</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong>TMD:
"I was a little surprised at my own tender feelings even after all that's happened when I read your posts."
--Understood
"Honesty, maybe. But honesty and truthfulness aren't the same thing. You're being honest with us about how you feel. Now, be honest with your W. Also, be truthful with your W (tell her what's happened, everything). Also, don't be secretive."
I've told her everything. There are no unknowns. That's why she won’t have anything to do with me. I don't blame her either.
" You have a right to privacy, but privacy isn't harmful to those around you, secrecy is. You are keeping secrets from your family, aren't you?"
Nope. I told my W about the affair shortly after it's inception. Cruel but true.
" Don't forget that not revealing secrets is lying by omission."
Understood
"My W did the same thing. Who was "wrong"? We both were, by not being forthcoming with each other. "
The only thing I wasn't forthcoming about was my unhappiness. I told her what I was missing time and again to no avail.
"- So did I try to communicate my concerns? Yes.
- Is communication important? Yes.
- Was it effective? No."
"Why? Because this is the root of our problems, 2. Behind most As, I would suggest, 2. "
That was my point -thank you.
"If you truly had given up, why did you stay M'd? My W still says "I never wanted 2 be M'd"."
I answered THAT question for Pep. scroll up..
" "---------- Now be careful here. I was not seeking anything per se. There has always been happiness attached to thoughts of the OW."
Did you share these with your W?"
To what end? My wife would not have married me nor would enyone else if I told them I still loved the OW. Is it fair to live alone because you love someone and can't make it go away?
"And if not, why did you M your W and not the OW?"
I skimmed over that in my original post. I wasn't so smart on that front at the age of 20. I managed to miss out on that opportunity and acquiesced to her and the man who is her H.
""My self-respect is in tact."
Mine wouldn't be. "
You're not me.
""My reputation is in tact."
Mine wouldn't be. "
You're not me.
""My personal moral code is shattered."
Mine sure would be, 2."
So we're not entirely dichotomous. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
""That’s the part that messes me up physically right now. I’m getting better at it though."
How are you doing so? By rationalization, or by being honest and truthful with those you have a responsibility 2ward."
Just being me. I have been painfully honest about this thing. I carried out the A with my W in the know. It was no parade. I just told her it was happening. It's getting easier because we're at least talking for the first time in years... and to some extent communicating more efficiently.
"And I do NOT mean the OW. You have more of a responsibility 2 her H than you do her."
Yeah - you know... I see your perspective on that one. But I respectfully disagree. I owe him nothing. He has received the now proverbial shock-n-awe and has put on the garment of repentance for his own reprehensible behavior. It's HIS responsibility to heal himself and then their relationship if that is his desire. All I can do is stand aside and I've done that out of love for the OW, not for him.
I'm wondering if you're picturing me as RatMeat? Wow. This must be very odd for you. I want you to continue this. Though the similarities are few from a cause and effect perspective, I think your insight could be invaluable from the OW's H role. How intriguing!
"Neither of us has been duped into thinking that this was going to make us happy in our present relationships. That’s ludicrous! We both knew where this was going. And we found bittersweet moments in our short time together when tears would come because we KNEW we couldn’t be together. To suggest that this A has been rationalized by the OW and Myself as an attempt to heal our respective marriages, or furthermore, to determine ultimately that we married the wrong individuals is a two-dimensional thought process. It’s something out of a dime store novel. I wish this were that easy."
Un42nately, it IS out of a dime store novel. Probably a whole buttload of them, in fact! "
Laughing
" Also, If we were trying to make each other happy in an adulterous relationship, I’d like to know how one accomplishes that. I have no illusions in that regard and never have. I simply know that I never stopped loving this woman and that being near her brought contentedness if only for a time."
You're contradicting yourself here. Tell me how "contentedness" differs from "happiness" besides by degree? And so what?"
Semantics... to me they are mutually exclusive.
"The OW had been going to Christian counselors on and off for years; with and without her H. It was mostly without him as he would participate only to appease."
Did he know about your A this whole time?"
This whole time? hmmn. The comment above is pre - A on the timeline. They have been in counseling for years. The A began only a few months ago.
" Or was it a secret?"
No - OW told H early on as well.
"The affair has always been bitter-sweet."
They almost always are.
"NOW TAKE NOTE HERE. The reality on this point is that we both saw the line in the sand. We both knew plenty of people in our respective lives that had done this thing. We both had seen, up close and personal, the turmoil created by this kind of decision. We both had shaken our heads at the stupidity and short sightedness of such a decision. We both had plenty of opportunities in our respective lives to have A’s. We both brushed them off as silly advances and stayed true. Until we saw each other again… it all went out the window and we both willingly stepped over the line."
So, you're human. Are you willing/interested in a little growth now? I hope so."
Well I'm here. That's a start.
"This is that two-dimensional thinking again that paints the lot of adulterers with one broad stroke of the brush. This might be the part that 2Long sees as irrational thought on my part. Frankly – I have always cringed at the use of blanket theories and forced myself to be aware of the myriad influences in the real world that make each life experience unique."
"We all say this. In truth, we all are unique, and As are all unique si2ations. But at the same time, "methods" like those used here at Marriage Builders WORK precisely because the patterns of behavior pervade every one of these "unique" As between individuals. Das da fak, Jak."
Yes. Understood. BUT... the patterns and the individuality are NOT mutually exclusive! So broad based application of these patterns has the propensity toward irresponsibility.
""So the story being told in this thread is one particular story or even a blending VIA the law of averages. But it is not MY story."
No it isn't. But yes it is."
*Laughing* - Understood.
""You see – I got married because I loved the woman who became my W. I still do. It’s not that she was the wrong person or the right person. I just loved her and wanted to spend the rest of my life with her. So I popped the question. The OW was out of reach and was available only as a memory. I moved on. That’s a few pages in to MY story. But I was happy once in this marriage of mine. Important “little things” went away early on and were deemed foolish and immature. The progression of these losses over time turned the snowball into a mountain and I simply gave up trying one day. There is my failure."
Not unique at all. In fact, quite the opposite. You sound like my W."
Then I'm sorry for her because if she is so much like me, then you hurt her badly and continuously.. well before she ever thought of the act that hurt you so deeply.
"THEN is when I should have sought counseling. Instead, I gave up. So I was not the cause of our unhappiness."
No, but you are the "cause" of your own unhappiness. I differe with MB on this one. Happiness is your responsibility, not your W's, not the OW's. Yours. You *chose* 2 be unhappy, though you will likely vehemently disagree with me (I know I did when I was told the same thing, but it's true). You chose, because you didn't want 2 be responsible and simply say NO 2 the OW, out of love and respect for HER and the life she was in."
I agree with you on this.
"I was the one who worked and worked to find the right way to deposit the love units. Was I perfect during those 8 or more years of trying? NO. Who is? But I know, unequivocally, I worked hard for my marriage and my family."
Not hard enough. And don't feel like I'm picking on you. My W did the same thing you did, but for 4 years longer. She is responsible for not trying hard enough, and I'm responsible for reacting out of hurt rather than responding out of compassion. All through this, she never told me she WAS having an A, so I didn't have enough info. "
Sorry - That's not flying. If she told you what was wrong, you had enough information to adjust your behavior. You chose not to adjust. The fact that she loves you is the important piece of this. If that love is returned, then the bank is full and there is no room in her heart for the OM and as such, the OM is a non-issue. Why? Because he never became the OM to begin with!
"Unrequited adoration is short lived and borders on abuse. Nonetheless; I was deliberate to a fault."
Not true. This is rationalized nonsense. Believe me, I've seen it. And it goes both ways. I was just as lousy at adoring my W during her A as she was me."
OK - have to make a distinction here again. That pesky "unique" word again. There was no A or even thought of one while we were going through what you describe above.
"But until the tie can end, there's no way you and your W can truly adore each other the way you each deserve. And another thing that I disagree with MB about: Your "unrequited adoration" of your W is "conditional love." If you loved her without conditions, you would not have any time limit on her responding in kind. But abuse? Sheez! You shucked your responsibility 2 be a H and justify it with that label?"
Exactly what I would expect my wife to say. Funny how this is working here. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
"It makes some very simple points, but yet again is fraught with broad stroked assumptions. Too cookie cutter for my use. But the thought was appreciated."
Try 2 look beyond the generalizations and recognize the patterns that we all follow 2 a degree. I know you can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> "
been there bought the T-shirt.
regards,
-ol' 2long</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank you so much 2Long. This is more than I could have ever hoped for.
-TMD
