Space,

You are so awesome in your growth, I applaud you and your love for her.. .funny, my growth is also happening... I am returning to the former sweet honey... the girl who could love, and let go...

It is so hard to let go of an unfaithful, lying spouse... ok, sorry if I sound rude, I don't mean to... it is better when they become honest... although some WS don't ever ... at least in this 2 years, become honest...

So are we going to have a lunch or even and evening MB night out, starting to think that might be fun in Houston...??

Will post on that right now too.

I applaud you, and your strength. Now she, ws, can see what it is like without you. If she doesn't like it so much, who knows?/// about the future?

Anyway, we must all have that Self Respect we deserve.

You are a great guy, and I love what I see. Your kids are awesome and cool! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> might I add good looking!

You have my support in what you want for YOUR LIFE!!!

Hugs, Honey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Qfwfq:
<strong>Okay, the Big Question is: Who gets SC's training wheels? ...I got dibs!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2fwfq</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Warning! They are VERY worn! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> For Sale or Donation;
Worn, high mileage relationship-breakdown survival training wheels,
As-is, no warranty, suitability for intended use is not warranted or implied. $1.00 OBO.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ROTFLOL!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I went to a "required" course this morning called "Children COPE". It's for divorcing parents (judge won't issue a final decree until you go) and teaches how to help children cope with divorce.

Pretty good content, I must say, although nothing that logic doesn't dictate or things we haven't discussed extensively here.

Out of about 60-70 people there, there were only 4-5 couples (only the petitioner is REQUIRED to attend), the rest were individuals, like me.

What did strike me is this; the VAST majority of people there are still in one of the "upper" levels of "grieving" (Denial, Anger, etc.) and very few were at "Acceptance". Which indicates to me that many people just don't put much work into trying to save it, and just opt for the quick out of divorce. Or worse, use divorce as vengeance.
The second thing is that almost all of them are still very, very angry! And of course that's why kids are so often plunged into these crazy situations where they become pawns in the chess game being played out by their parents, and where their needs become secondary to the desire for revenge from one or another.

Which to me is probably THE single most important reason to have reached acceptance, and having dicovered the unconditional side of my love for my wife.

I know my kids, my wife, and I will not face most of the issues people there were discussing. We can collaborate, negotiate, and in general do what's best for the kids without all that emotion and anger getting the best of us.

Reason alone to pursue this within ourselves until we find it before making the divorce decision. And more than adequate justification for the pursuit of unconditional love. If we stay at the conditional level, we'll always have the justification of saying "he didn't do this for me, so why should I do that for him!?", which invariably ends up translating into some sort of negative for the kids. Not to mention to ourselves...as we can always remain "victims" if we only see that side of things.

<small>[ April 26, 2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Geez, many things to talk about. First things first.

BlindSided's post on 2Long's thread really struck a chord with me, because he very clearly described the EXACT place the BS (or WS as the case may be) needs to be at in order to either save the marriage, or divorce in peace. In either case, reaching this state allows the decisions to be made with logic and thought, and not in anger or from a victim posture. Very much, I feel, the position I reached way before proceeding with the divorce. I'd be very interested to hear what BlindSided has to say about "forgiveness" within his process...
Here's the link to that very, very valuable post:
Blind Sided's Post

Also in that thread, Hope4Future made two posts which (unfortunately? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) got me to thinking...these are posts related to the process she (as a WS) made before reconciling...so naturally, as I face the final days before my DV becomes final, I wonder whether in my case DV might have the same or a similar effect on my W...what then?
Here are the posts:
Hope4Future 1
Hope4Future 2

And speaking of the DV, I'm in a quandary with my attorney. Everything was worked out and paid for, I reached an agreement with my wife regarding everything (house, kids, support, property, etc.) and sent it to my attorney to "write up" for our signature.
Well, she's told me twice already that it was ready and would be put in the mail "today", but this has happened twice, and it's been over 3 weeks and it's still not here! Now she's not returning my calls, either...so what to do? any ideas? Any recourse anyone knows of? (heck, my W might change her mind while all this is going on! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

I don't know why, but I think your wife is going to "feel as if" this divorce finality is a major SHOCK .... it's going to hit her "as if" it came without warning.

Actually, when I re-read that paragraph .... I DO know why I think thus.

We gave our son warnings. Clear messages (in English) of absolute boundaries. Where he could NOT step over the line, and what his consequences would be if he did. He did. We did what we said we would do. The consequences were applied as promised. And yet, he was "very surprised" he ended up where he did. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Even after being warned by a series of stop signs, blinking warning lights, and his teachers waving and shouting "danger ahead" .... our son drove straight into a brick wall of consequences and he says, "How did I get here?"

Is this the school of hard knocks?

Pep

Spacecase,

I'm very sorry that this is the path that your marriage took. However, you continue to handle things with grace, class, and love: your kids (and your wife) are lucky to have you.

Good luck with this, as the process continues.

2ble post

<small>[ May 08, 2003, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

Pepper:

Hm... ...Similar obviously to dealing with a broken M or a WS.

I guess, for me, in light of SC's, yours, and Blind Sided's posts to my thread, I must not quite be properly prepared to do what SC is doing. Even though it's been 15 months since D-day.

I'd be one of those people in the class still angry at what's happening, at this point. I need to get rid of all the anger.

-2long

2L;

You are exactly where you were meant to be. No more, no less. It's progress to realize that you still have anger; that's the first step to removing it from your life.

Remember all we've talked about "observing oneself"? same thing. Before, the anger was just the "normal" reaction and guided your actions, feelings, words. Now you're "observing" the anger, and seeing that IT is coming up, it is the one "causing" you to feel this or that. That's good!

Now you have the chance to address it. To observe it, feel it, identify it, dissect it, and get rid of it! Work on that. What causes the anger? Why?
What does the "event" that "causes" the anger remind you of? What sore spot does it touch? Where did that sore spot come from? Is it real, or is it victimhood? Am I going to let "it" control me, make decisions for me, act for me?
If not, then you can release it, liberate your real self from the control of that "anger"...

LMK how this exercise goes? What do you discover?
What happens when you dissect it like this?

You are a perfect being, doing the best you can with what you have, and that is as it should be!

SC

I feel deeply honored that my posting to 2L was so well received and meaningful to you. Coming from such a well-seasoned MB'er, that means a lot to me.

I look back on the last 14+ months and I can't believe where I have come to be right now, and where I continue to go from here on in. As far as forgiveness goes, here is my post from Jan. 13th 2003 when I finally spoke the words of forgiveness to my W (and I do believe it must be said):

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=022081

You want to hear something really radical? I am actually contemplating sending the OM a very brief and simply stated note of forgiveness. Even though I know it does not burden his conscious about the A, the act of forgiveness is more for me than for him. I have no idea how he will receive it (used to be a pretty good friend) and I have no idea what impact over all it may make on him in his lessons in life, but I am starting to feel like I am ready to do this and in doing so purge one more ugly piece of angry resentment out of me and place it in my past. Your thoughts?

SC: I am so sorry for your situation but I am also damn proud of how you have found the strength and wisdom, through the pain, to handle it in such a dignified and honorable way. Our true character is not tested in the best of times, it is tested and revealed in the worst of times, and you my friend, are valiantly embracing the worst situational outcome and are doing all that you can to make the best of it for yourself and your family. Your children will look back on this time in their lives with gratitude and love for the way you are conducting yourself. There's no avoiding the pain, it will hurt everyone, but in the long-term what you are laying down today will payoff in some way in the future. In the meantime, I pray for your continued strength and healing. Remember to take the mud you receive today and turn it into a clay that you can shape with love and care into something worthy to behold tomorrow! God Bless. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

You brought tears to my eyes, BS. (Geez, I HATE calling you BS <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> )

I thank you for the praise inherent in calling me a "Seasoned MBer" and the pride you feel for my words. My sincere thanks. However, wisdom, knowledge and the internal fortitude to reach what you have reached is commendable and makes you just as seasoned and valuable a member of this forum. Especially because of the eloquence and sincerity with which you expressed it. I believe that in time those words you posted to 2L will be a pillar of strength for many current and future visitors.

Forgiveness. Indeed, forgiveness is a gift we give ourselves. Although we may have been taught otherwise, and some versions of forgiveness traditional in our society imply that the forgiver has given the forgiven a great gift at his expense.
The poison of keeping anger, hurt, and frustration inside of us, and the victim mentality breeded by our retention of this "justified" anger is the very worst thing we can do to ourselves. It keeps our ego happy and in control, while not allowing us to really see ourselves as we are, identify our failures and deficiencies, and to do the hard work of correcting them. Thus, it is now abundantly clear to me, that by far, by very, very far, we hurt ourselves much more than the unforgiven by keeping this venom inside of us.
When we forgive, when we rationally and with a clear mind free of ego forgive, we award ourselves with the greatest gift in the world: we begin to forgive ourselves, we see we are indeed divine beings, and we can begin to work the magic of self-analysis and improvement. By freeing our minds of the "excuse" that someone has done somthing to us, we are free to soar and touch the very finest part of us. And once we do that, there is nothing that cannot be conquered, there is nothing that cannot be overcome. Because when we find it, we find that our essence is love, and our lives are love, and the world is love. And with love, real love, there are no heights that cannot be attained.

I am a true believer of forgiveness. Forgiveness started freeing me of the ego-control under which I lived most of my life, it allowed me to stop being a victim, and has allowed me to become what I have become. It is a painful process, one that our ego fights to the death, one that leaves us drained and spent. One that fills us with regret, shame, and worse things, but when we get through it, we are faced with the most wonderful vision of who we are. Our true, real essence. And that is a beautiful thing! Only then can we really feel what love is, only then can we truly project our true love for ourselves and all of those around us.

By all means! Forgive! And be free!

Wow! on BB's suggestion, I threatened my attorney yesterday via voice mail that if she didn't get me my documents by 5PM today, I'd file a complaint with the Texas State Bar...well, 3PM today...there they were! In my email! LOL!!! (Thanks, BB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

But NOW I have the difficult convergence of events...it's Mother's Day on Sunday...so I don't think I'll have D sign anything until after the weekend, right? That would be downright...nasty. Dontcha' think?

PS; OK H2Y, which one is YOUR thread? I mean the one about YOU!?

<small>[ May 09, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

Update;
I'd decided not to ruin Mother's day weekend by delivering the divorce documents to D, so I waited until yesterday evening to do so. At this point it's her copies to read, the "originals" to sign should be here in a day or two.
Obviously she wasn't excited at this, and just took them, said nothing except "OK, I'll read them".
It seems to me that as each of these "steps" actually takes place, she gets angry/hurt/distant, but I'm trying not to let that bring me down, or to retaliate by acting the same, although I admit sometimes I do. (What a struggle! My ego says "F*** her!, she deserves this!" and my conscience says, "No, be patient, she knows not what she does..." or some such thing...it's a juggling act for sure: an internal one!
Last night she was distant, I didn't even get a peck on the cheek when she went to bed, so this morning I was careful not to upset that, although she did give me a "good morning" peck, and kissed me goodbye when she was leaving...
I suspect I know why she still sees all of this acting sweet and nice as an "act": it's the same thing she did for a long time (years?). Putting on the "happy-home" face while all this stuff was going on with the OM...I guess she figures I'm doing something similar...after all, she's convinced herself that I'm a jerk, and it's probably hard for her ego to let that go...
It's likely to get interesting...

<small>[ May 13, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

SC:

I'm reading a lot about the ego in "The Power of Now" right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . I don't know if this is the right place to post this, versus in my own thread, but here goes. Read or ignore as you see fit.

You've quoted pieces of this before, but I don't think this one. I find this helpful to me, in understanding my and my W's "thinking" over recent years:

"Once the pain-body has taken you over, you want more pain. you beome a victim or a perpetrator. You want to inflict pain, or you want to suffer pain, or both. There isn't really much difference betwen the two. You are not conscious of this, of course, and will vehemently claim that you do not want pain. But look closely and you will find that your thinking and behavior are designe to keep the pain going, for yourself and others. If you were truly conscious of it, the pattern would dissolve, for to want more pain is insanity, and nobody is consciously insane."

I find a lot of truth in my own life in what Tolle is saying here. My W is always complaining that "life sucks" and harps on the terrible things that her employees and all other aquaintences do to her and one another all the time. Very little talk about good things that people do. I tend to fall into this trap myself, though I am certainly more aware of it now and can work to prevent it from "taking me over". I think that the need to create a partitioned life to support an affair stems from this need for the "pain-body" to keep itself hidden from the light of day. If WSs were to truly face the consequences of their actions, they'd have to acknowledge that they've been subservient to their "want to suffer pain" for all these years (in my W's case, at least). I haven't been able to make headway in dealing with this in my W precisely because I have had my own "pain-body" to overcome at the same time.

I hope this helps you somewhat. Your thread has been enlightening to me.
-2long

Very good quote, 2L. Thanks!

It's important to be reminded over and over again. As we are, we learn to be more aware of these thoughts in ourselves, and the more aware we are, the less we do it. Over time, THAT becomes the normal behavior, rather than the previous, destructive one.

Namaste!

Another thing to keep in mind -
Pain doesn't end when one event is over with.(D)

The reason these things we learn are so important is that we will be using them all our lives. This enables us to deal with the "storms" of life in a much more satisfying manner whenever, and wherever they come to us.

Spacecase, I admire your growth, and you will find when you get a handle on one thing, there is another waiting for you to work on. It does feel good though to grow, even if it seems never ending.

SS

((((((Spacecase)))))))))

She's losing the best thing that ever happened in her life. I feel sorry for her when she realizes it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Pain ends when you die .... or, so I've been told! LOL

How's that for a cheery note? A pain-free existance is a myth. Pain teaches us some pretty important lessons.

Pep with a face wound <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> (in less pain today, thank-you-very-much)

NerlyCrzy; my, I'm sorry, probably this old hard disk between my ears not functioning the way it used to...but I don't remember you...thank you, though. I appreciate the response!

Pepita! What's wrong? "face wound"??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> hope you're ok! Love you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ooops! almost missed your post, SS! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Indeed; the pain does not end, especially with DV/Separation...the "could'a should'a, would'a" will no doubt make their appearance, together with "Regret, Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt", especially towards ourselves and perhaps how we "failed" at recovering...but, these too are lessons we must learn, and surpassing them will be the next challenge.

There's never the "definitive solution" to anything; just new challenges and new rewards.
Namaste!