Terr...

you just seem like you are floundering out there....

that things are still the same in a lot of ways...

you can't force or make anyone do something...

you can not be responsilbe for his own actions and behaviors...

you are not happy in this setting...
and yet you stay....

also don't confuse my/(our) encouragement to shake things up as encouragement in moving away from him or giving in to a divorce...

I think you need to shake things up a notch...because he won't....and both of you are going to content in this make believe world of this is a good way to live...

he is the epitomy of avoidance on any real level or depth...

his anger is his tool to control and disarm you from addressing and getting real...

box up the office stuff...and
1. drive in YOUR car to his place with daughter knock on his door and say here...I was thinking you might want these things.....smile...and leave....

2. Inform him today that on Sept 31/1 you will be going away for the night....NO DETAILS...and he needs to watch daughter...and that you can bring her over to his place...around 8:00am

what's he gonna do get mad....
get mad at you for expecting him to be a real father...in the sense from the day he walked out on you and her...you have had sole custody...and spent hundreds of nights alone with her...
does he have any ground to stand on to get mad at you if you do the same thing he does night after night...

tell him you are going to need every wednesday night to be free...as you have plans...THEN MAKE SOME>>>>>>

Roars at me for LETTING her do this so that all the neighbours can hear. And how was I going to stop her???? She can now open the door by herself. Was I supposed to?

Sorry...dear..perhaps you are right...perhaps from now on we can do visitation at your place...
and annoy YOUR neighbors...mine have had enough you lately.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think the older your daughter gets the harder changes will be...
moves that gain you strength and independance and freedom from being yelled at are not moves that make you to blame for his actions...

pack his crap up and get it out of your life...
change the paint color again...and don't ask him for a sliver of an opinion...

drop by his place with daugther...with icecream dripping out of your hands...so he lets you in...and say we in the neighborhood thought we'd stop in....

quit being scared....
tell him about taking daughter...
take stuff to his house...

you two are not even an inch closer to really processing this whole thing...regardless of the outcome...it's all avoiding and pretending...he is the king..and your fear plays well on you...

Dam Ter I sound so mean....and yet I am not trying to be....This could be the same post a year ago...

you believe this thing is over and a done deal and he's in paradise with freaky OW...
but the truth is this guy hasn't been honest enough with one thought, feeling or action of his...to process any of it...
he is no catch he is sooo loaded with baggage I'm suprised he can stand up straight...let alone look in the mirror...

It's like it is all smoke and mirrors..if we don't talk about it...it won't be real...

But what you are creating isn't real either is it?...

Don't go belly up...
Terr you aren't and weren't the wife from hell...
I know it...
He knows it...
you better come to know it....soon , now, today...
And he is just as responsible for issues prior to affair in the marriage...

and he, he alone is 1000000000000000000000% accountable for actions of his affair...

there is no fear in pointing that out in your new refusal to play dead for him....

terr make a plan a list...of three things that you will do to empower you and prove that you can make a change...and regardless of your perceived or real threats of divorce or whatever...that you will still survive...

once you start it will feel awesome..
and you need to feel a little awesome

ARK

T --
We've been talking about this for a long time, and he is doing exactly what I told you he would do. He's going to try to create the image that this affair is a new relationship and everyone should be happy for poor-long-suffering H.
BULLS()#@$*&%)(#@$*%)#$(*%.

Tell everyone you can. Stop making this easy for him. Tell everyone you can that he left you for another woman.

Why are you protecting him from all of these consequences? Do you think he appreciates it?? HA. You're in Plan B. LB's don't count anymore.

Break this cycle.

By the way T....as a FWS, I can tell you that the only thing my H could have done that would have made a difference was Plan B and exposing me.

I would have had a huge reaction to that. And I would have been hugely concerned about him "wrecking my plan" to introduce OM after a suitable time so all my friends and family would accept him and be happy for me.

Plus Plan B would have greatly interfered with my need to control all the outcomes.

YOU HAVE TO DO THIS. You are losing the ability to have impact the longer you wait and protect him from his choices.

Make him truly understand what being a divorced dad is all about. Make him envision being replaced by a stepdad. Make him envision you creating a new family without him.

Thats where your power is -- USE IT.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your daugther has been going places alone with her dad for nearly 2 years. I doubt that spending a night(s) alone with him would seem that much different? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then you said:

You would think so BUT I think he's avoiding it or deferring it until he gets a house, he says.

I'm with Ark in that I don't care much WHAT his reasons are. I meant to address your fears of your daughter's comfort level. She'll be ok with him, he appears to take care of her. I don't think staying overnight will be anymore confusing than his picking her up & dropping her off are. She's already in the confusion, she's been living this way for a long time and as long as he doesn't freak out...she'll be ok.

Floundering...really good description of me right now although I try to convince myself otherwise.

Okay, and I don't like the visual that goes with "floundering".

Wednesday night I went to IL's to pick up D at 7:30. Had supper for me waiting. Then they made coffee. We left at 9:45. Wow, it's an incredible relationship I have with them. It's almost as if they want me around as much as possible, you know. And I NEVER speak of H in their presence.

Thursday, H had a day trip planned with his cousin and family. No problem. I packed D's stuff for the day, brought her to IL's where H picked her up and off I went to work. By the way, H HATED that I dropped her off at IL's...oh well. "why do you have to involve them..." he says.

By the way, called my mother "ma" again for the first time...not that I was around for it or that I asked...my mother just mentioned it in conversation AND he called on the way home last night to indicate he was on his way and started to tell me as out D and her fun at Centerville...what she ate, the rides...but I cut it off nicely. She arrived home sleeping...

This morning, had to bathe D before school. At 8:00 a.m., MIL calls. Bring her here after her bath so that you can go to work. I'll feed her breakfast and bring her to school. Wow...that would really help me, I say.

Aren't they amazing??

And of course, I'm in a meeting this morning and H calls...don't know why he needs to...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you need to shake things up a notch...because he won't....and both of you are going to content in this make believe world of this is a good way to live... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You're right...but there's that fear factor in me...I don't have the support to shake things up, Ark. My mother will throw her tantrum if I bring D anywhere near his apt citing that I'm being selfish and my MIL will have a breakdown.

In the end, it will be my fault that I shook up D's world. Unless I go dark with his family and mine, I will have absolutely NO local help.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry...dear..perhaps you are right...perhaps from now on we can do visitation at your place...
and annoy YOUR neighbors...mine have had enough you lately.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love this and only wish I will have the opportunity...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">pack his crap up and get it out of your life...
change the paint color again... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you serious? And with D in tow? And what happens when he tells the world that I exposed D to my antics, as he so often calls them?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dam Ter I sound so mean </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO...you don't. You're laying the cards on the table...I need this Ark. I need to be pushed to stop floundering. I need to be reminded that where I am isn't where I want to be. Because it isn't. I want to be at the place you describe. I honestly do.

Lex, Okay...I've started to tell the truth. Not ALL details...and only when anyone asks. He's gone and has left for OW. Believe me...there are enough people that know the real truth no matter what lies he attempts to perpetrate.

I just needed to know that it was okay to start being completely honest. It's hard to betray him. Isn't that a strange feeling? And at the same time, I have no idea how he's managed to betray me and others to the extent he has without feeling rotten to the core. Saw someone at the grocery store last night and they asked...I confirmed but with not without hesitation or emotion.

Lor, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm with Ark in that I don't care much WHAT his reasons are. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay...I will try to do this but again, the consequences I face re:IL's and my mother are huge but as I write this, I realize, he'll have to tell them that he didn't want his daughter to go there. Wow...interesting.

Thank-you to all of you.

OK Terr...

Reality lessons 101 begins soon for mother and inlaws...

Basic information in the is course will be the enlightenment and realization...

that visitation of daughter to husbands apartment...is
1000000000000000000000000000% direct result of husbands INFIDELITY....

MIL and you mom will learn that selfish is a man that abandons his wife and daughter and decides all his own that she will take sole SOLE responsibility for watching daughter 24/7 while he is free every single god darn night of his life...to play hockey play soccer...too mess around the internet and do what ever else his sorry selfish piece of an anbandoner likes to do....while waiting like a perched kingfisher to strike at you if you make one movement of being done with this.....

or doing anything A N Y T H I N G but his way...

two years atleast and hasn't taken your daughter once to his apartment...and you'd be selfish....
my eyes are rolling out of my head....

leave daugther with someone when you GO TO HIS PLACE AND DROP HIS CRAP OFF...kindly nicely...thought you might want these things...I have some other plans for the house right now...BUH-BYE...

"why do you have to involve them..." he says.

You are right you know...from now on...pick her up the night before and she can spend the night with you at your place...infact we need to start doing this...as I have some engagements coming up soon that I need to attend...really looking forward to getting out you know.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

the consequences I face re:IL's and my mother are huge but as I write this, I realize, he'll have to tell them that he didn't want his daughter to go there.

don't you dare accept any of this as your consequances...HIS and HIS alone...and if you have to hold reality school every single day in your life like a broken record to MIL and MOM...so be it..they'll get it...
don't you dare apoligize once for it...not once....

you come back...
this is what HE wants
this is what HE chose..
this is what CREATED moving out...

Terr you CAN do this...you can, you should and you must....

ark
who is chanting...
goterrigoterrigoterrigoterrigoterrigoterrigoterri

Terri,
PLEASE consult with Cerri on the Just Found Out board. She started a thread ("Cerri's Thread . . .") that has wonderful information on the rigth and wrong way to do Plan B. She is professionally trained, and an awesome coach. I really think you could use her insight. Please post to her thread.

(((((((T))))))),

So sorry it still hurts. Grieve if you can, let it out.... that has been helping me move on some lately.... my rollercoaster still goes up and down.

One part of your post struck me...
the part about how does he do all this- without feeling rotten to the core?

It is called PROJECTION. WH projects that it is all T, T's antics, T's this, T's That..... Well what about WH, and his this or that, and this kind of verbal abuse, and that kind of emotional abuse, and the breaking of marriage vows?

It's all your fault, right? That is why he feels ok. WS 101, don't forget that martian pic on our MB pics!!!!

Get it clear in your mind that he is the one doing the mean things... you are only responding as a Godly woman in the midst of a crazy situation.

I don't have much wisdom tonight, but want you to know you are thought about and cared about by me! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I know the pain of a man who is avoiding taking responsibility for HIS ACTIONS. YOu only need take responsibility for yours, not his.... and don't play into his hand/ because he is waiting to trap you into being a meanie T. He wants excuses to blame you, any excuse he can find... it needs to be your fault... so that HE can LOOK in the Mirror.... and say, it is T!!! not me, wh.

I know you know all this, but I also know how depressing and terrible this mess can be! I know I can spiral down into some real sadness/ have some real anger/ and then just say to heck with him! ... What a rollercoaster! Maybe throw in a few kind words that he, wh, speaks to me, to keep me off balance, or keep me hooked that is....

We have to say no to being treated this way! I am proud of your strong stance... you have reduced his abuse. Count your accomplishments T.

Create a list of the good things you have done and then put a magnifying glass over the good ways you are dealing with his betrayal/ magnify the good in your life/ your D, your job/ your friends/ your figure!

OK --- then demagnify the bad stuff... let's make it smaller so that you can feel better - we all make mistakes... MOVE ON, and make more good things happen that you can look at under your magnifying glass...

Maybe we should burn those bad things every once in a while so that we can feel better????

Hugs, Honey

<small>[ August 08, 2003, 06:00 PM: Message edited by: Honey ]</small>

Terr -

I would just like to whole-heartedly endorse what Honey has just said about projection - you know I've said before, that when my H is angry, he sounds so much like your H - and projection is clearly what my H does when anger overwhelms him.

For example, on our last MC session, when our fourth attempt at MC failed, he couldn't face up to the reality of his own aggressive behaviour, and exploded, walking out. The counselor managed to get him back in the room to discuss "where you go from here". He turned to me and said "What's REALLY going on here, is that SHE has one helluva temper that she cannot control, AND she is so extraordinarily competitive that she cannot tolerate anyone disagreeing with her." Those words, of course, describe him to a T.

He also used all of my attempts to take responsibility for whatever I had contributed to the marriage breakdown to uphold his own projection. For example, we finally had a conversation where I told him that my angry outbursts had been a conscious decision on my part, to never let him get away with treating me badly - to stand up to him. I told him he did some things in the first year of our married life which really frightened me, and I decided I couldn't let him get away with treating me like that. Of course, I NOW know that responding with anger was NOT the best way to deal with this - I should have walked away and not got sucked into his rage. But I didn't know then. Well, he brought this up in our counselling session and described it as my "admitting she has an anger problem".

My counselor said the following week, when I met with her for the last time, that he twists what I say to mean what he wants it to mean, and that he is very CLEARLY projecting his own problems on to me, also that he was very verbally abusive to me.

I am very clear about this - and I do NOT take his stuff on to me, no matter how angry he can get. I am not going to be intimidated by his rage into accepting his perception of ME - I KNOW who I am, even if he wants to tell the whole world and his brother that I am something different and that what happened was all my fault.

I expressed the fear to one of my friends that others would believe what he said about me, and this friend said "Well I have seen hints of his anger in action and I don't think anyone would believe that about you - its clear to everyone who knows the two of you what is going on here."

And that's the key, Terr - no matter what he SAYS about you to others, about WHY he just had to leave (your fault), the way you are currently dealing with the separation (plan B), your ACTIONS tell others what kind of person you are. I remember a long time ago, you told us that you were invited to a party alone, and went, and H made some derogatory comment to you afterwards, like 'so they felt sorry for you!" and you said you replied to him quietly "No, they asked me because I am a beautiful person and they like me for myself", which stunned him into silence and then he said "Yes, you are". That's the kind of spirit you need to hold on to, Terr. And look what it did to him then.

Everyone in their right mind can see what kind of a person you are Terr - even his parents, otherwise they wouldn't be the way they are with you. You have protected him from the consequences of his behaviour for too long. When others ask, you make sure you let them know the TRUTH. That he left you for another woman, NOT that that started "just recently". Don't let him get away with the lie that he would have left you anyway. That's a lie and you know it.

When I found my H's letter to OW1 saying he had "been thinking about leaving for 3 years, couldn't stand it any more, and if our marriage breaks down, it won't be your fault" - (this was a total shock to me: I had NO IDEA he was feeling this way), one of the reasons I went to her family and told two close family members was because I wanted, IF our marriage were to break down, I wanted it to be known in her family that their R had started BEFORE our marriage broke down. I wasn't going to keep his secrets, and I wasn't going to take the blame, especially if he was going to refuse to work on US.

Be strong, Terr. - your friends know and love you. Look at it this way - if you love your H, be a part of his learning process - he is not going to learn what he needs to learn in life if you let him get away with heaping the blame for his ruined life onto you.

Love and blessings to you, terr.

LIR

<small>[ August 09, 2003, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: Lady_In_Red ]</small>

Terri,
If your H isn't in sales, he's missed his calling. He uses words to his advantage in an amazing, twisting, persuasive way.

Your H talks about "your antics"? Good grief.

You aren't selfish. Anyone who would think so is nuts. And you can't worry about people who are nuts. That includes your mom. She wants you to give up, so what does she think that entails? If you divorce him as she thinks you should, does she think your H would never have your D overnight? Nothing you do seems right with your mom. Deal with her as well as you can.

You aren't wrong to want to protect your daughter and maybe you are having some gut instinct that tells you not to press on this overnight issue? But your H has no such inclinations, he uses his drop-off/pick up time to push your buttons and denigrate you, and that is wrong--doubly wrong, even inexcusable, when it is done in front of your daughter.

If your MIL offers to help you, accept, then direct him to tell her his recriminations. You don't have to listen. MIL probably is seeing some of his "uncivil" side (golly, maybe even some of HIS "antics") and I don't see a problem with that.

I'd suggest that you really think about why you accept his decree that D won't stay overnight with him.

Is it because you need your daughter's companionship?
Protectiveness?
You want to know first hand that she is safe and taken care of at night?
It keeps the contact with your H going?
You fear D staying overnight when he doesn't want that?
You fear if something happens while she is with him, he'd blame you?
Or, you'd blame yourself?
You fear him, fear crossing his wishes/decree?
You feel you have to do what he says?
You'd have to legally force him if he won't voluntarily change?
(anything else)

Maybe if you can nail down, or prioritize the reason(s), you'll have a clearer idea of what you should do about it. Because...it doesn't make sense on his part and you should know why you allow something insensible, if it is a solid reason and not emotional fear.

I think this situation could go on as is for a much longer time. Your H isn't pursuing the divorce, and you don't want to. If you can live like this, maybe the situation ( Plan B with limited visitation-type contact) is ok. But it doesn't sound ok with you. It's easier to follow goals if you are comfortable with them, or are confident they are right.

Do you think it might be time for another counseling call with Steve Harley?

Terri, I have little doubt that if your H continues on in his current mode, and does lose or alienate you, someday he will regret it...whether or not he lets you know that he does.

Hello...hope everyone enjoyed the weekend. I didn't have much time to post a thoughtful reply. Had a b-day party on Saturday and a pool party on Sunday...

H came to D's soccer game on Saturday (his 2nd appearance of the season). I love coaching this team of sweeties enough to have been preoccupied with the game and running alongside my players...however, he waited until I dist'd the stickers (one of my best friends and her D stick around) and walked beside me to tell me of the swimming lesson the night before...his walking beside me HURT so much. Little things...but my demeanor was detached...behind my sunglasses were the tears that welled up after he turned to go to his car. "Bye guys, he said..." like a stranger.

Of course, doesn't he leave a message at home to let me know that, since D is with me 95% of the time, that I should be firmer with her, discipline her more, etc...he noticed that she interrupted several conversations I was having with parents and I said nothing (not true) and of course, she cried when she let a goal past her in her 5 minute stint as goalie...okay, he wasn't there two weeks before when D scored two goals and her best bud cried because she didn't...they're FOUR year olds!!

I am not the strictest of parents but I do try to pick my battles. Needless to say, I did not respond to this message and deleted it immediately. Thankfully, a b-day party followed the soccer game and kept both D and myself busy.

Fastfoward to Sunday...H plays soccer Sunday mornings. We were invited to pool party at 12:00 noon. Me and seven couples...his friends/my friends...

Brought her home by 6:30 so she could see her dad...suggested to D they go to Chapters and they did...he came by at 7:00 and was back by 9:00. She was fast asleep.

Dear Ark, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">goterrigoterrigoterrigoterrigoterrigoterrigoterri </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kept this text in my mind all weekend log...even when I told my mother in passing that D should be going to H's apt...my mothers resists, "why...that will be terrible for D..." yes, it will but this is not of my making.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Terr you CAN do this...you can, you should and you must.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know but I cannot stand to see his apt, go to his apt or acknowledge...I was there once and it killed me for weeks. I don't want to see what he's built without me. Do I have to?

Hi Curious, Thank-you for pointing me to Cerri's thread. I definitely am in need of as much coaching as I can get.

Dear Honey, Hope you're well. Interesting concept and it really does fit the bill.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is called PROJECTION. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I doubt my H will ever stop projecting!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> want you to know you are thought about and cared about by me! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank-you for this and I feel the same.

Hi LIR, Nice to hear from you too...I applaud you your success.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and projection is clearly what my H does when anger overwhelms him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And what helped him to overcome or decide to work on this problem? Did he always view his anger as an issue?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I told him that my angry outbursts had been a conscious decision on my part, to never let him get away with treating me badly - to stand up to him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This describes the wife I became...I didn't want to be stepped on...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"Well I have seen hints of his anger in action and I don't think anyone would believe that about you </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Strange coincidence...one of my friends recently mentioned this very same thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I found my H's letter to OW1 saying he had "been thinking about leaving for 3 years, couldn't stand it any more, and if our marriage breaks down, it won't be your fault" - (this was a total shock to me: I had NO IDEA he was feeling this way), </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow...ditto for me although I never found a letter, H told many of this feeling...however, my SIL recently mentioned that H had said that and she believed it to be true. So glad to hear that I'm not the only one...

How did your H come around to wanting to work on your marriage?

Lor, you made me laugh so hard, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If your H isn't in sales, he's missed his calling. He uses words to his advantage in an amazing, twisting, persuasive way. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He's been in sales for 13 years!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nothing you do seems right with your mom. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely true...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'd suggest that you really think about why you accept his decree that D won't stay overnight with him. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's due mostly to protecting D from seeing her Dad in another environment and how she will deal with that, my own insecurities with having to deal with D possibly liking her Dad's place more or NOT...

How did you deal with your daughters' visits to Dad's place?

I do want to challenge our current position but don't want to push separation proceedings.

Thanks to all.

Terr...

why...that will be terrible for D..." yes, it will but this is not of my making.

"NO she will be fine going to her Father's apartment. She is four she will be just fine..."

oh wait is he living in a crack house?...that might not be soooo good...but pretty much anything else...I think she will be fine...
remember that you aren't protecting her..you are actually now protecting husband,...mom...and MIL...anyone else to add to the list?...

If OW was "there" in proximity...then I see protecting her...but protecting her from hubby's choices...I don't understand it...
and how you get so many people to protect him as well...don't understand that one either...

know but I cannot stand to see his apt, go to his apt or acknowledge...I was there once and it killed me for weeks. I don't want to see what he's built without me. Do I have to?

it didn't kill ya terr...cause here you are...
Don't go in...Don't go with daughter...
take his stuff in a box ring/knock...DON'T SHOOT <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> !!!
And say here's some stuff I found laying around...don't want it thought you might...and then leave....
LOOK FABULOUS AS ALWAYS>>>
when is the last time you two were together alone an not on his evil weapon of communication..phone/e mail etc..??
don't go in even if he were to invite you..

Terr I think you need to really set the boundary of him taking her for overnight...and really create the illusion that you are doing something mysterious and wonderful and intriguing....two years you have lived and rearranged your life and schedule to fit his...and he's the one that left....

Call him now and say...sorry but I just got off the phone and i have some plans this weekend...and You NEED to watch your daughter...

do it after the soccer game...
I don't care if he has soccer...hockey...chess club and the twiddly-winks curling scrabble championship lined up...TOO BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He gets to come and take daughter...fun wonderful exciting places...wooo hooo....ahhhggggghhh it makes me sick..

I do want to challenge our current position but don't want to push separation proceedings

so you want to keep living like this...day after day after day after day...
What is his plan...that on daughter graduation day she gets to see his apartment???

He's not pushing seperation...seperation agreements would make him accountable...and probably cut in to all his free time....

he likes things how they are...
and there ain't no seperation agreement or divorce decree that can't be changed or stopped...

but right now nothings changing....and he get ALL he wants....
with everyones blessing...and guess what...

He's still angry and attacking...
huh???

as far as I am concerned enough is enough...
and I'm still not giving up on you and him...cause he and you haven't really changed much...and no one has had to face the reality of this...
it's all been about protecting him...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Terr you are a great mom....a good wife....a fabulous person...and you are above this game playing...no matter how much he and mil and mom want to keep this going...it is becoming insane....

you are worth so much more....and deserve to be in charge of you and your life...not him and them...

ARK

Okay Ark...I have some questions...and I also have to remind you that your words have a profound effect on me. It's as if you know who I am and what I'm all about.

Before I ask my questions, I want to note one more thing that was said and reinforced by someone over the weekend..."he appears very sure and comfortable with his decision. That's why he's able to present himself everywhere and act as if nothing has happened. He's confident he's done the right thing. Let him go, Terri. He's sure."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">take his stuff in a box ring/knock... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And how should I present myself? With politeness? With a smile? Matter of factly? Elusive? Nostalgic? By now, you should realize that this will bring me to tears and I don't want that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Call him now and say...sorry but I just got off the phone and i have some plans this weekend...and You NEED to watch your daughter...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, but what if he takes D to his mother's for sleepover?.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">so you want to keep living like this...day after day after day after day... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it's all been about protecting him... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have been protecting myself too, haven't I?

he appears very sure and comfortable with his decision.

What decsions??!!!!!!!!!!!..The only DECISION he has made is too decide NOTHING>....

People who are covinced and committed to a DECISION do SOMETHING!!!!!! he has done NOTHING!!!nadda...zipppo.....kaaa-kaaa....negatoro...not one cotton picken blessed thing has he done...

EXCEPT!!
EXCEPT!!....drag all this out like snail to make it appear NORMAL and NOT of is OWN DOING...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> THERE I believe I just had a tantrum...and I need something cold to drink....

Terr...He hasn't done anything...in fact you've been doing everything...taking full care of daughter...
day to day..
upkeep on the house...

uggghhhhh!!! he's a snail moving not doing nothing making any decision EXCEPT hanging threats over you....type of man...

and mom and MIL think he's happy....hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

HAPPY people do things that seal their 'happines"...

comfortable with his decision. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
comfortable people take their children to their home show them their choices and comfortableness... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Let him go, Terri. He's sure."

That is hysterical and ludacrous...tell me you grabbed your stomach and fell over from laughing so hard....

Ter the truth is you have let him go....really in the physical logistical sense of where he lives and what he is accountable...you don't have one thing holding him back...

you don't spend hours every day begging pleading with him...not at all...you must have magical powers???? is that how you hold him back..

are you a witch...
would you float or sink if we dunked you in the bay???

he holds himself back...him ...loco amego...

who holds him back.????????
he alone holds himself back...!!!!!
"you need to let him go"!!!!!!!!!!!ha hah haha hha hhha hhha ha hah ah ahhhha haaaa that is tooooooooo FUNNY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The thought that someone has the nerve to tell you to let him go...makes me laugh really really hard...
find the strength...to say...ummm excuse me...but I'm not holding him back from doing one thing....

He is NO VICTIM too you....

Okay, but what if he takes D to his mother's for sleepover?.

I don't care...you should not care...it is not your responsibility

his and his alone....why why why do you keep making yourself responsible for his logistics and his consequances...

I don't care where he takes her...and neither should you nor must you not...and I say that with the same concern and trust that you have that she is 1000000000% safe with him...

I don't care if they go to mommies...to his place...to the moon or the local Holiday Inn...

not your problem and not your concern...
remove yourself..and tell him you have plans and no more info than that...and make it seem exciting and mysterious..;.and if it is an ER trip emergency...to call you on your cell phone....

And how should I present myself? With politeness? With a smile?

yep those work for me...two minutes at the door...
what terr...do you really believe giving him back his diplomas will make him call his lawyer back and demand a divorce.....
yeah right...

wanna bet??
wanna lay some money down????

I am divorcing my wife because I abandoned her and my daughter two years ago...but what made me file for divorce was the day she returned my diplomas to me...that just proves she was a horrible wife!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

aaaahhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
goterrigoterrigoterrigoterrigoterrigoterrigoterri...
if I was in toronto right now...I would be dialing his number and handing you the phone...right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ARK....who thinks you are great...and are going to be great....and can do anything you put your mind to...and might even play barry mannilow in honor of your new found strength...
when you find it... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

And how should I present myself? With politeness? With a smile?

You could also look really tense and be holding Yugoslavia brochures, a plane ticket holder, and your passport <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> or pick them up off the top of the box. (Just for tweaking your H...don't actually go there.)

And, I agree with Ark, there's no problem if he takes D to his mom's. Most of the time she sounds very motherly/grandmotherly. YOU aren't imposing on MIL, HE would be.

..."he appears very sure and comfortable with his decision. That's why he's able to present himself everywhere and act as if nothing has happened. He's confident he's done the right thing. Let him go, Terri. He's sure."

I thought we just established he's a SALESMAN. He's selling that he's confident. He's working it. That's what I think anyway.

And, for goodness sake, take the collar and chain off the poor man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> . OH? No collar. Yeah, you aren't holding him anywhere. He's got his own holding pattern.

If he's waiting for you to be happy about the divorce, that's his choice. YOu don't have to accomodate that. But it allows him to blame you, again for some unattainable criteria he's chosen.

You aren't going to be happy about the affair, the separation or divorce. And if you are ever happy about an of those things, you will have moved so far from him emotionally that it won't matter to YOU.

I'm so happy you've had a good time coaching your little one. You don't have a thing to worry about your parenting skills, and your H a lunkhead for criticizing you for any part of the wonderful time you spend with your D.

<small>[ August 11, 2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Lor (Lor) ]</small>

It's due mostly to protecting D from seeing her Dad in another environment and how she will deal with that, my own insecurities with having to deal with D possibly liking her Dad's place more or NOT...

How did you deal with your daughters' visits to Dad's place?

Terri, Your D knows he's not at your house, I think not ever seeing where he goes is the odd part.

Liking her Dad's place more. Other than initial new territory, I think that is doubtful. Your home is her home, with her stuff and memories. If she's comfortable at his house, her comfort wherever she is would be one of your priorities, so that isn't a bad thing.

If she doesn't like it, then, re-evaluate the situation. On one hand, I don't believe that would happen because I think your H is too prideful to have his daughter hate being with him. I believe he would facilitate that she does like it there. And if he does not, the other reason would be to make you feel bad. But...though he does like to make you feel bad, it's a little counter-productive to his being super-dad vs terrible mom.

Maybe I'm over-thinking. Maybe he isn't that Macchiavellian (sp? and assuming you know the Italian author of manipulation). But I think your H does what is good for him. Having D hate his apartment is not good for him. And, maybe that is the reason he doesn't want her there, because he's not sure that it will go well and he must be sure he's in the right?

And I said I didn't care what his reasons are and just spent quite some time trying to ineffectively untangle them!

My daughters were both teenagers by the time my H had his house and had them overnight. The older one had said she would refuse, but when she knew we were getting divorced, she figured that was a futile position, and just went. My H gave them his full attention and from what they said it went fine.

Sweetie --
Please listen to me, because I was your H. I tried the same things, I had the same ideas.

Believe me, my marriage wasn't terrible until I decided to think of it that way (because of my foggy brain). I convinced myself that I was miserable so that I could justify the affair.

Your H is still actively involved in his affair, so his thinking is still clouded.

He's trying to break the ice and warm everyone up to the idea that he's got someone new. And you've enabled that.

Stop making things easy for him.

Why should he get 100% freetime to do whatever he wants (soccer, hockey, whatever) while you pull the parenting load 24/7?????

Why shouldn't you have scheduled visitation so that you could plan some time for yourself for grown-up stuff? You are entitled to have activities and fun stuff too. Its a mistake to live your entire life around your child. If he has her every Wednesday nite, then you go get a pedicure or your hair done or take a cake decorating class!

And you should have every other weekend free to plan some trips to come see your MB fan club. (come see me first!) So what if he has soccer. Let HIM make arrangements for a babysitter. You've totally let him off the hook.

Its time for him to face the facts. Why are you protecting him from the consequences of his choices???

The reality is that if he wants a divorce, your d is going to learn to accept this new lifestyle. Why should you be the only one to answer her questions? Let him explain all of this to her himself.

She ran screaming down the driveway? Good. Thats what little kids do sometimes. Let him learn to deal with it.

HUGS!! Miss ya!

TEN THINGS TERRIFIED COULD DO ON WEDNESDAY THINGS

1. BELLY DANCING LESSONS... Hmmm wonder where I got that idea... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

2. Walleye and Northen Pike fishing...specializing in putting her own bait on the hook...(not so girlie girl now are ya?)

3. A really cool cooking class.

4. A wine tasting group...(drunk snobs can be very entertaining)...

5. a wonderful yoga class or pilates class that just makes you feel good.

6. A really awesome book club in which she meets a lot of new people...who like her LOTS!!!! and they've never even met her husband...and they LIKE her !!!!!!!!!!!! hmmm imagine that one...

7. goes to a karioke bar at the holiday inn near the airport..specialing in neil diamond...barry mannilow and a little billy joel......meets lots of fun and neat travelers who invite her and daughter to all kinds of really exotic places.

8. lessons on how to run the lawn mower and do landscaping...really well.

9. Karate lessons...so her 90 pound frame becomes a black belt...and NO one messes with her any more...

10. A scultpturing class in which terr learns to make and specialize in really scarey looking versions of the seven dwarves...with each grumpy she produces looking more and more like a her husband...BUT catches the eye of local celebs...and terr's soon to be famous dwarves become even more popular than lawn gnomes!!!!

so much to do...get cracking!!!!!!!

Ark who also highly recomends bowling once a week with the girls...sounds tacky??? It's a lot cheaper than therapy...and sometimes way more effective..!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey ark -

I love all your suggestions - you really cheer me up whenever I read your posts! I think you could make a fortune as one of those "lifecoaches" - you know?

Terr - I just had something I remember about dealing with my H - maybe things started to turn around when i started "seeing" things "his" way - what happened was I read a post here, which had a link called "the jujitsu way to save your marriage - 5 things you can start doing RIGHT NOW" - it was based on the martial arts idea that the path to success is the path of least resistance - so if you resist something, you create MORE resistance.

With conflict between spouses it works like this - the WS is in a place where he thinks he doesn't want you, or what you have to offer his life, or anything that comes with you - he thinks he is right about this. He knows you don't agree - so he knows you want something different from what he wants. He is NEVER going to come back as long as he thinks you want something different from what he wants. So you agree with whatever he wants. He wants a divorce - you say, OK - but you make him take the steps to make it happen. You do nothing.

I think it was when I reached the point where I was able to say and do these things with my H that he stopped fighting me. We had several very difficult conversations, where I could feel very clearly that he was wanting out, wasn't going to say anything positive about us, wasn't looking for anything good, wasn't willing to try, was just waiting for me, in fact pushing me to LB into an angry outburst so he could have an excuse to storm out the door. But I didn't, it took all I had to stay quiet, and I was shaking all over inside, but all I would say is "I don't want anything that you don't want - if you want a divorce, then that is acceptable to me, because I don't want you to be with someone you are unhappy with. I want you to be happy and if that is what you want, then do it - but you start the process." The key sentence is: "I don't want anything that you don't want". Say it over and over again until you can say it for real.

I wanted my H to change - but I knew he was not going to, if he thought that was something I demanded in order for him to be with me. By reaching a place where I genuinely wanted him to be happy - even if that meant being away from me, it gave him the room to start coming towards me again, and being willing to change.

Since you are in plan B, and having as little contact with H as possible, if he tries to open any conversation, or even if he uses contact with you to accuse you of "antics" - you can use this opportunity to say to him - "but I am only doing what you wanted - I REALLY, REALLY just want you to be happy, and this is what you wanted. You don't want to be married to me anymore, or to live with me - you are a good father to our daughter and I have always admired you for that, but we have now lived apart for a year, and I have confidence that you take good care of her. You made it clear to me that you did not want me any longer to be a part of your personal life, so I have removed myself from your personal life. I am giving you what you wanted."

I think jillybean just posted a link to midlife.com, which I just read, and I found that very helpful - over and over again, the author stresses that "it is not YOUR fault - it is HIS problem, but all the way along, he is going to blame you, because HE can't be wrong - someone MUST be to blame for him feeling so bad - so it MUST be you. The most important thing for a woman who's man goes into a MLC is to not take the blame for his state of mind on to herself."

I hope this helps - I know when I changed my thinking about that, it started helping me to handle things better - it hurt less, and I felt more in control. I am lucky - my H, (so far), is still with me, and I think we are doing OK - but I do still feel we have a ways to go - his MLC could still not be over.

Take care and hugs to you - I like arks "book group" suggestion - great for meeting new friends - and I LOVE bowling, too - loads of fun!

LIR

Yes, john39 posted it - it's called Emotional Jujitsu - and I think the link is - www.stopyourdivorce.com/sample2.htm - I think I found this the most helpful advice - it doesn't constitue giving in or giving up - and there's no reason you should have to "muddy" your boundaries, either - keep your boundaries.

But whatever he says - agree with - like if he says "You know why I HAD to move out - because our relationship was terrible" - you agree "I agree that you felt our R was terrible and I don't want you to be unhappy - I agree that you felt you had to move out". This may sound hard, but it knocks him off his superior position, if you can do it. After all, what can he say?

Good luck.
LIR