"rocking the boat"

There are times to "rock the boat" and there are times to "roll with the punches".

If you only employ one of these techniques throughout your marriage, there is an imbalance.

Rock when you need to.

Roll when you need to.

You can tell the difference.

Neither is LBing ... if you are honest, kind, and true to yourself.

My biggest BEEF with you, dearie, is the times you have not been true to yourself. (Past tense, by the way)

You are making amazing progress.

Keep you balance.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Thanks Pep.

I won't forget what FEAR stands for, and what it can do to stall progress.

-2long

2Long,
Do you feel like you are finding your way OK? Even though the night is dark and storms rage?

Is your foul weather gear in better shape, and does your light have fresh batteries?
Weekends are sometimes long.

SS

SS:

I THINK so... But it is a long weekend, devoted to mother types and all that, and I'm helping her with her report this weekend. She got frustrated with all the delays and with the pressure from the boss units for her to turn in SOMETHING, so she's going to semifinalize it this weekend, and I offered to help her.

I want this damned report done more than anybody alive, though others may differ. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I don't plan to avoid sensitive subjects, because that does neither of us any good, and so I'm a bit apprehensive because we'll be dealing with one of the "sensitive subjects" while working on the damned report.

It's downright purdy outside right now, and looks like it will be over the weekend, too. I've bought her a hat for the field that she likes, and I think I'll swing by and pick up another orchid... ...the one from V-day is STILL blooming! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'd tell her ILY, (not YOU, HER!), but I'm not sure what it means to her now. Heck, I will anyway. It still means the same thing to me as it always has, maybe more.

-2long (had to use this browser, since Internet Exploder keeps crashing, and this one won't let ol' Qfwfq log off!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

SS:

Actually, the more I think about it, the more I'm NOT looking foward to the weekend!!!

I've got to stop thinking about this stuff!!!

-2long

Folks:

I'm in one of those "apprehensive funks" where I can't get out of my mind the notion that a lot (most?) of the people I've come to know on this board over the past year that have been subjected to infidelity are either getting DV'd or seem to have given up and disappeared.

I should no better than to ponder such stuff.

-2long.
P.S. Mothers Day weekend??? I sure wish it weren't

2Long,

I won't pretend to be an expert, but wanted to try to encourage you.

I'm new at this, just initiated Plan B this past Monday. We have been in MB Counseling with Jennifer (Harley) Chalmers, and this week I had a solo session since my H has moved out.

I talked to Jennifer about how wonderful this board was, and she agreed, of course, but said that many people ask her why there are not more success stories and happy endings there for reading.

Her answer: because those "successful" people have fallen back in love, and don't have the time or need to visit the board any longer.

I guess we should remember that, while we want to be here to help each other, our real goal is to not personally need this board any more.

Keep the faith! I am trying to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I'm in one of those "apprehensive funks" where I can't get out of my mind the notion that a lot (most?) of the people I've come to know on this board over the past year that have been subjected to infidelity are either getting DV'd or seem to have given up and disappeared.

Not meeeeee!!!!!!!!! Was the BS and still hanging in there making it work...... one day at a time!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Have a peaceful weekend, 2QL....

C

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>Folks:

....I should no better than to ponder such stuff.

-2long.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok Q, if you don't go do something nice and fun for yourself this weekend, we'll have to send JTW over to sing to you one of the songs on her thread. Which one will you pick? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

Orchid:

LOL!!!

She might just sing one of those songs that killed the martians in Mars Attacks!!!!!

So long as she smiles when she sings, I'll be okay! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-2long.

ISgirl, cerri:

I really gotta stop doing this nonsense to myself!!! Heck, I remember giving the same advice you both just gave me to others here in the not so distant past!

-ol' fool 2long.

Many failures, true.

Many successes, also true.

If I'm what started you thinking, I had better leave you alone.

I wish you could have one really good day, or maybe two. Like Saturday and Sunday.

Do something nice for her for mothers day. She is a mother, and that's not easy no matter what. Your mom could tell stories, if she were here.

Remember, Laugh and the world laughs with you, cry and it dilutes your beer.

SS

2L:

First off, what does &#8220;IKWUM&#8221; that AD left you mean? I don&#8217;t know that acronym.

Now then, back to you. My W did and does indeed have almost daily contact with the OM and will probably continue to see him often throughout the rest of the school year due to the pick-up/drop-off arrangements that they made a long time ago over our respective daughters who go to the same school, so even though they are no longer sexually intimate, nor do I believe that that they continue to have &#8220;deep&#8221; discussions, which you could say in essence, the EA part of it is over, there is indeed continued contact and it has been the source of great pain and anger on my part.

This was one of those situations where if I demanded complete and absolute No Contact of any kind, red flags would have gone up in all the kids&#8217; heads and in those of our mutual friends and so disclosing the affair to the children and to everyone else inevitably would have resulted from such a demand. To add insult to injury, my W actually sent me over to the OM&#8217;s house to pick-up my Step-D from his house a few times on top of all that. Talk about gall!!! Maintaining the appearance that our friendship is still in good standing for the sake of the children and to spare my W the agony of being revealed to everyone, I tolerate this situation for now; this has been my bitter pill to deal with in all this.

After the school year is done and my Step-D&#8217;s friend moves to Washington to live with her mom I see absolutely no reason for my W and the OM to have any type of contact for any reason whatsoever, so I will insist on absolute no-contact after this takes place and see where it goes from there. I will grant you though; that the duration of the affair and level of continued involvement between your W and RM far exceeds what I am dealing with here.

You are right, taking it &#8220;day to day&#8221; would be more difficult with an active affair still in progress. Dealing with a past tense affair is probably easier than dealing with an active one, though both are painful, yet I still believe that the 12 Step approach still applies in taking it one day at a time, none-the-less.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't know how many times I should have to state my limits before the point is taken versus I'm perceived as "bluffing." I'm not bluffing. This "arrangement" is unacceptable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What proof does she have from you, in action, not just words, that you have limits to what you will accept? You are right, you shouldn&#8217;t have to restate your position over and over again, and if you are, and the results are what you currently have, you are not being taken seriously; in her mind you are "all bark and no bite". If stating your limits and enforcing them is what you call &#8220;pushing her off the fence&#8221; then what course of action can you take short of that to obtain the results you desire? And what is wrong with clarifying your position and life&#8217;s principles and expectations and keeping true to it in word and deed? Are you afraid of the choice she will make if you do indeed enforce your limits?

You are not ready to lose her and you do not want to force her into a hard decision at this time, which is fine. So your continued pain and anger comes from her choosing a &#8220;friendship&#8221; over your marriage, that she would be perfectly happy to keep both of you in her life, and that she does not respect and/or love you enough to honor the limits you have stated to her regarding this situation. Her actions bespeak the fact that the level of love and commitment and honor that she has towards you and the marriage does not equal yours towards her and the marriage.

This has become the ultimate waiting game. It is painful to stay put and let everything stand as is and hope that eventually RM proves himself to her that he is not worth keeping in the picture over you and the marriage, and it will be painful to separate and possibly DV. 2L, only you know what&#8217;s best for your situation. I certainly wouldn&#8217;t want to trade places with you at all. Reading these continuing sagas such as yours has helped me not feel so bad about my own situation. It was a real eye-opener for me to read some of the outright nightmares that other people on this forum are enduring on a daily basis and in that I can count my blessings. Let&#8217;s face it, though your sitch and mine may not be similar enough to be called nearly identical, even if they were everyone experiences their own situations in a uniquely different way that is as individual as each person living it. You can take 10 people and put them all through identical crises and each will internally experience it and come out of it in 10 different ways. Our comradery here comes from the similar thoughts and feelings that we all go through in this common tragedy we all share, yet each of us has our own perspectives, tolerances, expectations, and weaknesses and strengths, that makes each of our survival stories unique in their own right. How alike does my situation have to be to yours for my advice to be valid or worthy of consideration?

I completely empathize and sympathize with you and your situation and you have my full support in any course of action that you take in your road to healing and trying to preserve your marriage. I admire your stalwart efforts and perseverance through all of this. You have tremendous inner-strength and resolve which is a testament to both the amount of love that you have for your wife and the level of commitment that you have towards your marriage, and you deserve all the praise in the world for it. If it comes to pass that you lose your W and your M to this bad situation, it can never be said that you didn&#8217;t honestly and sincerely try every avenue and course of action, nor that you did not give your W every opportunity to redeem herself and your M.

My overall synopsis of your story as I have seen it develop over the past 14 months can be summed-up in this:

If you both want and are striving for the same mutual outcome and goals in this, then being ahead of your W in Recovery and perhaps being a little frustrated that it is taking her longer to get to the point where you are at is understandable and tolerable, but at this point it appears that not only are you two are not on the same page in this situation, you are not even working off the same book.

I honestly think that my W&#8217;s epiphanies over the last year, and especially over the last 4 or 5 months, have been spurred on by my being a stronger and more independent individual. I think that even though I may piss her off at times because I much more vocal and I fight for myself more often now than I ever have before in our marriage, I do believe that she actually respects me more; and for me, at this point in my life, her respect means more to me than her love.

I apologize if any of this has been too strongly stated for I certainly do not mean to offend you in any way. It&#8217;s hard not to get emotionally involved with the wonderful people in the MB forums, so when you suffer another disappointment or get out-rightly hurt again, I can&#8217;t help reacting to your W like &#8220;Hey you heartless b*tch! You&#8217;re hurting my friend!&#8221; or reacting to you like &#8220;Dammit 2L, will you please dump that b*tch already?&#8221; It&#8217;s hard to see you suffer and I want to see an end to the pain. I can only wish you the best and lend my emotional and mental support to you whenever I can.

I&#8217;ll be watching your progress, my friend.

Sincerely,

Blind Sided

PS - I found these interesting quotes used by Cerri - I thought they applied to this situation as well.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Plan A is a NEGOTIATING strategy to separate the spouse from the Lover. Avoid the mistake of falling into the fallacy of unconditional love.

[I am wondering if she thinks that you accept things as is at this point - BS]

"When your spouse is trying to decide between you and the lover, it's time for Plan B."
...Willard F. Harley Jr. PhD.

Every one of us has the right to set out the conditions under which the relationship can continue! This includes Care as well as Protection, and is ESSENTIAL for Recovery.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ May 10, 2003, 11:07 AM: Message edited by: Blind Sided ]</small>

2long,

You are at a hard place. Are you and ww in counseling? Would you consider individual counseling as well, would wife?

I know that the counseling wh and I are in, christian is really helping... although when we started this time, NC had also just happened a few months before on it's own.. without my forcing it. During the contact phases I worked hard on plan a, and lb'd too, but I tried to show wh I could be there for him as a better wife.. than what I had been recently.

Anyway, since your ww is at a cake eating point, and still wants the M... maybe she would be agreeable to counseling to help make a better M..? A good counselor - Harley's if you could, or someone else with DBing concepts, or christian marriage values... would help.

Letting her know NC is a must is fine- really that is obvious, and she knows it. I would not restate the requirement, as I tend to do about my h's drinking... I finally realized he knows, saying it over and over again does not help.

Consequences help, boundaries help, but with a crack in the door with love, for the wspouse to come back when they are willing to act more sane.

I think your w probably will, although I don't really know.... she might not be agreeable at all to counseling, I know I noticed something about thinking it was a bad idea to talk to Pepper.

Anyway, fill up her love bank if you are still willing to try, and no lb's, but don't let her overstep your boundaries- when she does draw the line.

Hope to you, Honey

Blind S:

"I honestly think that my W’s epiphanies over the last year, and especially over the last 4 or 5 months, have been spurred on by my being a stronger and more independent individual. I think that even though I may piss her off at times because I much more vocal and I fight for myself more often now than I ever have before in our marriage, I do believe that she actually respects me more; and for me, at this point in my life, her respect means more to me than her love'"

This is interesting. I think I'm seeing some of that here, too, but not as much as you seem to be. I had no idea your W was still in contact with her OM. Yep, you do know a little about what I'm going through. I find it interesting that you say that her respect for you means more than her love. I hadn't thought of this, but maybe that's how I feel as well. To a point, at least.

Lately I'm less angry at her for her behavior than I am frustrated at my perceived lack of growth on her part. But I will work to let go of those frustrations, because they relate to controling her or the outcomes of our M.

I really don't think she wants us to split up, but I also don't think she's thought about it much. She did say more than once that it hurt her that I considered leaving her if I got the job offer last September that I was interviewed for out of state. I don't know if she took me seriously last weekend. Some of her behavior since would seem to indicate she has, but others not. In the end, it doesn't matter so much as the fact that I simply won't live like this any longer than I feel I have to. If we can work through this via negotiating, then great. But we have to do something. I have been taking more of a "stand" for what I believe since the Great Grandmother talk last week. I don't want to let go of the momentum, such as it is.

We had a good day today.

Honey: Yep, my W is seeing an IC, for her anger and her "selflessness" issues. Yep, she gave too much of herself all through our M, by her view. I haven't been in counseling in several months, and am considering renewing. I do have my "iloveulove" support group, though, with SC and others. That's what's gotten me this far.

Thanks, all.
-2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ISGirl:
[QB]2Long,

I talked to Jennifer about how wonderful this board was, and she agreed, of course, but said that many people ask her why there are not more success stories and happy endings there for reading.

Her answer: because those "successful" people have fallen back in love, and don't have the time or need to visit the board any longer.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With as much time as I spend here, and with coaching couples, I wonder if I can put a different spin on it..... that spending time here is more detrimental than helpful to real recovery and that the sucess stories happen for those who put their time and energies towards working together on their marriage.... rather than towards venting or rehashing the conflicts in their marriage.

I found personally that the improvements in my marriage happened when I took my personal life out of the spotlight of public scrutiny and comment. When I went to my husband with my thoughts and feelings rather than to the boards.... Don't get me wrong, you guys are great.... but as much as the support here felt good and validated what I was feeling, it didn't do much for negotiating change at home.

C

THIS got me.....

"Yep, my W is seeing an IC, for her anger and her "selflessness" issues."

I'm going to make a guess here ....."selflessness" issues meaning she doesn't know who she is ??? She's lost her identity??

.....or, (I doubt this one) "selflessness" issues meaning she is too giving of herself and self sacrificing.

If it is the second option .... I'll eat my hat! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Pepper:

You want ketchup with that hat???

I'm not kidding!!!!

We had a good enough day. Spent the whole day on the report. I got to see what RM does for the project.

It's very subjective analysis. No wonder he doesn't have a PhD!!! I'm sorry, but subjectivity is not "data" when it's this subjective. My W's reasons for using him for all the reports is that the subjective results will be consistent. Yeah. And if they're consistently incorrect???

Well, at least she was grateful for the help. We didn't get into any arguments. I just helped all I could. When she thanked me, she said something like she sometimes wishes she could just go pick all the stuff up, and I said I'd be glad to do that for her. I even said I couldn't see any reason why RM should mind me coming to see him myself. At least she did seem to think that was funny (if not sensible!).

Life is strange.
-2long.

>gag< <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I cannot type what I am thinking .... cuz it would not be "selfless".

But, I will type this:

GROW UP M!

YOU are doing fine, T. You have a direction, and control of your throttle. (sound's sexy, doesn't it? LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

We drove 800 miles over the weekend. I'm tuckered out.

The electricians are in our house right now .... about one third $$$ of what it cost you to rewire your old home. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Later'tater.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

<small>[ May 12, 2003, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pepper:

I had a major change of thinking over the weekend, particularly after helping my W with her report. I don't feel so much anger at RM anymore as absolute pity. I'm feeling a fair amount of that for my W as well. What a pitiful relationship! I do not mean 2 imply I've got a "holier than thou" vantage point, because this is really a change in my perspective based on what I've been going through in the past week and a half (most of which has been aired on this forum!). All the 2rmoil, hopes and fears. Been reading more of "the Power of Now" and find it very helpful in these kinds of situations. Chapter 2 is all about letting go of the past and future, and the pain and fears that we create in our thinking that can take us over. I saw just how destructive that can be 2 my own coping abilities this past week and a half. I can also "see" what it's doing 2 my W.

I feel a lot more at ease right now, less worried about the outcomes of all this, even though I still don't see a "happy" outcome on the horizon (because I'm still looking for one, not focusing enough on the now). But I'm getting better at not worrying about it so much. Working with my W on RM's input 2 her report really helped defuse some of the imaginary fires in my mind about who he is and what a "threat" he represents. I don't agree with my W that, even for her, NC is "not a point of negotiation". It may seem like that 2 her now, just like my anger and reasons for it last week seemed so real 2 me at the time, but down the line? Who knows? Worrying about it won't help, though. So I'm going 2 work 2ward ending the worries.

-2long