Hi, I know I may be wearing out my welcome here. Please just consider me as desperate as I sound. I am desperate to stop this duality. My loving and dedicated wife remains faithful to me after how much I have hurt her. We went to a pastor for counseling and I told him that I want the marriage but I was still in contact with OW. I felt terrible and admitted to my wife that I had some contact. I apologized to the pastor but he cut me loose. I have since had further contact with OW since the last admittance to my wife. I still feel very terrible about this, I am still caught up in it. I am thinking how much I love OW and I really do (I know how skeptical you all are but she has much goodness and has been good to me). I am still thinking how I also love my wife (she is being good to me too) but afraid to let go of OW. Can anyone see how this is so hard for me?

OW knows I lied about filing the divorce and she threatened to move away...but she wanted to stay friends. Now she admits that she doesn't want to move but mad because of me going back to wife. She is saying "we will be friends" but still wanting to see me. I KNOW that I cannot be her friend without getting emotionally and physically overcome. I am way too attracted and needy for her attention. I know I hurt her really bad, but she still doesn't want to lose me.

During this period of no physical contact with OW I had time to think about sex and I started trying to feel something for my wife. I have been dating wife and trying to imagine us gettting closer, or being as close as I am to OW. I had slightest glimmers of imagination but I just felt blank about it.

Believe me, I don't like hurting these two people. Every day I hope to myself, this will be over soon. At the same time, I cannot sleep because I fear that I will lose one or the other or both of them. I welcome all comments.

Blah,

U need to loose them both. What right do you have to deserve either? In fact, you need to go with the OW since you are just hell bent on hurting your W over and over again. Am I trying to make you angry? Yes, enough to make you fight for your M. Right now you are a limp soldier, your sword is made of rubber and the OW is threatening you and you are falling for it like a sucker.

Harsh words? Could be. Not going to be nice from a Pro MBer.

What are you doing to show you value your M? Give us 1 sound reason why your W should give you another chance? If you can answer those questions, maybe you have a chance.

Think hard. Believe it or not, I personally would like to see you go on the straight and narrow but right now you are believing in the OW more than our common sense. I think you want to set yourself up to fail.

Realize that you are not the first WS that has been given a verbal thrashing. Wish all the WS associated with MB (that includes the ones whose spouses post here) could have that luxury. So don't get too offended, just know why these words are coming your way. Take it like a Spouse and not a WS mouse.

L.

Orchid,
Thanks I know I feel as low as you make me sound. One of my friends said "you're fu#*ed up" and one said "I think you get off on it"

To answer your question, I DONT deserve either one. I know that. To show I value my marriage I have been calling my wife at least 3 times a day, taking her out, being kind to her, and really WANTING to end the affair and the lying. I really want to I am just hopeless. One sound reason why my wife should give me another chance is to allow me the opportunity to love and care for her, something I haven't ever done completely right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by blah34:
<strong>Orchid,
Thanks I know I feel as low as you make me sound. One of my friends said "you're fu#*ed up" and one said "I think you get off on it"

To answer your question, I DONT deserve either one. I know that. To show I value my marriage I have been calling my wife at least 3 times a day, taking her out, being kind to her, and really WANTING to end the affair and the lying. I really want to I am just hopeless. One sound reason why my wife should give me another chance is to allow me the opportunity to love and care for her, something I haven't ever done completely right.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You aren't showing you value your W at all, no matter what you do, until you go NC with OW and stick to it. You didn't say your vows with an extra woman standing there, why would you bring one into the marriage now and think it is ok?

adgirl,
You are right about the no contact. I don't think its ok to bring another woman in, neither does my wife or my mistress. I am sure you are aware of the "reasons" why affairs happen, but I don't fully understand my own self why I did it but more importantly why I continue to do it while keeping my wife waiting. I keep bouncing back and forth between them.

I guess I am just asking you all how do I make a decision either way about this and stick with it. I mean I should release my wife rather than keep hurting her. I should commit to one or the other and this is what I am afraid to do.

Does any other WS out there understand what I am going through and can help me focus step by step on what I need to do to come to some resolution? I know I am wrong and bad and need some help to change.

Blah,

I don't know if you've read anything on the website other than the forums, so, I am going to cut and paste the URL's to make it easy for you.

First you and your spouse need to understand the Marriage Builders Concepts, and how Dr. Harley Learned to Save Marriages. One of the things that Dr. Harley does with his Basic Marriage Building Concepts, is to restore the marriage from an Affair. What is an affair? Is my spouse having an Affair? Am I having an Affair? What must I do?

Once the both of you understand the Marriage Builders Conceptsyou will then, ONLY, able to begin the end of the hurt for everyone.

There are Steps to Recover from an Affair. But first you must understand why all of this happened and how are you going to Survive this Affair?

There are many parts to an Affair. Whether the Unfaithful Wife the Unfaithful Husband, or the Other Person the process to end the Affair and Restore the Marriage is the hardest and the most stressful thing in your life that you will do.

Coping with Infidelity, Part 1: How Do Affairs Begin?
Coping with Infidelity, Part 2: How Should Affairs End?
Coping with Infidelity, Part 3: Restoring the Marital Relationship.
Coping with Infidelity, Part 4: Overcoming Resentment.

Accepting the basic Marriage Builders Concepts will help both you and your spouse make the necessary changes to make each other happy again.

How do you make your spouse happy when you don't know what makes them happy? Try and understand how to fill their Love Bank.

Understanding your Love Bank and that of your spouses will help both of you understand each others Instincts and Habits.

When we understand what our spouses Instincts and Habits are and we can see how they react to triggers that affect their Love Bank, only then will you and your spouse be able to understand and fulfill each others Most Important Emotional Needs.

Before trying to understand each others Most Important Emotional Needs, you both need to understand what the description of each need is.
Affection
Sexual Fulfillment
Conversation
Recreational Companionship
Honesty and Openness
Physical Attractiveness
Financial Support
Domestic Support
Family Commitment
Admiration

You and your spouse need to click and print the following Questionaire's:
(Print 2 copies for each of you and take your time filling them out, alone, in a quiet place where you have time to think.)

Emotional Needs Questionaire
Love Busters Questionaire
Personal History Questionaire
Financial Support Questionaire
Recreational Enjoyment Inventory

When you both finish the Emotional Needs Questionaires, both of you need to look at The Policy of Undivided Attention.

With all of this attention the two of you are giving each other you will undoubtedly encounter Love Busters.

What are Love Busters? Here is a short list to better help you understand what Love Busters are and how to avoid them:
Selfish Demands
Disrespectful Judgments
Angry Outbursts
Annoying Habits
Independent Behavior
Dishonesty

How do you communicate that your Emotional Needs aren't being met; or that your spouse is continually Love Busting? To communicate to one another you need to understand The Policy of Radical Honesty.

The First Part of the Policy of Radical Honesty is: Emotional Honesty.
The Second Part of the Policy of Radical Honesty is: Historical honesty.
The Third Part of the Policy of Radical Honesty is: Current Honesty.
The Fourth Part of the Policy of Radical Honesty is: Future Honesty.

When you are truley ready to restore your marriage you need to understand and construct a Policy of Joint Agreement between you and your spouse

Under the POJA, you need to understand what The Giver and The Taker are.

Once restoration begins under the Policy Of Joint Agreement (POJA), you and your spouse need to prepare you minds for marriage to be able to negotiate under the POJA. To negotiate under the POJA, you and your spouse need to understand the 'state of mind' the marriage is in.

The First State of Mind in Marriage is Intimacy.
The Second State of Mind in Marriage is Conflict.
The Third State of Mind in Marriage is WithDrawal.

Some issues you might encounter under negotiation are also listed.
How does one spouse lead the other back to Intimacy?
The Policy of Undivided Attention.
How to Survive Incompatibility.
How to Overcome Annoying Behavior.
What to Do with an Alcholic Spouse.
Can a Marriage be saved by one Spouse. (Part 1)
Can a Marrage be saved by one Spouse. (Part 2)
Having Trouble with the Policy Of Joint Agreement?
Following Four Guidelines for Successful Negotiation.

So now that you have a basic understanding of what is going to happen in the process of rebuilding your marriage, you should seek additional counseling first as well as support in the Forums. You should contact the Harley's for counseling. Also, the Harley's recommend some informative books to help you restore your marriage.

So who is this guy Dr. Harley anyways?

If you have anymore questions, feel free to ask your questions, no matter how small, silly or stupid you think that they are.

Welcome to MB

note: Although I put this together in a handy quick reference page, none of the above is the work of my own. It is the property of Marriage Builders, Inc., <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Blah,

I let my H (Xws) read your thread a few days ago. His response was not as 'kind' as mine (believe it or not). He doesn't post here at MB much but does read it periodically. I believe you already had a few WS here posting to you earlier.

You ask how to stop? U just do. Cold turkey. How to fill that gap? Ask for help. Create a support group. Include everyone who is pro your M. Even the dog. Change your habits, take up a new hobby (preferably one with your W). Think of her needs instead of yours. It will be new for you and you may faulter a bit but that's ok. At least you are trying. Don't expect it to be all positive. Your W may now have anger, let her have it.

R U 2 seeing an MC? Have you talked with Steve or Jennifer? Have your read the book His Needs/Her Needs by Dr W. Harley?

Have you and your W taken the Emotional Needs questionnaire?

L.

L,

Glad your xWSH is reading here some also. That's great. Guess we posted at the same time also <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Blah,

You still up?

Orchid,
No, wife and I started counseling with a pastor, but he found out I had resumed contact w/OW. We are not going to counseling now because I have not gone no-conact with OW. I know I need to s#%t or get off the pot. I think

Orchid,
No, wife and I started counseling with a pastor, but he found out I had resumed contact w/OW. We are not going to counseling now because I have not gone no-conact with OW. I know I need to s#%t or get off the pot. I think I will got to a MC to dicuss my situation and then bring my wife in if I am able to cut OW out of my sad life.

Thanks

Joe

Hi there "Blah" .... love the name by the way! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Here's what I see.

Blah is trying to choose. Blah is unable to choose because he is afraid. Blah is afraid he will not be able to choose. Blah is afraid he will choose wrong. Blah is afraid when he chooses, someone will be hurt, or mad, or both.

Blah is living his life as a fear-based individual.

Sound about right?

Where, in all of this choosing, do you apply your standards for behavior? What are your self-standards for behavior?

If you decided to base your choice using this criteria: what is the morally correct thing to do?..... what answer would arise?

Base your decision on your ethical foundation, not upon your fears of "what if?".

Be a man. Be courageous. Be strong spiritually and morally. Be someone YOU will admire as you look back upon these times, years from now.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

PS .... "It's too hard for me." is not allowed.

Pepp,
Thanks. Yes I am king-ambivalence.

As far as morals and ethics, these are concepts that are also changing for me (early MLC?) Not that I want to be immoral but I used to be too strictly moral and compromising about my own needs before the affair.
My self-standards for behavior now seem pretty narcissistic.
No, my behavior doesn't adhere to my normal moral or ethical guidelines, it is a complete reversal. My behavior now is not condusive to a moral or loving relationship...for anyone in my life....which puts me back into the position of either

1. divorcing my PATIENT wife to release her from the pain,

2. ending it with my lover to make amends to my wife and everyone else I have hurt, or

3. ending it with both of them because I have wronged them both and I see more clearly than them how poorly I have treated them. I mean if either of them had done what I've done, I would leave them forever (I bet that doesn't suprise you).

The morally correct thing to do is to be fully honest to myself first about what is real, possible, and worth my full-hearted effort of love and care. If I cannot trust myself, then how can I trust anyone else, especially to meet the primary relationship needs for me. I know I know...."you can and will do it" is that what you are going to say? Thanks pepp

Blah34- you said :adgirl,
You are right about the no contact. I don't think its ok to bring another woman in, neither does my wife or my mistress......

Well obviously you and mistress DID think it was ok, because you did it. Or you didn't think it was ok, but you went a little nutty and didn't think of the consequences of your A and you did it....I think the latter is true....I don't think that anyone intentionally says Hey, I want to ruin my marriage and make a mess...At least I hope they don't.

Regardless, you and your mistress both messed up, your W is the one who either needs you to cut off OW and show her how much you love her, or get a divorce so you will quit hurting her. Pepperband's post, I loved, because he really gets after the issues and shows you what needs to be done. It will be hard and you may wonder the "what ifs" but I dont' want you to be like my ex-WH. He wondered what if, so he continued to cheat while playing with my emotions, and now OW is pregnant with his OC and he is completely torn up. He SAYS he would give anything to take it all back- I don't know right now if he is still in fog or if he means it- but overall ,he is a very miserable person right now. Don't fall into that trap.....

Jumping in here....

H2Y, great post. It's destined to become a MB classic. Thanks.

Right one, Orchid, Pepper.

blah, I can tell that your life feels pretty lousy to you right now. It will continue to feel awful until you commit to a decision.

Let me ask you. If you leave your wife,do you truly believe the OW will want the same kind of relationship you want? Do you really believe she wants you like you want her? Do her actions say that she will?

Are you willing to reap the contempt and disrespect from your family and friends for a woman who may not want you in a long-term meaningful way? What if you throw away your marriage, then she throws away you?

Are you really prepared to give up everything for OW? You are the verge of doing so. Please think really deeply about this. After all, nothing less than your self-respect and your future peace of mind are very much at stake.

If you cannot answer a confident, resounding YES! to these questions, then you will be making an absolutely HUGE mistake by continuing to jeopardize what is of real value in life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I mean I should release my wife rather than keep hurting her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's the hard truth, blah. You don't own your wife. You don't have the power to keep or release her. The truth is, your wife's choice to continue the marriage is totally up to HER, not you.

You have already broken the covenant you made with her. Your original marriage is dead. She is rapidly learning what your character really is. Believe me, in her mind and heart, she is thinking 24/7 about whether or not you are man enough for HER. Your future is very much in doubt with her regardless of the fact that she is giving you the benefit of the doubt.

You see, blah, you are thinking of this totally from your position. You are not in control of the future of your marriage, your wife is. And she is suffering more deeply than you could even BEGIN to imagine.

You are complaining because you can't have everything you want at the time when she is suffering a very real, very bitter betrayal at your hands. Stop feeling sorry for yourself, and think of her. Your situation is due to your failure to protect youself from your own weakness (as Dr. Harley says). YOU caused your own pain, then YOU caused your wife's pain. SHE DOES NOT DESERVE THIS. If you have any strength of character and any self-respect, you will stop your adulterous behavior today.

Cold turkey, blah. It's the only way. Write a no contact letter tonight and start to rebuild what you have damaged. You owe nothing to that OW. You owe everything to your wife. You owe everything to yourself.

Once you cut the OW out of your life, people here will stand by you as you heal. They really will. Tough? Sure. Scary? Sure. You can do it. It's time to get started.

Wishing you the correct choice,
Estes

<small>[ May 07, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Estes49 ]</small>

Love the name, too. Blah-- I posted this to you on May 4th, but you never replied. The post below is the last thing said on that short thread.

I truly am annoyed at you right now. Your wife still loves you, and is patient...and yet you can't end it with OW. Do you know HOW MUCH many of us WS's would give for such a spouse? Please, wise up...and end it. As someone else here said, you just do it, cold turkey.

I thought I could never end it with OM. He'd been 'close' to me for FOUR years. I did, and it was a huge relief. You can do it too. The relief is wonderful. You have , unlike me, the added bonus of a loving spouse who STILL wants you.

Take care, and please read below-- my HEARTFELT words to you the other day.

------- Previous post---- to Blah---never answered <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Blah,
I've been posting here since last September. I'm still hanging around here for support . I came here to MB far too late in the whole mess I made with my life. My exHusband wants nothing to do with me. To think that I left a good marriage for an affair with a serial cheater is a horrible burden to bear. You're going to be in the same position if you don't snap out of it! There's an irony in life. I started the A due to my self-proclaimed loneliness, and now I'm more alone than ever. You're going to be in the same boat, if you don't simply stay away from OW.

Again, as I told you yesterday, you need to first of all acknowledge how LUCKY you are to have a woman who forgives you-- your wife! Write the letter to the OW, share it with your wife, and mail it. If she calls you, hang up. If you need to, change your number. (I had to hang up on OM a few times--after a four year A. He'd been my only emotional support for years.) I'm not prone to dramatics, but when I ended it with OM I remember falling on my knees and praying to the good Lord for strength. I also foolishly thought that my exHusband would forgive me. He didn't. Nonetheless, I feel better for doing my best to make my life a life of dignity, again.

You mentioned on your other thread that you're a recovering alchoholic. Please return to the meetings. GO daily if need be!!! Isn't there a concept in AA that people have to hit rock bottom before they decide they need to quit drinking. Perhaps in this situation with your wife and OW, you haven't hit rock bottom, so you are still sitting on the fence. The problem is that in the situation of infidelity, it doesn't work quite the same as in alcoholism. That is to say, I didn't end it with OM until I hit 'rock bottom'. By then, it was too late to save my marriage. With affairs you have a spouse who's involved in the whole mess. With drinking, YOU alone can determine when you can get help and mend things. With an affair, you'll need your spouse's support to rebuild your marriage. You STILL HAVE HER SUPPORT. You may not have it, in a month, let's say--if you choose to hit 'rock bottom' in this mess. Your wife will be gone, the OW will be with a new conquest-and you'll be alone. Just my take on it...

Send that letter. Wait, you have no address where to send it, right? If not, make the call in front of your wife- hang up--and then if she calls back hang up on her. IF need be, change your number.
These people give up surprisingly easily. Trust me. There's always fresh conquests around the corner.

Take care,
H_P

pepperband said...(wise thang that she is...)

Blah is trying to choose. Blah is unable to choose because he is afraid. Blah is afraid he will not be able to choose. Blah is afraid he will choose wrong. Blah is afraid when he chooses, someone will be hurt, or mad, or both.

ark adds to this mix...

the fact that Blah wants garuntees...

blah wants us (the collective) to tell blah which woman to choose...while he has a fence post so far up his posterior...(well that's a whole other post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) the exact depth of the fence post on wich fence post sitters sit... I digress as usual....

blah wants us the collective to garuntee him... with out a shadow of a doubt...

if he chooses his wife she will fullfill all his needs for ever and ever and ever.

blah want us the collective to garuntee him...that if he goes no contact with OW that he is not giving up his last and only chance for eternal happiness.....you know the soul mate connection <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

blah's got really good defense mechanisms in place...
he's got the poor me it's so hard for me to be in this position groove down pat...

And then he goes for the after all the pain I've caused both of them..perhaps both would be better off if I just disappeared position down pat...

I will garuntee that Blah sure does get a lot of attention from two women...all over his indecisiveness...that he gains a lot sittin on the old fence...as two women waffle about what to do about him....I think you thrive on your wife's and OW's way of making new ultimatums, threats, and definitive statements....it is interesting to see what they will come up with next eh?

Blah, life comes with no garuntees ....and in fact it is not choices that define our lives...it is action that define our lives and us...

both relationships are doomed while you continue to engage in behavior that is harmful and hurtful to yourself and others...

none of your relationships stand a chance in hell till YOU take the fence post out of your posterior and decide to engage in actions that define you as a honorable, decent person...

YOu want to make this complicated and as if it is this huge earth shattering definitive moment of you ever having happiness, joy, love, and lust in your life....when it's not that huge of decision....your decision is only the smallest tiniest step in a huge process which will have many changes, valleys, highs, and lows...that is life my friend...

YOU sound like a high school girl deciding here and now that if she doesn't get asked to the prom...well dang her life is over...and surely there is nothing to live for....

Your decision comes from YOU deciding what type of person you want to be...what you want your actions to say about you...what actions you can live with and look at each and every day in the mirror...REGARDLESS of who you lay with at night...

As far as I'm concerned...dude you are MARRIED...and in my book that is a defining action to be live dto the fullest....

Go listen the Eagles old track.."I can't tell you why" That's what I hear in my head every time I read any of your posts...

ARK

grow up

Blah you still here?

Blah,

Please don't stop posting. I wish my WH had listened to something besides the sound of his own rationalizations.

The point is, it's not going to be easy. You keep waiting for some method, some magic trick to do this so that it won't be frighteningly hard and difficult. This may be the most difficult thing you ever have to do in your life. There are no shortcuts or easy ways. You have to bite the bullet.

There's no way out of it, except to do what my husband did: drift with the current, and wait for me to ask him to move out. That's where you're headed, if you don't take charge of your own life.

Estes- those were good questions, am I willing to risk everything for her and do I think she will want the same relationship that I want and so forth, because you are right...I will HAVE TO make a change eventually, and you are asking what change will I really be able to live with, with no fantasy..just reality.

H_P- sorry I didn't reply. I guess I don't want to look at the possibility that I may be losing a chance to share a simple and uncomplicated life with my wife and like Estes said...on the verge of committing to someone I am unsure will be my true partner. Its crazy, I am starting grad school in one month, I am taking government loans, and refusing to have my wife help me (even just financially, nevermind emotionally)...all so that I can maintain "what I have???" with my lover. Blind.

Anyway, I am seeing a new counselor today to help me look at all of this. thank you all for caring

_blah