http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=023809

ZM, yes, my DH and I are still together. Thanks to this forum and the things I learned on MB, my marriage is very strong. It has made a world of difference in my marriage.

bumping for ZachsMom. How are you doing? I just got back from a 2 day trip and don't see anything new. Are you doing ok?

Ok, it is 6 days into no contact with my H, and I feel myself going crazy....I was doing really well, getting through it, but I miss his friendship so much. I miss hearing how he is doing, how work was, telling how good of a week I had....

I know realistically, if I contact him I am jeopardizing myself and putting myself back out there. As well allowing him to continue to go through life just managing and not trying, because of course he still has a large part of me. But, I feel at a loss, because I do want that part of him too....

Am I subjecting myself to failure if I make contact with him and try to resume our friendship? Or is there a possibility this is what we need???

ZM,

You are doing great! Remember, you are supposed to miss him, that is part of Plan B. But the other side of it is that the spouse misses you. The worst thing you can do in Plan B is contact him! As it was before, he had you and could sit on the fence at the same time. He had no movivation to change anything. Wasn't it just as hard to watch him sitting on the fence, leaving you in limbo? While Plan B is certainly not easy, it is meant to be curative and in the long term alleviates the pain of being held hostage by a vacillating spouse.

However, if you contact him, it will completely negate the point of Plan B, which is to protect your feelings for the spouse and move a limboland spouse off the fence. If you contact him, he will know that you aren't serious about moving forward in your marriage and can continue to live on the fence.

I know its really tough, but I would suggest reaching out to some others here who are in Plan B. Some folks who are in Plan B are nowwhat and Mimi. Please go check in on their threads. Hang in there, ZM.

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=024329

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=023809

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>
Am I subjecting myself to failure if I make contact with him and try to resume our friendship? Or is there a possibility this is what we need???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">P.S. I would just point out that you don't want a friendship with him, you want a marriage, right? You will be subjecting yourself to failure if you contact him because you will just have the same thing you had before, a "friendship" instead of a marriage. Only now, if you go back on your Plan B, he won't take seriously any boundary you set.

ditto MelodyLane's last post

Get in touch with your inner warrior princess ... speak with her voice.

Take care of today.

Thanks ML and PB, I was just in reading the links and hoping that Now What, Kily, Mortarman would respond in here (also helps me get my H's perspective too).

MelodyLane, you have hung in there with and consistently coached me and supported me through this,,....Man you are tough!!! But you have been a tremendous help to me...I just wanted to say thanks...As well to all others who take time to slip a note in...

D (I am going back to the 2 links you sent)

So I finally finished Mimi's and Now What's threads and although their's are not moving in a positive direction right now, the advice from the other posters was helpful.....The discipline it takes is incredible....I KNOW I need to stick with this, I KNOW in my mind that we were not moving forward without this so this is the only alternative. I KNOW that he has had that support from me for so long there was no reason to make decisions, but I do think on occasion that if he doesn't have the positive me in his life I will be forgotten and he will realize that he doesn't want to be with me--BUT, on that note, if that is the case-he would come to that realization eventually any way, right?

I am talking in circles because I am torn by the positive effects this will have and the negative effects...I need to concentrate on the positive effects for me-plain and simple....Just have to keep my chin up!!

Hi ZM,

Hm..... my gut tells me he hasn't come clean with you and whether there is an OW right now or not, there's info you still don't know that is probably eating him up.

That in itself is a good reason to go to plan B. Why? Because until the truth is clearly out there, no M recovery is really possible. Many a false recovery is and appears to have been.

So until he can come clean, what do you think you should do for you and your family?

L.

Hi Orchid,

I have thought long and hard about whether there was someone else in the picture, because that would definitely explain the whole thing....It was only recently that I realized that I truly don't think there is any one else in the picture at all....He has pretty much turned into himself completely...

I can understand why people think that there is someone else because he is so willing to give up, but when him and I have sat down and talked he is deep self-punishment...I have a pretty good sense for things and have come to rely on my gut instincts-they haven't wronged me yet, and honestly I do feel confident that he has nothing to give anyone right now....But believe me, I will never say never...

Keeping with your thoughts though, should I do something about this??? Should I try to find out if there is someone else in the picture? If so, how do I do this?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
<strong>....Keeping with your thoughts though, should I do something about this??? Should I try to find out if there is someone else in the picture? If so, how do I do this?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, right now you need to identify your personal boundaries (you might find your tolerance level is different that what you thought) and then set him up as NC with clearly identifying acceptable topics of communication (mine was mail, money and child visitation). Then sit back and watch.

Whether there is an OW or not will eventually lose it's importance. What will surface is what you will identify with your personal boundaries. For me it was not having the OW in MY life. I centered my steps from there. Any progress up or down was reflected on how I was feeling about the OW being out of my life. It made gauging my recovery much easier and I had to let the WS' and M recovery take back seat. Behind the safety of myself and family. In our case it pissed the OW off big time. Ws gave me a hard time for a while but that too was temporary.

Hope this helps. Know that what you are going through it temporary.

L.

Hi Orchid,

This is what I sent him last Sunday:
"This is the hardest thing I have ever had to do, but the time has come. First, I want you to know this is in no way my way of punishing you, this is for me to learn move on from you as you have given every indication that you cannot and will not move forward with me, or even take baby steps.

I love you with all of my heart and have always made it clear that I want this marriage. I am sorry for the contributions that I made to this situation and for the times I have said things that I later regretted. Unfortunately, I cannot take them back.

We need to cut off all contact, as hard as this will be for me, I am losing my best friend, I love you too much to have only a best friend right now. These are the boundaries that I have to set out:
1) At work I will be cordial to you, but that is it, I will try to refrain from any other contact I.e lunches, coffee etc. E-mail communication will be best.
2) Your nights with Zach are Mon, Thurs, Fri and every other weekend.
a)Monday nights is your karate night, I will be there by 6:45pm to pick him up, or you can bring him home for 8pm (during the summer only).
b) Wednesday is my karate night, I would prefer if you are not there, but if you need to be, then please do not attempt to make small talk for the sake of show to other people.
c) Thurs and Fri are your nights, please have Zach dropped off at home by 8pm. If I have a work engagement, I will give you the option to keep Zach at your place, or will have a babysitter here for the time you are to bring him back.
3) Phone calls are limited to only absolute necessity, I would prefer to communicate via voice mail.

When school starts back up we can decide how to manage this.

Please remember that I love you, but you have chosen to punish your whole family for YOUR one mistake by choosing not to work on fixing this. I have gone through so much pain from your affair and loved you enough to work on our marriage. But you have not given me that opportunity. The added punishment of our separation, on top of the affair, is jeopardizing my feelings for you. You have given up and I need to stop trying to fix this for you. Keeping the contact that we have had is only allowing me to still be the biggest part in your life. I love you dearly, and until you decide that you want to really try and be in it for the long haul (good or bad), then we need to have this. Before we can resume contact, I need to see:
1) Marriage counselling
2) Complete honesty
3) Time for you and me-happy time.

I am sorry it has to be this way, but I cannot continue like this, hoping and praying, trying etc and feeling rejected continuously. You are and always will be the love of my life, and my door is always open, but you need to make some changes.

Love forever,
D"

Like I said, I do not feel someone else is in the picture, but....I will never ever be completely sure of anything again....I think I laid it out clearly, what do you think?

Your letter was fine. Except the ILY's will probably make it hard for him to respond.

The fact that he hasn't acknowledged it yet, tends to show that he is having issues with that. That c/b a sign that even if there isn't a real OW, there maybe one in his mind clogging up his powers of reason.

Why? Because if any normal person would read your letter, most w/b willing to walk through fire (difficult circumstances) to give you a response, their support and reassurance.

Foggy ones generally go 'duuuuh'.

JMHO,
L.

Hi Orchid,

He actually did respond and attempted contact with me this week, his response-via e-mail was:
This is the most painful thing I have ever read, but I do understand why you are doing this. Why do people think I am taking the cowardly way out? Why do you think that I'm putting punishment on everyone else for my one mistake. There is no way that I am looking for anykind of sympathy. But maybe I do deserve to punish MYSELF until I feel like I can forgive what I have done and am currently doing. If you think that I want to punish you and Zach, then there is something wrong. I'd be no good at home, its not deserved.
I can't handle this and am getting pretty tired of everyone telling me that counseling is the answer. I'm very glad that it worked for everyone else. There has to be a way for me to fix this...I just have to find the way that works for me.
I am not good at talking about this to anyone, nothing seems to make me feel like there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
I gave up due to the frustration, I did alot of things that I don't believe in, in the hopes that I was wrong.
You have no idea how sorry I am. I want to say for you not to do this, but I won't. Its not fair to keep you in lingo for another year or two, or even three.....
I can't work on our marriage until I work on myself......but now I seem to be at a standstill. I'm not looking for the "quick fix"....but a fix that would make me believe in it would help.
I really don't want you to respond, you have made your decision and I completely understand. I probably would do the same thing in your shoes.

sorry for what I have done to you...
love forever"

Not a hopeful response by any means....HE called me the day after my karate and said that he understands what I have asked for, could I at least say hi to him. I asked him not to judge me on my way of dealing with this and to respect my requests (a little more to it but that is the jist)....

By the way Orchid, what does "ILY's" stand for...Still getting all the acronyms...

ZM,
My response to you below will be similar to the ones in the past (same style) except it will be to review your H's comments. I am not an expert so please understand these are just my thoughts, ok?

ZM: He actually did respond and attempted contact with me this week, his response-via e-mail was:

Orchid: This is a good sign. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

ZM's H: 'This is the most painful thing I have ever read, but I do understand why you are doing this. Why do people think I am taking the cowardly way out? Why do you think that I'm putting punishment on everyone else for my one mistake.

Orchid: ZM, this is good. Pain is part of healing. It may hurt you to see him hurt but right now, he needs to hurt. This shows his nerves are still working. Even emotionally. It took my Ws a while to get to this state. Let him keep asking you questions. That way when you choose to respond, he will 'hear' you better. Not 100% nor will he agree but at least he will hear you. Small steps.

U can write down your answers but don't send them yet. Then revisit your response in a few days.

ZM's H: There is no way that I am looking for anykind of sympathy. But maybe I do deserve to punish MYSELF until I feel like I can forgive what I have done and am currently doing. If you think that I want to punish you and Zach, then there is something wrong. I'd be no good at home, its not deserved..

Orchid: ZM, He is looking to punish himself via you. When would that method ever be logical? He also is trying hard to get you to think badly of him. WS technique..... intentional or otherwise. The BS often reacts the same but it is a very very different problem. For now, lay low. Respond without sending. Know that this can change in a minute.

ZM's H: I can't handle this and am getting pretty tired of everyone telling me that counseling is the answer. I'm very glad that it worked for everyone else. There has to be a way for me to fix this...I just have to find the way that works for me. .

Orchid: Good to hear he is glad others are able to achieve postive results and that he knows there is a way to fix himself..... he admits he has to find it. Soo obvious to many yet soooo hidden for those in the fog. Again, don't respond yet.... write your thoughts and sit on it for a few days.


ZM's H:I am not good at talking about this to anyone, nothing seems to make me feel like there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
I gave up due to the frustration, I did alot of things that I don't believe in, in the hopes that I was wrong..

Orchid: Can't see light if one's eyes are closed. Very hard to negogiate one's path with your eye's closed. It is easy to be frustrated when you keep hitting your head or stumbling in the dark.

He admits he did a lot of things..... I think this is key.... do you know what those things are? His statement in hopes that he was wrong is very confusing. Again fog babble. It has some truth in it but not in the sense he is giving it to you. So right now just post your thoughts, revisit in a few days but don't try to make logic out of it. Not yet.

One technique I used was to let H hear himself or read his e-mails later. I had to first figure out how long it took him to digest what he said or I would say, etc. Once the timeframe was established (my WS took approx 10 - 14 days), then I would hold off until that timeframe past. Usually that meant the anger had subsided and a more normal conversation would result. He even was shocked when he saw what he wrote.

ZM's H:You have no idea how sorry I am. I want to say for you not to do this, but I won't. Its not fair to keep you in lingo for another year or two, or even three.......

Orchid: ZM, this may be a true statement. Treat it as such..... U don't know because 1 you are not him. 2. He knows more than he has shared so your conclusions are not based on the same things. 3. you can't read his mind.

#3 is important. Often the Ws tells the BS that the BS can't control the Ws nor know what the WS is really feeling and thinking. Reality though, most BS know more than they are being given credit for but the WS tactic is the throw the BS off course. It works.....for a while.

ZM's H:I can't work on our marriage until I work on myself......but now I seem to be at a standstill. I'm not looking for the "quick fix"....but a fix that would make me believe in it would help..

Orchid: ZM, this is another true statement. Note that these last 2 statements were done towards the end of the e-mail. Again clarity tends to sink to the bottom and takes a while to show up. IMHO, he needs time. What he does with that time may hurt you but he is finding he can't have his cake and eat it to. Other forces than yourself is telling him that.

He shows that he has lost faith by his statement: 'I'm not looking for the "quick fix"....but a fix that would make me believe in it would help.'

Let him figure it out. Just be in the background until he is able to accept your help.

ZM's H: I really don't want you to respond, you have made your decision and I completely understand. I probably would do the same thing in your shoes..

Orchid: In his mind, he is helping you. In a BS mind he is pushing you away. In reality, he is confused and needs time. It is good that he says he understands because this will help you go to plan B better.


ZM's H:sorry for what I have done to you...
love forever".

Orchid: Good closing words. Those WS sure know how to hit the heart. Why? Because your heart is big and his is crumpled up right now. Blood is not flowing well to the brain and this leaves his emotional state of mind in a starving state.

ZM: Not a hopeful response by any means....HE called me the day after my karate and said that he understands what I have asked for, could I at least say hi to him. I asked him not to judge me on my way of dealing with this and to respect my requests (a little more to it but that is the jist)
.

Orchid: IMHO, it is more hopeful than you think. Rest on this for a few days and revisit it about 5 days from now. In the meantime, work on what we discussed.

As for his request to say hi to him.....if it hurts don't. If you can, it might not be wise just right now. He has to see you say what you mean and mean what you say.

JMHO,
L.

oohh I forgot: ILY "I love you."

Hi Orchid, thank you so much...I feel a little more confident about his responses and will do just that-wait....

AS for his statement:
"I am not good at talking about this to anyone, nothing seems to make me feel like there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
I gave up due to the frustration, I did alot of things that I don't believe in, in the hopes that I was wrong.."

He has never been a believer in counselling or book therapy-he is very much a black and white person...This goes way back not just for this..His best friend died and he wanted to deal all on his own, you just deal with your own problems...his Mom and Dad are the same...But he went to 2 counselling sessions (got frustrated with the C) and last Saturday read 2 of my books that he just picked at occasionally (SAA and After the Affair...So basically he is saying that he tried stuff hoping that he was wrong about his assumptions...But I did state to him that I feel he went into expecting it not to work-so why would it....

Any way, I will sit tight for now, I do get lonely on the weekends when my son is with and try to do things with friends to keep my going...MB's has become my safe haven lately...
Thanks Orchid....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by zacharysmom:
Why do people think I am taking the cowardly way out? Why do you think that I'm putting punishment on everyone else for my one mistake. There is no way that I am looking for anykind of sympathy. But maybe I do deserve to punish MYSELF until I feel like I can forgive what I have done and am currently doing. If you think that I want to punish you and Zach, then there is something wrong. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What is he "currently doing?" And why would he be concerned with forgiving "HIMSELF" when you and your son are his victims? Forgiveness of himself should be secondary and should be a result of making AMENDS to his victims. He refuses to make amends and chooses indtead to punish them further.

The thing with him, ZM, is that his words do not match his actions. And a person should always be judged by their actions. His words are the typical, nonsensical fog-ese that we see around here.

This is just food for thought.

..He has never been a believer in counselling or book therapy-he is very much a black and white person...This goes way back not just for this..His best friend died and he wanted to deal all on his own, you just deal with your own problems...his Mom and Dad are the same...But he went to 2 counselling sessions (got frustrated with the C) and last Saturday read 2 of my books that he just picked at occasionally (SAA and After the Affair...So basically he is saying that he tried stuff hoping that he was wrong about his assumptions...But I did state to him that I feel he went into expecting it not to work-so why would it....

Orchid: Hm.... not sure where why what what I thought I type went.... but I will try again.... my allergies acted up and I took some medicine, then slept for what should have been only a few minutes turned into a few hours.

Anyway, as for your H not wanting to go to counseling. Well some don't like it but eventually go. That's what happened in my situation. Stubborn pride, whatever kept my H away but later he volunteered to go himself and even talked to Steve one time.

Don't let fog babble type talk drag you down. If they could only hear themselves, they might see how foolish they sound.

The point I would play back to someone like your H, is if he knows enough to know the counselors are not worth the effort, then what better solution can he offer? If he can't then maybe he doesn't have a better solution than a good MC or the books. Challenge him to find a better way himself.....but one that makes U feel safe. Redirect his mission. Then maybe he will consider it. It is a bit of a sales techique.


..Any way, I will sit tight for now, I do get lonely on the weekends when my son is with and try to do things with friends to keep my going...MB's has become my safe haven lately...
.

Orchid: Good. Remember it is only for a little while. I understand about the loneliness but hopefully he will be lonely too. LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

MB has been a shelter in this storm for me many a times.

take care,
L.

<small>[ July 19, 2003, 09:54 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>