TTHO, I think that your response to WH was kind of sweet!! LOL! And you do catch more bees with honey, (the question is do ya want the bee? just a joke). But you sounded in a much better mood than before. Stay there.

You asked about my current situation. It is far better. Using a lot of information from this web site is helpful.

To clarify problems, you have to cut away a lot of the self-pity and look at what actually happened. That is not to say that we should not feel sorry for ourselves at one time or another. Just when self pity is becoming your lifestyle,... it is unattractive. And I don't want my friends to see me and say oh there is poor Sally, she has such problems, you know what I mean. You can't build yourself up when people approach you with ..Are you doing ok? all of the time. If you were feeling good, when they say that you start to feel o ya I AM miserable aren't I... I need to feel that what I am basically is a good mom and have a lot going for me even though marriage is on the blinks.

When you get to the fact of how marriage started to go bad, we had to fix the problem much like a mechanic repairs your car engine.

Now neither my husband nor I is a mechanic but if we had someone professional show us how to fix it we probably could. Oh, but it takes the right tools doesn't it. So, we had to get some tools. We have to evaluate if we wanted to keep the engine and the car for that matter. The thing is old and broken. But we like it because it carries us around, fits the whole family, the dog and even if some little things like dents and the dog chewed on it...

Well if we go to that extreme to fix a dumb car and have such value on a thing, why not apply that same effort and sequence on something as important as my marriage?

When I got angry at my spouse for any reason, it turned into a ball of fire. I have an ablitiy to keep it eternal! Not so good for MBing. He also had the ability to hurt without himself feeling a thing! No empathy and kept himself safe by always taking off to where I don't know.

So do you think we could make marriage succesful doing this stuff? It is a miracle we have good children but they did learn some ineffective communication skills from us, which we are also working on esp. at the dinner table where you can see and feel the results. Respect and taking turns talking, listening without harsh criticisms and judgements.

Before we started to repair our marriage, we were running low on survival. The poor skills and lack of skills were killing every pore of potential we had.

To continue on the road that was saturated with all the bad feelings, resentments, feeling need to revenge, anger that was always present or not hard to bring to surface smothered us to the point of do we fix it or throw it out.

We decided to do the things that would repair and found a wonderful counselor who listened and observed and suggested tools to use to repair and got us to see the flaws in delivering information to each other...the listening and downplaying the power struggle of who is heard and who is right, who is wrong. Cutting through all of the improper things and getting on a road that seemed like how we were before marriage.

But we had the flaws then too. New skills with training, educating and making it part of our lives,..forever!! I always want to read and learn about these things.

Does this make any sense? wflower

WFLOWER,
Your reply again was great. I'm not sure if I want the bee or not - sometimes he stings too much if you know what I mean. I thought I did well last night and this am with his mood - a good step for me. I have definately been feeling sorry for myself. Why me etc. I know my part in the breakdown of my marriage and I would like a chance to fix it.
You're right about the marriage fixing - I want to - right now my wh doesn't. He doesn't want to fix the old car - he wants to trade in the slow running, dented , faithful old station wagon for a new convertible. That's what makes me so angry. But I am feeling stronger today - hopefully I'll be able to keep it up - ok - I will keep it up.
I am glad things are working out for you. I really do appreciate your wisdom.
TTHO

I also worked a lot on my self esteem issues. I know I am a good person but why all of this with my spouse. So I did a personal rehaul, ha ha like the engine!! You know they work like new when you do a rehaul. I am being silly here but seriously, I lossed 30 lbs.; in a healthy way ...cutting out cookies and ice cream and potato chips. (This is making me hungry) and added yogurt and sushi and salad with meat and fruits for lunch instead of big sandwiches and entrees. The pounds burned with walking too.
So I guess you could say I have been practicing self restraint, control as well. I also do not drink alcohol any more, neither does my spouse. The habits we have either enable or disable our potential. Like in the Harley article. My spouse likes the part about how he talks of how predictable an old guy is!! It is true, the habits we have can be real annoying to our family esp. when we get old. You can think of ten old people you know with those predictable habits. They don't see it in themselves but they drive you up the wall!

Our problems were happening for years. I did feel that there was not going to be anything good coming out of it. I felt at the end of my rope. I tried changing how I did things, in positive ways, and it was received well but he rarely returned anything just said thank you. It was the giver taker item. He said he notice a change in me and us but I only saw what I was doing cause he still was doing some bs that I hated. I started this before I knew of MBs by the way. I found this site, in Jan. told him about it but didn't get to the nuts and bolts of it until after a big blow out. He was postponing efforts to improve marriage, the doing what I knew we had to do or we would die as a married couple. So the big blow out.

I do not recommend this method. But we did not know what we would end up with. I took the bull by the horns and called on the counselor. It was the real beginning, and the end to the old mess we made together.

I hope that this helps you somehow, but I want you to know that I believe in miracles. Miracles are beautiful things that happen in life and if you are keeping your eyes open and in my case closing my mouth is helpful a lot. lol....They are there , the miracles, for your taking. That is just what I feel and especially now with all that my S and I have been through. I believe in the power of God in my life and what Jesus taught us. Forgiveness is divine and I am not divine but I can have it as a gift, to use ...It has been a process. And it does not end I think.

P.S. the convertable your husband wants will get OLD too!!

WFLOWER
We have been having problems for years too - basically I got ignored for 10 years and then wh told me he thought I had an affair years ago - never even came close - he held that in for all those years and finally a few years ago told me - I of course was angry - did try to make some changes but not as hard as I could have. So know when it may be too late I am really trying.
Finally last week I told my mom what was going on - decided that if I was going to do this then I needed to tell someone and I picked her- now I must say I did it when I was extremely hurt and angry - my h was angry that I told her-even though I asked him 3 times if I should - but then all of a sudden thought we could try again - or at least I am trying again. I just didn't want it to end with us both being mean to each other. Does that make sense? I am in IC but H won't go.
Your replies really help and I do appreciate it.
I know the new convertible will get old but she still has 11 less years on her than I do. But then again my wh has 15 years more on him than the new convertible.

Lord have mercy! Just keep doing things the best you can. You cant control him and even if you could would it make it better?

He should take a look at what is going on around himself better. What you have been working towards, the future together etc. But his rational it doesn't jive with married life. If he thought you had an affair, did you give him reason to doubt you and was he having one and just making himself feel better.

Whatever the reason, you could have used intense counseling back then. But even after 20 years of muddling through you can still come out with success together or apart. I would hope for together, but if the guy won't make amends. You can not make him. But you have choices and based on better background than him. IF you did not cheat on him, you have a clean slate and can get a moderate convertable for yourself. It would work out better hopefully. But what do you really want and need? And be realistic,(forget about the car talk!lol)...

WFLOWER
Quite a story huh - I'm not saying I'm innocent in all of this - not by a long shot. No I never had an affair and I'm positive he wasn't either - we had 2 couples that we hung with - one of the wife's had a revenge affair with her husbands best friend. I didn't know it until it all hit the fan - had a suspiscion but nothing concrete - my h thought I knew and because I hung with her that I was doing something too - one of the idiots he works with suggested that - Like I said I didn't find this out until 10 years later. I tried for years to get him to tell me what was wrong - he wouldn't - then I got angry and emotional and acted like a complete idiot at times. This was all on top of dealing with our son who is ADHD - when he finally told me two years ago I had gained a ton of weight - emotional eater that I am - and really felt crappy about myself - he wanted me to make some changes - but at that point I was pretty angry about the affair thing and that he let this suspiscion cause the damage it did. So I didn't do as well as I should have I guess. ADHD son left home last year in January - February he's in love with this ow - I told him I always thought that it would be the time for us to get our marriage back and he said he looked at it as me not needing him anymore. I asked him if he had this in the back of his mind for years and he told me no but I'm not sure if I believe him. Does this make any sense? You're right we should have done counseling years ago but I couldn't even get him to tell me what was wrong.

You're right - I can't force him to do anything he isn't willing to do - that's why when he chose to stay this summer if felt good. I didn't beg or plead - told him he knew what I wanted but if he had to go he could.

I want someone to love me and cherish me - to want to protect me. I always hoped it was him but now I know better. I will get stronger and make it through this.

One more car thing - I had just read your post and went back to my inbox and there was an ad for new 2003 cars - how appropriate.

TTHO

We have some similarities in our stories and yet there are some differences.

I think you do need to think of protecting yourself, and yet if the miracle of spouse coming back be open for it but don't expect it?

I also looked at a bunch of books about affairs and such before Christmas, I was in the spirit of things, not. But got to the point where I was getting more healthfully selfish, self preservation... and told him what you just said... I want someone to love me and all of that. Because what I got from him was not a good definition of what love is....Just taking what he felt like and leaving. Me alone and boy I felt ANGRY. I don't know where to draw the line in terms of healthfully selfish to get the best result. In my prayer to God I ask for help somehow, not knowing which way He wants me to go exactly but I feel like I am not too far from the ball park if I can just make good decisions and like you did last night...don't make decisions necessarily, just go with the good feeling.
Feel joy in the good and get away from what weighs you down, it may be physically it may be spiritually.

Was it positive to not pick a fight with him last night and did you enjoy each other just a little. I would want him to give me respect and you to give some, without getting bowled over in any way by him.

WFLOWER,
It was very positive not to pick a fight - I always end up asking too many questions and a fight ensues and then things are said that don't need to be. I cry, can't sleep and then wake up miserable. I felt better about they way things went last night. I don't like it when he ignores me but if I would have asked him questions I'm sure he would have answered me but just decided to let him wonder. I do want respect and for the most part I think we give each other that but knew that last night wouldn't have been one of those times.

I have so many affair and relationship related books that I could open a book store. Really thought some of them helped but not sure about others. Still have some I haven't read about letting go. Will get to those soon. I do need to get more selfish. 3 months ago I would have tol you my whole world would fall apart if he left - now I know that I will be ok even though it's not what I want.

I am trying to learn to protect myself emotionally - am hoping for a good outcome but am counting on nothing.

Thanks again
TTHO

TTHO: Don't worry too much about the fast new convertible. You ought to see what some of the maintenance bills are on those slick things!

A.M.Martin
Thanks - but according to wh - not this one - perfect in everyway you know - low maintenance - low mileage(of course he doesn't believe about the 3 other times she has done this) - probably takes the lowest octane gas possible. Ok - maybe a vent - thanks for the comment - I think you told me in a previous post to read about Mother Theresa - that's what I call ow - either that or saint Theresa - laughed a little when I read that.
TTHO

OKAY TTHO
I have to give you this.
KareRun02@aol
There are just too, too many similiarities here.
It may help you and I in some way, who knows.

There has to be a script that goes with the WS lifestyle.

How can there be so many PERFECT adulterettes out there??

Weird for me.
I was feeling more confident with H being gone. Thinking, okay, I can do this.
Yesterday, something clicked, and all the sudden I'm feeling miserable again.

When they move out, Does the WS really, truly have no emotion for their spouse?
I find it so hard to believe he feels nothing, absolutely nothing for me.

Karen

KEB, that's what I'm feeling, too! All I can do is Plan A -- in the few opportunities I have -- and get on with my own life. Start exploring all the things I can do without dragging an anchor of an adulterous H around.

The OW is a known nutter, and her behavior in breaking up this marriage was bloodthirsty and cutthroat -- but no, no, she lives in the ether, and is sweet and selfless. And when she gave him b**w jobs while he told me he was having lunch in a restaurant ... well, it was SPIRITUAL. Not like me.

I'm told some of them come out of the fog, and maybe he will. And maybe I'll be there. I love him greatly, but jeez! There are other things to do with one's life!

I really wonder if they EVER feel any pain for what they have done.

For me, my H feels no remorse whatsoever.
He has never even told our children he is sorry.
He is cold, as cold gets.

How can I have been married to someone for 18 years. He always, always told me how attracted he was to me.
Now, he acts as if I'm the one that has done this. He acts like I betrayed him.

I hate it!

Thanks for the reponse.

Karen

Guess what happens if your out in that convertable and that weather turns bad? YA.

Good Morning - well my wh is leaving today - had a visit from ow yesterday to take herself out of the picture - about 14 months too late. My wh said in front of her that he didn't want to be here and that nothing is going to change his heart. So he is leaving. I thought I could make enough changes in 3 months to make a difference but he made it perfectly clear yesterday that was never going to happen. I hope making him leave is the right thing. I just am at the end of my ropes.
TTHO

TTHO, How are you feeling about this. I can imagine. You know there are too many chefs in your kitchen. The OW came over your house? What? The reality of what is going on there s#@ck$. God love you. Do you have someone to be with? Someone that knows you and loves you, you should have to share some time with.

WFLOWER: I guess you could say I'm a wreck - came to work today - I have missed quite a bit since all of this started and decided that I needed to be busy and not home dwelling. I am so sad that it has come to this.

Yeah - it was like the ow was couseling us yesteray. I don't know maybe her heart was in the right place but why now all of a sudden. I think her h is feeding her with a line of crap so she decided to be the good guy in this and take the moral high road and take herself out of the picture. All it did was make it worse. But I guess it's better than the limbo dance I've been doing. He would stay through the summer if I asked him too - but after the things he said in front of her yesteray I don't know if that's a good idea or not. He made it pretty clear that there is absolutely nothing that is going to change his mind.
TTHO

<small>[ May 12, 2003, 08:40 AM: Message edited by: T. T. H. O. ]</small>

Sounds so, so familar.
My H told me the last year, our marriage was PERFECT! Not one complaint!
But, he was leaving anyway.
If it would have been like this two years ago, before he left in mind, things would have been different.
So much for forgiveness!

All I can hope, and pray is that this bimbo, who by the way has not left her husband yet, rips my H's heart out of his chest and hands it to him.
I sincerely hope this for my H.

He does not care how deeply he hurts his daughters. All he cares about is himself!

I wish you luck. Maybe since you gave him the out, he will think hard.
Awful nice of him to offer to stay the summer though!

KEB