was in the affair. She is now changing again, she is seeing the error of her choices, BUT she is NOT totally changed and in love with you. She is frightened.

So yes you are right, she isn't the woman you married, you are not the man she married. She is changing and she will change, from where she has been all changes will be good. I believe that she will not only change into a stronger more mature woman, and even better mother, I think she will become a better W or at least want to IF you let her. This stuff takes time MM. The caterpillar is changing into a butterfly before your eyes.

But, also look at the pluses here. Your children are going to remember this year for the rest of their lives. They will remember that Mommy left them, but she will be back. But my bet is that this is the year that remember as the year they learned about their Dad. They learned that if all else fails Dad will take care of them, that he really loves them. 20,30 years from now they will remember you for this year if for no other. You were given an opportunity, and you took it and made the best of it.

Your W now has an opportunity, let her take it and make the best of it. Just as your kids didn't just sit back and even behave perfectly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , you may not either. But, your W needs this opportunity.

Frankly, the best revenge you could extract from your W and even OM is to live your life well, and love deeply. She will know what she almost lost. Whick brings me to something that I see posted on this site often by WS. This is almost a direct quote from quite a few: "I cannot believe I almost through away, my spouse for the OP."

MM, realize your W is changing and as she comes home and she sees life in your home, sees you doing your best, the kids, etc. She will continue to change. Have faith in that.

One final observation. It seems your W doesn't handle pressure and fear well. It was her fears that drove this, some you instilled with your behavior before the A. Some instilled when you left for Bosnia. Some instilled by her affair and abandoning her family and children.

As you two get closer, make sure to talk to her about her fears. See if you can help her handle them.

Finally, do remember that she hasn't had the training you have. Even with the training people fail morally and spiritually. We've an example of this with the 101st. We have had many examples here on this board with affairs by military personnel. Failure doesn't mean you cannot learn from it, and improve.

I know you feel afraid that you have the high ground and you will be giving it up. But, what you don't realize is for your children, your family, and yes even your W, you won't have given it up at all.

In fact this may be a problem you will have to address. Not just the obvious of not throwing her affair in her face stuff, but her guilt and sense that she can never be equal with you again. More than a few WS's have expressed that fear and feeling. You must make sure she knows that you do want her by your side, and not two steps behind and on the left.

It all takes time MM. Relax do your best and let time and patience guide you here.

God Bless,

JL

MortarMan don't become obsessed with the 'what if's' for they will surely drive you to argue and love bust her. Her actions will speak much more than all the words that come out of her mouth. But you need to maintain an environment where she will feel safe to open up to you and confide in you, her H and BF, all her feelings (even the ugly ones).

Enjoy your life and your loved ones MortarMan, because just like the individuals that have gotten the death penalty, we too are on death row except we don't know when death will come for us.

JL & Coffeeman,

I know you are both right. And I will make sure she doesnt see this side of me. I have often been accused of keeping people to the same standards that I demand of myself. The problem is that my demands on myself are way to high!

The example of that idiot in the 101st was perfect. Even with the right training, many of us fail. But in that guys case, I believe there was evil involved. I dont want to think my wife believes what she said last Friday. I want to believe that she is just in a very bad spot created by her mistakes, and she is trying to get out of it.

You are both right. And the more I show her a safe place with me in our home, the more she will be able to settle down and get herself back.but an improved self due to what we have gone thru.

I think this is the reason the Harley's say that the marriage will be stroner when we get through this. Because we still have Mr and Mrs Mortarman. but they are now improved due to the hell we went through. I just wish we would have found a better way to be new and improved. But, I suspect everyone here feels the exact same way!

In His arms.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just wish we would have found a better way to be new and improved. But, I suspect everyone here feels the exact same way!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Amen.

Hi MM,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I am still not seeing repentance. See my post above to John. I can, and have forgiven. My problem now is living with a woman that possibly believes that what she did wasn't wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">MM... let me ask you a question... what would repentance from your W look like? What are you expecting? I still haven't seen all of the things that I thought that I should see in my FWW as far as repentance goes... yet I have a sense of peace that she is truly repentant. My point is this... if YOU try to define how your wife should show her repentance, then you will most surely be dissappointed.

I had the SAME EXACT fears that you have. STOP asking "What If" questions. She is learning to trust you again... just as you are learning to trust her. It's so easy to think "Hey, I'm the BS here... my WS should be be doing/saying ____ if they were truely sorry..." You need to push thoughts like this out of your mind. Focus on the ACTIONS of your W. She's already demonstrated several actions (ending contact with OM & agreeing to counseling). Celebrate these actions and take them as the first "steps" of her repentance.

As you reconnect with each other and learn to trust each other again, I think that you'll start seeing more repentant actions from your W...

Semper Fi,
RIF90

Actions speaks louder than words.