back to the subject of pathological liars.

I once heard, on public radio, a bit about PLs. not even the best of the best in the field ferreting out the truth from these people can always get to the real truth. It is very difficult. PLs, according to this bit, do not often know reality from the fantasy world they have created themselves. Inorder to be found out, a PL needs to be presented with cold hard facts, and/or they must have the feeling that they have something to lose if they face the truth. People often pass lie detector tests by either focusing on a subject totally unrelated or by having a deep seated feeling that they have nothing to lose by lying.

I wonder if not realizing and/or accepting that they have something to lose if they lie is a factor.

I also wonder if we aren't sometimes set up by our upbringings to become liars. Say, for instance, if one were a child in a situation where the parent were in the public eye and the family was expected to be "perfect". In the case of my H, his father has a doctorets in Theology and a once very active pastor. My H has stated before that he was expected to be a perfect child. Froms clues and bits and pieces I have gotten listening to various members of his family, there were also not many boundries established in the household. Each of his siblings went through a discover-me phase, each rebelious. My H was not exactly the model kid as a teen. There was an all out on my H's part to present his parents and the church community the perfect son, while working hard on getting into as much trouble as he dared. Nothing horiible, just not "perfect" kid stuff. He thinks he is lucky, I believe the contrary, he was never caught or found out. He later joined the service and had a great career.

So........

At what point did my H begin to believe that despite all he was doing, that he was perfect. He has states that he has lived a charmed life. He has stated that he never realized there were so many bad /mean people out there. When did he crawl into his rosy colored bubble himself?

LovingBoundaries (we can't abbreviate that to LB, now, can we? ;-) makes a VERY, VERY important point; first and foremost we must be honest with ourselves! and this is perhaps one ofthe MOST difficult things to do. We often have these "internal" discussions with ourselves where the ego will say "you're right! tell him to bugger off!!" and our "real" self says, "no, no, poor fellow...he's having a hard time, let's give him a break", or things to that effect. The thing is, most of the time we're not even conscious that we do this! And very often we just let the "ego" self act. Once we begin to be honest, and we begin with ourselves, we can observe the internal interactions, and as we do, we're more and more aware of where one starts and the other one ends, and we can make better, less emotional decisions. And the best part is we can actually laugh at ourselves when we become aware. I do it all the time! I'll think things like "geez! where did you dig up that stupid idea! What an evil little squirm...thinking thigs like that!" and I'll laugh out loud! (I bet THAT looks weird going down the freeway, huh? LOL!!!)

2ndfiddle; good points; but perhaps even more important than honesty about "our whereabouts" and other "doing" things, we must be honest about our feelings and thoughts. When we are, it tends to bring out the "real" us more and more...and believe me, you have NO idea the tranquility that lives in you when you no longer have to "pretend". And this is coming from someone who DID a lot of pretending! (Still do. But I'm working on it!)
Even in my case, with our divorce being final tomorrow my W and I have almost eliminated ALL conflict arising from this. My being honest always about what I think, feel and believe, even though she's not necessarily doing it, has eliminated conflict and competition. Heck, we're on better terms now than we were for many years!

wflower; I think we encourage honesty ONLY by being honest ourselves first, and by not demanding honesty. I'm pretty sure that as my W has seen this from me, and seen that my life is working better and is pretty much anger-free, and much, much happier and "light", even she's starting to think about it...

Kily; exceptional expansion on the subject. The divine in me bows to the divine in you! (That's a good thing! lol!!!)

I guess I'll add that this is a very personal, transcendental thing. Either we get it, or we don't. Something has to happen in each of our lives for us to realize the truth of this. I don't believe any amount of preaching, much less demanding or forcing will do it. We all have our path, and somewhere along the path we discover certain things that change us, improve us forever. But we are each responsible only for our own path and can barely have an effect on another's path. Except perhaps by example. A wise man said that the best thing we can do for those we love is to show them our own life working well...

<small>[ June 19, 2003, 12:09 PM: Message edited by: Spacecase ]</small>

its amazing how much pain/confusion i see on my H's face. he loves his rosy-bubble so much. it must be very hard to imagine life without it. as he teases and laughs at other people's "misgivings" (mostly mine, he teases me about being "perfect", which I have never and never will claim being), he cannot see the humor and humanness in his own.

the ONLY perfect being out there is God. the good Lord made us human, he loves us for our humanness. Unconditionally.

In the congressional questionning of Ray Bulger, 2long, how would you describe his answers re. his fugitive brother? Empirically anything? Is it the truth or is it lying? Is he being honest, how can you describe this?

so, i guess this brings us to the issue of CONSCIENCE
did i spell that right?
where does this come into play

WF:

Well, not knowing who this is, my answer might not be much help:

Remember, it is possible 2 be honest but not truthful. Not easy, particularly in a committed relationship, but possible nonetheless. It's probably easier for a criminal 2 be honest without being truthful.

But this thread isn't about truth or lies. It's about honesty. Different animals.

-2long

Gosh, Honesty.

I honestly do not understand how one could be honest without being truthful. Is it a matter of perspective? Does this have to do with the strange, often not realized, may-not-be-a-fact, reality is all a matter of perspective? Personal perspective affects personal truths.

if reality is a matter of perspective, then whether or not a person is being honest with another person depends on whose reality they are being honest about. Whose "truths" are they basing the honesty on? I guess then if gets back to whehter or not the two people know one another well enough to know the "truths" and whether or not they are being honest about them.

Honesty describes a person who is inclined to tell the factual truths that they are aware of. Honest is an adjective. Truth is a noun, truthful is an adjective. Dishonest is an adjective, and a lie is a noun.

So whatever you want to talk about, whether it be the grammar of the words and specifics to a particular innocense or guilt. A lie is a lie and people who are described as honest beings, tend to be people who know what a lie is. Unless they are sociopathic, and feel that they are doing no wrong. Pathological liars, can not help themselves from lying. They need outside professional help. So a sociopathic human may feel that they are honest, but can be proved dishonest by the wrongs or crimes that they have committed. And what they call the truth may be proved to be a lie.

Still a wrong is a wrong, an affair while married is against the rules, and desribed as dishonest. And when the ws says they did not do it but they did do it, he/she is dishonest about it and a liar about it, and he is not telling the truth. Which is indeed described as dishonest.

SC,

Just wanted to let you know I've been following your saga for quite some time now, and my thoughts are with you today, as I believe your D is final or at least soon to be final. Mine's just a few months away as well, and I can only hope that I can reach a point of calm and civility by then as well as you have.

From your recent posts, you seem to be doing very well and I'm glad you have reached a point of peace within yourself as well as with your STBx. Just wanted to send you my best and let you know I'm happy that you've found that peace.

ALS

so, Honestly... I need more coffee.

Yes, adultery is a SIN, no ifs ands or buts. No "matter of perspective" about it.

In regards to being honest about one's feelings, I am still trying to get closer to the being honest without being truthful thing.

I do know that honesty within any given relationship is a matter of trust. Trusting ones self and trusting the other person involved.

I am trying to figure out my H's perspective, not to change him, but to better understand him, better understand me, and therefore better understand our relationship and better understand how I may have enabled him and how not to enable him any longer. CHANGE ME. I will never change my H, this I know and can accept. Honestly.

So, how to help honesty in a given relationship grow? Mostly honesty about vunerablity and feeling safe. Building the HONESTY to develope trust.

This topic is honestly amazingly taking on different avenues. If your husband will tell you lies, blatant or otherwise, in my book a lie is a lie. And it is dishonest. My top need it is to have honest truthful communication with my spouse. I do not want any lies or partial truths clogging up our lives.

If my spouse does something that he does not want me to know about because of shame or because he thinks that it would somehow be offensive to me, by God I want to know about it.

The worst case is if I find out by anyone else or by any other obvious reason in default. E-mails or letters or other people...

Honesty in a relationship, keeps the lines open, the blood flowing and it is alive with no feeling of being closed in or out.

A good way to apply the rule is this; Don't say or do anything that you can not repeat in front of your spouse.

WFLOWER,
Don't say or do anything that you can not repeat in front of your spouse.[/QB]

hear hear!!!!
My feelings exactly! Not only is it the right thing to do but it keeps me out of trouble.
I vow to continue to be honest in my marital relationship, regardless of how painful it may be for me. Gotta keep my sanity strong, ya know.

Hey, a great big hug to you. I am feeling a need today to thank all who have shed some light, ironed out enigmas, added new perspective, given me hope, given me strength etc.
Thanx.

Just a quick but painful lesson I learned for you all: Honesty is something you can't delay, tell all immediately or it becomes a lie by omission.

Jen

Jen,
very good point, and yes, painful. Thank you.

SC said:
"LovingBoundaries (we can't abbreviate that to LB, now, can we? ;-) "

Well, uh, umm, this is an honesty thread right? The answer is sometimes yes (too often still) and sometimes no (2long suggested $LB--I like that one!)

My name change is a result of HONESTY--brutal honesty with myself about myself, where I wanted to go, and what were the limits of what I *could* do vs what I *was willing* to do. I could have used this thread a little sooner Space! j/k <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

kily--your post was terrific! I'm printing it out. Thanks!

2long's difference between secret and private continues to be helpful even though I've read it a few times before. Hey 2long--maybe post it on a semi-regular basis so newcomers can see it?

Take care everyone

P.S. Prayers for my family--kids, me, h--are very welcome at this time. Also, I haven't seen Pepper around much and I think she can use some extra prayers too--you know she gives a lot here on the forums and doesn't seem to ask for much (or anything?), even when she is also in need.

2ndf:

"I am trying to figure out my H's perspective, not to change him, but to better understand him, better understand me, and therefore better understand our relationship and better understand how I may have enabled him and how not to enable him any longer. CHANGE ME. I will never change my H, this I know and can accept. Honestly."

Bingo. You are doing all the "right things". Look, people, As really mess up our lives, and our abilities 2 find truth and honesty, and separate what 'rights' we all have 2 privacy from 'needs' for secrecy 2 protect the deceitful R of an A. There may be an "absolute" set of rights and wrongs in M, but during the period between discovering one's S's A and true recovery we truly DO have 2 decide whether we want 2 be right or married. Very few of us get 2 have 2th at the same time.

2ndf, you're right. You can only change yourself and create the atmosphere between you and your H when you are 2gether that will hopefully give him the incentive 2 change himself. That's all I can do with my W.

I honestly don't understand the confusion between honesty and truthfulness. Facts is facts. Honesty is telling our S about how we feel.

So, in the extreme case of criminals lying and being honest - so far from the original subject of this thread that my head is spinning - yeah, it is conceivable that the criminal could lie (through omission of facts) and still honestly express his/her feelings.

But closer 2 the thread, and on the subject of this 4um, my W vehemently disagreed with me and our MC about the very existence of the concept of "lies of omission." Why? I *think* it's because she needed 2 protect her ongoing EA, which she rationalizes as a friendship. I even pointed that out 2 her several times, though not recently. Did it do me any good? Of course not. Am I right? Again, I *think* so, but she clearly did not (and I haven't asked her since, because there is so much else 2 focus on and be productive with). Someday, I *believe* that my W will agree that lies of omission are lies, but while she doesn't, it does me no good 2 argue with her about it. For her, the reality is that she can be honest with me about how she feels, while not telling me everything she says in convos 2 Rat Meat. I've been more successful when I've pointed out 2 her that I consider her continued contact as secretive, rather than private. But even that doesn't always result in net progress.

♥2long

Thank you 2LONG, it is reassuring to feel that I could be on the right rack, if not for the marriage, then for myself.
Yah, the lies by ommission thing is rather sticky if someone is still in denial.
You know, through all of this stuff, it is sometimes to remain HONEST with myself and not to tell my self lies by ommission.
<heavy sigh>

If you sense a void in information that you recieve from a spouse could be a void, or you could just be paranoid.

You need to be friends with your spouse. Unless your marriage was arranged, and even then you did start out as friends. If you have friendship with someone, how likely are you inclined to make up a story to them or to not tell them something they would want to know?

WF:

"If you have friendship with someone, how likely are you inclined to make up a story to them or to not tell them something they would want to know? "

If *I* have a friendship with someone, I don't believe I'm likely 2 keep secrets from them - but looking back, I probably have. If a WS has a friendship with their BS, but is having an A at the same time, they're in a bind. They rationalize that lies of omission aren't lies, honesty and truthfulness are the same thing, that secrecy is privacy, and that the lover is a "friend", or they're "entitled" because the BS ignored their cries for help (I know I did, or that's what she believes I did). None of it makes sense, but pointing that out isn't the first step 2 clearing the fog, either.

I'm gonna went now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
-2long

my brain hurts! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />