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Hi Mimi

thanks for your continued input and support. I have not technically just asked her to leave - I have given her the choice to stay but NC. A subtle distinction I know, but (I hope?) the difference between a LB and a boundary. There are good reasons too why I have adopted this stance, as discussed above.

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not feeling too good now - stayed up late and didn't get much sleep - going to the Doc tomorrow and will get anti-D's I think.

Avoided WW this morning, effectively ignoring her (probably a LB, but just was too upset and annoyed to talk). She asked me as she left not to do 'anything stupid', i.e. telling some of the people I mentioned to her last night and that we would talk later. I told her she had a stay of execution - I wouldn't tell them till we had talked.

I feel like confronting OM now, but am not going to. This anger wouldn't make for a useful 'meeting' I think. I am toying with the idea of sending him a message on his cell-phone though - threaten to tell his mother and his neighbours. Partyboy lives at home with his mother (since leaving his GF's house) and has no job. Ha, he might have to face some real life now! I know he is copping **** from his sister, who I told yesterday, and who lives in the house also.

Is this just the anger and lack of sleep talking, or is this something I really should do - make him finish or it, face it in all its technicolor glory. Me telling his sister is the only negative consequence he has had to experience so far - and he had 10 days warning of that one and a chance to tell her himself, but chose not to.

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update

WW is still here. Got home from work yesterday evening and she just let rip. Totally irrational stuff for the most part, but I just listened and stayed calm - didn't LB (well at least at first).
Some examples:

- We're not joined at the hip, so I can do this if I want. We are not I replied but we are married, till death us do part etc. How dare I do/say this - I don't go to church and here I am bringing up 'religion'. Fine I said, it is also a legal contract for life if you prefer to look at that way. So that is all you think of our marriage? No, it is (about) much more than that - it is a personal committment. There you go again talking about morals and religion. We'll have to agree to differ was my closer
- A relationship is about 2 people putting in work. It can't be just one person. I agree I said, it needs two people communicating, and if there is a problem talking about it and trying to solve it jointly. I did try she said, and now I'm sick of trying and don't want to anymore. I said that I wasn't aware of the problems, so we must have some communication issues and that there was more trying that we could do, involving professional help. what do they know was her reply. Every case is different and I don't want to be lectured on my life. I know what I think and feel.
- Just because our society doesn't like what I do, fine. They're not in my shoes, nobody is - I know what I think and they don't. I have to do what is in my heart.
- There is nothing I can do if my actions mean my family and friends want to turn against me, and I hurt them. I replied that that was not the case - she could choose not to continue those actions, so there was a choice. And me not be happy she said? I told her I wasn't telling her what to do, just saying that she had a choice about her actions.
- How dare I tell OM's sister. We talked about this 10 days ago I said - why I wanted her to know. We agreed that she should. You told OM this, and he decided not to tell her till now - his choice. HIS CHOICE? (screamed!) - you didn't give him the chance. You had to do it your way, to be vindictive and just to hurt her. It was up to him when she was told. Im sorry I said, we talked about this, and I presumed she knew when I approached her yesterday. She is upset by what she heard, not by who told her. You have no idea about that relationship, she said, about what she is capable of. Anyhow, she just has to get used to it. What she or anyone thinks, is no reason for me to do or not do something. I since talked to OM's sister, and to OM's SIL, as well as OM's sister calling my sister. She is emphatically not upset with me for telling her (she actually said thanks) but with him (and WW) for doing this. She is not talking to OM who has told her it is none of her business. Guess he's feeling the heat a little now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
- Tell whoever you like, I don't care any more. You and your support group of cheerleaders. Turn them all against me, I don't need them. This is 10 minutes after telling me I was vindictive for telling two of my longest standing friends who I have avoided for a month now because of this. 'How am I supposed to face them now?'
- How dare I bully her by suggesting our D would have false hopes by her coming back. Our D was fine. I told her that was what I believed and she was entitled to what she believed. I suggested we seek her counsellors or other professional opinion
on it. She dismissed this as 'textbook people' and what would they know. I don't need someone else to tell me about my child.
During this hour long tirade I managed not to raise my voice once (although it was hard <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ), although I probably came close to being disrespectful a few times. She apologised 30 mins later for being 'hotheaded' and said that she was at the end of her tether on this one and just couldn't go on - she had been 'pushed' as far as she could go. I said that I knew what it felt like to be at that point and that it was hard to be calm when you are there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

She then left to buy cigarettes and phone OM. She came back with a chocolate bar for me and a calmer attitude.

We sat together to watch some TV later. She told me that she felt I was very strong and brave and that if I had done this to her she would probably have jumped off a cliff by now. I said that I might have said the same thing 6 months ago, but when you are put to it, your love comes to the fore and gives you the strength to go on.

She then asked me about cancelling her cell-phone and getting a new one. I told her there was a contract to run there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> She replied that she would stop calling OM on our house phone and on the cell phone. I enquired why and she replied that it was because they were ours and it was my bill too - he could ring her from now on (that should be interesting - when he racks up a large bill and has to ask his mother to pay it for him - ha ha!)

She asked me to promise I wouldn't tell OM's mother. I wouldn't. I told her I wasn't going to make a promise I might have to break - that I wasn't vindictive or spiteful, and wouldn't tell her to hurt her or just to hurt him. I would only tell her if I thought it would help us, and that at the moment I didn't see that it would, but I ever felt that it would help, then I would do it. She wasn't happy but accepted it.

I asked her if she would promise me (for what it was worth) not to have OM in our house. She said he wouldn't come near here. I told her I didn't believe that - that 6 months ago (even 3 months ago FFS) she would have said he wouldn't have an affair with his friends wife, that he wasn't that sort of person. That got me accused of labelling, and what type of person did that make WW? I replied that was up to her to decide, that I loved her and didn't need a label - she was my wife. I possibly LB-ed a little by saying I didn't give a f*&k about OM, if he didn't have an effect on her (and us) that I would never give him another thought - he wasn't worth it.

Going to bed, she came over to rub my arm. I didn't know how to react, so I just looked confused. She took my hand and gave it a squeeze. I thanked her, said goodnight to her and wished her a good sleep. She lingered on for a minute or two at the door, repeating goodnights and looking at me (she always took an age to say goodbye in any situation!!)

Overall, I think I have had my boundary breached - but I can't really enforce it any more than I have. I did register calmly with her that I would prefer she is not (sleeping) in the house because of the effect her actions have on me and our D. I think that is all I can do. Plan A-ing as best I can, but feeling very low at times.

She told a friend of ours yesterday - don't know what exactly (she said everything), but friend has said she will meet me in the next few days to talk. The groom for this weeks wedding rang her sis (I guess all our phones were busy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) last night wondering if we were going. I was sure we had accepted this invite 3 months ago (before EA started!), but obviously not. I will ring him today and say we are not going - I did consider it, but overall I think it is too much for me right now and I don't want to be weepy or moping on his big day. I think I will withold on most details for now and tell him I will talk to him in a few weeks.

Anyhow, thats the update. I think I will try going back to bed and catching another hour or two of sleep.

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ok. got up this morning to a markedly different atmosphere in the house. WW smiled at me and asked if I was ok - she had heard me get up twice in the night and wondered if I had slept at all. Then she hugged me.

She spent a few minutes looking for a particular piece of my clothing that I had enquired about last night, as I had looked for it and couldn't find it. I didn't ask her to look but she did anyhow.

We exchanged some pleasantries (almost like normal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ) and she asked me twice more before leaving if I was ok and would I go back to the doc to see about my lack of sleeping (I am going today as it happens). She hugged me again before leaving and kissed me on the cheek.

Going out the driveway as we were both getting stuff from our cars she called me over once again and asked was I ok (she saw that, as usual, I get emotional when she hugs or shows affection to me).

God this is hard - you see glimpses of the old person back, and then you know that she will back in touch with OM today and the alien-brain will return. I am really fighting now against an instinct to send him a message threatening to expose this business to his mother (ha ha that shows him up!, makes him sound like a child!) if he doesn't **** off.

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well I contacted the groom to be for the wedding invite later this week and told him we wouldn't be going, because things were ****ty at home. I wished him and his fiancee all the best for the day and explained to him that I wasn't in a good state right now to be going to a wedding, but that I would contact him when he got back from honeymoon.

Am off to the docs shortly, hopefully to get some anti-D's and then home. Will be interested to see what the mood is like this afternoon - it was fine this morning. Will be out for a lot of the evening, so that should solve that issue.

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well am now on anti-D's, guess they'll take a few days to kick in and then I'll be a smiley happy bunny!

Got a hug and a kiss and general kindness yesterday evening when I went home. I was out for a few hours after dinner. Know that WW was on the phone several times to OM while I was out. I don't know if it is my imagination, but it really seems to me like when she hasn't been talking to him for a while (even a few hours) that she is more like her old self and when she has talked to him recently she withdraws (emotionally and physically) from me. Anyone else noticed/experienced this?
A little withdrawn when I came home and went to bed shortly after - very little conversation (however I know she talked to him for 30 mins while in her room). I stayed up for a while and then went to bed.

This morning was civil but nothing more than that. I'm finding it difficult to maintain my plan A now that she has insisted on staying in the house. I think I will explain this to her (without mentioning plan A that is!) and ask her to move out again, but I don't expect to get a result. Since she is also now at home, she is doing more domestic stuff - meaning I don't get the chance to 'showcase' the improved me there as much, which is frustrating. It is also much harder for me to 'escape', as I feel I am sort of LB if I appear to be avoiding her by not being in the same room as her etc

I am also strongly fighting the urge at the moment to threaten (OM) to tell OM's mother, who he lives with. How much of a LB would this be and would it do me any good? I'm just not sure. OM is supposed to be away for a month with his mother from next week (she has to have some surgery on her legs and needs to have her diet controlled to lose some weight). No doubt there will be telephone contact during this time, but at least no physical contact. Part of me wonders if I tell his mother, this mightn't happen as well as enraging WW. Another part thinks maybe it would happen anyhow and he might just have to live for a month in misery with his mother. Boo hoo! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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had more thoughts on telling his mother!

A lot of my friends are saying don't do it, don't cause another innocent person pain - it won't achieve anything. Well I'm not a cruel, malicious or spiteful person so I would not do it unless I thought that it would achieve something worth the pain it caused. I get no pleasure in causing anyone suffering, even OM (although that might change if he was within range of a baseball bat right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

Just heard a story on the news that got me thinking though - about a mother who confronted a local drug dealer while trying to get her son off crack. Got me thinking.

take this scenario:

Joe is married to Mary and discovers that much to his horror, Mary has started taking crack, supplied by Tom. Joe tries to reason with Mary that Mary needs to stop, that it will ruin her life. In some of her lucid moments Mary agrees, but most of the time the craving is too strong and Mary goes back to Tom for more crack. Mary is obviously upset at the effect on Joe, but feels that her need for crack is more important and that Joe just needs to get used to it. Meanwhile Tom is reaping the rewards, and not suffering any. Tom has very little invested here, and could find someone else to deal with if so inclined, in fact has just dropped a long standing customer to supply Mary. Just about the only thing that Tom cares about is his family, who do not know that he is a crack dealer. He is especially concerned about his elderly mother who would be very upset that her son deals crack, especially while living under her roof. Joe has told Mary already that he needs Tom's sister to know as Joe sees Tom regularly and Tom's sister knows Mary, and knows that Joe and Tom were good friends. 10 days later Joe meets Tom's sister and calls her aside for a clear the air chat. Joe is shocked to find that Tom's sister doesn't know anything and tells her what is going on between Mary and Tom. She is very upset and sorry and gets very angry with Tom. Tom in turn relays this anger back through Mary to Joe. Tom is now feeling some heat for the first time.

Joe is now considering his position. Mary, despite some attempts to go cold turkey, is still on crack and Tom is still happily supplying her, albeit that things are strained at home with his sister. He could tell Tom's mother that Tom is a crack dealer and that Mary's life (as well as Joe and their children) is being ruined by this. Joe is considering sending a message to Tom that Tom had better stop supplying crack to Mary or Joe will tell Toms mother what is happening.

Tom now has 3 choices:

- He can stop dealing crack and take advantage of one of the many legitimate business opportunities available to him. It will mean a temporary hiccup, but it will 'protect' his mother from his secret, and restore relations with his family. Mary will probably go 'clean', but Mary's family will have a real shot at happiness.
- He can tell his mother his 'secret' himself and try to continue supplying Mary with crack till she dies (probably 6 months or so), or till she stops taking crack (probably 6 months too). His mother will be very upset and the exact consequences are unknown.
- He can continue 'as is' and see if Joe follows through, figuring that he can label (with Marys help) Joe as a vindictive person - for telling Toms mother the truth!

Now - substitute crack for adultery and you have my situation. I am Joe - do I make this threat?

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Good analogy Salerio, BUT (there is always one, isn't there?) the OM can still continue with the A and simply lie to his mother that he has already ended his relationship with your WW. His mother will probably beleive her son is telling her the truth (hey its her boy remember?) at which point you will have a decision to make, do you tell her that her son is still involved with your WW or do you let it go? If you do tell her again, she may once again get upset with her boy, and call him to task. BUT OM will probably lie to her (again) and simply tell her that it's your WW that won't let go of him. She, still wanting to beleive her son, will beleive him. If that becomes the case, there will be nothing left for you to tell her regarding her son and your WW. Of course, this scenario may or may not happen, but it is a very highly probable one, and for that reason I would recommend that you give serious thought about not telling her.

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Okay a query about showing emotion.

Since D-day (19th April) and even since the first 'chat' (C-day!) on 18th March where I was dropped the bombshell that WW thought the marriage was pretty much over, I have been very emotional and cried a lot, many times on my own and sometimes with WW, especially if she shows affection to me, or says something very wounding.

More recently, as I suppose I acclimatise to the whole situation (due in no small part to all the help here thank you all), I have been better able to control the emotion although the tears still flow.

My question relates to how much I should try and suppress this when dealing with WW. Is it something of a LB to come accross as 'clingy' or 'needy' or pathetic, or does it demonstrate the degree of my love and the hurt I am feeling?

To set a context, I suppose I would have cried several times during our 10 or so years together - once or twice for deaths, for our D's birth, and maybe 2 or 3 times when we have had a major argument over something.

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Good point TMCM - I hadn't considered that explicitly. I will need to think longer.

However two points that spring to mind are:
1) It will at least be another obstacle in the way of the A, and I can keep telling her - till she dismisses me as mad. He will also have to keep the A secret during this denial.
2) She will have OM's brother and sister who will probably know the truth (unless I lose their friendship by telling:()

Safety catch on anyhow - as I said earlier, the next month will probably see little or no face to face contact between OM and WW, so little to be gained by telling her right now, other than having him with a pissed off mother in a confined space <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

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I sense that your tears are honest, not manipulative.

Cry when you need to. Hold yourself responsible for your tears, not your wife. There lies the difference.

Once your anti-d starts working, you will be less likely to cry at the drop of a hat. The general rule of thumb is, once you find a drug that works well for you, you stay on it about a year, then wean off. Weaning off too soon not only gives you a sort of rebound depression, but may also blunt the drug's ability to work as well when you re-start it.

Pep

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In my humble opinion you should tell his mother. Affairs thrive on secrecy. His mother will make him feel ashamed of his actions. It will shake him up and look at himself. The more pressure you put on this pr**k the more chance that he will feel that this whole affair is not worth it. Right now you are ENABLING her to continue this affair without consequences. If she feels that the marriage is over than she should be treated as if she is divorced. In other words, she can't have it both ways. She needs a strong taste of reality.

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Some updates:

WW said the other night that she was no longer going to call OM from her cellphone or from the house phone - as 'they were our phones and in our name'. I said I didn't quite understand the logic of this, was she just going to call him from a payphone or what? She said no, he could ring her. This is her latest 'ploy'. She rings him, but hangs up before he answers. He sees the number and calls back. That way I can't see when she has been on to him, unless I sneak a look at her phone before she erases the most recently dialled number. Kinda pointless all round really, but the one amusing (I don't know how I can use that word around this issue, but it seems to fit) thing is that now F*&kface will be paying all the phone costs, and being a stay-at-home bum who lives with his mother, will probably have to be running cap in hand to her!

In general things are very difficult right now. I am finding it very difficult to be more than civil to her, as there is a lot of tension in the house. I felt ill with the stress today and had to come home from work and go to bed. WW is now gone out and more or less admitted to meet him. She gets annoyed at me for being upset - "please don't do this to me, I can't stand you being like this everytime I want to go out" - is that Fog talk or what!

I'm not really LB-ing, but I'm not doing much to deposit either. I do try and listen to her day-to-day, how work went etc talk, and am doing more work around the house I suppose. Only been on the happy pills two days now, so hopefully by next week I might be a bit more peppy in general and be able to be more of 'fun' housemate.

One thing that really pisses me off at the moment though is that with her going out, I am having to lie (or at least withold the truth) from our D if she asks where Mommy is going tonight/today etc. That and the fact that I have to put on a brave face for her (our D) means that I have to 'hide' from her at the difficult times which are quite frequent <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Please tell me this is normal, and coping with plan A gets easier. It's a hard road at the moment.

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In my opinion what you are doing is not normal. I would suggest that you consult with Dr.Harley and get a prescription of how to deal with your WW. Personally, I don't believe that Plan A will work while your wife is involved with the OM.

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Well another update, as much for me to vent as for anyone else to read. Hope people don't mind too much.

Friday night (my last post) she went out 'for a walk' and 'to meet some friends', leaving at about 7:30pm and still not home by 1:30 am. Sat morning was a case of tiptoing around so as not to have any conflict in front of our D. Sat afternoon, WW went to collect her mother who was coming to town to visit for the afternoon. Spent a lot of the day with her, and I went out out briefly after they got back. WW VERY tense, and edgy, even to the point of not seeming able to be in the same room as me. Admittedly, WW and her mother have always had a difficult relationship so I am sure her presence exacerbated matters. Talked to MIL a little, she is very upset about the situation and generally very sympathetic towards me. MIL stayed last night, necessitating WW sleeping on the couch. Know that they had a big argument/discussion after I went to bed. Heard raised voices and doors slamming a few times before the sleeping tablet kicked in.

WW more or less ignored me this morning, totally blanking me when I talked to her. I didn't react, just carried on as normal. MIL very emotional today. This afternoon, WW took MIL to her (WW) sisters house where she will be staying the next few days. Spent a few hours there and then returned home, before taking our D out for a couple of hours.

More civil over dinner, and had a talk afterwards. WW wants me to 'get over it' and stop being so down - "things can't go on like this". I replied that I know, but that I find the current situation very difficult and trying emotionally. She has decided she wants to separate but hasn't done anything about it (at least that I can see). She is still here and I am just being asked to accept that her relationship with OM will go on. WW then suggested that I could get a babysitter for tonight so I could go out - 'it would do you good'. Funny how I should get the babysitter, she just presumes that she can go out as she pleases. Same deal for tomorrow, I should get a babysitter if I want to go out.

Did well today in terms of not LB-ing, but not really making too many deposits - did some household chores and spent some QT with our D, making some chocolate chip cookies. OM is due to go away on Tuesday for a month (although will still be in phone contact I'm sure), so I'm going to just swallow hard and try to be on best behaviour for the next few days. Hopefully it will be somewhat easier over the next few weeks as I know that if she is going out, at least it is not to meet him. I suppose I have to expect some tense days of 'withdrawal' too. Am still finding things difficult, although I am trying to take someones advice (can't remember who it was) about trying to rise above it and watch things unfold as if it was someone elses life. Bizarre, but I think am doing it a little bit.

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Just want to say that I really know how you are feeling. I was in your same position several months ago and it really hurts. My WS finally left home on his own. It seemed like he was trying to make ME force him to leave so that he could feel less guilty. I refused to buy into this during my PLAN A.

I still can't say that PLAN B feels that much better to me. However, it's what's best for the marriage.

Hang in there.

We're living such a nightmare!!!!

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Hi Salerio,

I just got caught up on your sitch and I must say that I am sorry to hear of all the pain that you are going through. You have a lot more strength than I did when my WW was living at home and still seeing OM. I basically forced her to leave the house as soon as possible when she told me she refused to stop seeing OM. I wish I'd have had the strength to try and work things out when she was home. I can tell you this much, you have a much better chance to at least show changes to your W when you are living together. I speak from experience when I say that once one of you moves away, it becomes VERY difficult to show that you care for her and are changing for the better. It's not impossible for changes to come after this happens, but the odds go down.

So, good for you in trying to live with this, you have a lot of strength. But you should only do this for 6 months MAXIMUM I feel before it's Plan B time, when one of you must separate from the other. You write the Plan B letter, etc. For all the obvious ways she is flaunting the A in your face, you have every right to be upset and remove yourself from seeing it every day. I can't believe the way she is acting as far as assuming she can ALWAYS go out and making you get a sitter if you choose to do so. I can see she is VERY deeply involved in herself right now (deep fog) and doesn't care about anyone else. Very selfish, but also very WS-like.

As for exposing, I didn't do this as much as I'd liked -- It was recommended to me by a professional that exposing the A to as many people as possible is the way to go. And yes, the OM's mother was one of those people that I was told to contact about it. I never had the stones to do it, though, and I wish I did. Same with my W's and his co-workers, etc. Basically, the concept is to let as many folks they have contact with know that they are in an affair. It will make it more uncomfortable for them to be around one another.

I hope your anti-D's help, let us know. I never used them but have considered it at times. This is such a tough thing to be going through, I know how you feel and am sorry that your W is being so cruel to you. Just follow the steps and stick to the MB plan and you will be okay.

ALS

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Thanks ALS and Mimi

I have been trying hard in the last few days to just hang in there. Didn't talk much to WW yesterday, but didn't LB either - just explained to her that I didn't want to fight, was finding the whole situation very hard and didn't have much to say most of the time.

OM is now away for a month, so should be no physical contact at least. Hopefully that gives me a chance to work on meeting her needs in a less pressurised atmosphere.

Am still weighing up the options on telling more people. I think while he is away for th enext month, there is little to be gained - any of WW's friends I tell might just cause resentment on her part and lead to more tension in the house for the time being.

Too early to call on any effects of the anti-D's, although I do seem to be less ready to start crying now - could just be getting used to it. I have noticed though that I have been getting very drowsy during the day (I take them in the morning), so might have to move to taking them at bedtime.

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A quick update, not a lot to report

Things still tense at home, but we are at least talking (if not really communicating!). WW did not go to work yesterday - our D told me she spent a lot of the day in bed and writing in her diary. I guess she is in some kind of withdrawal now that OM is gone away. I'm fairly sure she did communicate by phone with him yesterday.

Not really sure what is in WW's head at the moment, she seems not to be able to bear to be in the same room as me. Very sad really. She sat with me last night for about 20 mins while I watched TV, but she just read a magazine, she didn't seem to want to watch anything or talk. She went to bed early, but got up 45 mins later and went outside for a cigarette.

I'm just trying to keep on an even keel, and maybe I will try and get her to do something at the weekend. I hope it is just some sort of withdrawal because F*&kface has gone away, and not another stage in our relationship - it will be very tough going if it is.

The anti-D's are making me drowsy and a bit nauseous (unusual for me), so I'm hoping that will pass soon too.

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 218
S
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Joined: May 2003
Posts: 218
Keeping with plan A as best I can. Rang home yesterday just to say hello, before I left work. A bit tense at first, but then got better. Was out last night, so no direct source of tension till I got home, which was nearly 11pm.
A brief conversation, before WW went to bed. I stayed up for a bit, and then started to read SAA, which arrived yesterday, along with some other books.
This morning was all different. Very friendly, a fair bit of conversation and asking as to how I was. Got a big hug before she left for work, and then she (playfully) pinched my [censored] and told me I was looking good and had lost some weight. Baby steps, but it did lift my heart a bit. Think I might suggest going for a walk or something tonight. Will play it by ear when I get home.

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