The Student,<P>Your are probably somewhat right about girls in math from a social standpoint, but there is a less socially correct reason for the change. In grade school, people are taught arithmatic not mathematics. It is memorization of math facts. By the time one hits high school mathematics abstract concepts are starting to be taught. In one sense comparing grade school to high school to college is really an apples and oranges type of thing.<P>Since you are in the PhD. program, Student, I'll give something to think about which is not really in the stream of this thread. I have always felt that the jump from a Masters degree to the PhD is much larger than the jump from a high school degree to the Masters. The reason is that up until the Masters degree it is more of the same lectures, study, and then tests. In the case of the PhD. you will be facing problems that may not have a solution and if they do they will take years to work out. (Your dissertation). In some senses this is along the lines of my arguement about the math grades.<P>I do agree with you about men and women having a different outlook. Is still however looking at the shape of two distribution functions. It is in the extremes where real differences are seen.<P>I would like to suggest something else for you to watch Student. Pay attention to how many of the married Ph.D. students male or female remain married once they get out of school. You will be very surprised. The female students are not losing out on this deal believe me. 10 years after graduation the percentage of female students married will match that of the male. But the married students will not very likely be with current spouse. I've seen this go on for a few decades now.<P>Good to hear from you Student. It is a very interesting topic and one usually only answered from ones own experience.<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited November 13, 1999).]

Essyboo,<BR>As a general rule, I would say that it takes women longer to forgive because they feel much deeper than men. This is NOT a UNIFORM ascertion. It is a general tendency because of the way God made male and female operate. It is alos why the little things mean so much to women. It takes a lot of effort to understand what feeling deeply means. I still have to work at it to keep it in the forefront of my thinking.<P>------------------<BR>God Bless,<BR>Rob<P><BR>

Well, I still think we all have more or less the same brain plus or minus a few hormones, so it couldn't be that different. I don't see how we could assert a "sexually biased" perspective without being able to identify some physical difference. Both men and women have a limbic system in equal proportion to the rest of the brain, so I don't believe that women "feel" things more strongly than men do. There is some evidence that estrogen improves memory, so that might be a factor, but I don't know how "proven" that is either.<P>I think it comes down to the person, and that is some combination of nurture and nature. My guess is we could learn a lot more by studying the psychology of particular people who won't forgive (I say won't because forgiveness is a choice we make), than to see if there is a gender explanation.<P>For example, people diagnosed with a "passive-aggressive" personality disorder characteristically are unwilling to forgive anybody for anything. Part of their behavior pattern is to maintain a long list of "ammunition" available whenever emotional superiority is required to win a fight. If you have ever been "dumped" on, you know what I mean. You are talking about who forgot to set the trash at the curb this morning, and suddenly everything you ever did in the last as long as you have know this person is thrown in your face. It's very difficult to deal with because you don't even know where to start responding, so the P-A person automatically wins the fight.<P>P-A people also have a hard time accepting that they have anything to answer for themselves. Everything that ever goes awry is completely someone else's fault. They view their own behavior as beyond reproach, or obviously motivated by unbearable circumstances created by somebody else.<P>There are lots of other types of dysfunctions, and I bet every single one of them results in somebody who cannot forgive. For instance an Obsessive-Compulsive person cannot forgive because they require complete control over their environments, including for the most part the other people in that environment. A lack of forgiveness can be a tool of control as well. Also they have a hard time accepting any behavior they feel unable to control.<P>When we choose not to forgive, we do it for our own reasons. It can only be motivated from within. So I believe anybody who cannot forgive is either still emotionally distraught over what ever it was, or has something personally to gain by holding on to the past.<P>For me, I couldn't forgive my ex wife until I let her go. I couldn't change her behavior, but I desperately wanted to save the relationship. That behavior was frustrating my efforts and also my desires. My strongest personality type is "Conscientious", so when I move towards dysfunctional behavior I tend to become more controlling (Obsessive Compulsive is the associated dysfunction). So I remained very angry. And really, I was angry because I wanted a different outcome than I was getting, and I saw my ex as the "uncontrollable" factor that was frustrating my desires. Once I finally saw that I had to let her go, that my destiny lay elsewhere and I couldn't do anything about it or her, forgiveness came very easily. Well, more easily, anyway.<BR>

I have another perspective. Even Harley states that even the women's movement hasn't changed the fact that women want to feel taken care by their husbands. They want to be supported. I wonder if an affair by the H is more detrimental to this feeling of security.

EssyBoo,<P>What you are seeing is that there are a myriad of reasons for explaining why one person can and another cannot forgive. Part of it is expectations and another is experience. <P>I would expect that if you are raised in a family where grudges are made and keep then forgiving will be very difficult. On the opposite extreme if you are in a family where people apologize for making a mistake and the apology is accepted then forgiving is something with which you are familiar.<P>There is a different from how much the betrayal hurts, which is in someways is related to expectations and dependencies within the marriage and the issue of forgiveness.<P>Note on this board how many people are relying on their religion as a guide for them to be forgiving although they don't really feel that inclined to do so at first. This is true of both betrayed and betrayers. Who ever is having a hard time of letting go of the past. Two examples come to mind Facing Choices and PodPerson are both betrayers but they have not forgiven there spouses. Seems backward doesn't it?<P>Also remember that women may accept the betraying H back for financial and security reasons but that does not mean that he is ever forgiven. This is one of the main objectives of the Harley method is acheive that state of forgiveness so that the marriage can regain health.<P>You sure got the full range of answers but it seems to still come down to the individual and not the sex of the person on this issue. And upon reading these posts, I would guess that getting back together may not mean that forgiveness has taken place. So even the appearance of forgiveness is probably not really reliable.<P>As usual, I am learning alot about very subtle issues.

I just have to say that I believe (in my opinion totally) that I am more forgiving than my Husband would have been. I don't honestly believe that my Husband would have sat around for a year doing Plan A or Plan B. I may be wrong but that is my honest opinion. I think he would have been out the door if I had had an affair. Especially if I wasn't willing to give it up. Maybe he is wiser than me, who knows.