Pepper:

Another thing. I believe that it ac2ally became possible for my W, via her partitioning her life like she has for the past 12 years, 2 truly be one of the most selfless and at the same time Thee most selfish person I know. One of the reasons I was so surprised on D-day, I guess. Also why I couldn't understand why she was so depressed about her life, because she SEEMED 2 enjoy being selfless, doing things for others, when all the while she says she was getting more and more anxious for "her turn". Well, she took her turn during the past 12 years, and doesn't acknowledge that because she didn't get what she thought she wanted in the process. Now, I'm more than glad 2 give her "her turn" so long as we can work 2ward the real goals she's had all along as a TEAM, mutually committed 2 each other, excluding former A partners.

I don't ask for much, do I? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-2long

I hope I don't get into any trouble for doing this one.

I had a major change of thinking over the weekend, particularly after helping my W with her report. I don't feel so much anger at RM anymore as absolute pity. I'm feeling a fair amount of that for my W as well. What a pitiful relationship! I do not mean 2 imply I've got a "holier than thou" vantage point, because this is really a change in my perspective based on what I've been going through in the past week and a half (most of which has been aired on this forum!). All the 2rmoil, hopes and fears. Been reading more of "the Power of Now" and find it very helpful in these kinds of situations. Chapter 2 is all about letting go of the past and future, and the pain and fears that we create in our thinking that can take us over. I saw just how destructive that can be 2 my own coping abilities this past week and a half. I can also "see" what it's doing 2 my W

.I feel a lot more at ease right now, less worried about the outcomes of all this, even though I still don't see a "happy" outcome on the horizon (because I'm still looking for one, not focusing enough on the now). But I'm getting better at not worrying about it so much. Working with my W on RM's input 2 her report really helped defuse some of the imaginary fires in my mind about who he is and what a "threat" he represents. I don't agree with my W that, even for her, NC is "not a point of negotiation". It may seem like that 2 her now, just like my anger and reasons for it last week seemed so real 2 me at the time, but down the line? Who knows? Worrying about it won't help, though. So I'm going 2 work 2ward ending the worries.

I read this part and I can see a pattern. You have said many of these same things before - but it always comes round to what I believe are a couple of main points.

1. You need improvement from her to want to stay M'd. That would be NC with RM, or her saying she was sorry and start to change and ACTIVELY work on your M.

2. You think you see slow improvement so you continue.

3. Something triggers things for you, and you feel it is hopeless and want to hang it up.

I would like to see something break the cycle unless you feel you are getting somewhere with it like it is. I wasn't happy when you felt you had to D, but I was happy thinking something may change, and so perhaps a breakthrough.

If you see improvement, I'll leave it alone.

If you're tired of me, I'll shut up.

If you think I'm ugly, there's nothing I can do about that, just be glad your not married to me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

SS

<small>[ May 12, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

"1. You need improvement from her to want to stay M'd. That would be NC with RM, or her saying she was sorry and start to change and ACTIVELY work on your M."

Yep.

"2. You think you see slow improvement so you continue."

Lately, I've recognized that the improvement is largely within myself. Not much from her. But I have 2 be careful and not DJ her.

"3. Something triggers things for you, and you feel it is hopeless and want to hang it up."

Hopeless and at the same time hopeful. I would say that right NOW, I feel that our M is almost hopeless. But I feel that my future is hopeful, maybe because if I can't change our M unilaterally, maybe I can "earn" a DV, as BrambleRose put it.

"I would like to see something break the cycle unless you feel you are getting somewhere with it like it is. I wasn't happy when you felt you had to D, but I was happy thinking something may change, and so perhaps a breakthrough."

Something WILL change, at least with me. Breakthrough? I think so, but you people have heard me say things like this before, haven't you?

"If you see improvement, I'll leave it alone."

Your call.

"If you're tired of me, I'll shut up."

No, you're one of my favorites! If you're tired of ME, though, maybe I should shut up!!! ;o)

"If you think I'm ugly, there's nothing I can do about that, just be glad your not married to me."

I pity your W, though! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

I pity your W, though!

Yes, I think her mother does also, at least some days. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I just heard
Turn! Turn! Turn! by the Byrds and I thought of you.
A time to gain, a time to loose.
I hope it's your time to gain - soon.
SS

SS:

thanks for the thought, however "Old Testament" it might be <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I, 2, hope a winning change is on the horizon. I struggle between "forcing" change and seemingly waiting indefinitely, as you've noticed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Why do choices have 2 be so darn hard, anyway??

-ol' 2long.

Yeah, but remember, you can't force change on anyone but yourself.....

You have an amazing amount of patience 2long. Oh my, there's another possible reason for your name... you've been perhaps waiting 2long...

Keep smiling if you can though. Your sense of humour is alwaya a pick-me-up! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen

Hey Q,

What a tough spot to be in, truly. As you know, I can relate. You have given this SO much time and tried so hard. To still be at a point where you have the uncertainty of the future just doesn't seem fair, does it?

I am glad to hear you are past the anger, I am sort of going through that phase all over again and it's tough. It is easy to let anger take over when you think of your W STILL being with RM, I'm sure, but you have the right state of mind now: This is a pathetic person who is involved in this R with your W. You have every right to have a holier than though attitude. You have the tools and you have learned. You ARE better than RM.

I can relate to this very well, as you know our situations are so similar. And it does seem like you are trapped in a pattern of slight improvements followed by triggers that again have you wanting to divorce. Normally in situations like this, Plan B is the order of the day. Seems like you are planning to skip over that and go right to Dv, I hope you might consider somehow distancing yourself from everything before you decide to file. If you still decide, that's cool, I know you have been at this a lot longer than me and will be comfortable with any decision you make.

Sorry I don't have any great advice to offer you, just some shared sympathy as I know how you are feeling. I am jealous of the fact that you get to see your W regularly, as I have never had that luxury since D-Day, but I am also thankful that I don't have to deal with the A on a daily basis, too. So there are ups and downs to every situation I guess.

Hang in there, keep us informed, and you're in my thoughts. You've been a great advisor to me, and you deserve to be happy. You're one of the good guys.

ALS

All:

I don't know what happened yesterday, but when my got home after a LONG day at work, she seemed "unusually" happy. She held my hand and snuggled as we were laying in bed chatting, then she said she wanted SF! Afterwards, while we were talking again, she said she'd started reading "Passionate Marriage"! We talked a little about it, and she said it was sure full of all kinds of complicated stuff and a lot of sex therapy stuff. I told her which chapters I focused on, and she said she would going to read those first.

Then, this morning, she wanted SF again! TWICE! After that, I helped her with some stuff before heading off to work.

...............2............l.....o..n..........g! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Hmmmmm,
A time to gain.

I just hope it lasts longer this time.

Wish I had something wise to say, but I don't.

SS

SS:

But you did! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I'm not going to get all imaginary on you this time. I know how low the rollercoaster can go! I still have this small issue with a certain boundary I keep venting about that wasn't addressed.

Still, I'm feeling pretty nifty this week. Am going to wallow in niftiness for a bit. Okay? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-2long.
P.S. She's expressed an interest in what I'm reading now, too.

Congrats, man. Crossing my fingers that your good luck keeps going at this pace, and you can get those boundaries that you want set.

ALS

ALS:

Thanks! I think the boundaries are set. Part of the reason for this change in her may be due to a perceived "urgency" for her to do something, before she comes home from work or out of state sometime and finds a stack of DV papers waiting for her. I wouldn't do that, because I would tell her anything I was planning to do along those lines and when. I think that, in spite of her insistence that NC was non-negotiable, she realizes that she may feel different when it comes down to me letting go of the M if she insists on her friendship. I don't know, and I'm going to stop speculating. That doesn't do me any good whatsoever. I will talk about it with her. If she really won't give up the friendship, then I will probably make SOME move in July. Either separation, plan B, or DV. Just hope that I really won't need to.

-2long

Hahahaha

I told you you'd "enjoy" Passionate Marriage! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just the chapter titles are enough to get something going.

Take this recent behavior as you have the others.... don't interpret, just enjoy. In the now, baby, in the now.

How fun is this?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

2L,

So you give her a "front end alignment" and straightened out her "chassis" a few times, that's great! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Maybe, just maybe, she is beginning to realize that the M is what one makes of it. To paraphrase: Ask not what the mariage can do for you, rather ask what you can do for the marriage! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

With your new centeredness in consciousness and living in the "now", you can thoroughly enjoy these moments with your spouse without worrying about what it all means or trying to make something more of it than what it is at the moment. Enjoy her revelations with wild abandon, whilst you keep your eye focused on your ultimate goal and don't compromise your boudaries. Enjoy the journey!

Now tell her that you have 69 other ways for her to enjoy the marriage, too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I feel so inspired by this news. I can't wait to go home and park my "car" in the "garage"! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I'm happy for you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I always worry when things change and I don't understand why.

I suppose I like to be able to re-create the parameters that lead to the positive results and If I don't know what they are, then I cannot.

You may very well be right that she worries about what may come and she may be trying to make things work. I hope she sees it as positive change and not a stalling tactic.

Her giver can only give so much unless her taker thinks it is getting something too. Unless she can let go of thinking OM is necessarry for her happiness that won't happen and she will taper off again and become cold once more.

YOU already know more bad days will come, so build up some strength to get through.

I can't read the "signs" but always happy for good days.

I'll do the happy dance as soon as I figure out what is going on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I'm not trying to be negative, just want you to be careful and continue to hold up the yardstick to see what is happening and not fly by the seat of your pants. Sometimes the whole seat gets ripped out and it's ugly. ( I may regret using that statement, I think I can see it comming.)

She still happy?

SS

You know, Pep may be right, you maybe ought to just enjoy life and quit worring about it. I can worry enough for both of us for a week or so if it helps.

<small>[ May 15, 2003, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS:

She's still relatively happy, yes.

All. I've been thinking more about what happened 2 ME the past 2ple of weeks, what I was reading at the time, and what may be going on between us (because I don't think it'll do me much good 2 speculate on what my W is thinking). Thinking, 2 the extent that it's a reasonable way 2 behave (Tolle argues that we all "think" 2 much about the past and fu2re and lose track of the only thing that's real - the NOW). And I decided that my most "negative" reaction early last week was due 2 some pointed observations made by a friend on our iloveulove forum that were right smack dab on the mark, but not what my ego wanted 2 hear, much less deal with, at the time. That got me all fired up, not anything my W had said before or after that (and remember, she yelled at me for several minutes about the NC issue - but I remained calm the whole time, though I "threatened" her with DV at several points during the argument). At this same time, I received my copy of Power of Now in the mail, and started reading it... Hit me even harder than the best stuff in PM! I'm only on page 65 now, and it's still doing that. Blind Sided is right, 2. What a sense of peace that changing one's perspective from dwelling on past circumstances, present si2ations, and fu2re worries 2 focusing on being in the now can really provide...

It's still a pretty nifty feeling. I suppose, it could even get so nifty that I might even lose the "need" 2 make ultimatums ever. That's not 2 say that I won't need my boundaries respected. What I think it is saying is that I have hopes that someday, hopefully before I feel the "need" 2 end my M, that my W and I can agree that it IS reasonable 2 put subjects like NC on the POJA table. It is now, but only one of us believes so. The other probably will someday, 2, is the thought here. And in the meantime, I'm just enjoying "being M'd" rather than worrying about what I'm imagining is or isn't going on behind my back that I can't control anyway.

There IS only NOW. The past and future don't exist, except in our memories and imaginations.

"The future lies ahead. As for the past? Lies, lies lies..."
-Patrick Layton Paulsen.

-ol' 2long.

2Long:
There IS only NOW. The past and future don't exist, except in our memories and imaginations.

Some say they all exist in the same place but we can only access the part we call "now" at any given time. I supose that's the same thing anyway. You really don't have something you can't get to.

Today is a new day, new week.
Alive and well?
Or just alive?

SS

Hi SS.

Thanks for asking. Internet exploder crashed a bit ago, and Safari will only let me log in as Qfwfq, so here I am!

Couple of strange things happened this weekend.

My W went to a memorial service on Saturday. I was fine with this, as my son and I worked on a project together most of the day. But I started feeling uneasy, and it took me a while to figure out why: My W had said, during our argument 2 weeks ago, that during one of her calls to RM before that, she told him about their friend's death last month. So RM knew her from school as well. Was he at the memorial service?? Well, I don't think he was, but my W didn't say anything about it one way or the other. She didn't get back late or anything, so my unease feels now like more of a "trigger" curiosity than anything else.

She said some strange things when we were heading over to the hardware store on Sunday morning. We were talking about what to do about the house if we have to sue the insurance company and it takes 3 years to get moved back in. She mentioned that I might want to try for that job out of state again, and that "we" could move there but keep the house here. She never has talked about this opportunity like we'd DV, even when things were much "worse" than they are now. She always talks about the future as though it's "us". I love this, but would love a directly communicated commitment. (are you surprised?)

She's said many times lately that she thinks her B and his W have a tenuous M with lots of problems, but my MIL and SIL disagree. They have the same impression as I do - that their M is very close. My BIL is a very caring, outgoing person and father to their two small kids. I've admired him for years for this. He learned of M's A last summer while I was on my "sabatical". I never knew how he reacted until yesterday. He doesn't talk to me about it. My SIL and MIL said he cried for a long time when he heard. He's always respected my W as the "anchor" in their family (the oldest of 4 kids, she took care of them from when she was about 10).

My W has been more cheerful in the past week, in general, though she certainly has her pessimistic moments that are still hard to be around. My MIL and SIL asked me how long I could "take it." Meaning contact continuing. I simply said something like "not indefinitely, but I can hang on for a while longer." We all agreed that there have been signs that she is starting to realize some things, though it seems like she has a long ways to go still. And it's hard for us to be patient.

And she's still my W, and though she can't vocalize it directly, she seems to still want to be. And I've got a lot of growing to do still. I told them that "I'm preparing for DV, and maybe in the process of doing so, I can save my M."

-Qfwfq (aka 2long, but without the "2s")
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I told them that "I'm preparing for DV, and maybe in the process of doing so, I can save my M."
Simple, but profound.

Time goes on. Life goes on. We either "LIVE" it, or we slowly die. There's more than one way to die.

I choose life.
Looks like you do too.
With Pep it would probably be all caps.

SS

Have you been reading the Minnesota newspaper article installments posted by Still Trying To Save It?

The WW states an identical point of view as M.

Let me know your take.
Pep