Jen-

My advice -

Don't say anything. He obviously has something to share so let him do the talking.

Then practice radical honesty. Stop hiding from him and stop running. Just simply and calmly tell him what you've done and why. Let him know how confused and scared you are. Tell him it's not what you want, but that you just don't know what else to do. Think about ways to do this that aren't accusatory to him.

If he reacts, Do not react. Just stay calm. He will be emotional and not in control.

You have to tear your walls down and be willing to risk getting hurt. He could be manipulating you still, or he could have had a change of heart.

What is the worst that can happen? You've already filed...

Jen - I think radical honesty would include that you're tired of feeling like you're just being some unpaid prostitute for him, and of no other value - and if that is the only place he wants you in his life, that game is over. You are a woman who made a mistake; and continuing to prostitute yourself for him isn't making restitution to him and isn't going to contribute to his healing OR yours.

"I need for him to
- tell me exactly what he's willing to do to work at saving our M (my bet is he'll stick to his, "I don't know" line though)"

I think YOU need for him to---
1. Tell that he loves you
2. Tell you that he is willing to recommit to the marriage
3. Tell you what HE needs YOU to do to help him to heal and ask if YOU are willing to accept his requests.

And I think HE needs to understand what YOU need to rebuild this marriage--
1. COUNSELING!
2. tell me he's willing to spend non-sexual time with me regularly
3. be open and honest with me about who he spends his time with
4. tell me that he cares enough to keep ALL EA women out of his life

And there's more,,more for BOTH of you. But this is your chance to lay your cards on the table and his chance to lay it out to you. Your chance to say "THIS is what I need from you. And I can accept and am willing to do what you need." This is his chance to do the same. That's not saying these requests may not change or expand as time goes on,,but it'll give you some idea of where you stand to get the ball rolling.

Understand that he MIGHT say he doesn't know what he needs or is willing to give. Remember, he isn't familiar with MB principles yet or the MB possee!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Jen you've been given great advice from the previous posters and I just want to add that if Jen wants to achieve happiness then Jen has to be true to herself.

Hi Jen, I'm sorry that I came accross a bit harsh in your other post yesterday. I want to encourage you to fast the rest of the day until your date and pray that God will put the words in your mouth. Yes you have to let him know that you filed for d. but reassure to him that you don't want to be divorced. make sure you contact your lawyer and put everything on hold. Now is not the time to disagree with your h. If he wants to talk about bad things about you just agree with him and say your sorry. Right now you have to rebuild your friendship so please don't bring up any of his faults. God will provide a time later on for this to be discussed: it is not now. While he is talking keep silent and pray to god for him to put the words in your mouth. the Bible says that if someone disputes against you agree with them quickly. If you don't agree with him quickly you will start fighting and push him further away. I would also like to encourage you to go to the following web site http://www.restoreministries.net/ and get a copy of 'before you divorce' and ' Restore Your Marriage Book for Women' I'll be praying for you Smiaj

<small>[ June 19, 2003, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: SMIAJ ]</small>

I'll suggest holding the relationship talk for a few dates.

I think it would be best if you both just spend some time together and have it be nothing but pleasant and safe. Take care of your lawyer on your own with no mention right at the moment if at all possible. If the letter has been sent is there a way you can intercept it? I'd find that out first before I started any heavy duty relationship talk.

Baby steps, baby steps. If you really want this to work, starting out with a "list" is not the way to go about it,for either of you, at least not for the first few dates. If you end up having to disclose the situation with the lawyer I would do it with an emphasis on how I'd been feeling hurt, lonely and in need of relief from all the turmoil of not knowing where the relationship was going. I would also make sure to thank and give him some admiration for these small steps he is making. If you want to see more of this from him be sure to give him some positive reinforcement.

You can do this Jen! Be patient. You cannot force a rose to bloom. You've waiting this long, there is no need to be in a big hurry. Solid recovery happens slowly and surely. Do not overwhelm him and try to keep the dates so you are not overwhelmed either. Enjoy each other. Our God is a God of miracles!

Jen -
Since you asked for advice....
My advice is you be honest after dessert (if you guys make it that far) and tell him about the divorce but that you are willing to put it on hold if he (and then list your boundaries for him)
1. Goes to MC
2. Gives up girlfriends
3. Is willing to stand up for you in front of family.

If he isn't willing to do these things, then what have you got???
DB

THanks for all the great advice, enouragement and prayers. I've only got a minute. I would ideally like to have a list with me, but I know that it's probably better to have a mental one. I talked to my lawyer. The letter went into the mail Tues., so he may even get it today if he checks the mail before we go for dinner. I have to tell him about the letter, no choice there. ANd I lean toward listening lots during dinner and then after, being direct about what I need. No more pussyfooting around.

I think there's a 10% chance he'll cancel by the way....he said for me to call him first to make sure something doesn't come up, like something with his mom? Sounds wishy washy to me.

I know some of you say to lay it all our and put it on the line, lay it all out, and others say avoid R talk, and don't make ultimatums. I will avoid R talk and listen as much as possible during dinner, and then I will be true to myself and tell him exactly how I'm thinking and feeling and what I want and need.

I'll check in again before I go.

Jen

Jen,

mmmrrppphhh meummmmh, mmmmm, ummmmm, mm, emmmmh...

Ooops sorry about that...I forgot to take the sock out of my mouth before posting to you... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

It WAS YOU ms. Brown whom I believe did tell me to put a sock in it, in a post way back!!!!! (not really me personally but I took it as that)
But too bad I spitting out the soggy the thing to say (ramble) on the following...

1. The above paragraph is all meant in jest...please know I am just kidding with you!!!!
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2. Lots of people have given you great advice...know that even though you go through these lows and highs where so much sees lost to you.... others can see the changes

and remember one of most important changes that you want to occur and IS occuring is YOU moving farther and farther away from the type of person who would ever engage in infidelity....
REGARDLESS of the low times when you feel judged by friends, family, even him....

That the actions that move you farther and farther from the type of person that would do something like that are what defines you and makes their pointless judgings have less and less meaning....

In shorter words..(which I rarely use).You are not the same JEN you were when you did what you did...
NOT a tiny feat by any means...and great way to go's and high fives from me...and others here I am sure....

So Jen we file for divorce regardless of the outcome when we have tried everything we know how to do...that still PRESERVES and MAINTAINS our inner selves and doesn't sell us short...

yeah you could have given in all along to the just sex attempts on his part...but in the end they would have left you hurt and hollow not because of any written rule of right or wrong..

NOT because what we here told you to do or not do.....BUT because that is what your soul told you...and it is you and your soul you face each day in the mirror...who said be true to thine self...

So even though doubting will occur keep your eye on the big goal and picture...Jen you wouldn't sell yourself out at this point for a shadow of a relationship that you envision with him..you know how painful shadowy relationships are...better than others.....keep to your own faith.

Good God someone stuff that sock back in me I can't quit typing.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OK for dinner here are my thoughts...

1. Don't order spahetti because if you laugh at any time while eating and blow noodles out your nose...it is very very unattractive. (i have this problem frequently and I am working on it..)

2. this one is for real...be very very cautious when communicating to him that you make you statements and boundairies revolve around you...
be wary of presenting desires and needs that back him into a corner and go more focused on you...

Jen says..
i have learned through all this that I need to be with someone who wants to spend time with ME> and I can't accept less in my life for it is not fair or right to either person...and it hurts to much and i don't want to hurt you or me anymore...
(not what he needs to do...but what you need to have)

Jen says
I need and want very much so to spend my life/time with someone who finds value in me and I in them to the point that outside interests that conflict with my own and my partners sense of security and partnership...
not you need to drop your two EA's

I also agree with Kily..let him talk...

just be wary of giving him things to that are answerable with I don't know...

be wary of coming off as if making demands on him...speak from your soul, speak from the point of you believe strongly in him and you..
speak from the point that no matter how bad things were you know and believe that lots of people can change..
speak from the point of what we had was not what either of are worthy of and deserve...and neither of you should settle for less again...

on and on and on I can go....someone shut me up please.......

peace to you Jen...
ARK

Here I come with my 2cents again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

An analogy for you. I forget what grade you teach but here goes.

You have a kid in your class, say a 14 year old, who has had more than his share of negative life changing events poured out upon his life in the last 12 months. He's depressed, disrespectful, unmotivated and generally a pain.However, beneath his hurt and pain, he's a kid with lots of potential, but due to his circumstances he just can't seem to get out of his funk. As his teacher,in an attempt to be a positive influence, you make him an offer, that if he'll do x you'll do z. He snubs it off time after time and sulks in his world of pity. Time goes by and finally he starts to open up to you and agrees to take you up on your offer. You're happy that there seems to be a break in the clouds in this kid's life. He's reaching out.

Now what would you think might be the best way to nurture this fragile beginning? Would you think the seedling in this kid's heart will take deep root and bloom, if right off the bat you pointed out the ways in which he had failed himself and you in the last year? Do you think that if you gave him a list of what he needed to do to improve his grade in your class and improve his life on your first meeting that he'd be encouraged. Personally, I don't think so. I would think you would want to do everything you could to tread lightly so as not to scorch that new seedling. I would water it with words of encouragement and praise and let him know how happy I was just to know that he was starting to take steps in a positive direction. I would offer to be available to listen, talk and work with him to help however I could. I would rejoice in the blessing of the first small step. Later, as the child grew stronger and was nourished by some positive exchanges, I would talk seriously and honestly about the hard work he needed to do to make his grade and life better.

You have all the power tonight Jen, the ball is in your court. You are the driving force in all this. Be careful not to squash the seedling before it has a chance to reward your efforts at nurturing with a flower.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will be true to myself and tell him exactly how I'm thinking and feeling and what I want and need.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You certainly must do this, but ask yourself and pray about whether TONIGHT is the most prudent time to do so. Now, as my dear mother would say....haste makes waste.

<small>[ June 19, 2003, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: mthrrhbard ]</small>

I agree with mthrrhbard.

I would ask him what he needs to make it work, (you know, to have a normal life with you again) and then listen. You can always talk about what you need later, or continue to D if you want. You don't have to take anything you don't want to take. This may be the first chance to finally find out something useful.

If not, all it will take is one phone call to start things going agin. I can't see any way you can loose in this, can you?

Again, if you start back with him, you will have plenty of time to tell what you need. Tonight I suggest you listen to him - you'll probably need to guide the conversation, but see what you can find out.

SS

<small>[ June 19, 2003, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

I ruined my life yet again. The letter arrived Thursday in the mail before we ever got to go for dinner. It hit him just about as hard (if not worse) than when I cheated on him. It made him feel like he'd been betrayed yet again (since we'd had a separation agreement we wrote last year). Talk about the world's worst judgement and timing on my part. He really was reaching out to me to try and see if we could work things out, and then "I need to know where my life is going and now" Jen and my decision to use a lawyer (who probably talked me into asking for more because it will help her to soak me for more money) may have ruined that all together. I should've listenend to the little voice inside me that said "don't do this." I'm phoning the lawyer to stop it all today. Even if every one of my friends and family think that I should end it and move on, I am not ready to do so. I still love him very much, and I won't be happier alone anyway. I spent hours talking with him last night, God is he ever hurting. He is so afraid to trust anyone or anything, and this has just pushed him further inside himself, and reduced his faith in people even more. I don't know if we'll ever be happy again, either one of us. We really were each other's world.

Jen <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Oh yeah and he was very hurt and angry that I spoke with him Wednesday night and never revealed anything about the letter. He said my dishonesty continues.

Stupid Jen. I told him I was waiting to talk to him in person after dinner yesterday about it, but he said sure you were, why should I believe that?

J

<small>[ June 20, 2003, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Good morning Jen,

You said:
"I ruined my life yet again."

Not yet you haven't!!!! Make a decision Jen, for both your sakes--are you in this 100% what it takes (not 100% what you WANT it to take) or are you 100% out of this? It takes 100% Jen, either way.

You said:
"He really was reaching out to me to try and see if we could work things out"

Dinner last night was not the first time he tried to reach out RECENTLY. Jen, it is not too late for you to do what it takes for him to feel safe enough to try to reach out again. It will take more on your part after the filing for divorce fiasco, but it can be done. It's up to you though if you want to do it, not all on your terms, but on the terms that it takes.

You said:
"I should've listenend to the little voice inside me that said "don't do this."

Or maybe asking why some here were telling you the same thing? In my opinion, not allowing yourself to make a fully informed decision is what led to your questioning and second-guessing your decision to file. I think you would have been discontent with your decision even if you chose to NOT file at that time, solely because it was not a fully informed decision.

You said:
"Even if every one of my friends and family think that I should end it and move on, I am not ready to do so"

It is YOUR LIFE!! Getting advice is good, listening to the views of others is good, letting others make your decisions regarding your life maybe not so good?

Jen, it is not too late!!! It is time to make a decision though. If you can't have marriage recovery all on your terms, do you still want it? Finding the answer is not as easy as it appears to be because it takes looking inside yourself and being brutally honest with yourself.

I know--I had to answer this same question. I finally found my answer and I am content with it, I didn't like my answer, but I am content with it because it is the right answer for me--against popular opinion I might add.

Take care Jen, I'll continue praying for your H and for you.

Jen you've been reaching out to him for a year. For a year he has treated you like a contemptable prostitute. Turn the questions and accusations around. Sure he was opening up to you. Sure he was going to reconcile.

Stop it. Stop second guessing yourself. You deserve respect and love. You've created a position of leverage now. Yes you can stop the divorce. He needs to show you why you should. He's a lazy butt! doesn't want to put in any effort - you are there for him to consume.

So how do you like being his "thing" instead of his wife? That's how he's treated you for an entire year. How can you give up your sense of human-ness so easily to continue that path of "thing-ness" with him as things have been? Lazy-butts don't get motivated until they get very clear that they're going to lose the best people in their lives?

Jen, consider this: If you knew, absolutely, that you were a sacred, unrepeatable child of God; confident in your worth as a human being... What would you say to his manipulative, guilt-laden accusations?

Jen....

One last time I'm going to suggest that you really need to stop trying to do everything yourself and then blaming someone else for "talking you into it". The answers are in Bible.

When's the last time you sought God's guidance?

When's the last time you sought Christian counseling?

I'm talking about what YOU need here. Yes, just as it was last Fall, your husband needs God's guidance too. But you keep this game going instead of surrendering your life to Christ. You keep are, by your own admission, a Christian. You need to be getting Christian advice and not secular advice. You need, especially, to be getting professional Christian counseling advice.

Frankly, were I your husband, just starting to take a few feeble steps back towards you (yes, he still has a lot of things that need fixing in him too), I'd have reacted the same way. Think of it this way...with all the crud that has gone on HE has not filed yet. He is not ready for that. Yes, he still has a lot of problems to deal with, but he didn't have the affair with his best friend and he didn't file for divorce with all the impact of a nuclear bomb coming out of the blue sky.

Jen, it is not too late. Yes, it could cause futher problems, but it could also be the first step in a wake up call for you both to stop the dramatics and get down to actually doing the hard work, no matter how long it takes.

Since I rarely check this board, I am sorry that I didn't see your thread until after you had told the attorney to send the papers. I would have strongly cautioned against that simply because you are NOT ready for a divorce yet. All you are is frustrated. So are most of us. So now you need to let your husband know that you love him but you both need to get into joint Christian marital counseling to help you both work through the problems. Without that guidance, there is little hope for your marriage because neither of you knows what to on your own.

Put God back in control and leave the control with Him. Stop trying to wrestle the control back to you. Every time you try to resume control, God will let you. He will not force his help and guidance on you. He will stand at the door waiting for you to ask Him in and let Him be in control of your life.

Do you ever feel like you are torn in two and going crazy? Remember, Jen, that is why God tells us that we cannot serve two masters. ONE person needs to be in control of your life. I pray that you will let Jesus be that one.

God bless.

P.S. I can't tell you how ANGRY your husband's behavior makes me feel. I know I'm a woman of worth. And I know that you are too. And I would not tolerate for a minute this game his been playing with you.

I'd just have to say, trying hard to avoid lovebusting, "You know hon? My feelings of being loved and cherished have been gone for so very long. Sex is not love - and I feel like gum on the bottom of your shoe most of the time, sex could never carry all that I would need to keep me alive in this relationship. I just don't feel like you consider me worth any effort to keep in your life. And in order to stay in this relationship, I have to have hope of feeling those feelings of being loved and cherished. And I have lost hope."

Just as we encourage folks to come here and vent their anger and frustrations (instead of with their spouses), you did the right thing in coming here and vent your anguish. Hopefully the next time you talk to your H, you won't have your emotions sabotaging what you KNOW Jen Brown has to do for Jen Brown's wellbeing.

Jen, your H's reaction to being served with the divorce papers MAY NOT be such a bad thing. I say this because even though it was not meant to be a wake up call, it MAY turn out to be just that. Besides, even if he doesn't wake up, he now KNOWS that the days when he could emotionally abuse you, are numbered. So something good could still come of this.

You may not be legally divorced just yet, but your present life certainly is one of a divorced person, and it is something that you could bring up with your H the next time you see him, by asking him 'Why does my serving you with divorce papers upset you so much, when WE have been living like we ARE divorced already?'. It would be interesting to see what answer he comes up with.

<small>[ June 20, 2003, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: T00MuchCoffeeMan ]</small>

Jen,
Quit beating yourself up!

I agree with these words by KaylaAndy:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen you've been reaching out to him for a year. For a year he has treated you like a contemptable prostitute. Turn the questions and accusations around. Sure he was opening up to you. Sure he was going to reconcile.

Stop it. Stop second guessing yourself. You deserve respect and love. You've created a position of leverage now. Yes you can stop the divorce. He needs to show you why you should. He's a lazy butt! doesn't want to put in any effort - you are there for him to consume.

So how do you like being his "thing" instead of his wife? That's how he's treated you for an entire year. How can you give up your sense of human-ness so easily to continue that path of "thing-ness" with him as things have been? Lazy-butts don't get motivated until they get very clear that they're going to lose the best people in their lives?

Jen, consider this: If you knew, absolutely, that you were a sacred, unrepeatable child of God; confident in your worth as a human being... What would you say to his manipulative, guilt-laden accusations? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You say your gut instincts told you not to serve the papers. We've all had that experience of not listening to our gut instincts.

Based on how your husband was treating you, you did something rather sensible. This experience can be the turnaround point.

Being served papers isn't being divorced. Even if you do divorce, things can still be mended. Perhaps this was the wake-up call he needed to get help for his drinking, EA's, and general unstable sounding behavior. You yourself said you wouldn't want him to be the father of your children, the way he is now. Let's not forget his suicide threats, either. These are not the actions of a stable, balanced person.

Again Jen, quit beating yourself up.

I know you tend to be a drama queen, and you've admitted it yourself. It's time to stop that stuff, and face all of this as a grown woman. Only you know if you're willing to work on your marriage with your husband.

Please, the drama of saying you've ruined your life is a bit much. From how you've described your husband, filing sounded like a very wise choice of someone who's mature enough to know they don't want to be treated as a 'thang' by a man who sounds very selfish and indulgent.

Don't mean to sound rough, Jen. I care about you!

Take care,
H_P

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Jen, it is not too late. Yes, it could cause futher problems, but it could also be the first step in a wake up call for you both to stop the dramatics and get down to actually doing the hard work, no matter how long it takes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I pray this is the case.

I just feel so dumb today. I wish I'd been smarter and made better choices all around.

Gotta run to work, will write more later in the day.

J