Well, a planned "good weekend" together has started out as a complete disaster.

With the holiday coming and us having a long weekend, my wife and I had planned to try to have some fun together.
We went to a ball game tonight with her brother and his girlfriend. Things started out fine, but later in the evening she asked me if our SS teacher had emailed me back. (I mailed him this morning with a question before I told him what was going on. My wife was aware of the first email I sent, but I did not tell her about the 2nd emmail that told him of what had happened).
I said yes and that's when the night started going straight to he**.
She wanted to know why I had not informed her that he had email back and wanted to know what I had told him that I could not share with her.
I had no defense. I told her there was nothing in the email that I didn't want her to see (and there wasn't) and tried to explain that I was uncomfortable with the possibility that all info I passed to her going to OM and them discussing it.
That apparently came off as a really weak reason and things just got worse and worse. I could not convince her that I hadn't said something that I didn't want her to read. No matter what I said, it got thrown back into my face.
She says that it's fine, and she'll just take my word for it, but she's going to start looking for apartments ASAP (her boss will probably give her one for free. Leaving me will probably result in an easier life than she's ever had with me because her boss will most likely provide for her).

We talked at length when we got home and finally things sort of stabelized. Her mind is still made up, but at least she's not fuming any more.

Guys & gals....I know it's still probably early in the game, but I feel that I'm at the very end of the road.
I'm sitting her at 1 in the morning writing this while my wife sleeps in the guest room for the first time in 3 months (only 3 times total). I just don't see how things can get better. How the way she feels can change. I mean....the horrible things she says.....how can she ever change that? If she truly feels that way?

I know I sound defeated....maybe I'm tired and just can't take it, but I don't know how to handle this. The stress and the unreturned love is killing me.

Another thing is that we have a trip planned in June that is kind of business/pleasure. The guy that I'm working for is paying for us to go to the Bahamas for a week to do a job. If my wife leaves now, I also have the issue of at least $500 -$1000 in non refundable travel expenses that I'll have to deal with.
Right now I'm so desperate I'm just trying to get her to stay around long enought to get that trip over with so I won't have to explain her not going and pay that $$ out of pocket.

Forgive me folks, I'm just having a bad night. I probably need a whack in the head......but I feel like I just need a break.

Is any of this "normal"? You keep saying it is, but it's just so hard to accept this behavior as normal.

I'm also seriously considering seeing if my pastor can meet with me ASAP tomorrow so I can get this out to him. I know that will probably make my wife furious and I know will at least result in her not going back to church. Should I just do it? Should I seek help without worrying what she'll think or do?

<small>[ May 24, 2003, 12:21 AM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

HighRoad,

IMHO, and note that I have only read the last page of your post..... your W appears to be either up to something and tried to stir up the fog muck with you or something else.

Why? Because the following comments/threat about her moving out and her boss 'providing' for her sounds like she is challenging your status.

Becareful. You will feel like you are at the end of your rope every time she puts a new fog spin on your direction. See it appears she has other plans going on. You mentioned a few days(?) ago about talking to OM? Not real clear so please forgive me if I am not getting the fact correct. What happened with that plan?

IMHO, talking with the OM and 'telling him' what to do often does not work. Why? Well would you listen to someone who you already think isn't good enough for who or what you want. Would you listen to someone who may be telling you to give up what you are pursuing? These OMs and WS' may be in the fog but they are also quite selfish/greedy about what they consider their own. Oh yea.... that's right.... OPs consider WS' THEIR property/possession/partner. So the BS is often looked upon as the intruder/enemy of the Ws' family! Go figure. Now that's fog.

So what to do? Well, I would let her go prove herself. If she is sooo confident that her 'boss' will 'provide' for her and you are running out of steam trying to prove you are worthy of her, then it may be time to go to plan B. Check it out with your MC or Steve or Jennifer. Read up on plan B so you use it correctly. Then start identifying your boundaries.....this takes a while but when it kicks in, it kicks in, you will know, like riding a bike. Don't let her put on you those phony statements like "I don't know if I can stay with you because I am afraid it will go back to what it was or you will not keep changing." Chaning into what? Back to What? The BS figures that means something bad, the WS never explains and both have come to different conclusions....causing more confusion. Think about it, what situation would warrant that type of statement when the person (BS) making positive changes (noticeable to many) gets compared to someone who does't give a [censored]. DON'T fall for that line. It is a cheap WS' threat.

Learn to babble against the WS if necessary and you can stomach it. Also strengthen your personal support group.

Keep working on you. Keep posting.

take care,
L.

<small>[ May 24, 2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, and note that I have only read the last page of your post..... your W appears to be either up to something and tried to stir up the fog muck with you or something else.

Why? Because the following comments/threat about her moving out and her boss 'providing' for her sounds like she is challenging your status.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whether my wife is up to something is still out for debate. I'm not sure. I feel that something is going to happen soon. Whether good or bad I don't know and what effect it will have I don't know. May be her moving out or something like that.

As far as her boss providing for her....those are my words and thoughts, not hers. I just know the man. He's a really good guy, but when it comes to marriage I don't really think he's the greatest judge of what's good and bad. He's divorced himself (I'm not judging him by that) and I know that my wife has told him a little of what she feels. Not about the affair of course, but of how things are between us (or have been). His reply to her was...."well if you don't love someone you just don't love them". He just seems to be the type that thinks, Just give it a good try and if it doesn't work out, there'll be something else out there for you.
Again, I'm not judging the man, but he's not a religious man whatsoever so I don't expect his beliefs to align with mine in any way.

I just believe that if she does move out, she'll approach her boss for a place to live. He owns a ton of rental properties and would gladly give her whatever she asked for.
Maybe he wouldn't provide for her exactly, but I know that he's either let her stay somewhere rent free for a while, or give her a great deal.
That's just how he's been to us as a couple. He's a very generous guy. Granted if he knew the whole story, he might not be quite as quick to be that way. But I don't feel it's my place to go over her head and fill him in.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Becareful. You will feel like you are at the end of your rope every time she puts a new fog spin on your direction. See it appears she has other plans going on. You mentioned a few days(?) ago about talking to OM? Not real clear so please forgive me if I am not getting the fact correct. What happened with that plan?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's definite something's going on.
As for talking to the OM. I had every plan to go by there today. Not to make demands, but to try to see if the man has any type of soul left in him.
But I decided to call the guy at my church that I had been emailing. We talked for about an hour and a half and he knows the whole story now. Just to make myself feel better, I kind of let him express to me what he thought was going on (mostly about who it was) and I confirmed. Once it was out, I was able to let go and get most everything out.
I wasn't looking for ideas really, just someone I know to kind of confirm that I'm on the right track and give me some encouragement. I feel tons better and thought better of a showdown. I just don't feel I have the mental energy to do that right now.

As for going to Plan B. I'm not ready for that yet. I don't believe it's been long enough. I really think that she'll move out before that comes (unless God does a huge work in her heart, or the OM falls off the face of the planet).
I truly feel that I'm just starting to Plan A...at least in an organized manner. I also don't feel I'm doing a great job. I just tend to get too emotional. Every time we have a talk and she expresses these feelings, I just can't take it and roll with it. I'm just overcome by what I hear. I'm sure that's not helping things any.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Learn to babble against the WS if necessary and you can stomach it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't think I'm stupid here, but explain this....

Hi,

U R doing ok. U R going in the right direction. Due to all that fog that keeps spewing from the WS' mouth, the BS often gets to where they need to vent.... hence the need for personal support groups/mc or ic/reading books/questionnaires and posting here.

As for your W's boss, well if you were in his shoes would you appreciate it if someone took advantage of your generousity to enable an A? That is the position your W may be putting him in under the pretenses of 'woe is me' pity party.

Maybe just a small note to him is not to put in your court but to make sure he is aware of what he is dealing with. If he is a good business man, he would appreciate that.

When I shared the news to others, I stated my intentions were not to turn H's family against him but they needed to be aware of what the 'real' picture was and then it would be their choice on where they stand. I also stated that is what I would want them to do for me.

You can even tell him that from a business prospective it is better to see the clear picture than just pieces beclouded with A fog.

I am sure you can rephrase it better than I.

As for fog babble, well it goes by many descriptions. That is one I choose to use. For me Fog Babble is when the BS gets smart and uses the WS words against the A and their fog talk. What you need to realize is that the rebuttle from the Ws will throw the BS for a loop almost everytime. Why? Because it is not logical and the BS struggles to make logic out of the most stupid fogtalk. It is very frustrating. Have you experienced that?

Well if you have, using fog babble will help reduce your frustration and put it back where it belongs. On the WS and OP.

Here are some examples:

WS: I need to move out and find myself (blah blah blah)....

BS fogbabble: Yes you do. Let me know if you find the real W....

WS: I love you but don't love you love you.

BS fogbabble: Yea, me too.

NOTE: No explanation is given by the BS. Let the WS ask for clarification. That assures you you now have their attention. REAL IMPORTANT: Don't assume you understand what they mean.

WS: I see your changes and they are good but I am afraid you might not stay that way.

BS: Well I am sorry you can feel more positive about my good changes but I see your changes and they are bad, I am afraid they might stay that way.

Are you getting the drift? It takes some time to do this. This is NOT normal for normal people. In fact some of us have to practice our rebuttal in front of a mirror so when we have to use it, we have a better idea on what to say.

Is is meant to be disrespectful? A bit. Why do it? Because it is a self defense mechanism and a tool to not take the guilt that the WS is trying soooo hard to give without guilt. They often want the BS to volunteer to take their guilt for them.

ex: My WS told me to hook up with OW's H. Thought we would be better suited for each other. Imagine that? My fog babble response was "What an idea, let me think about it." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Ws even tried to set me up with a friend of his saying finding a replacement would be better for our child and I. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Ever watch spongebob? There is an episode where Patrick Star says about the aliens they were supposedly fighting, he said something like: "U mean they took our thoughts that they thought we were thinking we thought?" Now that is babble.

L.

Hope this helps.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe just a small note to him is not to put in your court but to make sure he is aware of what he is dealing with. If he is a good business man, he would appreciate that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'll consider that if things get to that point. I know that doing that will make things so much worse temporarily anyway.
I actually mentioned that to my W yesterday. I asked her how much her boss knew and she said pretty much everything but the A (which makes it sound like a different situation than it is, even though everything she's told him is true). I asked her if she thought he would feel any different about helping her out if he knew the whole story.
Her spin was that it wouldn't matter because she has put in almost 8 years working for him and doing a good job and she hoped he would feel like helping her no matter what the situation.
And that may be the truth or may be fog...not sure.

Anyway, I don't have time to address many issues, but after Friday, our weekend went a whole lot better. I don't think she talked to OM yesterday, even though I was out of the house for a few hours. I know they talked Thur, Fri & Sat, but I think I had her to myself yesterday and will again today. Thank God for small blessings.

Anyway, keep us in your thoughts. We've been able to calmly talk about many things and I think some things have gotten through to her for her to at least think about.

Keep doing the best you can, don't react to the bad things she says when she says them. It is good sometimes to ask for time to think before you reply to hot topics.

You sound better in this last post, I hope you are better.

Not much said any more about having OW tell the world. I can leave that alone if you want, but it is still one of the best ways to put preasure on the A and take away the thrill of it for the parties involved.

Still praying for you.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep doing the best you can, don't react to the bad things she says when she says them. It is good sometimes to ask for time to think before you reply to hot topics.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this is something that is becoming a have-to. I'm getting better at not reacting in a bad way....thankfully I've really yet to get angry when she says something....usually just emotional and kind of slip into a state of disbelief at what I'm hearing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You sound better in this last post, I hope you are better.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I am much better. Friday night was the low point.....it was her strongest threat yet to leave.....I think I handled it alright overall, but I was extremely tired and emotionally drained, so I know I could have handled it better. I just felt so hopeless and defeated, but I know that was because I felt so run down.
For the last month or so, I've had big trouble getting a good nights sleep. I'm going to bed much earlier than I ever have, but no matter what, I wake up around 2:30 (sometimes earlier) and am unable to do more than doze and sleep really lightly the rest of the night. I know it's connected to the current happenings because I've never had trouble sleeping before this.
Anyway, that seems to really be draining me during the week when I have to get up early.
This weekend I was able to catch up some by sleeping during the day (which I am able to do).

Saturday was not the greatest day since we spent a good part of the day apart, and she had contact with OM.

Sunday was great. Since she knows I've talked to the man at church about things, she said that she would not be going to church this Sunday (and probably for a while) and she asked me to stay home with her. I took that as a her possibly reaching out for me to be with her. I know that if I had gone without her and been gone a good part of the day, she would have been able to stay on the phone with OM for hours. But she asked me to stay with her.....and part of me wonders if she did that so she wouldn't feel the temptation to call him. I don't know, but it was a good thing.
I stayed home and we slept until early afternoon. Didn't do much at all during the day but sit around and talk. And it seemed that she was able to take alot that I said and that it got past the wall that she usually has thrown up to keep me and my words out.
It wound up that I had to be gone for a few hours Sunday night (I head up the tech team at my church and none of my help was going to be there for the PM service) and I was almost sure that she would spend the time talking to OM.
But later that night I was able to check all PC usage and all calls made out from our house, and from what I can tell, she did not contact him. I don't think he would have called....he's never called our house before to my knowledge.
So I was extremely impressed that she let that opportunity pass.

Monday was a great day too. We were together all day and I know for sure that we had the whole day to ourselves with no contact from or to OM.

We talked last night about how good a couple of days it had been and her reasoning for it was that we did not have the normal stress and responsibility of our day to day lives. No work, nothing hanging over our heads etc. When things are like that, she says it's easy for us to have a good day together.
This morning I told her that even though what she said is true to an extent, that I believed the reason things were so good was that I had her to myself for 2 days straight. That she wasn't having to play the role of the tug-of-war rope, getting pulled one way then another. That if we could have 2 days that were exclusively "us", then what could we do with 2 weeks or 2 months?
I was hesitant to say that because I didn't want to tick her off, but she got really quiet and I could tell that she was thinking about what I said. I hope that it will give her pause and make her think.

BTW, on Saturday, I did get her to agree not to push moving out at all until after our trip next month. I did not say that after that it would not be a big deal, so I think the "agreement" was all to my advantage. When we talked about that, she asked if after that time I would be "ok" with her leaving and I said absolutely not. But I just didn't want her to bring that up or check on any of that until after we got back, then she could see how she felt about it.
Anyway, who knows if that was good or not, but at least I feel that I don't have to worry about her skipping out on that trip now. So that's some stress off of me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not much said any more about having OW tell the world. I can leave that alone if you want, but it is still one of the best ways to put preasure on the A and take away the thrill of it for the parties involved.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, the OW has been out of town since last week, and right before she left I kind of told her that us having contact with each other was really putting stress on things in my house (which is was) and that at this point I didn't think it was the greatest thing for us to be talking.
I never heard anything back from her, so I guess she got the point.
I don't feel like going back on that at this point, plus I know that if she did break things wide open that my wife would know it started with me. I just don't know how to go about that yet.

I'm trying not to read too much into the last couple of days, but it's hard not to gather hope from it.
I guess we'll see if anything else comes from it.

Here's a question....

I've been reading a bunch of other posts, gleaning info from there and ran across something that someone said as a reply. I've heard it over and over, but it was said (speaking to a WS) that they were the one that chose the A. Instead of turning to someone outside of the marriage, they should have dealt with the issues with their spouse.

That is not a quote, but the general idea. I know that nothing justifies an A. I know that, I know it, I know it. But alot of times when something like the above is said, it's said like the WS never tried to make things work. Like they just didn't handle their frustrtation with their spouse in the right way. Like they didn't try long enough to make things work.

Yeah, I'm sure there are alot of situations like that. But what about when the WS tried for years to get their spouse to wake up to the problems in the relationship? Where they would plead for help and their cries would fall on deaf ears?
When they would see no response, but say "Lord, they won't listen to me, so I have to leave it in Your hands. I vow to do everything in my power to be the spouse I need to be and I trust you to open their eyes to the problems". And do that to their fullest until they could take it no more and the cycle starts over again, and again, and again.
Until the day that they simply give up. They just figure that there's nothing that's going to get their attention. They've been taught from childhood that marriage is forever so they figure they're trapped in a one way relationship for the rest of their lives.

Then someone else shows interest and we all know what happens......

Again, I'm not trying to get someone to say "It was bound to happen" or justify an A. Not at all. And I promise I'm not having a pity party. I've just been thinking of her side of things.
I know she's in a fog and that she's using the past as an excuse ot justify things currently going on, but dang! I just wonder how I could have been so blind.
I mean, just how long are you supposed to stay in a crappy situation where the other person won't open their eyes.

Just to clarify, nothing has happened with my W today or anything like that, it just happened to be my line of thinking today. I've been thinking over the last 3 months and things that have been said.
Things like "We'll see if you're as willing to wait for me as I was for you" (not an exact quote but the basic jist) and things like that. Mostly stuff that I should let roll off, but there are some things that probably aren't just fog talk.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Johns W had an affair and they probably would be considered recovering, or recovered. He has some pretty good insight into her feelings because they have talked this stuff through. I think that's where he is coming from - from his W's point of view. (John, correct me if I am wrong.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Recovering. We have a way to go yet. No, it's not my wife's point of view, exactly. And, I am not trying to say that an affair is justified under any circumstances. There is just the realization that women are emotionally damaged by neglect and mild abuse in ways that we never understand as men, because it would not affect us in the same way. That HR may even now be belittling his wife's pain without knowing it. Gary Smalley uses an illustration of a rock (like maybe 30 pounds) and a pebble (like one-half inch in diameter). He says we say something to our wives that to us would be a pebble dropped on our toe - we would barely notice it - but to our wives, it is a rock - their whole foot is smashed and they have cuts and broken bones and it will take them six month to recover. (OK, maybe I am exaggerating the illustration a little - but you get the idea.)

There was a poster whose wife had never had sex with anyone else even before marriage, because of her moral and religious beliefs, and who was involved in an emotional affair, who said that if he found out it had actually been a PA, he would be gone, because the betrayal would have been too much. As one who has never been with anyone but my W, and who thinks loyalty and sex are really important, but was getting closer and closer to having an affiar myself before DDay, in part because my marriage was so bad, I could understand a little bit about how painful it must have been for this poster's wife to get to that point, if she did. So, I asked him to imagine how much pain she must have been in to throw away all that she believed in for a PA, if she did. Does that make sense?

It still does not justify an affair. But, thinking about that may help us understand our WS's.

HR: That planned trip may be a really good chance for you to re-connect. A longer version of the last two days, if you don't work too much.

<small>[ May 27, 2003, 02:46 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is just the realization that women are emotionally damaged by neglect and mild abuse in ways that we never understand as men, because it would not affect us in the same way. That HR may even now be belittling his wife's pain without knowing it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do realize that things that greatly affect her might not be as big a deal to me and in some ways, vice-versa. I do see that. That's why I'm trying to look at things from her point of view instead of just how I see it (last post).
If I still seem to be minimizing her hurt, please tell me because it's not my intention at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Does that make sense?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I can understand it to an extent, because both my wife and I had never been with anyone else before marriage. And it's one thing that's been extremely hard for me to get over. But I can see it from her side too. It it was so important for her to wait until marriage, how horrible must things have been for her to get to the point of letting the A get to the point of sex? I think of that often.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HR: That planned trip may be a really good chance for you to re-connect. A longer version of the last two days, if you don't work too much.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, we're both really looking forward to our trip. I shouldn't be away from her all that much. we're gone 7 days and I figure I'll be busy during day, 3 days. The rest we'll have to do whatever (which is not much where we're going thankfully).
I know anything can happen before then, but keep us in your prayers from 6/11 - 6/18. Hopefully that will give her alot to think about. My biggest fear is not taking full advantage of the opportunity I have.

The very short answer is that there is no excuse or reason to go outside the marriage. There are reasons to end the marriage in some cases, and then being free, to seek companionship.

The problem with "don't I deserve to be happy" is that it never affects just one person. If you want the whole picture you have to ask " Do others deserve to be miserable? " Or do I deserve to be happy at others expense."

Did OM's wife emotionally abandon her H too?

Now, you and I and all of us know that when we deal with human dynamics the rules get broken. If you are speaking for yourself then I can see why your wife felt she had a green light. She felt your marriage didn't exist any longer so she WAS free. If she tried over and over and got no response then that could be her mind set.

My wife felt much the same for a long time. She told me later that she knew she didn't have the right to leave, so she had to stick it out no matter what. I did find MB on my own because I knew things were not as good as they should be, but for quite a few years she didn't have much hope. Society does provide an out, and it's called divorce. I suspect if she had filed it would have gotten your attention just as well as an A and not been nearly as painful for either of you.

I think having an A would be equated with vigilante justice or taking the law into ones own hands. It gets results but it is not right or proper and it makes the party having the A just as guilty or perhaps more so if that is possible. Is adultery no longer adultery if the persons involved think they have a good reason?

I am trying to cover both sides for you, and the answer of course after all this background information is that two wrongs don't make a right, never have, never will.

Neglect is a terrible thing and it kills many marriages. Adultery is as bad or probably worse.

You do well to consider her feelings and to treat her as she ought to have been treated all along. You see now how a little bit of love affects a person starved for love.

I mean, just how long are you supposed to stay in a crappy situation where the other person won't open their eyes.

"If the city or county won't give me satisfaction, I'll go over to my neighbors home and blow him away. I have called the police hundreds of times, and they won't do anything, so now it's my turn."

Like I said, society provides a way, and it's called divorce, not adultery.

It's time for you to go on. If you have lived with this shame long enough to change your direction, quit thinking about it. Worry about how you are going to fix it. Put your effort into going on.

I notice there are now 27,828 registered members on this site( and it goes up daily) . How come it took all of us that long to get it?

I just checked again and noticed that John posted again. I think he does a better job of explaining this than I do, but I'll let this stand anyway.

You can't go back, you can't change the past. Now that you know you can only try with all your heart and all your strength to fix it. You can't know if you will succeed, but you have to do the work anyway. Succeed or fail, you will need to know you did all you could do to save it. I don't know everything but I think you have a good chance to make it work if you keep after it. Don't use your energy worrying, use it for doing the work.

SS

<small>[ May 27, 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SS: thanks for the kind words.

HR wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It it was so important for her to wait until marriage, how horrible must things have been for her to get to the point of letting the A get to the point of sex? I think of that often. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was my main point. I don't think you are necessarily belittling her feelings. There was something you said in that earlier post which I pointed out that made me think you might be, which is what started this tangent. It is easy to do without even realizing it. SS wrote: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I notice there are now 27,828 registered members on this site( and it goes up daily) . How come it took all of us that long to get it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One of the questions I ask myself with some frequency. And that is just a snowflake on the tip of the iceberg.

High Road,

This all sounds so eerily familiar. (You can read the details of my situation in another thread on this forum "To Confront or Not").

I am a guy (like JohnH39 mentioned) whose W, because of her strong religious and moral convictions...and youth, never had physical relations prior to marriage. Of course she resents the fact that I did.

I also know that I'm not very good at satisfying her emotional needs. I am guilty of all the usual male emotional crimes...lack of attention, not conversing when she needs to, not sharing my feelings, etc etc. And that is a big part of the reason I am torn about how to react to her involvement with an OM. I am convinced it is only to fill an emotional need and could never possibly get to a PA. But after reading through your story, I am concerned...very concerned.

So even a very straight and true, devout, completely honest W can go astray if the conditions are bad enough? The many kind posters on this forum have been very supportive in telling me that nothing justifies an A. But like you, I can't help feeling responsible by virtue of my neglect and other factors.

I have an opportunity now to rebuild. I pray it isn't too late.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did OM's wife emotionally abandon her H too?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know if you asked that to get an answer, but honestly I'm not sure of the answer to that. OM told me the night he confronted me to "apologize" that he realized that he never really loved his wife.
As for her side of the story....I'm not sure. Thankfully she never shared that with me. From knowing them, I wouldn't say that would be the case. She's a stay at home mom and always seemed to be very caught up with him and attentive. Of course looks are deceiving and I have to say again...I don't know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect if she had filed it would have gotten your attention just as well as an A and not been nearly as painful for either of you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, that's the truth.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's time for you to go on. If you have lived with this shame long enough to change your direction, quit thinking about it. Worry about how you are going to fix it. Put your effort into going on.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel that I am. I was asking that to get clarification....I wasn't beating myself with the thoughts. I don't want to lose those thoughts completely because they help me see what I need to be working towards.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was my main point. I don't think you are necessarily belittling her feelings. There was something you said in that earlier post which I pointed out that made me think you might be, which is what started this tangent. It is easy to do without even realizing it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it is easy to belittle without realizing it.
I appreciate you being honest and saying what you felt.

One note....

My wife sent me an email just a little while ago and asked me for my thoughts on it. She wants me to send it to the guy at church that I talked to.
Basically it's a plea for him to keep the information to himself.
I won't quote the whole thing because she may revise it, but she starts out sayiing that she was aware that I had "filled him in" on the situation (which I really didn't...the only way he got specific details is by asking questions which I answered truthfully).
She said she wanted to send a heartfelt request for the information to stay between the 3 of us. That although she hoped once her decison was made that he would continue to hold the info, that she asked that he at least not say anything until that time.
She said though she felt hope for a future with me at times, that there were many issues on both sides that had to be worked through and decisions that we had to make.
She said that she knew it would be helpful to have others praying for us during this time, that having it spread throughout the church would not help us at all.

There was more, but that was the meat of it. She asked for my suggestions and I told her that I just wanted to clarify a couple of things with her, but I thought the email was fine if that's what she wanted to tell him.
I said that I hadn't "filled him in" at all. The only info I shared was my own feelings and struggles. He got the details of what happened by asking me about it.
Also that she made it sound like we both had decisions to make and issues to work through. I told her to remember that my decision has been made and that though I do have issues to work through, those scars would heal with time spent with her. They are not things I hinge my desire to be with her on.

I said these things very lovingly and with the stressed point that I didn't say them wanting her to change the email, but just so she would know in case she didn't already.

Anyway, she emailed it back a second ago with those thing changed. The new one says that she understood that I had "spoken" with him about our situation.
And the second part she changed to .......there are many hurts and scars that have to be worked through on both of our ends and decisions that have to be made (mostly on my part as ____ has already decided what he wants)......

Anyway, I told her I'd send it for her....I don't know what she's wanting to accomplish or what this means. I know she doesn't want a public spectacle, and neither do I.....

What do you folks think?

Troubled,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also know that I'm not very good at satisfying her emotional needs. I am guilty of all the usual male emotional crimes...lack of attention, not conversing when she needs to, not sharing my feelings, etc etc. And that is a big part of the reason I am torn about how to react to her involvement with an OM. I am convinced it is only to fill an emotional need and could never possibly get to a PA. But after reading through your story, I am concerned...very concerned.

So even a very straight and true, devout, completely honest W can go astray if the conditions are bad enough?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one is exempt from the temptation of an A. I know it sounds like a quote from a book, but it is true. Not me, not you, not anyone here. No, nothing makes it right.

If you believe that this is happening in your marriage, then you need to face up to it and find out for yourself. Don't hide from it or tell yourself that it's innocent. You should talk to your wife about it.
If she won't give you a straight answer, you should be able to determine the truth from whatever she tells you.

If it is the case, you need to focus on fixing what's wrong with the relationship from your end. Most everybody here can give better advise from that angle, so I'll stop before I get in over my head.

Yes, it can happen to the most devout person. It happened to my wife who I never thought could do something like that. But I have not lost hope. I know some of my post may sound desperate, and some of it is....I have my times....but from the beginning I have had faith that my marriage can be restored.

As far as mailing him asking him not to tell - you have to do what is in your heart to do.

If the WW will commit to NC, recovery will be easier if not many know. If she will not commit, people need to know to help her.

You are there, you can call this one. I trust you by now to do it right. Do you?

SS

SS,

I'm fine handling things as they arise. I wasn't really asking what I should do, I just wondered if anyone read anything into that email that I missed.
I understand her not wanting people to know. I've been in the same boat to an extent, and I know it's gotta be 100 times more for her. She doesn't want to be judged....whether that's a selfish thing or not, I can understand it compeltely.

I did send the message. I had already told the guy not to say anything to anyone, so I felt that it wasn't going to really change anything. But if it would make her feel better to say it herself, that's fine.

I'm kind of high-stepping today because of some possible positive happenings. See what you think. I know it's not the victory and I'm trying not to read too much into it, but I see it as a good thing.

I got home a few minutes before my wife yesterday, so I met her at her car when she pulled in. I could tell that she was really bothered by something. It was written all over her face that she was just really down about things.
I didn't push her to talk since that usually leads down the wrong road. I knew she'd open up if she felt like it.
Almost as soon as we walked in the door, she started to open up, which surprised me since she usually just walks around with a long face. It's normally later in the evening before she'll tell me what's bothering her (which isn't normal for her, just normal as of late).
Anyway, all night last night she was trying to get me to tell her how she could know that things would be OK with us if she stays with me. How she could know that she'd be happy and not regret choosing me. Over and over again she asked the same question, only phrased a different way.
I was as reassuring as I could possibly be, but my basic answer was that I could not show her the future and tell her with 100% certainty how things would be down the road. The only thing I could assure her of is how I was going to be. That I was going to be the best husband that I could be from now until the end of our lives.
She sees the changes I've made and is very encouraged by them, but I know there are some other things that she wants to see that just don't happen overnight.
One thing is her need for financial support. We both work, and I know that we'd be OK on just my check, but we've gotten used to living pretty well with 2 jobs. If she were to quit her job, things would be tighter than they ever have been with us. She wants things to be comfortable with just me working. Not that she minds working, she just doesn't want to feel that she has to work for us to make it.
I guess I've always reacted negatively to her saying things like that, and that's something she's always had a problem with. I see that it's not selfish of her to want that. She's a woman, and most women have a built in desire to be at home. That's that, and she should have that if she wants it.
I see that now and am determined to make that happen for her. It's just that it's not something I can do overnight, you know?

Anyway, things went on like that for hours. She wanted me to be able to tell her for sure that she wouldn't regret things, which I'm not going to do because this is something she's gotta decide for herself, not have me pursuade her to do it.

Anyway, overall, we had a good night because things were close between us.
Then, this morning right before she left for work, she stopped and asked me if she could tell me something that would "stay between you and me" (there's that phrase again) and I said yes, she could tell me anything.
She told me that she had told OM that she didn't need to be talking to him "for now".
Now, I know that's not NC by any means since she put that "for now" on there, but I do see it as a huge opportunity.
I really didn't know what to say to her other than I thought that was a great thing and that she had done the right thing by telling him that.
We had a conversation while I was writing this and she's saying that she just feel that she doesn't need that influence while she "thinks". Granted, she still feels that once we get back from our trip that she'll see how she feels about moving out then because she says that she thinks that she needs to be alone and be strong on her own so she can make this touted decision.
I'm just praying that she'll hold to NC for the next few weeks and her thinking will change some. Enough for her to stay at home, you know? I know that she won't get over him in 3 weeks, but hopefully something can come of this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So even a very straight and true, devout, completely honest W can go astray if the conditions are bad enough? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. And, physical affairs usually start out as emotional affairs.

My wife had a couple of emotional affairs that I was aware of as "friendships that are close enough they make me a little uncomfortable". But, I thought that jealousy was a bad thing, and therefore did not express mine, and told myself that I "shouldn't" feel that way. In one case, the man was clearly a person of great integrity, and I was not worried about their relationship getting physical, (though it came much closer to that than I was aware of at the time). I was totally clueless as to how dangerous those relationshis really were, that they were flashing red lights that should have told me that we have serious problems in our relationship, and that they were laying the groundwork for her eventual affair, because each successive relationship was emotionally closer. Since the first two did not progress to a physical affair, my W believed that she "could handle it", and was less concerned about apppropriate boundaries - until there were no boundaries.

The lessons just keep on coming in on how it's not a good thing to read into anything anymore.

We've had a pretty heated email exchange (heated on her end, I'm trying to keep a cool head and should probably just not reply to her at all).

She started by emailing me and saying that she hoped I was encouraged by what she had told me this morning (that she wasn't in contact with OM right now) but that didn't mean she had made a decision. She still felt like she'd need time on her own to think objectively....to get away from both of us so she can think.

I replied saying that I was encouraged by it and was glad she had made that decision and I hoped that it would open the door for us to further our relationship, though I know she didn't do it for that purpose.
That was pretty civil, but I sent her another email later, and said something about doing what is "right". I didn't say it ugly, I really said it because she said something last night about knowing what was right but not wanting to do it.
I said something like it was hard for me to look at things sometimes because what I want and what is "right" seem to line up with each other.
I guess that was a bad idea because it implies what what she's thinking of is "wrong". Granted, that's the truth, but I guess me telling the truth isn't a great idea right now?

Below are some exerpts of what I got in the replies....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I do feel like doing what is right will get me screwed in the end. I
have always had this huge burden to do "what's right" and so far in life it
hasn't gotten me very far. I don't usually do what I want to do, I do what
is right. Most of the time, it has really sucked and I've been taken
advantage of because of that. I'm sick of feeling that way! Shouldn't
doing what's right feel better than this? I know that doing what is right
is not supposed to be easy BUT hey, is it EVER supposed to be easy, feel
good or feel right?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's easy for you because what you "want" just happens to be what lines up
with what we've always been taught is "right". But what if it is not
"right". What if me getting out of an unhappy marriage and bettering myself
and going on with my life is what is "right"? Maybe God doesn't intend for
me to be in an unhappy marriage. What if I didn't marry the "right" person
to begin with? Does marrying the "wrong" person make it "right"?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I told her that the questions she had about what was right and what God would have us do might be better directed at someone that could give her better answers than me. I just don't feel like the best person in the world to give the best answer to things like that. Here was here reply....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because I'm going to get the same crap that I've always been fed. God wants
you to stay with that person no matter if they are beating you, neglecting
you, etc. STAY WITH THEM...that is what is right. You know...the
independent Baptist way of looking at things...there's no other way of
looking at ANYTHING.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She then went on to ask why certain people in our church who are divorced and remarried are so happy in their present marriage. If it was so "wrong" of them to divorce in the first place, then why are they so happy and productive now?
I don't have answers for that and I wish she wouldn't ask me things like that. It backs me into a corner that I don't know how to get out of other than just saying that I can't answer.

<small>[ May 28, 2003, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

The bottom line is that you can't reason with someone that feels like she is feeling right now.

You had best say something like this ( but put it in your own words.) I am not trying to put words in your mouth, just give ideas.

" I think you make some very good points. I don't have all the answers. I admit that I am selfish right now, I want you back, and I want all of you, not just little bits at odd times when you are not busy with someting else. I have hope for our marriage. I have hope that I can be the person you always wanted and needed. I can't explain why I was so blind for so long, or why it took recent events for me to finally see. I can't make you know things will be OK, I can only do my best, be that better person and hope you will want me with all your heart as I want you.

I have to believe God is giving me one more chance, I have to believe I can make something of it. You have a right to be bitter, I hope we can change that together. Remember you are free to choose, and that I can't make you do anything, I can only be the best I can, and hope.

I am slow, but I believe I can learn. I hope I get a chance to show that I can."

High, I know you have said similar things before, but it helps to continue to affirm your feelings in a safe way. Stay away from statemements that set her off. Make it about you and your feelings, not about things she has done or failed to do.

Don't try and teach her until she is ready to learn, and that may still be a ways away.

I think there are positive things to be glad about. Remember, run your plan and meet needs daily no matter what she says. Be steady, be kind. Care for, and protect her even when she won't do it for you. Be emotionally safe for her, a haven against the world. Things will come in time.

SS

<small>[ May 28, 2003, 01:39 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>