So my H left town without telling me last week, either Wed. or Thurs. Based on my spywork,

- I know he's not travelling with his family,
- I know that his one female friend (the one who was our mutual friend until I cut off contact with her) is still in town,
- I know that the other female friend that he took camping with him and his brothers in June seems to be out of town (her car isn't at her apt. and I'm betting they hid it in the garage at his house)
- I know that he stopped his newspaper delivery indefinitely so he intends to be away for a WHILE

In all of our contact leading up to last week, he never bothered to let me know he was going away. He told me not to wait around for him this summer and to travel if I wanted to, but he never told me he was going away.

I am obviously none too happy about his lack of honesty and his continued feeling of entitlement to privacy. (Especially after he's accused me of a lack of honesty and openess, hypocrite!) And I am beginning to think his ambivalence about our marriage is really him trying to choose between me and this female "friend" b/c he knows that if we remain married, I refuse to be her friend, and expect him to cut off contact with her.

Why I'm posting this isn't for "Oh Jen that's too bad" replies. Or "Oh Jen, just worry about you and not him, and don't bother calling him." I am going to call him. That is decided. What I'm looking for is help with what questions I should ask him when I call him on his cell phone later today. I figure I'll call him to let him know that I'm going out of town on Friday for about a week (showing him the courtesy I would've liked him to show me), and then ask him something about how he's enjoying his holiday, but I want to get at the whole WHERE ARE YOU, AND WITH WHO issue without coming across as a psycho jealous wife, so he and his "friend" will just laugh at me together and become even closer (Oh that Jen is nuts, you should leave her...blah blah blah).

So Orchid, Pep, and any others good at "babble" and good 180 behaviour, any suggestions for how to word my questions to him on the phone

a) if he answers?
b) if I have to leave a voice mail?

Honestly, if I don't hear back from him sometime before tomorrow afternoon, I'm going to see my MIL or SIL to ask directly if he's involved in a romantic relationship with this "friend" and he just isn't letting on to me. I think they respect me enough to tell me the truth so I don't waste my time pining for a man who's actually having an affair of his own (even though he thinks separated = not really married = entitled to date others).

Ideas?

Jen

Hi Jen.

How about the following:

"I called you up to ask you if you wanted to have sex with me, but oh well I'm going to have to find another way to satisfy my sexual needs. Have a fun summer, and say hello to your biatch for me"(click!).

I know you won't do it but it sure is fun entertaining what his reaction would be to it, especially after you said it and hung up on him.

You're too funny TMCM!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What's even funnier is the fact that he has frequently referred to his female friends as his "biaches"!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Jen

Jen:

"What I'm looking for is help with what questions I should ask him when I call him on his cell phone later today. "

How about: "How's your trip? I may not see you when you get back, as I have a pilgrimage 2 Tibet planned. I should be home in a couple of years."

Or quote something from the Old Testament. Real fire and brimstone stuff! Dogs and cats living 2gether! Mass Hysteria!

Well, maybe not.
-2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dogs and cats living 2gether! Mass Hysteria!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> You scaring me man.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dogs and cats living 2gether! Mass Hysteria! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So if she is his biatch, she must be the dog, and that make him the [censored], er cat? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Please don't ask for biblical references 2long....I'm done with that thread, it's taken on a life of it's own!!

While I genuinely appreciate the humour (it keeps me from getting angry that is for sure!), has anyone got a serious suggestion? Perdy puhlease? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Jen

Okay Jen.

How's this? Don't babble, in reverse or directly (I think the experts would even agree that reverse babble is most effective when it's in response 2 babble). Find out who Jen is, and be Jen. Try 2 let go of the need 2 get some kind of reaction out of your H.

-2long

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>

I know I know I know about the fact that I "should" focus on Jen, and finding out who Jen is, and being Jen....but I want to confirm what H is up to and with who. I don't see what's unhealthy about that.

Maybe I ought to just call him and ask whatever pops into my head rather then bugging you folks for semi-objective advice.

Jen

There, done I called, got his voice mail, and left this message:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just wanted to call and let you know that I am heading out of town on Friday for a while, and if you want to get in touch with me to call me on my cell phone.

It would seem that you have left town and gone on vacation without letting me know so I hope you both have a good time wherever you are and whatever you are doing. Give me a call sometime if you want to chat. I still love you. Bye. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">'Tis done, now we wait and see if he cares enough to call me back. I am trying to make myself have enough patience to wait to contact my MIL or SIL until tomorrow.

Jen

Jen
just call and ask him what you want to know,
don't beat around the bush. write down what you want to know and stick to it..list it 1 2 3 4 5
and then write it down.

why are you afraid to communicate with him?
don't argue with him..stick to the questions.
at hand..then I am sure he will gladly tell you.

but do you really want to know?
your beoming a stalker, looking where he goes, checking out..

I thought you were getting divorced>?
I figured he would make you feel guilty for how you did the divorce papers so he can still have his cake and eat it too..

mine did this way..they are not accountable to us. tell us NOT TO WAIT for them..don't sit by the phone..and they mean that..they will not contact..because when they say that...it is cause they have other plans and it is catch me find me if you can...don't bother looking for him..

but please get on with your life..he is playing with you.

maybe you need to forget about him he is going to drive you crazy.
he is having fun right now.
and making you hurt..

try some different things..go to the library and get the book called "THE DANCE OF ANGER" it talks about this stuff..you need to do something different..don't be so predictable..stop chasing or calling him..or going to get something just so you can check on him..it's not really any of your business right now..and your not his business either..separate lives..for awhile..get busy..
hugs...I hate to see you hurting and doing this to you..I did it for years..get the book..it is summer there are lots of fairs to go to..go brouse....get some books some fun stuff to read..enjoy the summer..get to know Jen...love ya sweetie..

it is like dancing..you stop chasing and looking for him..he will come around to see..what happened to Jen..now get planning don't be around awhile..go have fun..don't ask about him..either..
let him be...is all..let God...have him.. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
go to an alanon meeting..just one and see..you will learn..how to do this..

Why am I afraid to communicate with him?

1. He invariably always turns things around to attack me and make me feel rotten
2. I don't want to "LB"
3. I don't want to appear as a vindictive and jealous woman so he can tell his GF that's what I'm like and drive them closer together
4. I don't want to make him angry enough that he'll file for Dv (not a real fear, I don't think he has the balls to do it)
5. I don't want to make him angry enough that he'll badmouth me to other people (family, friends, coworkers)
6. He'll make me feel guilty attacking him with questions when I'm the one that originally cheated
on him
7. He'll make me feel guilty for being upset with him for going away without telling me, saying he needs this b/c he needs to get over his dad's death, etc.
8. I am afraid he'll make me so upset on the phone I'll say the wrong thing, that he can throw back in my face for a long time to come
9. He will hang up on me if I ask him too many questions that he doesn't like!!!

(As far as 6 and 7 above go, I know I'll only feel guilty if I let him make me feel that way, but it's hard to stop it from happening.)

I like the idea of making a list of specific questions in case he does call back. Then I can at least be at peace with myself for TRYING to ask even if he refuses to answer. I'm going to write some down right now.

Jen

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 02:24 PM: Message edited by: Jen Brown ]</small>

Jen,
Don't call him at all.

SC - why???

I already DID call him, what I said to him on his voice mail you see above.

I am thinking of calling him again and leaving a message more like this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You know what John? I am not going to tip-toe around you. I need some answers here. All the evidence points to you having gone on vacation with Carolyn. I need to know if I am right or wrong, and I need to know what the nature of your relationship with her is. If you want to answer these questions for me yourself, call me back sometime before tomorrow. If you want me to go to your family to find out the answers, don’t call me back. Whether you believe it or not, we are still married in God's eyes and it is wrong for you to be romantically involved with another woman. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This way he gets a chance to explain himself if he so chooses, if not, I am going to find my answers elsewhere.

Jen

Right now I am stuck deciding whether to

a) hope he catches the "both of you" phrase in the middle of my original message, and calls me back (and avoid further calls, worry more about how I appear, how I come across, and try to look classy and non-jealous, non-vengeful, etc. so he can't say much about me in a negative way)

b) put my fears aside and call him and leave him a more direct message, with the most important questions included (and potentially upset him, and face the wrath of his upset, and also potentially get a call from him and have a blunt and honest and open conversation, without avoiding things)

If there's one thing I've learned in the past year, it's to think before I act, so I won't do anything else for a few hours at least.

If anyone would like to offer reasons why option a or b is better, let me know.

Jen

Jen,
he is letting you know how he feels by not calling you and not telling you anything.

why do you keep torturing yourself by calling him?

you are afraid to talk to him, because he yells at you, but you still call him to hear his voice.

you
NEED to go to an alonon meeting to see what it is..you are addicted to him..you need to hear his voice, you need to know what he is doing, even if it hurts you. if he says he is with the other women it will cause you to feel bad..you feel bad already not knowing.

it doesn't matter to him if it is wrong. it is not wrong to him..it is wrong to you..but he does not see it that way..you cannot get him to see it that way, it would be up to God to convict him of that..not you..till he hears God and God gets hold of him it won't work because he is spiritually deaf and blind to anything right..anything of Gods he will not see or hear..till it is his time..let go let GOD do it..
your not God..let go of him..your driving him further away from you..you are obsessed.

are you on any meds for depression? get one that works on obsessiveness because you are getting out of control with this thing..

I was doing what your doing and it is not good for you or him..later you will see what your doing but for now you are letting your feelings make you do crazy things because he has done crazy making to you..STOP now...ok..please...
get hold of yourself..go take a bath..and pray
focus on God..pray take a sabatical for you.
see what God wants you to do..just you...He will tell you..let John do what John wants to do, I don't care if he wants to wallow in doggie poop
let him alone..your not his mommy..he doesn't want a wife right now..he wants to hurt you..because you hurt him..just let him go through his stupid temper tantrum and wait..just wait no more running after to see what he is doing..let it go..hugs and things will turn out how God wants in the end..but give it up.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />
if you do talk to him..tell him...I GIVE UP...goodbye..then the ball is in his court don't call him..nada nothing

Jen
seeing as your not going to give up till you do know.

Call his mother do not call him.

call her and ask her..but know that is called triangleing and she will tell him what you say..so don't be desperate when you talk to her.
keep it matter of fact..like.

but please don't call him anymore..he is probably letting her hear your calls..too he might just use it on speaker..don't do that..ok??

but if you really want to know do you think he tells them he is taking another women with him?

maybe he doesn't have another one with him..
maybe you won't ever trust each other again.
perhaps thats going to be a big problem.

what if you heard no one was with him
would you beleive that?

well would you? or would you still think he has another woman with him?

hugs..think about it..before you call anyone..
EarthAngel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Don't call.

I was at an Al-anon meeting Friday. One of the speakers said, "Feel free to take my advice. I'm not using it right now."

Don't call. Control yourself, not him.

P <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> ep

Jen,
I agree with Pepperband and Spacecase. Honey, you are freaking out a little bit right now. You really need an Al-anon meeting or something. You sound WAY too desperate and co-dependent and all those other nasty things that we all have gotten caught up in from time to time. You know I am forward with you because I care about you- and you are losing yourself WAY too much in all of this. The more desperate you are to cling to him, the more he will run. What are you holding onto? Why do you want to know so bad? Why are you driving YOURSELF so crazy while he does what he wants? I told you once and I will tell you again- forget about him right now - as hard as that is- and get some help for you. You truly sound like you are drowning. I will pray for you.
Big hugs to you.

<small>[ July 15, 2003, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: adgirl48 ]</small>

Jen, I'll tell you why you shouldn't call him, and I'm going to use your own reasons for it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jen Brown:
<strong>Why am I afraid to communicate with him?

1. He invariably always turns things around to attack me and make me feel rotten</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which is exactly what he feels you are doing to him by hounding him and accusing him of an A, and demanding, and...
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2. I don't want to "LB"</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By definition, an LB is what your spuse considers to be an LB, right? You're LBing by calling him, by being demanding, by being desperate, needy, by going to his family,...
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3. I don't want to appear as a vindictive and jealous woman so he can tell his GF that's what I'm like and drive them closer together</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are being vindictive, in his eyes, by going to his family, you are being jealous by hounding him about who he's with, and about not seeing them anymore...
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">4. I don't want to make him angry enough that he'll file for Dv (not a real fear, I don't think he has the balls to do it)
5. I don't want to make him angry enough that he'll badmouth me to other people (family, friends, coworkers)
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You ARE making him angry by doing all these thing's you're doing.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">6. He'll make me feel guilty attacking him with questions when I'm the one that originally cheated
on him</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen, nobody "makes you" feel anything. You feel what you feel regardless. And you DO feel guilty for doing what you did, don't you? Why blame him for how you feel?
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">7. He'll make me feel guilty for being upset with him for going away without telling me, saying he needs this b/c he needs to get over his dad's death, etc.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why would he feel like he needs to tell you what he's doing? You filed for divorce, didn't you? And even if you hadn't, you don't live together, you're separated.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">8. I am afraid he'll make me so upset on the phone I'll say the wrong thing, that he can throw back in my face for a long time to come</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He won't "make you" upset; you ARE upset regardless of what he does or says. And you will be until he does and says what YOU WANT him to say and do.
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">9. He will hang up on me if I ask him too many questions that he doesn't like!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wouldn't you do the same?

Jen; Please understand that I am not trying to hurt, blame, or otherwise harm you in any way. I am merely pointing out some of the things from what COULD be his perspective. I am not saying he's right or wrong to have this possible perspective, much less am I defending him (you know how I feel about that) but regardless, what matters is what IS. Not what we'd like, or wish for, or want, or feel is fair or right...we only get what actually IS. And right now, that is what your husband IS. And that will NOT change because you want it to, wish for it, desire it, or because that is what would be right and just. That will change when HE decides to change it, IF he decides to change it. And however wrong it may seem to you, however injust, cruel and unfair, perhaps his words were sincere when he said you set this back 6 months by filing for divorce...but he could just as easily have said that it was for demanding all this from him when he's not ready for it.

I'm screwed. If I do contact my H or his mom to find out the whole truth, it's bad. If I don't find out, I go nuts, and that's bad. Even if I try to keep busy doing other things, I will still want to know, and it will still tug away at my consciousness.

I went three days without a single tear, and here I am back at square one, in tears and hurting like crazy.

I'll be brutally honest, I don't want to go to alanon. A public meeting like that isn't for me.

Howcome so many people on MB feel entitled to know where their WS is, what they're doing and who they're with, and b/c I was dumb enough to move out and separate from my H (at his request), I am not entitled to know these things? Or perhaps even I shouldn't even want to know these things?

I know after doing those personality tests online that it's simply part of my personality that I need to be able to DO something, it's part of my need for CONTROL, it makes me feel worthwhile to be accomplishing something, and it makes me feel less than completely worthwhile as a person if I have to sit by and try to occupy myself and forget about my H altogether. I was good at that for long stretches here and there when I was busy enough to not think about him, but I do have time on my hands now, c'est la vie, I can't shut it out of my head.

I guess I should stop asking people for help. I never like the advice I get (look after you Jen, stop focussing on your H, let go and let God, etc), because, even if it is good advice and it's what's best for me, following it doesn't change anything.

I want and need to know if my H has gone away with another woman. Why is that so wrong?? Forgive me if I don't listen very well and this question has already been answered.

Jen <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />