</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do need discuss it to get past it. I think you understand that, but I don't think she does. Perhaps it can come out in counseling.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I do understand that, it's just that I've yet to find a good way to bring up the subject without it turning into a big deal. Mentioning it in general is OK, but if I ask specifics, mainly about what may or may not be going on currently, I usually wind up with the short end of that conversation, with her ending with "This is why I just need to leave so I can think without all of this....". That hasn't happened in a good while, but it has more than once.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...............she asked if I thought that the reason she has wanted so much to leave me of late (late being the last year or so) is because she had an A. (my answer was no BTW)

I think that has a lot to do with it. ( I think you have read SAA?) It's a way to justify the A. You know, "things must have been terrible or I couldn't have had an A, in fact they must have been so bad that my only solution is leaving him. "
I know there were other factors, but I believe that was one of the factors in her desire to leave.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I have read SAA and she has read at least 3/4 of it, if not all of it. And I do know that it has a heck of a lot more to do with her feelings that she will let on. Sometimes I beleive that it has more to do that even she knows.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dr Harley has reported that some marriages heal without remorse on the part of the WS, but it seems to be much easier if they have guilt, and work on their problems like you are working on yours.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's the thing. When it first came out (she told me on her own) she was greatly remorseful. It was unbelievable. She was trying to "make it up to me" (with no urging from me...I did not guilt her at all) and was working extremely hard to show me she was sorry.
Now it just seems that it's not that big a deal any more. Not that she says that, but I get the idea from her actions and words.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still have no idea if anything is going on between them now. Since she told me several weeks ago that she had cut off contact, I've heard nothing else about it. I still have the feeling that I can't really ask her about it since she didn't cut off contact for me, but for herself. I don't know if I'm wrong in that area or not. I've had no reason to suspect that anything is still going on, but the way things are, I'm also not getting any guarantees that they aren't either, so I'm kind of lost.

That's normal. Without a NC agreement, it takes much longer for recovery - for both of you. It may be hard to discuss it now, or at all, knowing how you got her to stay.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, this part has changed as of today. I took her cell phone with me to church (she's staying home most of the time now) and I was flipping through the call log as I normally do when I have her phone (I don't carry one, so hers is the only one we have). I ran across a number that jumped out at me. It was just familiar somehow. I'm always on the lookout for certain area codes since OM works in a different local area code than we all live. I found one and called it and it turned out that it was a # for the company he works for. Granted, for some reason, instead of getting his voice mail, I got a recording saying it was a non-working # for that company....not sure what the deal is there.
Anyway, it seems that he called her from work on her cell a week ago Friday while she was at work. I haven't brought it up yet (I found it this morning, it's now about 8:00pm), but she knows something is bothering me. I've got to saying something about it or it'll eat me up inside. Anyway, that's something I'll have to figure out.

So as far as how long they've been back in contact, I don't know. Of course, I'm jumping to conclusions...that could have been the first call in weeks and she could have told him to take a flying leap, but I think she would have told me that had it been that type of thing.
I have noticed the last week or so that she's been much more vocal about her "problems" with me. It happened last time that she got back in touch with him after a long (long....3 or 4 weeks, if that's long) period of NC. Things had been going great in my eyes....we were closer, spending tons of time together and enjoying every minute...then out of the blue, she starts acting different. More standoffish and trying to keep her distance. Come to find out a couple of weeks later, that she had called him and things were rolling again.
She's not pushing me away this time, just being more vocal about her problems with me and us, but it does remind me of the last time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember the four rules of a successful marriage.
Four rules
Care. protection, honesty, and time.
I don't know, but the feel I get is that you need to work on honesty and time. It will take much longer than a few months, but I'll cover that below. Lets see, you have been spending more time with her, but is it 15 hours a week? If so, continue, if not, take another look. I think trips to the mountains are very good.

You need to learn how to be honest about your feelings, or you may reconcile under a set of rules that make it impossible for you to be happy in the "new" marriage. It has to be a two way thing. Right now, you make it safe for her to talk, but it's not safe for you to talk. That needs to be addressed. I don't know if I can help much there, but MC may be able to help, and I know the Harleys could.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really think we've got the time rule nailed. There might be a week here and there that are a couple of hours short of 15, but then there are times like this week when it was probably more like 25 or 30. Not that you can "make up", but overall, I think that's covered.

You're right on about me being able to be honest about my feelings. She doesn't actually do anything to stop me from being honest, it's just the overall feeling I get of not being free to express myself because she's still "thinking" about things.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Think about this, she hasn't left yet. That may be all you get for a while, but I think hundreds of people on MB would be glad for the chance you have got. Count your blessings.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very true. Thanks for that reminder.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did that help?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, it did. Also gives me a whole lot of thinking to do (as if I needed more of that:)

Update from last night.....

I finally mentioned the phone # to my wife last night. She just nodded her head to confirm that it was true. Then that launched into about 20 minutes of why we're so uncompatible. I just tried to keep quiet and not interrupt her and let her get it out.
It's so hard to sit there and hear so many reasons why you're not good enough for the person that you love with all your heart. It just seems that love isn't enough any more. All the temporal things seem much more important to her now than any feelings I have for her (or her for me).

One thing she said that really stuck with me was that she didn't marry me for who I was, she married me for who she thought I could become and her patience is gone. She's also seen that it was wrong for her to form a mold that she expected me to conform to after marriage and that it would be best if we just went our seperate ways so I wouldn't be expected to "be" a certain way, and that she could seek out someone that's more suited to her wants and desires.
Of course, she had to throw in that she "settled" when she married me and that next time around she would set the bar much higher.

I wish I had a recording of the conversation....the things she says kind of run together from time to time and I have trouble remembering exactly what was said.

There's so much more that would probably help to share here, but my mind is just muddled and I can't piece together everything.

Later in the evening when things had settled from the earler conversation (and it was a conversation...it didn't mutate into an argument thankfully) she did say that there was "something" that was keeping her with me. She also said that she told OM that when they talked that Friday before last.

From what I'm gathering, they're talking every week or two, just to kind of "keep up". I don't think that she sees the harm in that. I told her last night, that regardless of whether they're talking once a month or they're meeting up twice a day, it's just as damaging to us and our chances of survival. That may not have been the best thing to say, but she told me very pointedly to speak my mind.
She asked me to tell her how her behavior made me feel. She said that maybe knowing exactly how I felt would help her understand things better. I gave her some of my thoughts and at one point I used the "cake eater" example that's so prevalent here, and after that, she asked me why I didn't just take away some of her cake. She was pretty much suggesting that I Plan B her! She wanted to know why I just didn't leave her and let her see for her self how things would be. And that maybe that would cause her to understand what she really wanted.
That was really unexpected. I'm just not prepared yet to do that, and really don't know if I could follow through with it. Not that I would because she suggested it, but if the time came for it. I just don't know.

Re-read SAA.
It is hard after you have gone over it a few times to read it again clear through, because we think we know it. And, we do know most of it, but there are nuances that we don't get the first few times around. Please read again. I think you will get more help doing that than much else right now.

Remember that this is the normal corse of things. It's not right or proper but it's what happens. She is saying what is usually said, and doing what is usually done. It would help if she would commit to NC.

You can explain that you don't want to leave because you are still making up for your past sins, and you want a chance to do a good job of that - if you think it would help her understand your feelings.

If she understands the addiction of A's, use smoking or alcohol as an example. Every time a smoker takes another puff, it resets and they go through withdrawl all over again. If they made 4 months, it is back to day one in an instant. This is not your words, but the words of experts that study marriage, and affairs.

It's hard to navagite through the mine field of withdrawl. YOU need to know that you can only do your best, and you need to do that and be happy. I believe you need to show a confident side. The things she is saying about moving up, and she could have done better are standard for people in an A. I don't think it is a reflection on you so much as it is on her. You are not perfect? Welcome to planet earth. Join the human race.

I expect you will address the things you can do to improve. That should be part of your plan no matter what she does. IF you know you need work, then do the work. You don't need to do it today, or this week, but over the next 10 years? There has to be a starting point, steps in the middle, and an end that you can measure. You don't need to tell her about it, she will know if you begin improvements.

I remember reading a sign once that said " The world makes way for the man that knows where he is going." You need to know where you are going even if your W won't come with you. Then you need to go there. Women are attracted to men that have direction and purpose and show it by how they live from day to day. If you have to plan some small successes to help you have that aura, then do it right away.

I think trips to the mountains help a lot, and I have said that, but repeat for emphasis. I am glad you are doing well with spending time with her. Now improve the quality of that time. Improve her image of you during that time. I had to do this part, and it is helping me AND our relationship. I do better all around in personal and private life.
Block out an hour or two a week just to think about her, things she likes, ways to please her. Watch her shows on TV, play her music. Go to her Restaurant.
Take her to plays, art shows, quilt exibits or things she likes. Enjoy it with her.
I learned a very wise lesson from a good friend of mine. He was going shopping with his W one day and I epxressed that I was "sorry" he had to go. He said " You don't understand, I WANT to be with her no matter what she does." He is a construction worker with many hobbies of his own, but he had the right idea. Now, he doesn't smother her, but he is supportive.

It's hard to be strong and decisive and still read their moods and be sensitive to their needs. It takes practice. I am still learning, but things get better and better. Sometimes I order for her, ( when we go out to eat) using past history as a guide. Sometimes I ask her what she would like. A lot of it is by feel, and experiance. It is much different now that I care deeply about her feelings and try to please her as much as I can. She knows I care, she knows I try to please her, and she reacts.

You can only do the best you can do, and that will be enough, or it won't. Just resoulve to do your best and be content. You were born to win, and win you can. People who win are not any different than you and I, they just make up their mind that they WILL WIN. Then they act like it until they DO WIN. There are lots of days when mine is just an act, and I doubt, but I keep acting, and you don't know the differenc, and neither does my W. Other days, I know I am going to win, and it's easy to keep going. I believe in you, and you need to also, and show your W that you do.

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember that this is the normal corse of things. It's not right or proper but it's what happens. She is saying what is usually said, and doing what is usually done. It would help if she would commit to NC.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I figured out something yesterday. I was rolling our past conversations over in my head and comparing them to the one we had Sunday night, trying to find a link to the way she's thinking about things. I know things are really twisted around in her mind, but until I understand exactly how, I feel that I won't be able to make much progress.
Anyway, from what she's said, she seems to be lumping the entire recovery process into one big step or decision.

The way I see it, there are 2 really big steps that have to be made. Probably much more, but I'm being very general here....
I see that #1, she's got to get out of the affair and go through a certain amount of recovery. #2, she's got to decide about us, without the thoughts of OM and the A clouding her thought process. I feel that only then, after a certain amount of NC has passed will she be able to make an objective decision about staying with me.

But the way I'm reading her....she seems to be lumping both of these areas into one decision. I'll say something about ending the A once and for all and she'll say something like "yes, I know I should, but I feel like if I do that I'll be giving up everything I ever wanted". By saying that, she tells me that she's not referring to OM being able to give her everything she ever wanted and losing that opportunity, she means that by staying with me she'll give up the chance she feels she has now to get out and seek out an "alternate future" for herself (my words, not hers". Granted, maybe she's lying to me and her and OM have these grand plans to run off together and live happily ever after, but I've asked her that again and again and she tells me that they have no plans and if they had, she'd be long gone.

Anyway, it seems to me that she feels that if she gives up the A and ends it for good that by doing that she's also saying that she'll stay with me and we'll get on the road to recovery. All in one decision.
I just don't feel that it works that way. Yes, she has to decide to end the A. But that doesn't mean (to me) that she's "chosen" me. It just means that she's taken step one. And once she's taken that step and has taken it successfully, then, and only then will she be able to think about us in the way she needs to.
Then she's got to make up her mind on whether or not she wants to be with me.

But how do I get her to see that? Is that something she's just got to figure out? I feel that's why she's just spinning her wheels, never moving. Making a little progress, then blowing it all. She feels that it's all one make it or break it, grand poo-bah decision that has to be made. I'm not minimizing the fact that it's agonizing for her, but how do I make her see that ending the A is not the same as deciding to stay with me?

Or am I even on the right track?

<small>[ July 08, 2003, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: high_road ]</small>

I think you have something here.

You could explain it to her like you did to us. Made sense to me.

Remember that logic doesn't always work, if logic worked, she would not have had an A in the first place. Do what you can, but if it doesn't work, just try something else, don't feel like you failed. Remember, you work your plan daily and your success is how you work the plan, not how she reacts. ( this is in the short term.)

Don't get discouraged yet, it's way to soon.

I feel it is good that you can look at things, analize them, and go foreword. YOU are making progress. Does it feel like it?

SS

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You could explain it to her like you did to us. Made sense to me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I'll try that next time the opportunity arises. Tonight might be a good time. She has her counseling sessions on Tuesdays, and alot of times she wants to run things by me that she was told. If the conversation goes that way, I'll try to explain it to her.
I guess I wanted to see if it made sense to anyone else but me. Thanks for confirming that for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Remember that logic doesn't always work</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah...that might be an understatement! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Really, I have to say I'm thankful that my W hasn't been as illogical as many of the stories I read here. I see case after case where wives run off with their OM and purposely do as much harm and hurt to their family as a human could possibly do.
Yeah, I'm hurt, but it could be much worse. My W is not completely logical, but there have been very few times that she's been outright spiteful.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't get discouraged yet, it's way to soon.

I feel it is good that you can look at things, analize them, and go foreword. YOU are making progress. Does it feel like it?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do get discouraged, but it's temporary. I'm not discouraged overall. I know there's a long time to go.

Does it feel like there is progress? Depends on what day you ask <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Most days I do feel like it, and any day that I'll stop and look back at how things were and how they are now, I will always feel like progress has been made.
My W even tells me that she feels closer and closer. Closer to what I'm not sure....JK.
Anyway, I do know that things are creeping forward.

Thanks for the input.

Here's something I've been wondering for a little while now.

I know that overall, it's probably best for me to keep my chin up and my attitude positive whenever I'm around my W. Whether or not I really feel it inside, I need to show a confident air when she's around.

But is this the case all the time? I take now for instance....I know for a fact that she's back in contact with OM. Am I supposed to just act like I'm OK? I know that I shouldn't give her the idea that I'm OK with her behavior, so I'm not asking that, but it seems to me that by putting on an "OK" front, that she'll read that as me being OK with what she's doing.

I'm really torn on this. The man in me tells me to just be strong and not let the hurt that her actions cause me to show in the least. To tell her that I'm fine (when she asks) and show her that I'm doing OK with things.
Then there's the broken part of me that thinks I should let my brokeness show so she can see how it's affecting me.

What's the best thing to do? Do I put on the OK air but be sure that she knows that I am not OK with what she's doing?

What's the best thing to do? Do I put on the OK air but be sure that she knows that I am not OK with what she's doing?

Yes, sort of.

You need to be honest with her about your feelings, but there are good ways, and bad ways to do it.

Remember that you need to have a plan and work that plan daily. That includes figuring out where you want your life to go, and going there. You can go there with your W, or without her.
Here's a good link to what I am talking about.
Blind Sided's discourse on having direction in your life.
Go down to blind sided's post and read that. If it doesn't mean much after you read it, read it again slower, and no, I'm not kidding.

So, you need to have direction, and you need to show that you are strong, but you also need to communicate that because you love her, because you are married to her and care about your marriage and know that continued contact will destroy your marriage it hurts you deeply, but you need to communicate that in a kind, strong manner.

Sometimes it is good to just break down and cry in front of her, but only if you don't usually do that. It's the contrast that makes the difference. The BIG difference between they way you usually do things, and the way you just did it can serve to get her attention.

I would tend to do it like this, but you have to do it your own way.
"W, I know you continue to be in contact with OM, and it hurts me. When I first found out what was going on, I began to study marriages, why they succeed and why they fail. I know that if you continue to contact him, our marriage probably will not survive. I wish you would give us a chance, I hope you will.
I can't tell you what to do, I can only ask and hope you care enough to try. It does hurt me a great deal, but it's your choice. I hope you will at least be honest with me about what you are doing. I really wish you would give us a good chance by having no contact with him for at least a year..............."

You could go on and on. You need to find you before you can help her, and I believe you ARE doing it, but that doesn't come all at once either.

Remember that it WILL take time. IT will. I hope you can also communicate to her that you are trying because you love her, and want to be with her, not because you have to. There is a difference.

SS

I think I got a good bit of this through to her last night.

We went out to a movie and to eat last night and had a good chance to talk about some things over dinner.

Near the beginning of the conversation (she had asked me how I was doing) she mentioned again that she knew that the "right" and most logical thing for her to do would be to stay with me and give things a true chance to work out. Since we're together and getting along so well and as far as our relationship goes, things are doing quite good, she knows it would also be the easiest path to take.
I used that to try to get her to see a few things for herself. I asked her to explain what she thought that would involve. She was really general in saying that we needed to really be serious about making things work between us.
I kept coaxing her to tell me what all that would involve. I was trying to get her to see that NC was a must for this to happen.
She finally hit pretty close to it by saying that she knew that she was going to have to start being more accountable for her time to me so that I could begin to trust her again and to show me that things were over between her and OM.

That kind of got me to a point where I felt I could jump off into what I mentioned here the other day. I told her that I thought she had been lumping every step of the matter into one big choice. That she seems to feel that everything has to be decided at one time, and that truly wasn't the case.
I said that as far as her not being sure she wants to be with me.....I can handle that knowledge. I can handle knowing that she's unsure about she and I. I can handle the choice between her being with me and her not being with me. What I can't handle and what I can't accept is knowing that I'm sharing her. I can't handle the knowlege that she may be choosing between me and another man.
I wanted to get to the point where she could make the choice between me or not without OM in the picture. And that meant committing to NC and sticking to that for X amount of time. Kind of clearing her mind of that influence so she could better consider the choices she has.
Yes, during that time I would want her to be accountable to me, but not just so I could feel better about things, but for her good as well. She's tried time and again to end things on her own and hasn't had the best of luck doing it by herself.

I think some of that finally got through to her. That's probably the most in depth, to the point talk we've had in a couple of months at least. We've hit on it from time to time, but we really seemed to touch on some issues last night. And it seemed to be done in the right way. Neither of us got frustrated with the other or mad. She cried a little when I was stressing NC.....I guess the thought of giving OM up is....??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

So anyway, nothing was set or decided, but she does seem to think that the best thing for us to do is to cut loose and really give "us" a go.

I do wonder some things though. I believe that the time is coming pretty soon that she's going to come to me and say that she's ready. I don't know when, but I feel that it's coming. I just want to be ready and know what I should do when that time comes. I want to have a plan prepared to make things happen.

My first issue is OM. When she first told me of the A, we went through the steps listed in SAA and she sent a NC email to him. Of course, that lasted about 3 weeks. Maybe because she just wansn't ready and did it out of guilt or because she was sorry for what she had done? Anyway, it wasn't enough to make it last.
Now.....I think she's miserable enough to do things right. That sounds horrible, but I know how crappy feelings can motivate you to do something. She's been in such a funk lately, I think she would put 150% into whatever she decided to do.
Anyway, how to let OM know of this and know that it's serious? The last NC letter from my W didn't stick (and I think she was the one that broke NC, not him) so if she did the same thing, how's that going to hold water with him? And I don't really want her calling him up and saying a tearful goodbye.
Should I tell him? Would that be stupid? How else could we handle that in a way that makes it clear to stay the he** away?
I'd appreciate any suggestions there.

Also, I know that when she decides to do that, I'm going to have to put some definite boundaries into place. I don't want to smother her, but I do want it to be clear exactly what I expect. I know of alot of things I'd want and expect, but I want to make sure I don't miss anything important. I know I've got to get across the things that will assure me...those will vary from person to person, but I know that there will be some concrete things that I'll need to get across.
I'd love some suggstions. I've just got so much going on aside from our R problems that I don't trust myself not to forget something important. I know if a door is left open inadvertantly that it could cause her to slip and we'd have to start all over again.

I just want to be prepared so that when the time comes I can hit the ground running and show her that I've got things thought through and am serious about us and our future.

Well, a new chance seems to be poking it's head up.

After Thursday night, we kept the discussion of things ongoing. Saturday night we sat at home and talked about the future and what might or might not be. Honestly it wasn't the best time for me to talk because I was just emotionally worn out and drained, but it seems to have worked out alright.

After all was said and done, she said that she did feel that she needed to give us and our marriage a real chance to work out. I got the feeling she's got some of the wrong motives in mind because one way she's thinking about it is that there's something keeping her from leaving me right now. That if she were to go, she wouldn't be able to live with herself without the knowledge that we had done everthing possible to make things work. She wants to give us a real shot at working out so that if it doesn't work out, she can leave knowing that she did "everything she could" to make it work.
I don't agree with that rationalization, but I will take her full effort any way it will come.

I don't think that's the only reason she's doing it. I do feel (from what she's said) that she is very curious as to how we can be together with both of us working as hard as we can together. That's the part of her reasoning that I'm trying to hinge on.

Anyway, she said that Saturday, and throughout the day yesterday we discussed it, and the talk eventually turned to OM and her lingering feelings for him. Granted, that's about the hardest thing in the world for me to talk about, and it's probably the hardest thing for her to talk about with me, but we got through some of it.
I think one reason she failed in her past attempts to end things with him is just that. She had no one to share her struggles with. She felt a certain way and kept those feeling inside and tried to deal with them herself. When she was unable to deal with them, she took it to the only other person she felt she could talk to about it.....OM.
I'm trying to get across to her that as hard as it is, I am the one she needs to come to when she struggles. No, it's not something that I'm entirely comfortable talking about, but I'd rather talk about it than have to live with it like I have for all these months.

Anyway, last night I almost thought she was going to go back on what she said. At one point in our conversation, I stressed that contact had to end between them if we were ever going to have a chance. She actually looked kind of shocked when I said that, even though she knew it before I said it (because I've said it over and over). She said that she didn't know if she was ready to give it up because of what she might be "missing out on".
It's so hard not to just scream about how it would never work out between them and yada yada yada. I know that would be counterproductive, but daggum. Hearing that time and time again........

Anyway, I think she's made a decision that it's what she needs to do. She's constantly wanting to know if I'm going to be there for her and if I'll be strong for her when she needs me. Before she left for work this morning, she asked me to pray for her that she would have the strength to fight her feelings.

That's the short story of the weekend. Now, what can I do to help her now? Being there for her and encouraging her is a given, but what else can a BS do to help a WS through withdrawal?
Also, like I asked before, what's the best way to deal with OM now? I mean, a NC letter has already been done and gone back on. How do you deal with that?

I can see a lot of positive things going on, but you seem to still be afraid sometimes -

Afraid you will make a big mistake.
Worried that you won't know what to do.

How about this - you can look back and see that you are doing well. You are, it's now a fact, and I don't think you can disupte it. Could you do better? Perhaps, if you were perfect. But, you are not, I am not, your W is not. We take what we can get, and your progress is the envy of many here.

I want this to translate into increrased confidence. You are a mortal, fallible person doing a good job in a difficult situation. I want you to dwell on the good job part of this, that's what you need to think about. You really are doing a good job. As good as can be expected. Once upon a time you were doing a terrible job, but that is no longer true.

Help on boundries? I used to know where a thread was - not exactly on that, but maybe this will help.
Rules for successful recovery
That's not exactly what I remembered, so maybe someone else will come along and help.

Lets see, you asked about what you could do......
Living with Relationship Disaster

That's not what you had in mind, but I think there are a lot of good suggestions that would make you look much better in her eyes.

Last, the rule of time. Keep her busy doing stuff that SHE LIKES. Don't overload her, some nights she may just want to read a book, but you can be in the room, rub her back, sing to her, play her music. Read your own book. Walk with her, hold her hand. Go to movies that she wants to go to, my W took me to "Finding Nemo" last week, G rated, animated. We loved it.
Make her laugh, and laugh with her. Talk to her.

One of the reasons I build up is that you need to know the truth, another is that you need encouragement. You need to know you can do this, and you can, so get on with it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

SS

<small>[ July 14, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Afraid you will make a big mistake.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe not as much as you think....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Worried that you won't know what to do</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. Absolutely. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I guess I'm afraid that by not knowing what to do, I'll make a big mistake....well, maybe not big, but enough to create a setback.

I'll read the info you linked to ASAP.

I know I've learned a ton, and nobody is going to be able to tell me what to do in all situations. I'm not really looking for that. There are so many thing daily that I feel that I have to handle on the fly.....there's just certain things that I go back and forth and back and forth on.
One of the biggest being how to let OM know that it's over and to butt out. Most of me wants to handle it myself, but I know he has no respect or thought for me, so why would he listen? What keeps him from turning the heat up just for spite?
Then again, I don't want my wife contacting him for anything. Even to dump him.

That's what bugs me the most. That's the part of things that concerns me the most. If my wife is honest with me about her feelings (good or bad) and allows me to be involved and help her, I feel very good about our chances...mainly her chances of getting rid of his hold on her.
But I have NO control over him. How to minimize the chances that we'll go most of the distance and have him crash the party?

Maybe I'm thinking too far down the road or about things I should simply leave to God.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Last, the rule of time. Keep her busy doing stuff that SHE LIKES.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Great suggestion. I'll be sure to utilize that as much as possible.

Maybe it would help to ask your wife how to insure NC. She could proabably help.

I am starting to see the hard side of you. I think that's good. Mental toughness is an asset right now. Here's another good thread for you to read and get some ideas from. I thought it a good help for me anyway - I read the whole thing.

Differences in Men and Women in relationships.

Think about something else. I don't know about your W, but mine likes to cook. She will (becasue she cares about me) sometimes sit down and pour over the cookbooks till she finds something she thinks I will like. She plans it, buys the stuff, and experments. It sometimes takes her 2 or 3 hours to do it all. We ( me) used to spend all of 5 minutes thinking about taking her on a date, and sometimes that was too hard. Don't be afraid to spend a couple of hours thinking of, planning, and purchasing tickets, or whatever. Put some good thought into pleasing her. With the trips you have been doing, I suspect you have this part figured out, but it doesn't hurt to bring it up. They know we care about them when we take care of them.

SS

<small>[ July 14, 2003, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

Funny you should mention that thread. I ran across it last week and read most, if not all of it. It had all the elements of a good movie in it.

I'll browse through it again and catch up with the new stuff.

You could probably still benifit from calling the Harleys for counseling. Some days I sound good, but I am just here learning like - like everyone else.

It does sound like you have a very good chance, and like you understand things pretty well.

I may even have to start teasing you more.

SS

I've tossed around calling Harley, but I don't have peace about it. My pastor is helping me track down a good local counselor, so I want to see where that goes first.

I'm doing pretty good actually. If you've read any of my other threads, you'll know that there have been some bumps, and I do expect them....have all along, it's just that I don't just want to know they'll happen, I want to understand why they happen and what they mean. I want to be able to look at something that's just happened and think....."ohhhhh....THAT'S why she's this way.....", instead of figuring it out 2 days later. I know it comes with time and I'm figuring it out as I go.

Hey, I can take the teasing. Bring it on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Things have been good since the blow up on Sunday night. We've started making a habit of getting in bed a little earlier than normal and talking. Last night we probably talked for 2 hours before going to sleep. It's really been great, and it makes her think twice about the things she's been saying she feels over the last several months. I can tell it's giving her pause.

I think I always built "talking" up as some big deal that it's really not. I have just never been in the habit of sharing with anyone and I would bottle it up for so long, that when we would have a good conversation (before the A), it was a huge deal because we had two months of catching up to do.
I refuse to go more than a couple of days now without a good talk, and my W is totally amazed with me.
Up until fairly recently, when I would initiate conversation or give her compliments or do something "unlike" me, it would more often than not spur her to say something like "I can't believe you're like this now".....closely followed by an angry "why are you doing it now when it's too late???".
Now it's more like "I'm amazed at how much you've changed. It's like you're not the same person any more". Only there's no angry follow up. It's said in a happy, content kind of way.

Anyhow, that's been the last several days. It's been great and I can see the space between us growing smaller and smaller.
I know there's a butt-load of work left to do, and some setbacks will occur along the way, but I'm happy with the progress that's happening.

I did read your other thread, and I was even going to comment - though the others were better with the question you asked than I would have been.

W is out of town, I am MR Mom, even though I only have 4 kids left at home, it takes time to do things she normally does.

Perhaps tomorrow?

Anyway, just wanted you to know I do care.

Ss

Only 4 kids left at home? How many have you gotten rid of? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Hello again,
It looks like you are happier about the way things are going.
Lets see where you are..

I've tossed around calling Harley, but I don't have peace about it. My pastor is helping me track down a good local counselor, so I want to see where that goes first.
I hope it works. Let us know what you think about it, and how your W likes it.

I'm doing pretty good actually. If you've read any of my other threads, you'll know that there have been some bumps, and I do expect them....have all along, it's just that I don't just want to know they'll happen, I want to understand why they happen and what they mean. I want to be able to look at something that's just happened and think....."ohhhhh....THAT'S why she's this way.....", instead of figuring it out 2 days later. I know it comes with time and I'm figuring it out as I go.

I still can't figure my W out.
I know that sounds bad, but I talk to her and she tells me what she wants, and I do it. I don't always understand why, but I can follow directions.
I suppose I shouldn't make blanket statements - I do understand some things better, and I can see how to make her happy now, when before it was a mystery. It's just that she sees things so differently than I do. The big thing is communication. Before I would just do it my way. Now we talk about it until we agree, and then we are both happy. THAT does make a difference.

Hey, I can take the teasing. Bring it on.
Dang, it's too late for me to think of a good one, I'll have to try later. It would hurt to try and do it now.

Things have been good since the blow up on Sunday night. We've started making a habit of getting in bed a little earlier than normal and talking. Last night we probably talked for 2 hours before going to sleep. It's really been great, and it makes her think twice about the things she's been saying she feels over the last several months. I can tell it's giving her pause. \

That's a big one, keep it up. You will go far with talks like that.

I think I always built "talking" up as some big deal that it's really not. I have just never been in the habit of sharing with anyone and I would bottle it up for so long, that when we would have a good conversation (before the A), it was a huge deal because we had two months of catching up to do.

You are like me, you can be trained.

I refuse to go more than a couple of days now without a good talk, and my W is totally amazed with me.
There may be some gals on MB that will want you to give lessons to their H's. Maybe you ought to list your phone number. In fact, maybe you ought to get an 800 number. Check around, rates are low.

Up until fairly recently, when I would initiate conversation or give her compliments or do something "unlike" me, it would more often than not spur her to say something like "I can't believe you're like this now".....closely followed by an angry "why are you doing it now when it's too late???".
Now it's more like "I'm amazed at how much you've changed. It's like you're not the same person any more". Only there's no angry follow up. It's said in a happy, content kind of way.

Once my W told me I no longer needed to bring her flowers. I asked her if she liked them. She said " what women wouldn't like to be treated like this." I think your W thinks that. Is it easy enough that you can make it way of life? If you are like me, it actually feels good to do it, kind of fun. Same with you??

Anyhow, that's been the last several days. It's been great and I can see the space between us growing smaller and smaller.
I know there's a butt-load of work left to do, and some setbacks will occur along the way, but I'm happy with the progress that's happening.

If you are happy, then I am too. To be honest, I am thrilled. Setbacks WILL come, it's only a matter of when. YOU need to be able to remember what you are learning, and not blow when it happens. I predict you will remember, grin, and then do it right.
We'll see.

Feels good, doesn't it.

SS

PS, I have three trips out of town between now and the 18th of August. If I don't show up, it means I have time constraints, not that I don't care. Actually, I don't think you need much help anyway, I think that these days you just come here to bragg. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just kidding, Just kidding. Maybe I can do it this late. If that's not good enough, I'll try again tomorrow. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still can't figure my W out.
I know that sounds bad, but I talk to her and she tells me what she wants, and I do it. I don't always understand why, but I can follow directions.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, I don't really ever expect to really figure my wife out, but that's OK with me. As long as I can learn a little here and there along the way (and never forget how to follow directions <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) I'll be happy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dang, it's too late for me to think of a good one, I'll have to try later.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Too late for you? Hmmmmmm.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are like me, you can be trained.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Woof! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There may be some gals on MB that will want you to give lessons to their H's. Maybe you ought to list your phone number. In fact, maybe you ought to get an 800 number. Check around, rates are low. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry, I don't give lessons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it easy enough that you can make it way of life? If you are like me, it actually feels good to do it, kind of fun. Same with you??</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, actually it is. I wouldn't call it easy, but it is becoming habit. And I do love the return it gets me....just in the way she looks at me and allows me to take care of her. I went so many months with her refusing to let me do for her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">PS, I have three trips out of town between now and the 18th of August. If I don't show up, it means I have time constraints, not that I don't care. Actually, I don't think you need much help anyway, I think that these days you just come here to bragg.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HA!

No, I know you weren't serious, but I don't want to start thinking that I don't need help/encouragement any more. I know that a lot of the real tests are yet to come and that we have a long road ahead of us. But I am encouraged by the recent happenings and I'm really feeling that we will get the chance to move into recovery and beyond.

I was thrilled by something that she told me this morning.....
She goes for a walk every morning before work. I try to go with her whenever possible, but sometimes it's just not possible and this morning she went by herself. She sometimes prefers to go on her own because she says it gives her a chance to talk out loud to God.
Anyhow, when she got in from her walk today, she looked kind of preoccupied. I asked her if anything was wrong and she said that she felt that God had shown her some things while she was out. That she needs to learn to be happy and content with what she has been given and not always try to change things up so much (something that's always been a problem with us).
She didn't go into much detail....said she needed to figure it out for herself before she tried to explain it ot me. But it's good to know that she's hearing from God again.