things ok last night. WW sat and had dinner with me - I cooked and even sat down to watch some TV with me. Went to bed early again, although her light was on for quite some time, so I suspect that she wasn't as tired as she said, but was in fact avoiding me. To be expected I suppose.

Things civil and reasonably friendly this morning - no hug, but did get a friendly tickle as she left.

Now, I could do with some advice regarding plan A/B and how to proceed.

I talked to a lawyer yesterday, just to be advised of the possibilities etc. The advice is that under no circumstances should I consider leaving the house. Equally there is no way I can make WW leave the house, without going down the route of legal separation. I can start proceedings there any time I like - she will have to wait a year before she can force matters. The likely timescale from initiation to completion is 3-4 months. So, if I want to go into plan B I basically need to start the ball rolling 3-4 months in advance. At this stage I am the best part of 3 months into plan A (nearly two thirds of that without really knowing that I was!). Am I effectively moving into plan B if I start this process - the first stage of which would be setting up mediation? Should I wait until I can't plan A any more before starting this, or should I keep doing plan A as best I can in parallel?

Salerio,

You know I've always had the opinion that you maintain PLAN A as long as possible for you. It seems to be effective. That's not saying that you won't eventually need to do PLAN B (as the folks told me and I did not want to listen). However, I believe there was lots of value in my good PLAN A before going to PLAN B.

It seems that she is responding to your PLAN A.

Take Care, Salerio.

Thanks Mimi

Things not so bad today and yesterday. Will post more when I get some time later or tomorrow.

Would appreciate some advice on when/how to move ahead with plan B re the separation. I have lots of questions too regarding how to do plan B when there are children in the picture - it is obviously not feasible to have absolutely no contact - but I suppose those further questions can wait for now.

Salerio remember what Plan A and Plan B are all about. Plan A is to negotiate and end to the WS's affair while avoiding love busters (angry outbursts, selfish demands, disrespectful judgements, dishonesty, independent behavior and annoying habits) and fulfilling the WS EN(emotional needs) AFTER the affair ends. Plan B is to separate from a WS that is still involved with the OP, and to remain so until the WS expresses an explicit desire to end all contact with the OP, and willingly agree to a marital plan of recovery along the MB principles incorporated in The Four Rules For A Succesful Marriage (click on the link bellow).

If your WW has NOT stopped all contact with the OM, then you MAY want to go ahead with filing for separation so that in 3 or 4 months from now, if she is still in contact with the OM, then you can get her legally to leave the house, and you can start implementing Plan B. If you have mutual friends or relatives willing to act as intermediaries between you and your WW, I would suggest that you consider using them as go betweens.

<small>[ June 08, 2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Thanks TMCM

Good advice I think. Regarding filing for separation, the way it works here is that mediation to work out the details is the preferred option. There are two other alternatives - I start the process independently through a lawyer, or I approach the court and look for a decision there. Neither are likely to result in anything more favourabvle to me, will be just as protracted, maybe more so and will certainly be WAY more expensive.

So, I think I am going to tough it out for a while. WW (a teacher) will be on holidays in a few weeks time, and may make some move towards moving out at that stage (she mentioned something about it once before). If and when she does, then I will insist on doing it properly, i.e. in the form of a legal separation. If she makes no move within a month from now, then I will begin moves myself. That will mean that a 3-4 month lead time will result in approximately 6-8 months of plan A (depending on how you define my 'informal' plan A while I was unaware of MB and indeed the A but knew that the M was in difficulty).

General update:

WW was out on Friday night visiting her sister, and had our D with her. I Went out for an hour or two and she was home when I returned. She was a little tipsy and had been drinking. I just tried to be amicable and asked her if she had any plans for the weekend. She replied that she was thinking of paying a visit to X (the area where OM is currently). My blood boiled, but I bit my tongue and didn't rise to the bait at all. Spent some time together watching TV and then WW went to bed.

Not much happened Sat - I was out in the morning, she in the afternoon. Both of us did some housework when we were there. WW called me to have dinner with her when she got back. A good sign I suppose as she could have just eaten alone. In the evening spent some time together watching TV and things were fairly relaxed. WW complained of not feeling great and retired to bed. She called me from upstairs shortly afterwards. She was not at all well and was physically sick for a couple of hours. She attributed this to pre-cooked food from the fridge that she had for dinner, but I had the same with no ill-effects. I stayed with her for a few hours, helping her, cleaning up, generally playing the role of nurse before putting her to bed. Gave me an excuse to hold her and rub her a little which was nice.

She still wasn't feeling well this morning, and was very appreciative when I brought some tylenol and some tea to her bed. I got a big hug and a thankyou for all the TLC before I went out. What else are husbands for I replied <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Have finished reading SAA and some other books now, and with the anti-D's taking hold I feel strong about myself and my plan A. If this M doesn't work out, it won't be due to anything I didn't do.

Onwards and upwards as they say.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My blood boiled, but I bit my tongue and didn't rise to the bait at all. Spent some time together watching TV and then WW went to bed.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Salerio,

Plan A is not about biting tongues and keeping quiet about how this hurts you. It's about honesty which allows you to express doubts and unhappiness about the opportunity and the results of continuing the affair. It must be done without LBs...but is an essential part of Plan A. DO express your preferences that WW NOT get into a situation that will further the affair and derail the efforts to rebuild your marriage. DO tell her that it will hurt you if she does. So many people believe that plan A is about making their spouse "happy"...it isn't.

Do your Plan A UNTIL....you feel as though your WW is trying to decide which way to go. Here is Harley's quote on this subject, which cerri uses in her tagline:

Plan A is a NEGOTIATING strategy to separate the spouse from the Lover. Avoid the mistake of falling into the fallacy of unconditional love.

"When your spouse is trying to decide between you and the lover, it's time for Plan B."
...Willard F. Harley Jr. PhD.

Don't forget to remember the goal, the process and the care and protection that is afforded to you during this process. It is fair and reasonable to expect your WW to face the consequences (your pain) even during Plan A. That's another reason why exposure during Plan A is so important. Affairs need secrecy and silence....don't enable that by biting your tongue.

***sorry about the quote being wrong....corrected it.

<small>[ June 08, 2003, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Thanks starfish.

This is very relevant and pertinent advice. I will certainly take it on board from now on.

well things going ok on the domestic front for the last day or two. Then we got hit with some awful news. My sisters (to whom I am very close) fiancee passed away in his sleep yesterday morning. Aged 27. In perfect health and no medical or psychological problems whatsoever.
It is so unfair. My poor sister is devastated. At least I have a chance to get WW back. She is left with nothing but memories.
<img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Sometimes it seems that "when it rains it pours".

Hang in there. You will make it victoriously through all of this one way or the other.

Thanks Mimi

It is just a low time. I am just trying to be there for my sister for what she is going through. Things with WW are not a matter of life and death as this is. I suppose we are getting on ok now, both of us feel for my sis - she is staying with us for the moment. Got a kiss on the forehead today when she left the house.

Really seeing the benefit of the anti-D's now I think. I feel strong and will come thru this better for me and my family, whatever the outcome. I want WW back and I truly believe that she still loves me. Time will tell if I am right, but if I amn't someone else will be getting me mark 2 whenever!

well several days without an update. Things have been pretty busy with the funeral arrangements etc for my sis' BF. Have been spending a lot of time with my sis to help her thru this and I suppose this has helped to take the pressure off our domestic situation. Had her over yesterday for a big slap up meal prepared by me. Got lots of thanks from WW afterwards. Things generally quite amicable.

Had a bit of a talk on Saturday. I was lying down feeling tired and upset and WW came to me and lay down with me. Held my hand and rubbed my back. Still deep in the fog, but did show some emotion. She is sorry for putting me through this, but it is unintentional. I responded that, her primary intention may not be to hurt me, but that the hurt is a direct, predictable and unavoidable consequence of her choice of actions. "I can't help the way I feel" was the reply to which my answer was that neither could I.

WW does seem more at ease spending time in my company now, prepared to sit in the same room, comes in to my room to say good morning, asks me about my day, talks on the way out the door etc.

My principal decision at the moment is with regard to initiating separation. She is showing no signs of movement here at present ("I don't know what to do"), despite me (as well as her sisters and mother) being fairly clear about the options. My first step has to be to get her to agree to mediation. If she makes the call on moving out, or proceeding in any way with a separation it becomes easy for me to raise it. The difficulty is if she continues to fence-sit - then I have to bring it up in a way that doesn't LB, move me to plan B (immediately), or make it seem like I am giving up on the M.
I honestly believe I am doing a fairly good job in plan A at present. Is there really any advantage to me postponing any initiation of separation, or do I just need to bite the bullet and accept the flak that will probably come my way?

Had you thought about arranging at least one session with Steve Harley if you can at all afford it. I found his assistance to be extremely valuable. I know he did not want me to suggest separation and encouraged me to stick to MY PLAN as long as possible. Their book suggests Plan A for 6 months. I waited for my WS to request separation and even then Steve told me to ask him "What would be the value of this? How can this help our marriage?" Of course, WS gave a foggy response and had already made up his mind to leave. This has been my experience.

Thanks Mimi

A session with Steve Harley isn't really an option for me financially or logistically as I am based in Europe. Will have to make do with his books, website and the (Great!) advice and support here.

S.

Salerio,

I counseled with Steve from South America...it wasn't that hard to arrange at all. I shopped around for a special rate with the phone company....found a good one at around 10 cents a minute....so only paid about 6 bucks for the hour of counseling + Steves fee of course. But if he's too hefty....you might try Penny (cerri). Divorce is much more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> costly

In Dr Willard Harley's book 'Love Busters', there's a chapter titled 'Disrespectful Judgements' in which the good doctor states to replace disrespectful judgements with respectful persuasion by doing the following steps:

1.Express your conflicting opinions to each other with respect and understanding.

2.Explain why you feel your opinion is in your spouse's best interest.

3.Suggest a test for your opinion.

4.If the test fails to persuade, be prepared to drop the subject.

5.Give your spouse the opportunity to persuade you.

Implementing these 5 steps with regards to things like mediation, you may able to achieve your objectives.

thanks guys

I will look into those suggestions. You are a great help (as usual!)

no real news to speak of. relationship with WW is going ok. Very little physical contact in the last two days, but plenty of loving looks and caring questions. Better than nothing. Still working hard on plan A and for the most part doing well I think.

Could do with some advice on the following:
WW's mother, my MIL (obviously!), has invited me to visit her for the weekend - to get away from things and to have a chat. In general I get on fine with my MIL, and she has been very supportive (of me and our D) through this ordeal. At the moment I am leaning towards going, as there are a few people I could see and talk to and just have a chance to relax a little. I am wondering how to broach it with WW. It is almost certain she would find out, and I'm not a deceitful person, so a 'white lie' isn't really an option. No doubt she will perceive it as either me trying to turn her family against her, or her family deciding themselves to turn against her. Should I just tell her I am going? I might bring my sister with me as she could do with a distraction for the weekend, and it would also be some justification. Any thoughts or comments?

Why not invite your WW to come along with you to visit her mother? If you do this you are definitely showing all your cards as far as your intentions are concerned, and its going to be unlikely that she will think that you are trying to scheme against her behind her back if you invite her to come along.

<small>[ June 17, 2003, 09:39 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Interesting idea - I might do that, although she is not really getting on with her mother very well at the moment. It would also mean bringing our D - thus turning it into more of an 'expedition' (its a 5 hour drive each way). The other complicating factor is that OM is currently staying only about 20 miles from MIL's house, so if WW was with me, she would undoubtedly want to hook up with him.

I think I will see how my sister is fixed. If she is still interested in going, I will take her. WW knows her mother has invited me previously, so with two 'reasons' I think I might as well be open about it and just tell her!

The idea is to invite her, whether she takes you up on your offer that's entirely up to her.