</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We tend to react badly to what they say, and what they do on a daily basis.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I understand this concept, though I determined from the beginning that no matter what she did or said or what I found out, my eyes would not focus on the here and now, but on my end goal of recovery.
That being said, of course it's difficult to not take things personally on a day to day basis. I try to keep my reactions to her on an even keel. If any emotion is shown, I make sure it is positive emotion to her.
If she starts on about how she's going to leave or how she hates what I've turned her into, I try to pull her closer and calm her down. I decided long ago that the affair was not to be used to beat her over the head with....no matter how much she berates me about my failures.
To this day, I don't think I've slipped once with any of the smart-a** comments that have come to mind (having that personality is a curse sometimes) and I thank God for that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When your wife says she won’t tell you about continued contact, and that she can’t trust you, that is blowing smoke. It means “ you are not important enough to me to know the truth, and I have something to hide.” This assumes that you don’t start to LB when you find something bad.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know she still has something to hide, and it's so obvious I'm really surprised that she hasn't realized that yet. It's almost humerous....almost.
When I find things out (which really hasn't been much other than the identity of the OM and my hunch turned fact that they are still talking and emailing) I don't think I've damaged things by flipping out. I didn't flip when she first told me of the affair, so I think I can handle things as they come, and I know that more will probably come.
I'm not perfect by any means, but I know that God prepared me for what was going to happen in the weeks before she told me. For some reason then, I just picked up "His Needs Her Needs" and read it through. To this day I don't know why other than I was going to need some of that info but didn't know it yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to remind her that she has to go out of her way to show NC if this is going to work, and until she is willing to do that you can’t trust her. If she wants trust back, she has to earn it, and right now she won’t even tell the truth and give you a straight answer. Read the part about trust again in SAA so you can explain it to her when this comes up again. You don’t have to be mean to her but there will be no recovery until she restores trust and comes clean about EVERYTHING. It takes two - and you can tell her that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's been a hard thing for me to do because it's so obvious that overall, she just doesn't care what I think or want.
I tell her how much knowing that they are still together hurts me and that nothing can be any better until they break things off for good.
Her reply is that she's just not ready for things to be better between us.
What do you do but be what you're supposed to be?

.........it's so obvious that overall, she just doesn't care what I think or want.
That is "normal" for an affair. However, she will make it clear that it is "your" fault, not hers.
The reasons are always vauge.

I tell her how much knowing that they are still together hurts me and that nothing can be any better until they break things off for good.
Her reply is that she's just not ready for things to be better between us.
Translation:
"I want to have my cake and eat it too, I want to continue to have both of you meet my needs."

If you can't tell anyone because of promises you made to your W, see if you can get OM's W to tell all his family and friends and put preasure on his end.
She would need to read the book first so she would know what is going on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

BTW, your wife saying she can't trust you with info as long as you are in contact with OM'w wife is another way for her to try and shift the blame from herself and her actions to you. It must work somewhat because you are affected by what she says. You should know it is a ploy and is often used by the WS's.

You just plan A, and do the best you can, it usually takes time.

SS

<small>[ May 21, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Translation:
"I want to have my cake and eat it too, I want to continue to have both of you meet my needs."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suppose so. Sometimes I wonder exactly what needs of hers that I'm currently meeting. She works, so she could get along by herself (plus her boss thinks of her as the daughter he never had and would probably provide a good bit for her if she left). We have no children, so that's no a tie. I know she can get her conversation need met at any time by the OM. SF has never been huge on her list...too, she's gotten that from him before, so there's nothing stopping that (I tell myself I'm just better there...yeah come on)

Affection may be one area that I have the upper hand in. She's always been a very touchy-feely type person and so have I. It's the one area she rated me high in when we first read HNHN (when the affair was going on no less).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you can't tell anyone because of promises you made to your W, see if you can get OM's W to tell all his family and friends and put preasure on his end.
She would need to read the book first so she would know what is going on.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm really not trying to shoot ideas down, I promise....I've actually thought of that, but I've stopped short because some of his family (step mother and brothers) and quite a few of his friends go to my church. The step mother is the one I worry about. She's about the biggest gossip I've ever met and if she got ahold of that, it would be all over the place in about 3 1/2 minutes.
My wife worried that OMsW would tell someone, but since she hasn't so far, I think if the word got out around our church that my wife would suspect me. I don't need that.

If I wanted to get technical, I could really say that she never asked me to not tell anyone of the affair when she told me about it. Who it was...I found out on my own, so I can do whatever I wish with that info.
Doing that just goes against every bit of my being. I know that instinct is a dangerous thing right now, but how do you get over that?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW, your wife saying she can't trust you with info as long as you are in contact with OM'w wife is another way for her to try and shift the blame from herself and her actions to you. It must work somewhat because you are affected by what she says. You should know it is a ploy and is often used by the WS's.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I haven't fully come to think of these things as ploys yet. It's just so unlike my wife to do things like this, it's almost impossible to start thinking that way. To try to put an entirely new personality on her and think of it as "normal", even on a temporary basis is mind-numbing.
Yes, it does work on me to an extent. I do feel the need to please her, and with my contact with the OMsW.....I probably didn't handle that well from the beginning by keeping my wife in the loop there. I thought it was best at the time, so I just have to live with the decision.
I have told her (OMsW) that at this point I didn't think it was best for us to be contacting each other, seeing that it was putting extra stress on my already delicate situation. As well as the fact that hearing all the details of her and her husband's problems was weighing me down even further.
So overall, that's probably best. But I do have to get used to seeing through the screens she throws up and when she tries to turn the tables on me.

I appreciate all the info. Keep it coming.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by high_road:
<strong> Sometimes I wonder exactly what needs of hers that I'm currently meeting. She's always been a very touchy-feely type person and so have I. It's the one area she rated me high in when we first read HNHN </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hello, High_Road,
I haven't responded to you up to now, but I see you've been in good hands, and are taking care to follow the excellent advice you've recieved.

The above comments by you led me to a point I think is important. I did this, and I found it helpful when trying to Plan A.

If you are unsure what your W's main EN's are, or if you suspect they have "shifted" somewhat (you said you had read HNHN together previously), and now OM is meeting them quite well...you might try taking the EN Questionnaire for her. In other words, as tho you are her....YOU answer the questions.

I did this. As my tag line says, when my H left, he just left - period. No looking back, NO conversations, NO warnings, NO nothing!! He certainly did not want to negotiate, or fix what was wrong....he had made up his mind it wasn't fixable, and he was leaving!

BTW - This was a long-term M, and led more to an Exit A than I think yours is. It was mentioned early in your post about an "exit A" - but I don't believe the poster has it right.

An exit Affair takes place when one partner feels like they are being "dragged down" and "Life is passing them by" and "Now it's THEIR TURN to live life...." blah, blah, blah. The OP is merely a "vehicle" to get them out of the M. Usually they don't stay w/OP very long after a Div. simply b/c the OP isn't the real reason they left the M!

I don't believe that's the case in your situation. Your W's appears simply to be a case of WS looking for their needs met, look outside the M, and find their "soulmate OP!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Well, anyway, my main point is to figure out what her top EN's are, and then DO THEM as part of your Plan A. That's it!! Keep that up, and change YOU to be the best H possible....then just wait for the A to "run its course" and die its logical natural death (any relationship based on lies and deceit and hurt to so many others cannot survive long term).

God Bless,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you are unsure what your W's main EN's are, or if you suspect they have "shifted" somewhat (you said you had read HNHN together previously), and now OM is meeting them quite well...you might try taking the EN Questionnaire for her. In other words, as tho you are her....YOU answer the questions</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's funny that questionnaire would be brought up.
I printed a copy of all the questionnaires out a few weeks ago and have been biding my time, waiting for a good day to ask her to fill some of them out.
My wife got a traffic ticket last month and decided to go to court today, so she's got some time to burn. We had a very good evening last night and a good morning today, so I gave her the EN, LB and RC (kind of threw that one in there for curiosity) forms and asked her to fill them out while she was waiting. She agreed.
So hopefully by days end I'll have a better idea of a few things. 1. If her needs are the same as they were last time we talked. 2. How I'm currently fairing with meeting those needs. And hopefully too, the ones that I believe I'm succeeding in and she marks as low may tell me what she's still getting from OM. That will tell me where to turn up the effort.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW - This was a long-term M, and led more to an Exit A than I think yours is. It was mentioned early in your post about an "exit A" - but I don't believe the poster has it right.

An exit Affair takes place when one partner feels like they are being "dragged down" and "Life is passing them by" and "Now it's THEIR TURN to live life...." blah, blah, blah. The OP is merely a "vehicle" to get them out of the M. Usually they don't stay w/OP very long after a Div. simply b/c the OP isn't the real reason they left the M!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure....most of what you explain above sounds just like my wife. Only thing I think is that if she wanted to use the affair as an excuse to leave, I don't think she would have let it go on for 18 months.
The first part of your explaination sounds just like what my wife tells me when she gets angry and pours out.
She said that she feels that we are going in different directions in life. That she feels that she is trying to climb a ladder (life) and I am below her holding her ankle, keeping her from making a step up. And I will admit, that I have been like that in the past. Not very growth and achievement oriented. But maybe that's more of a complaint about my behavior?
You saying that about "my turn to live" rings a distinct bell. Below is a part of an email that my wife sent me earlier this week....
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Am I being selfish because I want to be happy? I was thinking about this
today. I am usually always considerate of other peoples feelings and put my
own wants, wishes and even needs to the side so that someone else can have
what they want but for once I don't want to do that. I don't want to stay
with you and just try to work it out because it's what I'm supposed to do.
I want something that I've never had. And because of that I feel selfish.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Any hidden meaing in that I'm missing?? She does have a problem with putting what she wants to the side so others can have what they want. I won't deny that, but I consider that (in moderation) to be a good character trait.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe that's the case in your situation. Your W's appears simply to be a case of WS looking for their needs met, look outside the M, and find their "soulmate OP!"</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That sounds right too. In fact, it sounds like 2 kinds of A's all rolled up into one. Hey! Buy one get one! Ain't I lucky! J/K.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, anyway, my main point is to figure out what her top EN's are, and then DO THEM as part of your Plan A. That's it!! Keep that up, and change YOU to be the best H possible....then just wait for the A to "run its course" and die its logical natural death (any relationship based on lies and deceit and hurt to so many others cannot survive long term).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what I'm preparing to do (doing as much as I can now, but knowing her current needs and my current LB's will help).
I know I can't force things to end and they have to come to their own conclusion.
The part that gets me about that is my wife knows that too. She's read most everything (not quite, but most) that I have and tells me that I might have to just let her go for her to see how things would be with him. That is just such a slap in the face. I hate when she tries to use what I consider my information against me.

Anyway.....

Here's another question....

How much, if any, time and effort should I put into the OM? I mean, this guy was closer to me than my own brother for several years. I know everything...most everything about the guy. I have really yet to seriously confront him about things.

He came to me when he learned that I knew everything and tried to apologize and tell me he'd get out of my life. I was unprepared to talk to him, so I just let him say what he needed to and took his words as heartfelt (stupid me).
We emailed a couple of times, but I never really expressed my feelings about anything.
That was 3 months ago...does it matter now?

Also, the fact that I'm 99.9% sure the A is still ongoing....at least emotionally. Should I email/call/visit him and lay out what I suspect and that I'd like for him to drop off the face of the planet, and do what he told me he'd do 3 months ago?

Or does it matter? Should I just focus on what I can do in my own home and let that speak for itself?

Quote from High_road&#8217;s wife
Am I being selfish because I want to be happy? I was thinking about this
today. I am usually always considerate of other peoples feelings and put my
own wants, wishes and even needs to the side so that someone else can have
what they want but for once I don't want to do that. I don't want to stay
with you and just try to work it out because it's what I'm supposed to do.
I want something that I've never had. And because of that I feel selfish.

This is fog talk. Blowing smoke.
We are always being selfish when we want to be happy AT SOMEONE ELSES EXPENSE. You loose, I win. That is selfish.
Lets put it this way &#8211;
I am breaking my marriage vows because I want to be happy. So what if I made promises to you, I don&#8217;t care about that. Who me? Am I selfish when I lie, break my vows, and sleep with someone else out side or marriage?

And this one:
&#8220; I want something that I&#8217;ve never had.&#8221;
That is usually bull. When she married you were you in love? Was she?
This is a standard excuse so she won&#8217;t feel bad about doing something that is terribly wrong and can&#8217;t be justified.

She is doing it because if she doesn&#8217;t do it she has to admit the magnitude of the wrong she is inflicting on you.

Just so you know, nothing you say will make much difference right now. You can&#8217;t point this stuff out to her and have her change because of what you say.

That&#8217;s why you expose the A. She has this fantasy and it is all sweetness and light but when things are exposed it gets ugly and looses it appeal.

Now, I know you weren&#8217;t the perfect husband, but don&#8217;t fall this stuff.

Re-read about the giver and taker in HNHN and you will see that probably her taker is in charge. If you can give ( plan A) for a while it may be that her giver will help moderate what is going on and you can start to talk to her.
If you were REALLY BAD pre A, it may take a while. Part of this is that an A is an addiction like a drug, it is part physical not all mental. I can&#8217;t find the research but it has been posted about before on this site. Plan A can help erase the bad effects of what you did before.

And just to comment on something you said before about not understanding what needs he is meeting. Sometimes there is a need we have that we didn&#8217;t know we had. The OP meets it and we fall. She may not be aware. Other times it is the excitement of the affair that they are getting, the chemical addiction ( wish I could find that link) that affairs create inside the brain. I know you have a hard time believing that she could be doing this, because it&#8217;s not like her, but this is a real addiction and she is an addict. Expect &#8220;addict like&#8221; behavior from her until she starts to come out of it. She may not be doing it consciously but she is doing it.

You may not be able to force things to end, but you can hurry them along by realizing that this really is war, and you have to take the gloves off ( as you said) and use the tools you have. DR Harley is good at this, and he is the one that recommends telling everyone about it. Make it uncomfortable as you can for them to continue. Tell the world &#8211; OK, that is a figure of speech, you made promises, but unless she did, she ought to tell.

She ( OM&#8217;s W) needs to know that marriages really can be fixed.
She needs to know how to increase her chances.
She needs to know that things can actually be better than they were before.
She needs faith, and hope.

You can&#8217;t give these things to her, but you can tell her where to look.

Let her blow it wide open if nothing else works.

She's read most everything (not quite, but most) that I have and tells me that I might have to just let her go for her to see how things would be with him.
See, if things were getting uncomfortable for both of them, she may not be saying things like this.

How much, if any, time and effort should I put into the OM? I mean, this guy was closer to me than my own brother for several years. I know everything...most everything about the guy. I have really yet to seriously confront him about things&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.Also, the fact that I'm 99.9% sure the A is still ongoing....at least emotionally. Should I email/call/visit him and lay out what I suspect and that I'd like for him to drop off the face of the planet, and do what he told me he'd do 3 months ago?

Or does it matter? Should I just focus on what I can do in my own home and let that speak for itself?

Sometimes The Harleys advise talking to OP, and sometimes they say no. In your case, I would probably tell him you know, and tell him to stay away and give you a chance. It usually doesn&#8217;t work ( like telling a drunk to stay away from the bar) but I can&#8217;t see you will loose anything. If you can get his W to tell him that if he won&#8217;t do NC she will tell the world it may help too. Just tell her not to promise him any thing so she can keep that option.

If you had some kind of leverage to help him want to quit, that would be nice too.

Remember that we are just a support group, not professional counselors. I know you want your pastor to help, and I think that is good, but remember also that the Harleys are very good at what they do, and cost much less than divorce costs.

You still doing OK most of the time?

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is fog talk. Blowing smoke.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am starting to see it for what it is. That realization doesn't always help much until after the fact and I've had a chance to think about things that are said and done on my own for awhile, but I will get better at it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And this one:
“ I want something that I’ve never had.”
That is usually bull. When she married you were you in love? Was she?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've been head over heals for her since I first met her. Not always in the right proportions and I haven't prooven that to her very well until lately, but yes. I was deeply in love with her.
As for her....she married me. I was under the impression that she was in love with me.
She says now (and has for some time, but it may be the A talking) that she never really loved me fully. Of course, she has just realized this "recently", so that's mostly likely more fog talk.
I have always felt that I've had deeper feelings for her than she has for me. Not that I've ever felt that she doesn't love me at all (except for lately), but I know my attraction to her has always been stronger than hers to me.

But in a short answer, yes, I believe she was in love when we married.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just so you know, nothing you say will make much difference right now. You can’t point this stuff out to her and have her change because of what you say.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what I've come to realize.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That’s why you expose the A. She has this fantasy and it is all sweetness and light but when things are exposed it gets ugly and looses it appeal.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's extremely ironic that you said that today.
Other than my pastor, I have also been emailing my SS teacher. He is a deacon and in my opinion, a true prayer warrior. I haven't been in touch with him much, but over the years, I have relied on him for prayer in different areas.
I emailed him earlier this week and requested that he keep my wife and I in prayer and kind of gave him the seriousness of the situation without giving him the situation. I was careful in my wording because I didn't want to be accused of going behind her back to tell someone.
Anyway, he got back with me with how much he was concerned and that he would pray for us.
Today, out of the blue he emailed me (he's not usually one to initial an exchange, he's extremely busy during the day) and said he hoped I wouldn't be mad, but he had to ask if either one of us had become involved with another person. No reason for thinking that given, just out of the blue.
I haven't replied (it's just been a couple of hours ago) and wonder if I should just spill it. Then there's the other part that wants to show my wife the email and let her know before I do anything.
I told her from the beginning that I didn't plan to tell anyone, but I would not lie if confronted with it. But again, there's that part of me that wants to be up front and tell her what's going on before I make any moves. This is the hardest thing for me....striking out and making steps on my own without involving her. Guess I've relied on her too much in the past to verify my actions. It's a hard habit to break even now.

If you've got any thoughts on that, send them on.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> posted May 22, 2003 03:34 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from High_road’s wife
Am I being selfish because I want to be happy? I was thinking about this
today. I am usually always considerate of other peoples feelings and put my
own wants, wishes and even needs to the side so that someone else can have
what they want but for once I don't want to do that. I don't want to stay
with you and just try to work it out because it's what I'm supposed to do.
I want something that I've never had. And because of that I feel selfish.

This is fog talk. Blowing smoke.
We are always being selfish when we want to be happy AT SOMEONE ELSES EXPENSE. You loose, I win. That is selfish.
Lets put it this way –
I am breaking my marriage vows because I want to be happy. So what if I made promises to you, I don’t care about that. Who me? Am I selfish when I lie, break my vows, and sleep with someone else out side or marriage?

And this one:
“ I want something that I’ve never had.”
That is usually bull. When she married you were you in love? Was she?
This is a standard excuse so she won’t feel bad about doing something that is terribly wrong and can’t be justified.

She is doing it because if she doesn’t do it she has to admit the magnitude of the wrong she is inflicting on you.

Just so you know, nothing you say will make much difference right now. You can’t point this stuff out to her and have her change because of what you say.

That’s why you expose the A. She has this fantasy and it is all sweetness and light but when things are exposed it gets ugly and looses it appeal.

Now, I know you weren’t the perfect husband, but don’t fall this stuff.

Re-read about the giver and taker in HNHN and you will see that probably her taker is in charge. If you can give ( plan A) for a while it may be that her giver will help moderate what is going on and you can start to talk to her.
If you were REALLY BAD pre A, it may take a while. Part of this is that an A is an addiction like a drug, it is part physical not all mental. I can’t find the research but it has been posted about before on this site. Plan A can help erase the bad effects of what you did before.

And just to comment on something you said before about not understanding what needs he is meeting. Sometimes there is a need we have that we didn’t know we had. The OP meets it and we fall. She may not be aware. Other times it is the excitement of the affair that they are getting, the chemical addiction ( wish I could find that link) that affairs create inside the brain. I know you have a hard time believing that she could be doing this, because it’s not like her, but this is a real addiction and she is an addict. Expect “addict like” behavior from her until she starts to come out of it. She may not be doing it consciously but she is doing it.

You may not be able to force things to end, but you can hurry them along by realizing that this really is war, and you have to take the gloves off ( as you said) and use the tools you have. DR Harley is good at this, and he is the one that recommends telling everyone about it. Make it uncomfortable as you can for them to continue. Tell the world – OK, that is a figure of speech, you made promises, but unless she did, she ought to tell.

She ( OM’s W) needs to know that marriages really can be fixed.
She needs to know how to increase her chances.
She needs to know that things can actually be better than they were before.
She needs faith, and hope.

You can’t give these things to her, but you can tell her where to look.

Let her blow it wide open if nothing else works.

She's read most everything (not quite, but most) that I have and tells me that I might have to just let her go for her to see how things would be with him.
See, if things were getting uncomfortable for both of them, she may not be saying things like this.

How much, if any, time and effort should I put into the OM? I mean, this guy was closer to me than my own brother for several years. I know everything...most everything about the guy. I have really yet to seriously confront him about things……………………………….Also, the fact that I'm 99.9% sure the A is still ongoing....at least emotionally. Should I email/call/visit him and lay out what I suspect and that I'd like for him to drop off the face of the planet, and do what he told me he'd do 3 months ago?

Or does it matter? Should I just focus on what I can do in my own home and let that speak for itself?

Sometimes The Harleys advise talking to OP, and sometimes they say no. In your case, I would probably tell him you know, and tell him to stay away and give you a chance. It usually doesn’t work ( like telling a drunk to stay away from the bar) but I can’t see you will loose anything. If you can get his W to tell him that if he won’t do NC she will tell the world it may help too. Just tell her not to promise him any thing so she can keep that option.

If you had some kind of leverage to help him want to quit, that would be nice too.

Remember that we are just a support group, not professional counselors. I know you want your pastor to help, and I think that is good, but remember also that the Harleys are very good at what they do, and cost much less than divorce costs.

You still doing OK most of the time?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah...actually I'm doing pretty good at the moment. I'm nervous this week because I know the OMsW is out of the state and he's off work...which means he's 2 miles from my house most all day. He's keeping his 3yo son, so hopefully that'll thwart things.
I'm off most of the time she's gone, but it still bugs me......

It's a hard habit to break even now.

If you've got any thoughts on that, send them on.

You already told her you would tell if asked. Tell him, and let him help.

She uses the things you tell her to further the A, I would quit giving her that kind of info.

I'll pray too.

SS

It would be a good chance to go see him. While he has time to think.

Point to his three year old, ask "what are you doing to him? You can give him another chance by making your M work, and you can give me an chance to make mine work. You owe me that. Tell (Wifes name) that you won't talk to her or see her again for a year and give both of us a chance to make things work."

You can probably do it better, but you get the idea.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You already told her you would tell if asked. Tell him, and let him help.

She uses the things you tell her to further the A, I would quit giving her that kind of info.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These are kind of tying together. The guy that emailed me is a great friend of both my wife and I.
I did show her the email yesterday and she reacted quite calmly to it. I forwarded it to her while I was still at work and she was at home (she has Thursdays off).
We talked at length about it when I got home and she saw no way to get around leveling with him (which is what I wanted her to see) and said that I should handle it how I needed to (I wasn't looking for her permission, just wanting her to see that it wasn't going to stay a secret forever)

Later in the evening she started saying things like "you know you could tell him ________". Not lies, but really sidestepping the issue. One thing she said that almost made me laugh...and I don't know if she was serious or not because I didn't reply to her....was, "You could simply tell him that we both have Biblical reasons to leave each other". I really did almost sit down in the floor and laugh at that one.
Anyway, it seems that the longer she thought about it the more it ate her up and the more she tried to find a way out of it.

I'm about to sit down and try to find a good way to reply to the guy. It's not like I'm going to make my wife out as a monster or anything.....that goes against my very being.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It would be a good chance to go see him. While he has time to think.

Point to his three year old, ask "what are you doing to him? You can give him another chance by making your M work, and you can give me an chance to make mine work. You owe me that. Tell (Wifes name) that you won't talk to her or see her again for a year and give both of us a chance to make things work."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I may go see him tomorrow morning. My wife is out with her sisters doing a yardsale in the morning, so I'd have the time to do it without her asking questions. I've gotta think about it.
I'm really considering it since this morning......from what my wife led me to believe yesterday, she got home about mid afternoon with a bad headache and a need for a nap. I was under the impression that she went right to bed. I called and woke her up right before I left for home.
When I got home I noticed that the cordless phone had the headset plugged into it. We don't use that headset unless we're on the phone for a while.
That got me thinking and this morning I checked the calls made from that phone and sure enough...his home # was on there.
I feel like doing some damage to something this morning.

Anyway, hopefully I'll keep my nerve and go face him down tomorrow.

From HR's wife: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Am I being selfish because I want to be happy? I was thinking about this
today. I am usually always considerate of other peoples feelings and put my
own wants, wishes and even needs to the side so that someone else can have
what they want but for once I don't want to do that. I don't want to stay
with you and just try to work it out because it's what I'm supposed to do.
I want something that I've never had. And because of that I feel selfish. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree that she is just blowing smoke. Yes, she is confused and trying to justify her behavior, but there are important hints in what she says about what is going on with her. It could be "giver snap" - and maybe not just in your marriage, but in her life. It emphasizes why the POJA is so important - the Taker must be satisfied, or eventually, we break. Also, Harley's plan for recovery appeals to the taker in the WS. If you fail to do that, the plan will fail. Also, it sounds a lot to me like this may be a conflict avoidance affair. See the link at: Affair types. If that doesn't quite fit the situation, Mulliken's book: "The State of Affairs" has quite a bit to say about the dynamics of control in marriage, and how those factors play out for "pleaser" or "Giver" types as it relates to affairs. While it may not fit your situation exactly, it should give you some good food for thought.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I disagree that she is just blowing smoke. Yes, she is confused and trying to justify her behavior, but there are important hints in what she says about what is going on with her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I tend to agree. it's not like she's only said these types of things since the affair was made known. For the life of me I can't remember when the first time I heard something similar to this was.....but she's felt that way on and off for a while.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Harley's plan for recovery appeals to the taker in the WS. If you fail to do that, the plan will fail.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I pray to God that I'm doing it right. I feel like I'm getting taken for a ride, so if that means anything good, then I'm doing it right.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sounds a lot to me like this may be a conflict avoidance affair.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure. The affair type links at the page you provided do not work, so I can't read up on it to be sure.
If you mean she did what she did because she didn't care to confront me about problems....I don't think so. She's never been one to back away from an issue if it's bothering her.
Granted, I don't know the exact definition of this type of affair...if you can provide a good source I'd appreciate it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The affair type links at the page you provided do not work, so I can't read up on it to be sure. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Shoot. I know the site has been "under re-construction" for a while, but don't know where else one can find that description. The basic idea is that rather than confront an issue of unmet needs or Love-Busting behavior by you with you, she goes elsewhere for needs, sympathy, support, etc. To a certain degree, almost all affairs are like this. None of those classifications schemes describe a particular affair perfectly, but reading through the links can help you gain a perspective on sources of the problem, which can point one toward solutions (when the links work, that is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ) </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I was thinking about this
today. I am usually always considerate of other peoples feelings and put my
own wants, wishes and even needs to the side so that someone else can have
what they want but for once I don't want to do that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the part that made me think of Mulliken's book, plus her feeling you are holding ankle (control?). For women's affairs, it is usually primarliy an issue of Emotional Needs being neglected, whatever other ancillary causes there may be, so Harley's approach is your best bet. The rest is just sort of "filling in the cracks".

I think John makes some good points. We always do well to examine what the WS says for things we can build upon. He covers that part much better than I did.

When I said blowing smoke, I mean lets examine what she is saying in the context of the commitments we make in our lives. Getting married is not something we do and change whenever the mood strikes us.
Here are some other similar statements ( at least to me they would be similar)

I bought this car and I still owe $10,000 on it but I don&#8217;t like it any more so I am going to quit paying. There is another car I would rather have and I think I&#8217;ll spend my money on that &#8211; after all, I deserve to be happy.

This child is too much trouble. I didn&#8217;t plan on having a child with these problems and I don&#8217;t want to cope with having to buy them braces and get their teeth fixed, so I think I&#8217;ll give them away and adopt another one. I deserve to be happy.

Now, I feel that someone that says they can get out of a marriage and be with someone else because they like them more and deserve to be happy is doing this same kind of thing. When we make serious commitments we do what it takes to keep them, we don&#8217;t bail out.

There are reasons for divorce. Some problems are very serious - abuse and adultery come to mind. If High_Road is guilt of these then PERHAPS she would be justified .

John, does this explain better what I meant?

High, are the problems she had, or has with you that serious? If so, come clean and tell us what is going on.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is the part that made me think of Mulliken's book, plus her feeling you are holding ankle (control?). For women's affairs, it is usually primarliy an issue of Emotional Needs being neglected, whatever other ancillary causes there may be, so Harley's approach is your best bet. The rest is just sort of "filling in the cracks".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've ordered that book (and a couple others) since I'm pretty much caught up on my reading for now. Hopefully I'll find some helpful ideas and info there. Thanks for the suggestion.

I feel that it is a case of her going so long with me not meeting her needs that she finally just doesn't care any more.

SS,

Yes, your analogies are true. I think they fit perfectly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">High, are the problems she had, or has with you that serious? If so, come clean and tell us what is going on.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, they are not "that" serious. My wife would have a stroke if she knew I just wrote that.
I will admit to my faults. I have confessed them before man and before God. I have been faithful to her in our marriage and I have never laid a finger on her in anger.
One thing that she said to me a while back that has stuck in my mind is that if the emotional scars that she feels she has were visible on the outside, that nobody would say one word against her if she left me.
I don't deny that I have done emotional damage to her by not meeting her needs. I think the damage is amplified now by the current situation, but I would never deny that it's there.

So in a short answer, no, I have not abused or cheated on her.
I will confess that I have not always behaved myself well on the internet (so much temptation there) and she knows about that. But I do not believe that figures in here. Reason I say that is because that fact about me came out only about a week before she told me of the affair.
As a side there, being honest with her has allowed me to conquor that vice.

So from my end, there is nothing that serious between us. Serious problems yes, but nothing I would consider grounds for divorce.

There are two basic reasons Why Women Leave Men: Abuse and neglect. Neglect is by FAR the more common reason (like 95%+). So, don't belittle her "scars".

I'm not belittling them whatsoever. If my post made it sound that I am, that's not the case.

I feel that my wife has every right to feel the way she does about me. I know I have damaged her by my actions.

What I don't believe is that I deserved to have my wife fall in love with someone else under my nose.

No, she in no way deserved to be with someone that didn't take care of her needs, but by the same token, I don't deserve what's happened now.

I do believe that the hurt and pain that she truly has and feels is greatly magnified by the fact that she's also trying to decide between 2 men. And the past is something that, if dwelt on, makes me the much less attractive choice.

<small>[ May 23, 2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

High,
Johns W had an affair and they probably would be considered recovering, or recovered. He has some pretty good insight into her feelings because they have talked this stuff through. I think that's where he is coming from - from his W's point of view. (John, correct me if I am wrong.)

John, what do you think he ought to do now to get things going? Would reading more along the lines you suggested help him understand her feelings so he could do a better plan A?

SS

I understand.

I just wanted to be clear that I'm not trying to downplay my wife's feelings. Even though she's not to the point of working on our marriage, she has talked to me at length and it's not all been blame and "I'm leaving". We have had some clear, to the point discussions that I believe reflect her true feelings.
But I won't dare say I know much of anything right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I welcome anybody that has any ideas of things I can do as I proceed. I take everything that is said seriously (though thoughtfully).

Thanks for all the help so far.