well another update.

Friday night after we got our D to bed (we had watched a movie together, just like old times), I tried to initiate a talk with WW about what her 'plan' was. She refused to talk saying that she wasn't going to talk to me that late at night, as it would be too stressful. I countered by saying that she had had 3 months in which to talk to me and still nothing - it was never the right time. She said we would talk the following day - Saturday - I knew she had some plans for the afternoon, so I asked her what time - she said whenever. I suggested 9pm, to which she didn't really react - she then went to bed.

Next morning (Saturday) we both stayed in bed for a bit, before getting up and doing a few chores around the house. In the afternoon, she (WW) went out (with our D) to visit her sister, so I went out too, with my sister. Just before I left she told me that she didn't want to talk that night - it would be 'too late and stressful' and that she would prefer to do it during the day and away from our house (and D). I perceived this as prevarication and told her so, before leaving. We were in contact several times during the day, at which stage it became obvious that she had no intention of talking that night. I suspected it was because she wanted to go out with OM, but she had said nothing about wanting to go out. I got home about 9pm, at which stage she announced that she wanted to go out for a bit. I asked her where and she wouldn't tell me, neither would she tell me who with.
As I suspected <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
The child in me then came out, as I was a little peeved that she would just take it for granted that I would be the babysitter to facilitate her A and that she was supposed to talk to me then, but was instead going out. So I reacted, by saying I was going out too so she better organise a sitter if she wanted to go out too. Then I just left <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
There was an interesting scene where she ran out to the car after me and tried to get me to come back but I wouldn't. She then rang me about 10 times over the next few hours trying to convince me to return. I answered politely each time, but wouldn't agree to come home unless she told me who she was meeting and where. All she would say was that she was meeting a 'friend', that it didn't matter who it was, and that I didn't know them (sure!). Oh yes, and this arrangement had only been made at 8:30 pm that night. Yeah, very likely!
WW then made a big error by saying that she wanted to meet this person, and wanted to do it away from the house (I had suggested that this mystery friend could call over <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) because she wanted to talk about 'the situation'. Of course I was able to hit back with the fact that she had 3 months to talk to anyone she wanted and that she couldn't talk to me that night, but could talk to someone else, and that that talk was at the other persons suggestion?

Anyhow, I eventually came home at 12:30, figuring that that would be too late for her to go out. Of course I was wrong <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> She 'went out to get cigarettes' at 12:45 and returned at 2:30 - at which time she came into my room, held my hand, kissed me and told me not to worry, that she was home!

We are now due to talk this afternoon, and I amn't holding my breath in anticipation of 'the plan'.

We'll see.

Thanks for all the support and advice.

S.

PS. Have told a few more mutual friends at this stage, and have decided to go ahead with above planb regarding talking to his mother via her local priest.

Salerio:

I'm remembering what Steve Harley recommended to me. Why don't you come up with "YOUR PLAN" ? Your WW apparently does not have a plan and does not want to develop one. Decide what will be best for you. She's involving you now in her insanity as these WSes do. It's time now for you to step out of her crazy world. Your plan might even include helping her find somewhere to stay. You don't need to have this A up in your face like this. I really feel for you. I'm afraid for you, based on my own experience, regarding all the crazy scenes that you can get involved in. All of this is not good for your daughter to witness either.

Steve had me to focus on MY PLAN because yous are the only person you can control. Your WW is out of control. She is so much into the FOG that her behavior is bizarre and she is so disrespecful of you. I've been there, as you know, Salerio.

Hang in there!!!!

<small>[ July 20, 2003, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

salerio,

Everyone has been tellin you to come up with your own plan.....preferably....PLAN B! You are too hurt to do a good Plan A any longer. Your wife is in DEEP fog. Stop waiting and be the captain of your own ship!

thinking of you!!!!

Salerio -

If you haven't done so already, please email Penny at info_lifeworkscoaching@yahoo.com . She's very insightful, and patient. (She puts up with my mess!)

I'm not saying to stop seeing your counselor, but a session with the Harleys or Penny might really help you now, since what you have been trying so hard for the past few months hasn't worked.

I agree with everyone else: you need to guard your own heart now, before your wife's dumb bevahior kills your love for her. But I'm not a marriage expert. Please email Penny.

Thanks for the support guys

I have been recognising the signs in myself to be honest, that it is time to move towards plan B so that is what I have been doing. Like has been said here, I need to be captain of my own ship, to wrest some control of the situation.

As I suspected, the discussion yesterday revealed that she had no plan whatsoever. The closest it came was that 'our D should come first, so everything is based on that' (like I don't care about her?) and that we should continue as is, i.e. she lives with us, but does what the f*&^ she likes!

It was almost comical - she didn't even know anything about how separation works (and this is someone who tells me that she has thought long and hard about what she is doing! HA ha).

So I filled her in on the details, told her that was the train we were on now - her choice, and that there was no going back. She can't afford to buy out my share of our house, so either I buy her out or we sell. She was pretty upset all round and quite obviously shocked (this fog is something else!). Didn't take too long to explain all of this - all done very respectfully and calmly with no LB.

The issue came up then of the previous night and my childish behaviour. I acknowledged that it was a little childish, but that she shouldn't expect very much respect from em if she was giving me none - I wasn't going to be the babysitter to facilitate her affair.

She wanted to have something to eat together after that, but I didn't feel up to it. I was feeling quite emotional and needed a break. I did this and returned home later. WW was still quite freaked out and told me she needed to go out for a walk. I said fine when she asked if I minded (also pointed out that I didn't really have a choice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). She wanted to take my car, but that is a boundary I have now - I will not let her near my car if there is even a remote chance that she is meeting OM. Bad enough that she has used it in the past. No idea what time she arrived home from her 'walk', but it was after 1am (and she was at her walking spot at 10:30).

So in summary, the wheels are turning, separation proceedings are in train, and I think she is panicking a bit. All told I feel I am doing alright, but I am conscious that my LBank for her is draining fast, so trying to avoid making it worse till I can go full plan B - i.e. the separation is in place.

S.

Salerio,

You're reaching critical mass. If she's starting to panic, it's a good sign. If it were up to me, you wouldn't wait another day for Plan B. Make this real for her. Let her understand what life without you is like and how inept at meeting all her needs the OM is. If you're still living together....there is no separation. Give her all the freedom she needs in one fell swoop.....and enough rope to hang herself with it. Stop pussyfooting around. Each time she disrespects you, she loses respect for you. It's time.

((((((((((((((((salerio))))))))))))))

Thanks starfish

I understand what you are saying and ideally this is what I would do. However, legally speaking if I move out now, it does me no favours. Also the thought of OM being in my house turns my stomach. So basically I need to stay in the house. That means getting her to move, and to do that I need the legal separation - and that takes some time to process. However, she is now fully aware of the process and how it doesn't need her say-so to proceed, its gonna happen anyway. I am also feeling like playing hardball at the moment with regard to babysitting duties. Unless I know exactly where she is going and I know it doesn't involve OM, then I will insist that she gets a sitter to enable me to go out also.

Kinda plan A-B till I have the weaponry to go full plan B <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

S.

Salerio,

I do understand the legal ramifications....and I think you are wise to get all your ducks in a row.....I just find her behavior galling to say the least. And I couldn't agree more, that your babysitting services should be over....as long as your child doesn't suffer in that process. Ask your wife to kindly have the decency to wait until the separation is in place to resune her nightly "walks". Don't facilitate her affair in anyway. How long will it take for the separation to go into effect?

Salerio I would advice you to contact an attorney ASAP and ask him/her what you can do to legally protect yourself from the possibility of getting slapped with a NC RO(no contact restraining order) by your WW. In her state of mind I would not trust her to NOT try this approach to avoid being kicked out of the house. She could become influenced by her so called friends and/or the OM to go this route. Don't become one of the many BH's who gets kicked out of his home by his WW pre-emptive strike via a RO. Go to your Attorney NOW.

Thanks Guys

I told her today that my babysitting services were over - that I had no problem doing so if I was certain that she was not with OM, but otherwise, she was to assume I was going out too and to organise a sitter - if she wants to do likewise when I am out, then fine I'll organise one - no real problem as I have 2 brothers, a sister and parents within easy reach and more than willing to help out.

The poop really hit the extractor! I am the biggest bully she has ever met, all my family are *******s, I must feel great with all my support networks, having turned her family against her etc. Oh yes, and it was impossible for her to have a rational discussion with me (having previously told me I was 'so F*&^ING rational all the time'!). I didn't raise my voice once, or LB in any way, I even preceded it by saying that I just wanted to let her know, and wasn'nt trying to be antagonistic, but that I felt I shouldn't be a doormat. Her response was to walk out of the room, covering her ears and say she is not listening. Then to slam doors and verbally abuse me - and it is impossible to have a rational discussion with me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> FOG!!

Regarding the question, it will probably be about 2 months before the separation is in effect.

Thanks for the headsup TMCM. My legal advice previously was that there was no way I should leave the house, but equally no way she could make me - short of violent (physical or verbal) behaviour. There hasn't and won't be, and there is nobody she could even call on to lie for her here. Her family wouldn't, they are more in my corner and the only person who might is OM, and he wouldn't be in a strong positition to do anything.
However, I will contact my lawyer tomorrow to confirm this, especially regarding the RO. Thanks

S.

latest news

about 1 hour after WW left I got a call from her, apologising for what she said. She hates arguing with me and hopes we can have civil conversations. Of course we can I replied. She said she was sorry for what she said and didn't want to go to bed with that hanging over her.

Maybe I am getting my hopes up, but I really feel she is running scared right now - she doesn't want to lose me.

I'm proud of the way I've done so far, laid out the situation without LB-ing and haven't got angry with her at all (well hardly <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and very few disrepsecful comments (although I did call OM a ****head tonight <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). However as my sister said, in his case that is probably a compliment <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Another call later where she wondered where we were (we called to my parents house) and that was very amicable - including asking our D to go and say hi to all from her).

Now that the 'conditions' (i.e. no babysitting, and separation in process) have been spelled out, I hope it will be easier to continue plan A, or at least be civil until the separation is finalised. My plan at the moment is to stay as close to plan A as I can (with no babysitting) till the separation, then switch to plan B. Sometime in the next 2-3 weeks I also plan to put more pressure on via OM's mother and the local priest plan (see previous page of this thread). I would welcome any thoughts on that.

S.

I like your plan Salerio.....I find her crawfishing (cajun term for backing down) a hopeful sign that reality is starting to seep in. I especialy like the the no babysitting notice.....that was important. Hard to believe she could use you that shamelessly, but the fog is a horrible thing. Anyway, time for little miss Fantasy to taste reality.

Good going Salerio. Keep your wits and charm about you....you posess both.

well lots more news, hopefully I cover all the bases now and don't have to re-edit later!

WW stayed with her sister last night and returned this morning. I decided to work from home today so was here when she returned. Things were very amicable. Shortly after she returned she was on the phone to her brother-in-law, and was in tears about it. I asked her what was wrong but she didn't want to talk about it. At lunch time she asked if we could talk later and I said sure.

We talked, she said a lot of things she has said before - she loves me to bits, but isn't 'in love' with me anymore. She can't say sorry, cos it wouldn't mean anything given what she is doing. The A wouldn't have happened unless we 'were over'. Her only regret is that she didn't talk to me a long time back. I listened politely - she was getting emotional at times, but it was mainly fog talk (IMO). One interesting comment she made was that she wished she could give up OM to show me that we couldn't work, but that she couldn't do that, like she was addicted.

she asked me lots of questions about the separation process and what the end results would be. She got very upset at the reality - she would be moving out, and so would I unless I could buy her out of the house - we would be sharing access to our D - she wouldn't see any given one of us for a week at a time.

I was very gentle during all of this and hugged her a few times, which I think she appreciated.

Then she dropped a bombshell. She had been to doctor on Monday and discovered that she has an STD - genital warts. I stayed very calm, I guess I kind of expected this in a way based on something she had said a few weeks back about some problems 'down there'. So now I have to go and get checked out. Just lovely <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
OM has not told his ex-GF (of 11 years!) and doesn't plan to unless his tests reveal that he is carrying something. This pisses me off, and I think I might contact her and let her know. If she is carrying something she needs to know ASAP IMO, in case she passes it on, and so she can get checked out and treated if necessary.

My BIL rang me earlier tonight to tell me about the conversation he had with WW. He was picking up the pieces after a failed conversation WW had with her twin sister (BIL's wife), and trying to advice WW to be prepared for the process and to get herself some legal advice etc.
I thanked him for his help and re-iterated to him that the separation was not what I wanted, but what she wanted, but that at this stage, there was nothing left for me to try to save the marriage - if this didn't work, then nothing would and separation would be the result anyhow.

I later had a good conversation with SIL (WW's twin) who had since had a good talk with WW. WW apparently trusts me 100% (not that she has any reason not to) and is upset about the consequences, but is prepared to go the mediation route for separation. SIL understands my position and thinks I am right to go the separation route, but just wants her sister to go into the process armed with the fullest information. I'm happy with this - I have no intention of screwing her over - I just want a fair deal and hopefully she will come to her senses.

WW was going to bed when I got home tonight, so we only talked briefly. Very amicable.

The road ahead is clear if a little scary. At the moment I feel strong. I think I have done a fairly good job of plan A, and am still treating WW well in general, although there has been a little conflict over the babysitting issue.

I'm hoping that the separation process itself will shake up WW, but at this stage my inclination is to proceed regardless to the agreement - any possible reconciliation can happen in parallel if necessary. I need the separation agreed to enable my plan B - if necessary.

S.

I hope that you don't have genital warts or HPV (human papillovirus). In women it is believed to be the cause of cervical cancer. This is a disease that cannot be cured. Get yourself tested for all the STDs.

not a huge amount of news since last update.

Wednesday was quiet - WW was tired and just wanted to watch TV. I went out with my sister and two friends. Had a good talk. Things generally amicable at home.

Thursday, WW had a doctors appointment and stayed out most of the day. I suspect she went for legal advice regarding the separation, although she didn't explicitly state this. I'm fine with that, as long as she got good advice and not some cowboy! Suggested that the 3 of us (WW, me and our D) went for something to eat, but unfortunately I had a prior engagement. Had a brief talk with WW before I left. Told her that I believed that OM's ex GF had to be told ASAP about the STD in case she passed it on or needed treatment. I stressed that this was OM's job, but needed to be ASAP and not when/if it suited him. Said that I would contact her if HE didn't. This freaked her a little as she didn't want OM's Ex GF knowing 'her business'. I stressed again that she had a right to know and ASAP and that it was OM's job to do this. Think I might call her tomorrow to confirm that she knows.

Had more bad news last night as a friend of myself and my sister had a heart attack. He is currently in critical condition. As if that tragedy wasn't enough his 12 year old daughter has leukemia. He was telling me recently about how much of a strain he was finding things, so I guess that brought it on. He is only 45 and very fit and in great health. Ironic how tragedy seems to find the good guys <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

all quite civil today, but a little confrontation when I told WW she would need a babysitter if she is going out. She thinks I am being petty, which I am I suppose to some extent - I have told her that if she is going out and there is any possibility in my mind that it is with OM, then I am going out too, so a babysitter needs to be arranged. However, she rang me later after I had left for work and apologised.

We are supposed to be doing something as a family tomorrow (WW's suggestion) so that has to be positive. I also have a dinner invite to a (male!) friends house tomorrow night.

WW has to contact the mediators today to get an appointment for us to start the separation proceedings.

More later.

S.

I am sorry to read about the std. It looks like you are being very careful, but I have heard women can have it without a sign, maybe men can too? I sincerely hope you are unaffected, but it looks like someone is playing around with more than one person, maybe the OM? Your w is sleeping with om's lovers as well when she is with him... ugh... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Hope and Strength to you, she sounds sooo fogged.

Honey

You seem to be in a very collected, stable frame of mind – which is good. You have a plan, you know what to do – she doesn’t. Go ahead with the separation proceedings, keep up the pressure in order to force her (them) to face reality. In my case, I tried to pursue the same plan but couldn’t in the end – WW refused to move out, was abusive and the only way for me to stay sane was for me to move out. Whatever. It’s only money.
The STD issue reminded me of when OM discovered he had Hep B, told my WW, and she run to the doctor to get herself tested… did she tell me anything about it? Of course not.

With the separation coming up (I think you mentioned 2 months?) - are you emotionally ready to separate and plan B? I tried twice to move out – once I’ve already paid the deposit – but couldn’t, as my emotional attachment, love and hope was still too strong. Only the third time I managed.

Salerio,

Have you been to the doctor yet?

Honey - Yes men can have no symptoms too, and at the moment I have none. WW is '99% certain' she has not been with me since being with him - ugh!

Nick - yes I think I am ready, but until I am there I suppose I won't know.

starfish - no I have not been to my doc yet. She was away this week, but hopefully early next week I will do so.

other news:

WW did in fact contact the mediators to set up the process, or at least says she did. I have no reason not to believe her, but I may double check on Monday just to be sure.
WW was quite amicable yesterday and today - I organised my sister to come over to babysit when she went out last night. She may have met OM, I don't know, but the 'fun' part was that my sister had to stay over as WW was home late, so WW slept on the couch in my sis had the spare room <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Oh, and I asked WW this morning for 50% of the 'babysitters fee'.
Had an interesting conversation with WW yesterday during which I told her that I had told a few more of our mutual friends. She didn't react to badly but made some interesting comments - about how she hates being the centre of attention and wishes that 'all this could just end', so that people wouldn't be focussed on her. "It just isn't me". She then said she felt like going overseas for a year and letting 'somebody move on to the next person' before stopping herself and saying 'everyone move on to the next thing'.

WW wants to go out tonight, but I am also going out. She wants me to organise a babysitter, but I told her it is her turn, as I did it last night. Guess that means she is staying home tonight <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

One other interesting thing. WW came into the room to talk to me earlier, I was lying on the couch reading. As I was looking at her, she accused me (light-heartedly) of checking out her breasts (guilty as charged <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). She then proceeded to flash them at me several times. Almost like old times, and the first time she has let me see her unclad in about 3-4 months. Nice to see some live ones again - ha ha!

S.

Another update

WW couldn't get a sitter for Saturday night so she could see OM (she wanted me to ask my mother to mind our daughter!!). I went out and had a good night - paid for it on Sunday morning though!
Sunday afternoon our D had a birthday party to go to. WW left after bringing her to the party 3pm. Arrived home at 1:30 am. Suppposedly out visiting her mother, but I found out the next day she didn't go at all.
Not much happened on Monday - WW was talking about going to visit her sister in the afternoon. I invited my sister over for dinner. We were just arriving at 6pm when WW sent me a text message asking if she needed to get a sitter, as she was planning on going to the cinema. I told her yes she did, and she went off in a huff. Think she was a little miffed that my sister was there too. I went out, just for the sake of it, so that she couldn't which was a little petty and I know annoyed her. However, I had made it clear that if she was going out with OM (or if I wasn't sure that she was NOT going out with OM) then she could could take it that I was going out too and that she needed a sitter.
Tuesday she did go visit her sister.
Yesterday (Wednesday) I rang her at home in the afternoon - we had a nice talk for a few minutes and then she mentioned that she wanted to go out that night. I asked her who with and where and when she wouldn't tell me, I re-iterated my position regarding a sitter. She told me she wasn't going to play my games and hung up. We had a repeat conversation when I got home from work. After dinner I just left so she was stranded. Cue many abusive phone-calls. I went out to her sisters house for an hour or two and then returned. More silly stuff, but a bit calmer. However she was still talking at me and not to or with me, so I went out again for an hour. Went to bed when I came in, although WW was still awake.
She did come into my room when she was going to bed and held my hand. No words were exchanged till I said goodnight to her. It was nice, if a little poignant.

Things a little calmer this morning. We talked a little, she told me she had been to a lawyer and what they had said (I think her lawyer doesn't know much, is looking for easy cash, or WW picked up a lot of stuff wrong - or maybe a combination of all three). She also got her STD test results back. Thankfully all negative with the (already known) exception of the warts. I discovered that OM still hasn't told his ex-GF, but that is taken care of - I rang her last night and told her she needed to talk to him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Not much other news - there seems to be something of a cooling off between WW's family and me - but I suppose that has to be expected. I am doing my best to stay on good terms, but without throwing them in the middle where possible.

S.