Geez! That's what my H left saying! He wanted something "simple, uncomplicated" -- even though he had done all the complicating! He wanted a brand-new "young" (i.e., not mature) relationship -- the first flush of new love. Even if it was with someone that everyone warned him was cuckoo (neither young nor beautiful, either).

Point is, a mature relationship has to work through stuff. You hit that point eventually in any relationship. It's not going to be like a "new" love. They tell me it really gets better.

Don't be scared of it like my H was!

Ark, I love reading your posts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Blah, we have heard it all before from WS's, the "My situation is different, My last chance at happiness, My soulmate, The OP is the most incredible, loving person, who doesn't deserve to be hurt"...(you overlook the fact that this OP chose to be a part of someone breaking their vows, she chose to give you an ultimatum for you to leave your family, forgetting the fact that this would suit HER NEEDS, HER HAPPINESS, but let me see if I can guess this right...SHE ONLY WANTS YOU TO BE HAPPY, she is only thinking of you! Well, that is until you DON'T CHOSE THE WAY SHE WANTS YOU TO CHOSE, then her tune will change, that is when the emotional blackmail will start..Oh yeah, it already did! Let me remind you hint,hint...that "I'M MOVING AWAY" line she dealt you since you didn't leave you wife...that was a classic oldie! And boy it worked!
Blah this is going to end in 1 of 3 ways:
1. You continue bargain shopping, comparing which one is the better value, so much so that 1 or BOTH will get disgusted by your going back and forth that they say ADIOS MUCHACHO, DON'T LET THE DOOR KNOB HIT YA!
2. You chose to work on marriage, using outside help (therapy) to give you the proper tools into dealing with infidelity and the unhappiness that bought you both to this point. It can possibly make your marriage something totally different, something wonderful and fulfilling. (Oh by the way, you can not do the working on marriage thing with a 3rd person on the side, sorry pal).
3. You chose OP, ending your marriage, and living happily ever after with the OP (for about 2-3 years that is, because that is about how long these things usually last). That's when you feel compelled to send that letter to your ex-wife asking for her forgiveness in how you treated her so badly and wished that you had it to do all over again because you would have chosen differently. Your ex-wife will accept your apology ofcourse, because by then you won't mean anything to her, just an ex-husband who had to leave for his LAST CHANCE AT HAPPINESS! Good luck

"I used to be too strictly moral and compromising about my own needs before the affair."

WHAT EXACTLY are you talking about? How the heck does being moral compromise YOUR needs? Be specific.

You cannot just spout stuff like this and then wash it off. Get deeper into this comment. Explain your thinking here. What made you "too strictly moral" before?

Pep

I personally am more than sick with hearing about poor OW. Poor OW for me, is the woman who left her husband and child for my husband after only knowing him 3 weeks, and now that she is pregnant, they just have to be a family. Why is it that OP is so much more important to not hurt, then the person you said your vows to is?> It really does sound ludicrous unless you are in the fog- Blah, we just don't want you to let your life skid out of control. We are hard on you because we want you to stick to your MORALS that can get you out of this mess instead of deeper in it. Be brave, be bold, be strong, Do right by your wife who loves you and wants to forgive you..you may not have that chance for long.

Blah,

If my WH had custody of our computer, I would have thought you were him - your actions, descriptions and thoughts seems so similar (except we have the children/pregnancy issues).

You say, "To answer your question, I DONT deserve either one. I know that. To show I value my marriage I have been calling my wife at least 3 times a day, taking her out, being kind to her, and really WANTING to end the affair and the lying. I really want to I am just hopeless."

My WH did these same things and would have said the same thing -- that he was showing me how much he cared and how sorry he was by "wanting to end the affair and by giving me attention, etc." I can't speak for your wife but to me this was/is a million times worse than if he would have stood up and ended it with me. for the simple fact that it is really confusing to the BS. As a BS, I don't understand how you can tell me you love me and still see another woman. Problem was that he wanted both of us. But believe me, attention, phone calls and care is no good for your wife if you still are seeing OW. If you can't stop seeing OW, try not seeing your wife and see how sad you are.

My poor WH is devestated. He still has OW but I no longer am interested. He tries to pull me again and again into this horrible triangle but I'm not interesteed in participating anymore. I am scared, overwhelmed and anxious about the future. I am fearful of raising our chidren alone and worry that I will never love again, but these fears are not enough to make me want him again. I have seen his treachery for what it is and will not subject myself to that trauma again. I deserve more that what he has offered me since this affair began.

You are eroding the love of both of these women and, depending on their strength, you may end up alone. This may be for the best because it will allow you the time and energy to focus on yourself and understand what is missing in your own life. I hope the best for you as a I hope that my own husband will seek help neither with me or with the OW but with a professional who will guide him through healing the insecurities, fears, and traumas that have plagued his own life.

Good luck to you.

Pepper,
What I meant be overly moral and compromising means that my wife had an EA with an old boyfriend 3 years ago...I found out and she promised not to do it again, she did it again, so I smashed her perfume collection and she asked for a divorce. When I arranged it, she cried and said she didn't think I would do it and she wants to keep the marriage and try much harder this time to make it better. I swallowed my pride and hoped for a better future, kind of feeling like I have already had enough trials in the marriage.

Now, I had been put through many trials with her in the marriage, meaning I put up with her being a serious financial liability for all of those years, her verbal abuse, and her self-abuse (she used to hit her head on the wall and threaten to kill herself). I had forgave what most men would have walked away from even in the first year together with her. I held that the comittment was the main reason to stay together and work through problems. We had been in counseling all those(7) years.

But after we had resumed counseling I felt that there was no real spark or change in her or in us, we had not gotten any closer or intimate. Our communication had not improved that much, but we fought less. We just felt like roommates, kind of simple life, but not "in love". I felt she didn't show she was attracted to me, didn't support me in a positive way, and didn't respond when I tried to bridge the gap between us. She would say things like, "its ok we are already married, and why don't you just go have an affair" (apathetic). I got tired of wanting more and got depressed about why the marriage didn't change since she asked for a divorce. So when she was skiing with her friends one weekend, I took my mistress on a date. I have been doing it ever since. Now I am looking at it and I am TRYING to see things the way they really are. Does this explain why I am reluctant to return to my marriage? No simple solution there either.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blah34:
<strong>Hi, I know I may be wearing out my welcome here. Please just consider me as desperate as I sound. I am desperate to stop this duality. My loving and dedicated wife remains faithful to me after how much I have hurt her. We went to a pastor for counseling and I told him that I want the marriage but I was still in contact with OW. I felt terrible and admitted to my wife that I had some contact. I apologized to the pastor but he cut me loose. I have since had further contact with OW since the last admittance to my wife. I still feel very terrible about this, I am still caught up in it. I am thinking how much I love OW and I really do (I know how skeptical you all are but she has much goodness and has been good to me). I am still thinking how I also love my wife (she is being good to me too) but afraid to let go of OW. Can anyone see how this is so hard for me?

OW knows I lied about filing the divorce and she threatened to move away...but she wanted to stay friends. Now she admits that she doesn't want to move but mad because of me going back to wife. She is saying "we will be friends" but still wanting to see me. I KNOW that I cannot be her friend without getting emotionally and physically overcome. I am way too attracted and needy for her attention. I know I hurt her really bad, but she still doesn't want to lose me.

During this period of no physical contact with OW I had time to think about sex and I started trying to feel something for my wife. I have been dating wife and trying to imagine us gettting closer, or being as close as I am to OW. I had slightest glimmers of imagination but I just felt blank about it.

Believe me, I don't like hurting these two people. Every day I hope to myself, this will be over soon. At the same time, I cannot sleep because I fear that I will lose one or the other or both of them. I welcome all comments.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Blah

Everyone here is being so supportive and helpful to you, I really don't know what to add in. But as a FWS and now a BS, well I'm going to jump in with a few comments. H_P said it so well as someone who has been there, done that, got the t-shirt.

You are a selfish, selfish man. You make assumptions about your wife who you have devastated by your actions, and still want your cake and eat it. Time and time again I have said on these boards "What I did was beyond comprehension to me, how could I have been so selfish and not seen the pain and devastation that would follow. But at least after d-day I stopped contact with OM pretty much immediately. At least I wasn't that cruel, insensitive and completely mad. I really don't know how anyone could continue on with contact knowing the utter pain and devastation they have caused to those they are supposed to love." Well, you clearly don't give a damn. If you did, you'd go cold turkey and give up OW.

If my words to you seem harsh, it is because my STBX (DV papers arrived yesterday, anniversary Monday, how ironic) didn't give me the one chance to work on our M, refused MC, didn't want to know, and then started up his own little love-in with a bimbette who is 16 years his junior. Am I angry, hell yes!!! And I get angry with people like you who come here whining about how hard it is to make a decision, and what a wonderful person OW is and your lovely wife, but you're just chucking it all up in the air, and I can tell you Blah, if the pieces land like mine did, well then you really will have problems.

Be a man, stand up and be counted and do the right thing. If OW is so wonderful (hey, wasn't your last thread about how she was playing you around, wouldn't let you have her phone number, introduce you to people etc. huuum, she sounds soooo great) she'll wait for you until you have given your M a fair chance (at least 6 months). If your M doesn't work out you can go back to her.

Take care.

Lisa

Lisa,

That was awesome. I wish certain other people in immediate life circle had your attitude, wits and directiveness.

Truly spoken by an awesome woman. Your husband is crazy for filing.

H2Y - thanks so much. I don't want to threadjack, but really, that's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a while <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope Blah reads it carefully and thinks about some of the things I've said. The most important being, if he looses his W through his selfishness and finds himself heading for DV, well, then he truly will have problems.

Lisa

Blah

The following link, from the Notable Posts thread, might be helpful:

Help for betrayers who want to stop but can't

TA

Blah ....

Thanks for answering.

You did not explain what YOUR moral, ethical values are.

If you go back to your post, can you point out where you applied your principles and what they are?

For instance .... if you say your major moral principle is "honesty" .... then show how your being honest in your marriage before your affair "compromised" your needs.

You said you "swallowed my pride". This is not a moral value is it?

I still don't see what your values are ...and, I suspect, you are not accustomed to thinking this way. most people aren't.

Having solid values does NOT turn a person into a doormat ..... perhaps you are functioning under this assumption.

Try again.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lisa in London:
<strong>H2Y - thanks so much. I don't want to threadjack, but really, that's the nicest thing anyone has said to me in a while <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope Blah reads it carefully and thinks about some of the things I've said. The most important being, if he looses his W through his selfishness and finds himself heading for DV, well, then he truly will have problems.

Lisa</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Lisa,

Your welcome. Lets not forget, to remind Blah that after losing his marriage, that the chances the the relationship with the OW would succeed and last are pretty much null.

From Dr. Pittmans Study:

Out of 100 couples studied, (Pittman’s sample in his book private lies)
He said 50% of marriages affected by affair divorce.

Which means 50 marriages between the H and W have now dissolved, cost the families thousands of dollars, disrupted the children's lives for the rest of their lives, ruined the family unit ie., in laws, parents, hurt their credit, their employment, lost their best of friends, all because the WS and the OP couldn't leave the fog long enough for the BS and the WS to attempt reconciliation.

But, only 12% of the betrayers actually married the OP after their divorce with the original spouse ended. That's six happy WS, now living and loving in harmony with their OP.

So now that the H and W have divorced due to nonreconcilliation, because one spouse was so selfish to introduce a third +/- person into the marriage and 50 out of a hundred filed for divorce, only 12% of 50 WS married the OP... for a whopping homewrecking total of 6 happy WS and OP marriages.

And then 75% of those 6 wonderful WS and OP adulterated marriages failed (6*.75)= 4.5 devasted WS and OP marriages. Hey 1.5% of the happily married couples are now still together, lets Rejoice, start us a marriage counseling business because life is going to be good!

which only caused another marriage to fail affecting the same parties again, with divorce, finances, family issues, emotional problems for the children of the first and now this failed marriage.

Thus only 1.5 married betrayers are left to make it out of 100 couples studied, to live a wonderful happy life together, where trust is built, foundations are set on the wake of marital destruction of 98 other marriages.

Lisa,

What else can we tell him? Do you think that Blah and his mistress are going to be that couple in the 1.5%? Looking around... Blah is usernumber 27313. Hmm.. math <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">27313.0 members here when Blah joined up.
*.50 of us here will divorce.
-------
13656.50 of us will be divorced.
*.12 BS will marry the OP
--------
1638.780 BS/OP will marry
*.750 BS/OP marriages will fail
---------
1229.085 BS/OP failed marriages
-1638.780 BS/OP marriages
---------
409.695 BS/OP marriages will make it[/code]</blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So 409 of us are going to see the OP with our former spouse the rest of our lives... If I could run a number generator to figure out the chances of myself.. what are the odds that my marriage won't end in divorce? Is it 66%? I know that 66% number is wrong.. where are my mathmaticians?

Blah,

Run the logical numbers and see what you get. Quit theorizing who your going to be with and do the math. Your going to be with NO ONE, if you keep this up any longer. Lets see, I'd rather be in the 50% of the people attempting recovery than the 1.5% of people who are on top of the world after the slaughter in the wake.

Hey.. I can see a new Fox Reality Show based upon this <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Blah, you said:

"I got tired of wanting more and got depressed about why the marriage didn't change since she asked for a divorce."

So, Blah, you compromised your personalintegrity because you "got tired" and "depressed"?

See Blah, see what happends when we try to solve our important life issues by betraying our moral principles .... we have short term gain (usually in the form of pleasure or anxiety relief) ... and then we have LONG TERM CONSEQUENCES.

Having this affair felt wonderful, I'm sure. Having this affair made you happy in the short term..... and now look where you are!

You are choosing between two women who both want to be partnered with a Blah who has become weak-willed, an ineffective problem-solver, and an adulteror.

No wonder you can't choose. Why would you want a woman who would settle for what type of man you're offering?

Do you want a woman who has values? Who is honest? Who is strong and forthright? Who will be a stable a partner for you in the years to come?

What do you think becoming anadulteror is going to do for you in the long term? Does it make YOU a better catch of a man? Is having an affair a good prescription for a dysfunctional marriage?

Make use of your values. Think about what values YOU want in a partner .... and then, BECOME that person. Otherwise, you have nothing but the humiliation of you lost values to recommend you.

Take care.

Pep

Blah,

Ok, so your wife has been abusive for all these years. She had an affair. I’m not sure what kind of affair. So I assume you threw this out here to show how justified you are in having an affair and your current situation. There is nothing ethically correct in staying in a marriage in which you are being abused.

You say that you forgave your wife her affair. I don’t think you did. It seems from the things you say that you are punishing her. You are rubbing her face in all of this. Perhaps the reason you cannot give up your affair is because you are not done paying her back for the hurt she gave you. There is nothing ethical about that either.

What I notice in all you say is that you paint yourself as a victim in every case. Not much of a man are you? Or is it that you use this sorry victim status to justify to yourself the very bad choices you make. Unfortunately it sounds like no one but you buys your victim status. All you have ever had to do is to put on your boots and walk out of an abusive marriage, out of this affair, and so forth.

To be truthful, I don’t care if your wife abused you. The fact is that having an affair is not the way to handle it.

I don’t know if you deserve your wife. I do know that she does not deserve what you are doing to her. No one deserves to be treated the way you are treating her.

I vote for you leaving your wife and going to the OW. Why? Because you definitely deserve the OW. Actually you and she deserve each other. You already said that she will not commit to a long term relationship with you.. that you feel she is only using you. But that is the type of woman your actions deserve.. one who uses people, one who uses a married man for sex, and one who has no problem with breaking up a marriage. She sounds like a real catch.

I think that the reason you have not left your wife yet is not because you love or care for her but because you are afraid of being alone. You know, from what you have told us, that the OW will not have a long term relationship with you. So you are hanging on to the OW as long as you can with no regard for your wife. You assume that your wife will stay with you through this. Then when OW finally dumps you, you will still have your wife. You will not be alone. That is selfishness beyond belief.

You are not here to end your affair or to repair your marriage. You are here to get help in prolonging this hell you have visited on your wife and on yourself.

<small>[ June 05, 2003, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: Eleonora ]</small>

....and U know what?? Z is the nicer and more patient one between the 2 of us!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Blah,
Please tell me again..... what is your goal and what are you willing to do to attain it?

L.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Orchid, Yikes, I thought long and hard about posting that. But this is just too much.

Zorweb,
I won't post here anymore, I was sincerely just looking for help with a difficult problem. All people suffer so no big deal.

Time for "tough love". Gonna be very blunt here.

"...looking for help...". HELLO!!! You got lots of help, you haven chosen to listen to none of it!! You want us to tell you that what you are doing is ok, we won't. You want us to feel sorry for you, we do...a little bit, not much. You want us to believe you are a victim, we don't believe it for a minute!!

I'll tell you what I see. An emotionally immature, irresponsible, vindictive, manipulative and spiritually stunted man. You make the choices in your life, not your W. Grow up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Zorweb,
I won't post here anymore, I was sincerely just looking for help with a difficult problem. All people suffer so no big deal. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why not post, blah? You have gotten exactly what you sought, LOTS and LOTS of help from true experts who took time to post to you because they care. What is it about the advice that you find unhelpful?

Regarding your statement about suffering... Here's the big deal. If people cause their own suffering and knowingly cause suffering for others that IS a big deal. YOU have done this. It is a huge deal! YOU are the cause of the suffering, and YOU have the power to change it!

Don't continue to be weak, blah. You can change this cycle.

Don't continue to wallow in your dilemma. Please do something now. And keep posting. We want to help.

Estes